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General Category => Extract/Partial Mash Brewing => Topic started by: BrewnWKopperKat on October 21, 2017, 01:11:04 AM

Title: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on October 21, 2017, 01:11:04 AM
I recently converted the Amarillo Pale Ale recipe (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/amarillo-pale-ale/) to be a 30 minute boil all DME recipe using ideas from these two posts: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29885 & https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=29617.0 .  The results came out well for the 1st iteration. It was fun to see the color come out as described in the 1st topic.  So a 'thank you' to those who offered advice in those topics!  On to my question.

If you brew DME/LME with 'ultra-short' boils (15 minute ?, 5 minute?, heat just enough to pasteurize?), how do you adjust the hop rates when converting from a recipe with a more typical hop schedule?

Apr 2018 edit. two links for IBU calculations: IBU Calculator - Diversity Methodology (FWH, Boil and Whirlpool bitterness): https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=30046.0 ; An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: Stevie on October 21, 2017, 03:34:06 AM
Math. Software and web based recipe platforms can do the work for you. Shorter boil = more hops.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on October 21, 2017, 01:55:24 PM
I've 'played with the sliders' briefly on a couple of different automated recipe calculators and get meaningfully different results. 

Any insights into the equations that model this portion of the brewing process?   
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: denny on October 21, 2017, 03:53:49 PM
For my 20 min. boil recipes I increase the bittering hops by 50%.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: Stevie on October 21, 2017, 04:21:46 PM
Look in how to brew. There you will find all the hop utilization equations.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on October 27, 2017, 10:41:10 AM
Look in how to brew. There you will find all the hop utilization equations.

Thanks Stevie and Denny.  I missed/overlooked 4th edition of HtB on my initial search, and the numbers/equations/models I was looking for are in there.  Plenty of 'food for thought' that should pair nicely with a good homebrew. 
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: el_capitan on November 13, 2017, 01:33:17 AM
What's the motivation for the short boils?  Is the extra half an hour of time worth using double the hops?  There's still all the time of getting it up to a boil, as well as chilling.  I use the boil time to sanitize my fermenter and clean up my other gear. 
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: The Beerery on November 13, 2017, 01:45:29 AM
Because homebrewers in general boil off way to much (commercial systems average ~5%), and the TBI index is off the charts.  So a shorter boil evaporates less generally and most people notice better beer.  But in reality you could just lower your evaporation and achieve the same thing with 60. 


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Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: el_capitan on November 13, 2017, 01:50:18 AM
Gotcha.  One big change I'm noticing with the Grainfather is the vastly reduced boiloff.  I'm still dialing the system in, but that was a surprise.  I usually brew outdoors over propane.  I wonder if there is a reduction in boiloff due to the increased humidity and ambient temperature when brewing indoors?  I'm guessing that's a factor, but that's hard to quantify.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on November 14, 2017, 02:56:10 AM
As I noted in reply 5 (above), I got the answers to my original questions.  The use of those results is coming out better than hoped for a first attempt.   

In the off chance that my replies (below) will spark something useful (to me), I'll offer some short answers to the questions raised.  Apologies in advance if they come across as terse (which is not my intent).

What's the motivation for the short boils? 
Curiosity. 

Is the extra half an hour of time worth using double the hops? 
I currently am in a position where I can 'optimize' my homebrewing hobby for enjoyment (curiosity, good results, ...), and not have to make time / cost trade-off when I brew.

There's still all the time of getting it up to a boil, as well as chilling.  I use the boil time to sanitize my fermenter and clean up my other gear.
After seeing Brewing When You Have No Time (Getting More out of Your Limited Brewing Time) by Sachin “Chino” Darji at HomeBrewCon this past summer, I'm pretty comfortable with how I use my time during my brew sessions.


Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: denny on November 14, 2017, 04:40:33 PM
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil.  I up the bittering hops by 50% to compensate for the short boil.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 14, 2017, 06:30:52 PM
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil. 

And I thought I was daring by going down to 45 minutes.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on November 15, 2017, 12:46:46 AM
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil. 

And I thought I was daring by going down to 45 minutes.

So far, for my BAIB batches, 30 minutes is as low as I've gone (pales & ambers).   For my darker ales, I'm still "old-school" with 60 minute mash/boil - under the belief that the extra boil time will produce some favorable flavors.  Looks like I'll have to schedule a couple of side-by-side "test" batches. 

On the DME side, I'm really happy with the flavors I got by "hop steeping" Citra - for my taste, it's soooooo much smoother than the classic @10 / @ 5 aroma hop addition. 

Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: el_capitan on November 15, 2017, 03:16:04 AM
As I noted in reply 5 (above), I got the answers to my original questions.  The use of those results is coming out better than hoped for a first attempt.   

In the off chance that my replies (below) will spark something useful (to me), I'll offer some short answers to the questions raised.  Apologies in advance if they come across as terse (which is not my intent).

What's the motivation for the short boils? 
Curiosity. 

Is the extra half an hour of time worth using double the hops? 
I currently am in a position where I can 'optimize' my homebrewing hobby for enjoyment (curiosity, good results, ...), and not have to make time / cost trade-off when I brew.

There's still all the time of getting it up to a boil, as well as chilling.  I use the boil time to sanitize my fermenter and clean up my other gear.
After seeing Brewing When You Have No Time (Getting More out of Your Limited Brewing Time) by Sachin “Chino” Darji at HomeBrewCon this past summer, I'm pretty comfortable with how I use my time during my brew sessions.

Sure, man.  Brew what you like, however you like to brew it.  Sorry for questioning your motivations.  Peace out, homey.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on November 15, 2017, 04:17:23 AM
I do AG batches with a 20 min. mash and 20 min. boil. 

And I thought I was daring by going down to 45 minutes.

So far, for my BAIB batches, 30 minutes is as low as I've gone (pales & ambers).   For my darker ales, I'm still "old-school" with 60 minute mash/boil - under the belief that the extra boil time will produce some favorable flavors.  Looks like I'll have to schedule a couple of side-by-side "test" batches. 

On the DME side, I'm really happy with the flavors I got by "hop steeping" Citra - for my taste, it's soooooo much smoother than the classic @10 / @ 5 aroma hop addition.

Thanks again Denny, Stevie, & Steve for the insights and comments. 
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: el_capitan on November 17, 2017, 02:26:56 AM
Sorry if I contributed to thread drift.  I didn't mean any disrespect with my question about your motivation to brew with shorter boils.  It's just something I've never done in my 14 years of brewing, and I wondered what the motivation was.  I appreciate learning from the experience of others on this forum, and part of that is feeling free to ask questions. 

I'm glad shorter boils are working for you, but did you consider this?  If you did longer boils, you would have more time to up your post count with the Song Titles thread.  Sweet.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on November 17, 2017, 10:01:33 PM
Sorry if I contributed to thread drift.  I didn't mean any disrespect with my question about your motivation to brew with shorter boils.  It's just something I've never done in my 14 years of brewing, and I wondered what the motivation was.  I appreciate learning from the experience of others on this forum, and part of that is feeling free to ask questions. 

Apology accepted.  I'm not offended by the thread drift - in a number of previous topics, something slightly off topic has proven to be valuable to me.

I brew a mix of BIAB and DME, typically in the 2-3 gallon range.  My BIAB process is pretty traditional - typically a 60 minute mash / boil for darker styles and a 30 min mash/boil for lighter, hop forward styles.  With my existing DME recipes (all are in the 44 - 60 OG range), I'm settling in on a 30 minute boil (rather than 60, 45, or 15).   Recently, my "experimental" DME batches have involved shorter boils and either hop bursting or hop steeping.  There appear to interesting tasty things that one can do with DME other than use it as a substitute for 2-row malt at 60. 
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on March 03, 2018, 01:44:04 PM
I listened to the latest (3/1/18: Hop Stand Temperature Experiment) episode from Basic Brewing Radio.  Refreshing to hear about their "no boil" approach to testing hop stands. 

Hopefully the world won't end if/when I mix in "Short & Shoddy: Instantpot Edition" (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31279.0) and some cryo hop insights (https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31270.0).  8)
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: clibit on April 09, 2018, 02:33:07 PM
Some help needed in England please. I have started doing 30 min mash and 30 min boil for my stove top BIAB and partial mash brews, purely for time saving, though I like the idea of more hops later, maybe I should do 20/20. It's early days and I'm struggling with IBU accuracy, I don't know how to calculate the effect of adding hops to the kettle after the mash, and 15-20 minutes before the boil is reached, and the period after the boil when the wort is above 80C/176F. I estimate this to be about 15 minutes - I cool in the kitchen sink. It's like isomerisation gets the full 60 minutes or so. My first 30/30 brew was much more bitter than planned, as isomerisation was presumably taking place before and after the boil. A 60 minute boil takes out most of the acids so didn't present this pre/post boil problem, to anything like the same extent.

I could add the first hops to the kettle at boiling point to solve that end of the equation. At the other end, should I time the period it takes me to get to 80C and add that time to the hop calculations? Because there is clearly still a fair amount of acid being converted. Thanks.

Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on April 10, 2018, 10:35:33 AM
... how to calculate the effect of adding hops to the kettle after the mash, and 15-20 minutes before the boil is reached, and the period after the boil when the wort is above 80C/176F. ...

These two links may be helpful.

IBU Calculator - Diversity Methodology (FWH, Boil and Whirlpool bitterness): https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=30046.0

An Analysis of Sub-Boiling Hop Utilization: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

I haven't looked at recipe software recently (in the last year) to see if the software has "caught up" with the these models.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: clibit on April 10, 2018, 01:15:58 PM
Thanks Kat - I'll see what I can glean from those.
Title: Re: Designing/converting recipes for 'ultra-short' boils?
Post by: purduekenn on June 29, 2018, 01:29:25 AM
I mostly brew partial mash beers inside in the summer when its in the 90's outside. I'm using a 30 minute mash and a 15 minute boil as it keeps steam production low and doesn't heat up the house like long boils. Plus the beer still tastes great! Just need to use more hops.