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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: JohnstonGold75 on October 31, 2017, 04:51:14 PM

Title: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: JohnstonGold75 on October 31, 2017, 04:51:14 PM
Well, I've got 3 All Grain batches under my belt so far. All of those were recipes I found and scaled to my system. There were maybe 1 or 2 things I added or did differently, but for the most part I stuck with the original idea.

I've been doing some research on ESB's. I'm shooting for something that's malt forward, nice mouth feel, depth of flavor. I thought I'd post the recipe to get some feedback from more experienced brewers.

I brew 5 Gallon batches.

ABV: 5.96 %
OG: 1.058 SG
FG: 1.012 SG
IBUs: 24.3
IBUs Color: 12.2 SRM

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171031/42ac5cdce836c81414573d29825312fa.jpg)

Cheers


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Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: blatz on October 31, 2017, 04:55:23 PM
Try 8-12% eng med Crystal and Maris Otter.  25% caramel malts plus brown sugar is counteractive and likely going to be muddled.  Simpler is better.  Hop schedule looks ok.


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Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: JohnstonGold75 on October 31, 2017, 05:16:55 PM
Try 8-12% eng med Crystal and Maris Otter.  25% caramel malts plus brown sugar is counteractive and likely going to be muddled.  Simpler is better.  Hop schedule looks ok.


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Should I keep the brown sugar or ditch it?


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Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: el_capitan on October 31, 2017, 06:02:55 PM
Personally, I would ditch the brown sugar.  Sounds like blatz concurs.  I've never seen that in an ESB recipe. 
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: JohnstonGold75 on October 31, 2017, 06:03:21 PM
Personally, I would ditch the brown sugar.  Sounds like blatz concurs.  I've never seen that in an ESB recipe.




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Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: 802Chris on November 01, 2017, 06:03:27 AM
My first impression is too much crystal, and I agree that the sugar and crystal are counter productive. hop schedule looks good. When making my ESB I try to stick to the following ratio more or less. 88% base, 10% crystal/adjunct, 2% color/dark malt.

remember cystal malt adds color but also a lot of flavor, and it can be used sparingly. if you are adding mid/dark crystal for color you can always use less and add a touch of dark malt for color.

sugar on the other hand (even brown sugar) does the opposite. it will ferment out almost completely and is usually used to dry out a beer (lighten the body, while maintaining alcohol content).
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 01, 2017, 06:22:14 AM
I find the bottled version of Fullers ESB we get in the US to be too sweet compared to the cask version in the UK. The bottled version is stronger in ABV, and is a different recipe.

John Keeling of Fullers was interviewed on a Can You Brew It episode on the Brewing Network, and his recipe was only 5-6% Crystal malt. No sugar either.
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: blatz on November 01, 2017, 10:54:57 AM
I find the bottled version of Fullers ESB we get in the US to be too sweet

I think so too, although the draft (beer engine) I've had were stateside and I'm sure its not the same.

I looked and my ESB is 92.5% MO/7.5% English dark Crystal 70-80L, as a data point of reference.
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: brewinhard on November 01, 2017, 11:30:27 AM
I concur with the grain adjustments from above and would also state that you will probably want more IBU's in your finished product to balance out the crystal malt. Maybe consider shooting for 35-45 IBU's depending on your preference?
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: JohnstonGold75 on November 01, 2017, 08:49:22 PM
Really great information here! Thank you for the advice.


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Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: jtoots on November 02, 2017, 04:23:32 AM
I concur with the grain adjustments from above and would also state that you will probably want more IBU's in your finished product to balance out the crystal malt. Maybe consider shooting for 35-45 IBU's depending on your preference?
I'm with that suggestion for what I like in an ESB, worth noting that (1) 2008 BJCP caps the style at 35 IBUs and (2) I thought it was interesting that the OP was going for a malt-forward ESB. 
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: dmtaylor on November 02, 2017, 06:03:07 AM
I concur with the grain adjustments from above and would also state that you will probably want more IBU's in your finished product to balance out the crystal malt. Maybe consider shooting for 35-45 IBU's depending on your preference?

+1.  My first thought: Need more hops!  Bittering especially.  Aim for at least 32 IBUs if not 35-38.

I'd also use 1/3 as much crystal malts, consider 1/2 as much brown sugar or zero.
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 02, 2017, 08:38:38 AM
I concur with the grain adjustments from above and would also state that you will probably want more IBU's in your finished product to balance out the crystal malt. Maybe consider shooting for 35-45 IBU's depending on your preference?
I'm with that suggestion for what I like in an ESB, worth noting that (1) 2008 BJCP caps the style at 35 IBUs and (2) I thought it was interesting that the OP was going for a malt-forward ESB.

2015 guidelines go up to 50 IBU for strong bitter.

35 IBU is good for Fullers ESB (only ESB in the UK,as that is trademarked), which is a malt showcase.
This may help.
https://byo.com/stories/item/2318-fuller’s-the-pride-of-london
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: Phil_M on November 02, 2017, 09:22:28 AM
I'd actually say the brown sugar is an interesting idea. I've got a British homebrewing book that suggests simply using table sugar if invert is unavailable. Since invert is blended with molasses to approximate the darker invert versions, I see brown sugar (table sugar + molasses) being an interesting idea.

I usually use about 10% invert, sometimes more in my bitters.

I agree with others though, more hops and less caramel malt. If the sugar seems to thin the beer out too much without all that caramel malt, decrease the carbonation, it'll help make is seem "thicker".
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: brewinhard on November 02, 2017, 09:56:53 AM
I'd actually say the brown sugar is an interesting idea. I've got a British homebrewing book that suggests simply using table sugar if invert is unavailable. Since invert is blended with molasses to approximate the darker invert versions, I see brown sugar (table sugar + molasses) being an interesting idea.

I usually use about 10% invert, sometimes more in my bitters.

I agree with others though, more hops and less caramel malt. If the sugar seems to thin the beer out too much without all that caramel malt, decrease the carbonation, it'll help make is seem "thicker".

From a guy who knows his bitters.... ;)
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: Kevin on November 02, 2017, 11:54:17 AM
I'd actually say the brown sugar is an interesting idea. I've got a British homebrewing book that suggests simply using table sugar if invert is unavailable. Since invert is blended with molasses to approximate the darker invert versions, <snip>

There is a quick and easy recipe for invert sugar that uses molasses but true invert sugar got its color from how long it is heated. Also, table sugar is no substitute for invert. If you want to substitute use the product most often used to make invert and that is "sugar in the raw". Yes, I have seen Ron Pattinson suggest using table sugar to recreate historic recipes... as recently as this past Wednesday as a matter of fact. But he is not suggesting that using table sugar is akin to invert, just that you could use it in a pinch. Would I? No. Invert is not that hard to make. Just time consuming when shooting for the darker colors.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search?q=oat+harvest
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: dmtaylor on November 02, 2017, 12:48:34 PM
I never understood the fascination with invert sugar.  Yeast sees sugar, and eats it.  Yeast doesn't care if you've twisted the sugar molecule around -- it eats it anyway, and poops out the same by-products either way.
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: jeremy0209 on November 02, 2017, 01:44:42 PM
Not quite ESB grade, here's my recipe for an Ordinary Bitter. It recently scored a 37.3 (first in its flight) in a comp in Philly. I suppose you could scale it up to make it an ESB.

OG: 1.037
FG: 1.009
SRM: 10
ABV: 3.7%
IBU: 33

92.3% Maris Otter
7.7% Crystal 120

15.1 IBU East Kent Goldings 60 min
11.5 IBU East Kent Goldings 30 min
6.0 IBU East Kent Goldings 15 min

1 pkg Safale S-04 (rehydrated and oxygenated, of course)

Water Profile:
Ca: 55
Mg: 14
Sodium: 3
SO4: 111
Cl: 51
Mash pH: 5.26

Using gelatin to clarify, this beer went grain to glass in less than two weeks and it was crystal clear.
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: Phil_M on November 03, 2017, 08:18:39 AM

There is a quick and easy recipe for invert sugar that uses molasses but true invert sugar got its color from how long it is heated. Also, table sugar is no substitute for invert. If you want to substitute use the product most often used to make invert and that is "sugar in the raw". Yes, I have seen Ron Pattinson suggest using table sugar to recreate historic recipes... as recently as this past Wednesday as a matter of fact. But he is not suggesting that using table sugar is akin to invert, just that you could use it in a pinch. Would I? No. Invert is not that hard to make. Just time consuming when shooting for the darker colors.

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/search?q=oat+harvest

I agree with everything you said. Table sugar is no real substitute, but you can make do with it if you have to. That's why I found the brown sugar idea so interesting, it's certainly a more creative substitute. I haven't brewed in a while, but when I resume I intend to start making my own invert.

I never understood the fascination with invert sugar.  Yeast sees sugar, and eats it.  Yeast doesn't care if you've twisted the sugar molecule around -- it eats it anyway, and poops out the same by-products either way.

Because it does have an impact on the final flavor of the beer. I've achieved a nice light caramel flavor in a bitter without the use of crystal malt. Here's brewinhard's review of that beer, from the 2016 spring swap, the recipe is a few posts later.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26129.msg345548#msg345548

It's also needed to dry the beer out. I know it seems counterintuitive to drive a low ABV British bitter to Belgian Saison levels of attentuation, but serve it at 55o on 0.8-1 vols of CO2 and it works incredibly well
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: chumley on November 03, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
Another vote for sugar in bitters.  As I am usually too lazy to make my own invert sugar, I usually just add D45 or Lyle's golden syrup.  In particular, D45 adds an excellent caramelly flavor to a bitter.
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: Kutaka on November 04, 2017, 04:36:15 PM
The OP's recipe has enough caramel malt to give an adult hippo diabeetus.  ESB's need some caramel malt, but certainly not 2#.  Shoot for less than 1# using British caramel or crystal malt.  5oz of Fawcett c50 and 3oz of Fawcett c150 makes a good ESB.  Better than Fullers!  (not that hard to do)
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: Kutaka on November 04, 2017, 04:50:52 PM
And using sugar in an ESB is certainly not unheard of.  Contrary to previous posts, sugar isn't automatically contraindicated when using a lot of caramel.  Using a lot of caramel produces two things.  Extra sweetness and extra caramel/toffee flavor. 

Using sugar can reduce perceived sweetness and increase booze while preserving caramel flavor that wouldn't have happened without the caramel malt.  Think of sugar as something that gets completely fermented to booze that isn't sweet.  It cuts the sweetness.  Turbinado (raw) sugar is more common than brown sugar for this type of beer.  Sugar in the Raw from Costco for $1.28 a pound, FTW!
Title: Re: 1st ESB From A Scratch Recipe
Post by: JohnstonGold75 on November 04, 2017, 05:08:28 PM
Not quite ESB grade, here's my recipe for an Ordinary Bitter. It recently scored a 37.3 (first in its flight) in a comp in Philly. I suppose you could scale it up to make it an ESB.

OG: 1.037
FG: 1.009
SRM: 10
ABV: 3.7%
IBU: 33

92.3% Maris Otter
7.7% Crystal 120

15.1 IBU East Kent Goldings 60 min
11.5 IBU East Kent Goldings 30 min
6.0 IBU East Kent Goldings 15 min

1 pkg Safale S-04 (rehydrated and oxygenated, of course)

Water Profile:
Ca: 55
Mg: 14
Sodium: 3
SO4: 111
Cl: 51
Mash pH: 5.26

Using gelatin to clarify, this beer went grain to glass in less than two weeks and it was crystal clear.



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