Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: gman23 on October 21, 2017, 08:08:28 PM

Title: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: gman23 on October 21, 2017, 08:08:28 PM
First off, I realize this is missing a lot of components to be a NEIPA so let's go with 'hazy IPA'. I am getting this sort of medicinal hop bite at the back of my mouth. I have gotten this is in a lot of NEIPAs which is why I have been a bit leery of the substyle that this is influenced by. It's kind of like a combination of hop bitterness, citrus pith, and aspirin that just sits on the palate and almost burns. Is it possibly related to my water profile in combination with a reasonably low FG/yeast choice? Maybe because of a considerable bittering charge when a lot rely mostly on all late hops?

61% Pilsner
21% Wheat
16% flaked oats
2% caramunich III

30 g Nugget 60 min
56 g Equinox 2 min
56 g Cascade 2 min

28 g Equinox Dry Hop day 3
28 g Simcoe Dry Hop day 3
28 g Amarillo Dry Hop day 3

28 g Equinox Dry Hop day 7
28 g Simcoe Dry Hop day 7
28 g Amarillo Dry Hop day 7

Water:
Ca - 87
Mg - 6
Na - 25
SO4 - 50
Cl -150
mash pH = 5.4

OG 1.056
FG 1.009
56 IBU
US05 yeast
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: denny on October 21, 2017, 08:23:09 PM
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 21, 2017, 09:28:07 PM
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 21, 2017, 09:48:00 PM
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?


I don't brew NEIPAs (as of yet), but that level of late and dry hopping isn't out of line with my hopping and I don't get medicinal character from an 8 oz hop stand and 5 oz dry (or more on each). So I don't think it's the hopping in and of itself. Not being a NEIPA brewer, I don't know the interplay between the higher levels of oats and other ingredients including higher CaCl2 levels. 1056/001/05 should be no factor. Any chance of infection? Medicinal fits there.


Edit -  Or maybe it's a different beer in a week as it sits and mellows/comes together. Be sure to post how it comes out. Sorry not to be more help.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 21, 2017, 09:54:51 PM
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?


I don't brew NEIPAs (as of yet), but that level of late and dry hopping isn't out of line with my hopping and I don't get medicinal character from an 8 oz hop stand and 5 oz dry (or more on each). So I don't think it's the hopping in and of itself. Not being a NEIPA brewer, I don't know the interplay between the higher levels of oats and other ingredients including higher CaCl2 levels. 1056/001/05 should be no factor. Any chance of infection? Medicinal fits there.


Edit -  Or maybe it's a different beer in a week as it sits and mellows/comes together. Be sure to post how it comes out. Sorry not to be more help.

Thanks Jon. Going in the keg next week so maybe so time will help. I have noticed this character in some real neipa examples which is what originally worried me.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: erockrph on October 22, 2017, 04:48:18 PM
Many people have noted harsh, unpleasant polyphenols from the high late hopping in NEIPA.  Could that be it?

Kind of my assumption however 4 oz at the end of the boil and 6 oz dry is nothing compared to what a lot of people use. Are you referring to the hops at the end of the boil?

My IPA's aren't exactly the NEIPA style, but they share the heavy late hopping and minimal (zero, in my case) bittering charge. I get a similar harsh bitterness (kind of an herbal/medicinal bitter quality) in many of my IPA's, and quite a few commercial examples as well. Most of my IPA experimentation in recent years has been to try to get rid of this character while maintaining the intense hop flavor that I love in my IPA's.

Here's some of what I've found:

- I notice this starting at about 1.5-2 ounces of hops per gallon, and it gets more noticible at higher hopping rates
- Polyclar and gallotannin gave both failed to reduce this character
- I have gotten this from whirlpool-only beers (i.e., no dry hops or bittering charge). That's not to say that it can't come from dry hops, but it definitely can come from whirlpool hops
- Pellet hops and cryo hops both give this type of bitterness at high hopping rates
- I do not get this character when a significant portion of my hops are whole cone

I still have some further testing to confirm, but my current working hypotheses are:

- Chopped up vegetative material in pellet hops has a greater surface area for releasing whatever is causing this flavor.
- Heat may increase the extraction of this character. A good test would be having a moderate bittering charge and a massive dry hop addition only, with no late-boil hops.
- Leaf hops may help pull/keep this out of the finished beer when used in conjunction with pellet hops. I'm not quite sold on this yet, but the couple of times I've used both types together I've had the best results in my IPA's.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 22, 2017, 05:41:40 PM
Thanks for the information. I thought it might be related to the hops I threw in with 2 minutes remaining in the boil. I do that addition there to get about 10 calculated IBUs so I can lower my bittering charge a bit though I don’t know how much sense that really makes. Just kind of started doing and stuck with it. Hopstand is probably the way to go but I haven’t had good results with my system.

Any information about hops added at high krausen? It was my first time doing that too.

At the end of the day I know my hopping rates are not high which is why I thought it may have something to do with water or another ingredient.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: denny on October 22, 2017, 05:53:45 PM
Take a look at this...http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: erockrph on October 22, 2017, 06:29:29 PM
Take a look at this...http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/

I've brewed very hazy IPA's using DME as my only fermentable, so this certainly jives with my experience.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 24, 2017, 03:21:23 PM
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: denny on October 24, 2017, 05:47:33 PM
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

I haven't had a lot of NEIPAs (maybe 15 different commercial examples, including 8 from Treehouse) have all had some amount of astringency.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 24, 2017, 06:01:54 PM
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

I haven't had a lot of NEIPAs (maybe 15 different commercial examples, including 8 from Treehouse) have all had some amount of astringency.

Interesting and good to know. One of the local examples around here is almost undrinkable because of astringency to me but everyone else seems to love it. I thought the goal of the substyle was to avoid this characteristic? Maybe goals are related to lower bitterness NOT astringency...
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: denny on October 24, 2017, 07:00:00 PM
So first off excuse my naivety. The complaint of the article's author regarding a lot of NEIPAs is the exact same as mine...

So polyphenols appear to be the issue however I am still confused. If haze active proteins bind to polyphenols shouldn't all NEIPAs be very astringent? Again since my hopping rates are not high for an IPA I don't really understand why I am having this problem especially since I followed a lot of the specific processes for NEIPA.

Could I fix this by attempting to clarify the beer?

Again, sorry for my lack of understanding.

I haven't had a lot of NEIPAs (maybe 15 different commercial examples, including 8 from Treehouse) have all had some amount of astringency.

Interesting and good to know. One of the local examples around here is almost undrinkable because of astringency to me but everyone else seems to love it. I thought the goal of the substyle was to avoid this characteristic? Maybe goals are related to lower bitterness NOT astringency...

That's my understanding.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: zwiller on October 26, 2017, 04:29:41 PM
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 26, 2017, 04:37:39 PM
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.



I considered posting on it, but the PVPP might make a NEIPA  look clearer, ie., like a 'boring' ole AIPA.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: brewinhard on October 26, 2017, 04:41:36 PM
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.

Erock mentioned that the use of polyclar did nothing to help reduce this issue above....
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 26, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
No mention of the use of polyclar in this thread?  WOW.  For NEIPA use it in the WP 10m to KO. 

Haze active (low molecular) proteins should in theory combine with polyphenols and drop out making the beer less astringent.  That said, I don't buy into the hazy is better thing.

Erock mentioned that the use of polyclar did nothing to help reduce this issue above....


Missed that part. Busy work days + reading posts quickly = operator error sometimes.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 26, 2017, 05:13:13 PM
Going into keg tonight. Will post an update soon.

The goal of this beer was mainly to do a couple things I haven't tried before. It is missing some fundamental things that would make it a proper NEIPA.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: stpug on October 26, 2017, 05:18:28 PM
My experience with hop astringency is the small hop particles in suspension.  Once those settle, the astringency goes away.  However you attack this problem to get those particles settled (in a non-abusive way) is the correct method.  It's easy enough to test on your own: bottle a couple beers, give them 2-7 days cold aging to settle, pour carefully into glass, and compare side-by-side with a fresh pull on your keg.  The downside to the test is that the bottle loses some of the hop goodness to oxidation but for a simple astringency/medicinal test then it should suffice.
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: zwiller on October 26, 2017, 05:26:27 PM
TOUCHE.  Sorry, I stand corrected! 

That said, I strongly disagree.  Polyclar most definitely removes harshness.  That said, polyclar is not gonna help a beer that gets dry hopped with a nasty hop and I am definitely not into simcoe.  I think you gotta be light handed on the high coho stuff there.  I once did a split DH: 50/50 cascade/cent and 50/50 chinook/nelson; .5oz each per 2.5G.  The cascade/cent was the best IPA I ever made and chinook/NV was a dumper...  Even after a few weeks it was bad.  Blew my mind.     

Upon further review.  You want mash pH and boil pH lower at 5.2 for NEIPA this helps reduce astringency a bit too. 
Title: Re: medicinal bite
Post by: gman23 on October 26, 2017, 05:27:13 PM
My experience with hop astringency is the small hop particles in suspension.  Once those settle, the astringency goes away.  However you attack this problem to get those particles settled (in a non-abusive way) is the correct method.  It's easy enough to test on your own: bottle a couple beers, give them 2-7 days cold aging to settle, pour carefully into glass, and compare side-by-side with a fresh pull on your keg.  The downside to the test is that the bottle loses some of the hop goodness to oxidation but for a simple astringency/medicinal test then it should suffice.

This is kind of what I was looking for. The sample I pulled was only a few days after the second hop addition. There was still likely a lot of hop matter in suspension though I didn't note it. This is a problem that might resolve itself.
Title: Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: erockrph on October 27, 2017, 02:45:49 PM
The character I'm referring to is a harsh, vegetal bitterness more than astringency. It may be that Polyclar helps diminish this (I haven't done a side-by-side to compare relative amounts of this character), but it certainly doesn't eliminate it in my experience.

The fine hop particle idea jives with my experience that whole cone hops don't cause this issue. My only issue with this is that in my experience this harsh bitterness never fully goes away. You would think that particles in suspension would drop out completely if given enough time.
Title: Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: zwiller on October 27, 2017, 08:07:44 PM
Now it sounds to me like it's a hop that you don't like.  I see tons of guys and recipes using hops that I hate and would never use.  These hops have what I say is a "course bitterness" as opposed to say a hop like magnum that has a "fine bitterness".  IE OP is using nugget and also simcoe.  Not in my beers!  Same as columbus and  chinook.  Citra is a bit course for me too. 
Title: Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: gman23 on October 27, 2017, 08:17:13 PM
Sorry about my hop choices. Some people like simcoe...

I normally use Magnum for bittering but not in hoppier beers beers where I admittedly want a little more bite
Title: Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: HoosierBrew on October 27, 2017, 09:54:46 PM
The character I'm referring to is a harsh, vegetal bitterness more than astringency. It may be that Polyclar helps diminish this (I haven't done a side-by-side to compare relative amounts of this character), but it certainly doesn't eliminate it in my experience.

The fine hop particle idea jives with my experience that whole cone hops don't cause this issue. My only issue with this is that in my experience this harsh bitterness never fully goes away. You would think that particles in suspension would drop out completely if given enough time.


This is something I have run into in the past with keg hopping - not so much medicinal astringency per se as noticing very fine hop particles that made their way through a strainer bag, giving the beer the vegetal, harsh character you mention. I don't blame the strainer bag solely, more the bag sinking down near the dip tube and the suction created through the dip tube pulling those particles from the bag.

The solution for keg hoppers IMO is using the Clear Beer Draft System, which allows you to pull the dip tube, weight the hop bag to the bottom, and draw beer from the top of the keg well away from the bag. Not to mention the beer at the top of the keg is always clearer than the beer on the bottom (barring hazy or deliberately hazed styles). Regardless, I'm noticing a huge dropoff in harsh particulate and getting clearer beer quicker, with no more gelatin.

Combining this draft system with keg hops (on the bottom) and spunding to purge the keg completely during the dry hop period has solved the dry hopping conundrum for me. $0.02  .

http://www.clearbeerdraughtsystem.com/
Title: Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: zwiller on October 30, 2017, 03:28:47 PM
Sorry about my hop choices. Some people like simcoe...

I normally use Magnum for bittering but not in hoppier beers beers where I admittedly want a little more bite

No need to apologize, it's your beer  ;D  That said, I think brewers should stay away from adding bite to the NEIPA.  You want the opposite.  Smoother is better here.   I only had HT but that thing drinks like a lager...  Back in the day when I experimented with WP I made a IPA with pH of 5.2 and only hops (1lb) were WP for 30m.  Extremely close to the NEIPA.  If I was doing one (I don't care for the style) Mash 5.2, 1lb hops (easy on the dank stuff) low temp stand WP only, PVPP 10 to KO, pass on the DH, and use conan or other fruity yeast and spund.
Title: Re: medicinal bite - astringency?
Post by: gman23 on October 31, 2017, 04:07:24 PM
The astringency (or what I was perceiving as astringency) has largely subsided so it does seem to be related to hop matter in suspension. Just another example of my lack of patience...

The beer itself turned out very different but very good compared to my normal 'hoppy' beers. I am surprised with how close to a NEIPA it is considering the yeast and hop choices. I would never guess that Simcoe or Amarillo are in this beer. Overall a very good learning experience which I will be able to apply to future batches.