Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: PDY on August 01, 2017, 10:11:05 AM

Title: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: PDY on August 01, 2017, 10:11:05 AM
Hi guys,

I brewed the below the other day, looking for a very simple, light, summery beer. Its delicious, but there's something missing. I think it just needs a bit more flavour, something to lift it a bit, maybe more on the nose?

Thought I'd ask you guys what you thought and how you'd improve it.

Batch size: 18.5 gallons
23.35lb - Pilsner
4.4lb - Munich
1.3lb Carapils

Mash at 149 for 60

1oz Nugget - 60
1oz Cascade - 20
0.5oz Cascade - 0

US05 yeast
OG 1.048
FG 1.011
ABV 4.9%

Thanks!
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: mainebrewer on August 01, 2017, 10:47:14 AM
The amount of hops seems low for a 18.5 gal batch.
For a similar beer, I plan for 25-30 IBU with a similar schedule.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: ethinson on August 01, 2017, 11:56:19 AM
I agree that the hops are pretty low.  What was your target IBU? I'm assuming this is something in the pilsner type genre looking at the grain bill, so you don't want to go overboard on hops, but I use more than that for a 3 gallon batch (granted, those are IPAs). 

Also, you might want to add just a small amount of simple sugar to drop the FG.  1.011 is pretty good, but if you could dry it out just a touch more (say, 1.007) that would add some crispness to it and add to that thirst quenching quality you're looking for.  American Lager runs from 1.004-1.010.  Cream Ale 1.006-1.012.  You're in the neighborhood for sure, but to my taste a little dryer would be better.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: Westley on August 01, 2017, 12:36:12 PM
Hi guys,

I brewed the below the other day, looking for a very simple, light, summery beer. Its delicious, but there's something missing. I think it just needs a bit more flavour, something to lift it a bit, maybe more on the nose?

Thought I'd ask you guys what you thought and how you'd improve it.

Batch size: 18.5 gallons
23.35lb - Pilsner
4.4lb - Munich
1.3lb Carapils

Mash at 149 for 60

1oz Nugget - 60
1oz Cascade - 20
0.5oz Cascade - 0

US05 yeast
OG 1.048
FG 1.011
ABV 4.9%

Thanks!

I would personally tweak it as follows, and see if you get what you're looking for.

Batch size: 18.5 gallons
20.35lb - Pilsner
7.4lb - Munich
1.3lb Carapils

Mash at 149 for 60

2oz Saaz - 60
2oz Amarillo - 20
1oz Amarillo - 0
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 01, 2017, 01:11:55 PM
A more esters yeast might help. If you like dry yeast try BRY-97, but it is a slow starter, so don't be alarmed. I might do a smaller batch with it before committing to 18 gallons.

More hops as others have said.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: PDY on August 01, 2017, 01:52:08 PM
Thanks all, really helpful.

This one comes in at about 18 IBUs. I was trying to avoid ultra-hoppy, as i didnt want an IPA which is why i kept it low, but you're right i probably should use more. Would you suggest adding at the 20min or 0 mark rather than increasing the Nugget amount?

Yep definitely going for dry, so good shout on the sugar addition. Also, have never tried anything with Saaz or Amarillo so sounds like a good excuse to.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: metron-brewer on August 01, 2017, 04:49:14 PM
May want to look at mash pH as well as water profile. I think I've read somewhere that too high pH can lead to "flabby" tasting beer. Also a bit more sulfate can crisp it up and pop the hops.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: charles1968 on August 01, 2017, 07:22:16 PM
18 IBU would be a bit low for me, but that's personal preference. If you want more on the nose, I would suggest adding dry hops. Cascade dry hops on their own can be disappointingly subtle. I would try Lemon drop, which is very similar to Cascade but brighter and more floral/tropical. If you want to avoid dry hops, increase the flameout addition.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: brewinhard on August 01, 2017, 10:47:18 PM
Drop the carapils and sub it with German Carahell. It is a light (10L) german cara malt and provides quite a bit of flavor and body enhancers.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: Westley on August 02, 2017, 12:21:36 PM
Thanks all, really helpful.

This one comes in at about 18 IBUs. I was trying to avoid ultra-hoppy, as i didnt want an IPA which is why i kept it low, but you're right i probably should use more. Would you suggest adding at the 20min or 0 mark rather than increasing the Nugget amount?

Yep definitely going for dry, so good shout on the sugar addition. Also, have never tried anything with Saaz or Amarillo so sounds like a good excuse to.

I suggested the Saaz and Amarillo because they are flowery and with citrus notes, but are not at all overpowering. Every time before I decide to use a hop in a beer I taste some of it to see exactly what I'm putting in my beer. While I've had some hops that make me pucker, and I taste for hours afterward, the Amarillo was extremely flavorful and pleasant, the saaz was similar but with slightly more spice and earthy tones. Even my friend who doesn't like IPAs or hop flavor in general liked the Amarillo.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: MrPowers on August 02, 2017, 03:53:17 PM
Drop the carapils and sub it with German Carahell. It is a light (10L) german cara malt and provides quite a bit of flavor and body enhancers.

I second this. I quit using carapils completely, I found it never added much over plain base malt. However Carahell is something special and will definitely help fill out a lighter beer.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 02, 2017, 04:09:02 PM
Drop the carapils and sub it with German Carahell. It is a light (10L) german cara malt and provides quite a bit of flavor and body enhancers.

I second this. I quit using carapils completely, I found it never added much over plain base malt. However Carahell is something special and will definitely help fill out a lighter beer.


+2.  Carahell is an excellent malt. Carapils, not so much IMO.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: denny on August 02, 2017, 04:14:12 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: PDY on August 02, 2017, 09:47:38 PM
Yeah I got into the habit of mashing at a lowish temp, then adding Carapils for body. Not tried Carahell but will check it out.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 02, 2017, 10:02:01 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.


I don't hate it, Denny. I don't buy the foam positive thing, though. I think it might be foam negative, or at very least doesn't help foam - just my take. As for body, it can be a help in some beers. I just don't use it much any more.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 02, 2017, 10:57:51 PM
It's actually been proven carapils is foam negative.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 02, 2017, 11:52:40 PM
It's actually been proven carapils is foam negative.


Not surprised. I read something to that effect and couldn't  remember the source. Matches my experience.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 03, 2017, 12:54:42 AM
It's actually been proven carapils is foam negative.


Not surprised. I read something to that effect and couldn't  remember the source. Matches my experience.

Bamforth, actually.  There is a slide from a presentation floating around here somewhere. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 03, 2017, 02:23:36 AM
Wan't that also including most cara/crystal malts?
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: denny on August 03, 2017, 03:06:52 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.


I don't hate it, Denny. I don't buy the foam positive thing, though. I think it might be foam negative, or at very least doesn't help foam - just my take. As for body, it can be a help in some beers. I just don't use it much any more.

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 03, 2017, 03:19:05 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.


I don't hate it, Denny. I don't buy the foam positive thing, though. I think it might be foam negative, or at very least doesn't help foam - just my take. As for body, it can be a help in some beers. I just don't use it much any more.

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.


Yep, gotcha.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 03, 2017, 03:26:16 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.


I don't hate it, Denny. I don't buy the foam positive thing, though. I think it might be foam negative, or at very least doesn't help foam - just my take. As for body, it can be a help in some beers. I just don't use it much any more.

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.

Not that I am saying that isn't a good article, but that article is 12 years old now..Many things are known/tested/different.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: denny on August 03, 2017, 04:11:25 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.


I don't hate it, Denny. I don't buy the foam positive thing, though. I think it might be foam negative, or at very least doesn't help foam - just my take. As for body, it can be a help in some beers. I just don't use it much any more.

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.

Not that I am saying that isn't a good article, but that article is 12 years old now..Many things are known/tested/different.

Such as?
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 03, 2017, 04:54:02 PM
OTOH, I still find a place for carapils sometimes.


I don't hate it, Denny. I don't buy the foam positive thing, though. I think it might be foam negative, or at very least doesn't help foam - just my take. As for body, it can be a help in some beers. I just don't use it much any more.

As detailed in this article (http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques), if you don't have foam problems, adding foam positive elements won't help.  Of if you have certain foam issues (not that you do), adding foam positive elements won't help.  I long ago concluded from my experience that wheat and carapils do nothing for foam, at least in the ways homebrewers usually think of.  I use carapils to add body if needed.

Not that I am saying that isn't a good article, but that article is 12 years old now..Many things are known/tested/different.

Such as?

Have some here:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


A simple search in my copy of Kunze, yielded like 100 results.

Umm..

Malts, and malting
mashing and mash rests
acidiciation of mash
hops
spunding

Are some that came quickly to mind.

There is a silver bullet to good foam as well.  ;)
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: Stevie on August 03, 2017, 05:13:06 PM
The only low oxygen technique I have adopted is a gentle boil. My foam is great.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 03, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
Right so I got cut off before expounding. The silver bullet to worldly foam according to me.

Use quality malts, nothing special needed (carapils, carafoam, chit malt, etc)
Minimize splashing and foaming at all points in the brewing process
Step mash, DO NOT use the 156 rest, I swear thats a made up rest. Use 162-3 for at least 20 minutes (I do 30)
Aciduate your mash to between 5.2-5.4
Get clear mash and post boil wort
Use a soft boil
Have a good healthy fermentation with minimal lag (try to get that under 8hrs)
Spund, and or naturally carbonate the beer. Active yeast under pressure create gylcerol, which is very foam positive.

You do all of that and the foam will be marvelous, every time.

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19875221_949319471877320_3182336166522841583_n.jpg?oh=27c0e6699ef4de6d845d70fdd4db0647&oe=59F9E0F4)

(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19657179_948023812006886_6864600994695412692_n.jpg?oh=63b7ef3132d1ba0055dff7d19a9847a1&oe=59F6D75D)
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: denny on August 03, 2017, 06:37:19 PM
Except for when it's marvelous without doing that.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: Big Monk on August 03, 2017, 06:49:33 PM
Except for when it's marvelous without doing that.

No one is denying that. Differing methods can yield the same results in some areas of brewing.
Title: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: BrewBama on August 04, 2017, 11:57:32 PM
Except for when it's marvelous without doing that.

No one is denying that. Differing methods can yield the same results in some areas of brewing.

Such as....

Seriously I'd like to know. Some of the things you mention are doable. If there are others I'd be interested in hearing what they are to see if they are doable.

Also, when you spund a lager at what point do you transfer into the keg? (Edit: disregard --found it: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=28329.0)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 05, 2017, 12:33:19 AM
I spund, and ideally you transfer with around 4 points of extract left. For me, pitching a lot of lager yeast, I keg average strength
lagers on day 5ish. I'm usually at FG a couple days later, then pump out excess yeast a couple times and then crash/lager.
Title: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: tommymorris on August 05, 2017, 01:20:26 AM
I am only on my 3rd batch spunding so keep that in mind...

I bought a cheap pin lock to use as a fermenter. I add a spunding valve on about day 5 and try to set to 12-15psi at 48F (it's not super precise).

PS. I am brewing 2.5G batches. So the pin lock fermenter is a good fit.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: wellerjohn on August 08, 2017, 07:21:15 PM
A more esters yeast might help. If you like dry yeast try BRY-97, but it is a slow starter, so don't be alarmed. I might do a smaller batch with it before committing to 18 gallons.

More hops as others have said.
I'll never use that yeast agin, slow starter... more like never starter



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: Big Monk on August 08, 2017, 07:55:36 PM
Except for when it's marvelous without doing that.

No one is denying that. Differing methods can yield the same results in some areas of brewing.

Such as....

Seriously I'd like to know. Some of the things you mention are doable. If there are others I'd be interested in hearing what they are to see if they are doable.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The point was just that good foam is not a Low Oxygen thing, it's a good brewing process thing. Denny made it seem like Bryan's methods for surefire foam were putting down any others. It's not a point of contention.

If you can get great foam doing whatever it is you do then more power to you. I know that using the methods Bryan described I get the best foam I ever have.
 
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: denny on August 08, 2017, 09:27:09 PM
Except for when it's marvelous without doing that.

No one is denying that. Differing methods can yield the same results in some areas of brewing.

Such as....

Seriously I'd like to know. Some of the things you mention are doable. If there are others I'd be interested in hearing what they are to see if they are doable.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The point was just that good foam is not a Low Oxygen thing, it's a good brewing process thing. Denny made it seem like Bryan's methods for surefire foam were putting down any others. It's not a point of contention.

If you can get great foam doing whatever it is you do then more power to you. I know that using the methods Bryan described I get the best foam I ever have.

Only becasue Bryan made it sound like that was the only way.  But neither he nor I mentioned any other practices, which we both should have.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: Big Monk on August 08, 2017, 10:23:45 PM
Except for when it's marvelous without doing that.

No one is denying that. Differing methods can yield the same results in some areas of brewing.

Such as....

Seriously I'd like to know. Some of the things you mention are doable. If there are others I'd be interested in hearing what they are to see if they are doable.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The point was just that good foam is not a Low Oxygen thing, it's a good brewing process thing. Denny made it seem like Bryan's methods for surefire foam were putting down any others. It's not a point of contention.

If you can get great foam doing whatever it is you do then more power to you. I know that using the methods Bryan described I get the best foam I ever have.

Only becasue Bryan made it sound like that was the only way.  But neither he nor I mentioned any other practices, which we both should have.

We need more point/counterpoint on here. We are just not going to agree on many things and that's fine but there should be healthy debate and not needless obscurantism in response to people having their own opinions.

I love to debate, not argue. The former is one of the most stimulating things you can be involved in. The latter, especially for its own sale or the sake of defending one's opinion or position, is completely pointless.

I think there is a lot of potential for the former on many topics here.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 09, 2017, 01:15:15 AM
Did I not literally bold, italics and under line the according to me part.  I am confused. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: denny on August 09, 2017, 01:18:56 AM
Did I not literally bold, italics and under line the according to me part.  I am confused. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You did.  My bad.  I apologize.
Title: Re: Ideas for recipe improvement!
Post by: The Beerery on August 16, 2017, 01:38:10 AM
Call me crazy but when I have down time I read Kunze.  Here is foam according to Kunze.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170816/ec7264564e1c7053520a9f2bca803769.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk