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General Category => Zymurgy => Topic started by: yso191 on August 24, 2017, 05:51:43 PM

Title: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: yso191 on August 24, 2017, 05:51:43 PM
I've just been looking at the winners' recipes,in the latest edition of Zymurgy.  I found myself wishing I could see a judges scoresheet to get a better idea of what made the beer great, and what specific flavors they found.  I don't know if that is worth the effort it would take, but FWIW I think it would be helpful.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: Dave Carpenter on August 27, 2017, 06:00:05 PM
Hey, Steve, thanks for the great suggestion! I will keep that in mind. Logistically, it might be challenging to obtain and print all the scoresheets (probably online), and we would probably need to obtain permission from the winners to do so (that's not my area of expertise).

I'll mention it in our next AHA staff meeting and see what those more knowledgeable than I have to say. :)



I've just been looking at the winners' recipes,in the latest edition of Zymurgy.  I found myself wishing I could see a judges scoresheet to get a better idea of what made the beer great, and what specific flavors they found.  I don't know if that is worth the effort it would take, but FWIW I think it would be helpful.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: brewinhard on August 27, 2017, 09:57:23 PM
Keep in mind that when selecting the final round winners through mini BOS that there is no secondary scoresheet completed that would indicate why each beer was "propelled" into the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places. That is done by the judges commiserating over which ones they think fit the guidelines the best. Or at least that is how I understand it.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: Stevie on August 27, 2017, 10:11:11 PM
Keep in mind that when selecting the final round winners through mini BOS that there is no secondary scoresheet completed that would indicate why each beer was "propelled" into the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places. That is done by the judges commiserating over which ones they think fit the guidelines the best. Or at least that is how I understand it.
^ this means a beer that scores just high enough to make the cut could beat beers with much higher scores. Therefore the scores don't necessarily mean much when it comes to the winners.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: Scot (one T) on August 27, 2017, 10:19:09 PM
Also, NHC uses the checkbox scoresheets.  There most likely won't be the detailed information you're hoping to see. 
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 28, 2017, 12:46:14 AM
Also, NHC uses the checkbox scoresheets.  There most likely won't be the detailed information you're hoping to see.

This is the answer I was going to write.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: brewinhard on August 30, 2017, 12:00:49 AM
Keep in mind that when selecting the final round winners through mini BOS that there is no secondary scoresheet completed that would indicate why each beer was "propelled" into the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places. That is done by the judges commiserating over which ones they think fit the guidelines the best. Or at least that is how I understand it.
^ this means a beer that scores just high enough to make the cut could beat beers with much higher scores. Therefore the scores don't necessarily mean much when it comes to the winners.

Exactly. You just gotta get your entry into that mini-BOS round for a shot!
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: hackrsackr on August 30, 2017, 05:08:18 AM
Another small point is that the numerically scored sample and the mini-bos sample come from different bottles. This allows for significant scoring variance, up and down.

Plus the factors of pull order, temperature differences, and palate fatigue are generally much less of a factor due to the beers being sampled at the same time in mini bos. This puts the samples on a more even playing field than the were during the numerical scoring round.

Also, the judges who judge the first round (of the final round) aren't the same judges that pick the winners. Mini BOS judge panel is comprised of the highest ranking judges, and their opinions can vary greatly from the initial set of judges.

The score means nothing. All the beers chosen for medals are "considered" to be world-class examples of their respective style.


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Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: mabrungard on August 30, 2017, 12:11:00 PM
The score means nothing. All the beers chosen for medals are "considered" to be world-class examples of their respective style.

That's hardly my experience. Its rare that beer in the first rounds of NHC are 'world-class' beer. With almost two decades of judging in the NHC, most beers are only OK and their scores reflect that. But some of those OK beers do advance or are awarded medals because they are the best of the OK.

With that knowledge, I know that 'medal-winning' beer may not mean a lot. However, a score above 38 is more likely to signal that a beer is special and possibly 'world-class'.

A blue-ribbon, 30 point beer is still a mediocre beer.  I would welcome a mention of how a beer was scored by its judges and if those judges were well-experienced. That will tell far more than a medal ever could.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: Wilbur on August 30, 2017, 05:25:58 PM
Hey Dave, any thoughts on creating a BJCP/NHC scoring app? This seems like it'd cut out a lot of work dealing with paperwork, mailing scoresheets, etc. It might make sharing the info easier, and analyzing trends in NHC winners. It could be interesting to find out that judges are picking up or favoring IPA's with peachy notes, or roastier stouts, etc.

It seems like in future years you could add that competing allows you to share score sheets, same thing with the recipes.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: blatz on August 30, 2017, 06:39:40 PM
Hey Dave, any thoughts on creating a BJCP/NHC scoring app? This seems like it'd cut out a lot of work dealing with paperwork, mailing scoresheets, etc. It might make sharing the info easier, and analyzing trends in NHC winners. It could be interesting to find out that judges are picking up or favoring IPA's with peachy notes, or roastier stouts, etc.

It seems like in future years you could add that competing allows you to share score sheets, same thing with the recipes.

that's a really interesting idea - it would also assemble a collection of data on the judges which may help them improve.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: denny on August 30, 2017, 06:55:44 PM
Hey Dave, any thoughts on creating a BJCP/NHC scoring app? This seems like it'd cut out a lot of work dealing with paperwork, mailing scoresheets, etc. It might make sharing the info easier, and analyzing trends in NHC winners. It could be interesting to find out that judges are picking up or favoring IPA's with peachy notes, or roastier stouts, etc.

It seems like in future years you could add that competing allows you to share score sheets, same thing with the recipes.

that's a really interesting idea - it would also assemble a collection of data on the judges which may help them improve.

The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.  It's their decision, not the AHA.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: Wilbur on August 30, 2017, 07:19:02 PM
The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.  It's their decision, not the AHA.

Any reason for this? I can understand electronics & liquids, etc. but I don't know anyone who has a smartphone, ipad, tablet, or laptop. I'd love to get more legible feedback too.

I also get that NHC is a BJCP competition, but does that mean they have to do everything as the BJCP decides? Funding can be an issue, but I imagine with 8,618 entries you can add a few bucks on to the entry fee for a few years and cover the cost.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: brewinhard on August 30, 2017, 08:11:24 PM
The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.  It's their decision, not the AHA.

Funding can be an issue, but I imagine with 8,618 entries you can add a few bucks on to the entry fee for a few years and cover the cost.

Jeez. That would put entry costs close to 16 bucks or so an entry!
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: toby on August 30, 2017, 09:16:14 PM
The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.

I don't know if I would phrase it that way. There are certainly some logistical challenges, but the burden of those is more on the organizers of competitions. If a comp uses an electronic app, are they also going to provide the judges with a tablet or device to be able to use that scoring app? If they expect judges to use their own devices, what are they going to do when a judge's smartphone gets a beer spilled on it?
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: mainebrewer on August 30, 2017, 11:51:36 PM
The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.

I don't know if I would phrase it that way. There are certainly some logistical challenges, but the burden of those is more on the organizers of competitions. If a comp uses an electronic app, are they also going to provide the judges with a tablet or device to be able to use that scoring app? If they expect judges to use their own devices, what are they going to do when a judge's smartphone gets a beer spilled on it?

At most of the comps that I judge, many of the judges are using their smart phones to reference the BJCP guidelines. That said, I wouldn't want to fill out a score sheet by "typing" on my smart phone.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on August 31, 2017, 12:26:47 AM
At most of the comps that I judge, many of the judges are using their smart phones to reference the BJCP guidelines.
As a steward at a number of regional competitions, I've see this also.  It works well - until one runs low / out of battery (near by plug-ins can be hard to find in large rooms). 
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: Wilbur on August 31, 2017, 03:59:02 AM
Type to text is a great thing! Honestly, this might be my age showing, but I'd rather be digital. Worst case scenario-pens and paper forms. Best case scenario? You've eliminated tallying scores, emailing scoresheets. You can have an in app bjcp guide, or a guided tasting mode... I'm getting a little tempted to dust off my C programming skills...
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: hackrsackr on August 31, 2017, 02:10:11 PM
The score means nothing. All the beers chosen for medals are "considered" to be world-class examples of their respective style.

That's hardly my experience. Its rare that beer in the first rounds of NHC are 'world-class' beer. With almost two decades of judging in the NHC, most beers are only OK and their scores reflect that. But some of those OK beers do advance or are awarded medals because they are the best of the OK.

With that knowledge, I know that 'medal-winning' beer may not mean a lot. However, a score above 38 is more likely to signal that a beer is special and possibly 'world-class'.

A blue-ribbon, 30 point beer is still a mediocre beer.  I would welcome a mention of how a beer was scored by its judges and if those judges were well-experienced. That will tell far more than a medal ever could.

We're talking gold medal final round recipes, not first round ones.

Also the quotation marks implied that it's not always true.


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Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: mabrungard on August 31, 2017, 03:20:34 PM
We're talking gold medal final round recipes, not first round ones.

Also the quotation marks implied that it's not always true.

Understood, but an important point still applies to final round beers too. They are not all 'great'.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: denny on August 31, 2017, 03:44:33 PM
The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.

I don't know if I would phrase it that way. There are certainly some logistical challenges, but the burden of those is more on the organizers of competitions. If a comp uses an electronic app, are they also going to provide the judges with a tablet or device to be able to use that scoring app? If they expect judges to use their own devices, what are they going to do when a judge's smartphone gets a beer spilled on it?

Exactly
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: oginme on August 31, 2017, 04:30:18 PM
We're talking gold medal final round recipes, not first round ones.

Also the quotation marks implied that it's not always true.

Understood, but an important point still applies to final round beers too. They are not all 'great'.

Drawing a parallel to my other hobby, showing goats, the grand champion of the day is the least worst of the  goats at that show.
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: brewinhard on August 31, 2017, 06:39:34 PM
We're talking gold medal final round recipes, not first round ones.

Also the quotation marks implied that it's not always true.

Understood, but an important point still applies to final round beers too. They are not all 'great'.

Drawing a parallel to my other hobby, showing goats, the grand champion of the day is the least worst of the  goats at that show.

This is awesome!  Just made me laugh...
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: joeinma on August 31, 2017, 07:34:55 PM
I usually add the recipes this issue of Zymurgy into my Beersmith software and some of the recipes don't make sense.   For instance, the Historical London Brown ale, the English Brown winning recipe uses 10 lbs of base malt and another pound of specialty malt but the OG is only 1.038?  That OG is in the range for the that style of beer, but only way to only get 1.038 with over 11 lbs of grain is I put Beersmith's Brewhouse efficiency to 45%.

Ditto with the Other Pale American Ale, American Wheat recipe,  1.042 OG with 11.65 lb grain bill??   Wish the recipes included the brewhouse efficiency so we know what to start with.   
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: riceral on August 31, 2017, 11:26:40 PM
   Wish the recipes included the brewhouse efficiency so we know what to start with.

Or just list the % of each malt. Then we can use our own system's efficiency and whatever batch size we want and determine how much of each fermentable to use.



Title: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: BrewBama on September 01, 2017, 12:37:57 AM
I usually add the recipes this issue of Zymurgy into my Beersmith software and some of the recipes don't make sense.   For instance, the Historical London Brown ale, the English Brown winning recipe uses 10 lbs of base malt and another pound of specialty malt but the OG is only 1.038?  That OG is in the range for the that style of beer, but only way to only get 1.038 with over 11 lbs of grain is I put Beersmith's Brewhouse efficiency to 45%.

Ditto with the Other Pale American Ale, American Wheat recipe,  1.042 OG with 11.65 lb grain bill??   Wish the recipes included the brewhouse efficiency so we know what to start with.

Though I didn't plug it into a calculator I'm thinking that has to be for a 10 gal batch. Instead of changing brewhouse efficiency try increasing the batch size and see what you get.


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Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: waltsmalt on September 01, 2017, 02:58:49 AM
We're talking gold medal final round recipes, not first round ones.

Also the quotation marks implied that it's not always true.

Understood, but an important point still applies to final round beers too. They are not all 'great'.


Drawing a parallel to my other hobby, showing goats, the grand champion of the day is the least worst of the  goats at that show.

This is great.  For a minute or two I remembered this is just a hobby for me.   ;)
Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: hackrsackr on September 01, 2017, 08:47:44 AM
We're talking gold medal final round recipes, not first round ones.

Also the quotation marks implied that it's not always true.

Understood, but an important point still applies to final round beers too. They are not all 'great'.

Drawing a parallel to my other hobby, showing goats, the grand champion of the day is the least worst of the  goats at that show.

Agreed, but...
This just happens to be the largest goat show in the world, and has four rounds of judging with about four months in between. The final judging (final round mini- BOS) being done by some of the highest ranked judges in the country. Of course they're not all great (June shipping the biggest factor IMO, lack of freshness from beers not rebrewed being second,) but a medal in the final round means more than a numerical score in some regional competition from less experienced judges. There may be some dud recipes in there, but there's going be 20-25 great recipes in there. If the recipe doesn't look right, don't brew it, or brew it to see how it turns out. Them's the options.

I for one, love the fact that the AHA publishes these recipes. Doing so gives new homebrewers a ballpark recipe for every style, each and every year. While they may not ALL be great, they have been more rigorously judged than any other entries you'll find.

Congrats to the winners, and thanks for sharing. Even the baaaah-d ones. 🤠

Title: Re: NHC Gold Medal Recipes
Post by: dsmitch19 on September 13, 2017, 03:16:51 AM
The BJCP has always been firmly against electronic scoring.  It's their decision, not the AHA.

Ok, I'm late to the party on this one b/c I've been traveling and off the grid for a couple weeks. But, I do want to clarify this in case someone reads this thread in the future.

The BJCP does not have a stance on electronic score sheets. Our competition sanctioning rules state that BJCP Judging Forms are recommended but not mandatory. The AHA runs the National Homebrew Competition, not the BJCP (I often see confusion there from entrants and sometimes even judges). The AHA can choose to run the NHC in any way they see fit as long as they follow the BJCP sanctioning rules and regulations (link below). We provide wide latitude for competition organizers to run competitions as they see fit as long as the basic rules are followed. So, nothing is stopping the NHC or any other competition from using electronic scoring other than perhaps the logistical concerns and work required to do so.

http://dev.bjcp.org/competitions/rules-regulations/

Cheers,
Dennis