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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: jkirkham on November 06, 2017, 11:00:29 PM

Title: Soy sauce stout
Post by: jkirkham on November 06, 2017, 11:00:29 PM
I brewed a milk chocolate oatmeal stout on 10/24 and today 11/6 I transferred the batch to a secondary. I tasted some of the beer and it taste like soy sauce. I was wondering how this happened, or causes for this. I mashed in low but raised the temp to 152* and used dry yeast, Windsor from Danstar/lallemand. The beer fermented between 63-68* which is my house temperature. And it looked to have completed fermentation in 4 days.

I rehydrated the yeast and used two packs because I was shooting for 8%abv.

The following was my grain build and hop schedule.

12lbs maris otter
2 chocolate
1 black
1 crystal 75
1 flaked wheat

East Kent holdings at 60 and 20 min (1oz each addition).
15 minutes 1 lb lactose
15 min whirlflock and yeast nutrient
10 minutes fuggle
5 minutes fuggle

I ended up boiling for 75 minutes. And I added oxygen from a tank prior to pitching the yeast.
Is there a way I can clean this up? And thoughts on why it might taste like soy sauce?

I have read about the yeast dying and people have blamed the chocolate malt.
Looking for advice and feedback.

Thanks for helping.

Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: 802Chris on November 07, 2017, 06:19:26 AM
That is pretty early to taste an 8% beer. Does it taste alcoholic/"hot"? It may just need some time to mellow out.

Did you take original and final gravity readings using a hydrometer?

Also, it isn't the chocolate malt, although 2 Lbs is a lot combined with a pound of black. it wouldn't hurt the yeast though.

Did you adjust PH at all?
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: dmtaylor on November 07, 2017, 07:16:53 AM
2 lb chocolate and 1 lb black malt will lower the pH (acidify) the beer in a huge way.  My guess is you used too much of these.  I'd have limited to just like half a pound or less, just enough to get a black color without going overboard.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: jkirkham on November 07, 2017, 09:08:08 AM
No, I did not adjust the ph at all, haven't made it that far into home brewing yet. I was thinking it was the malts, more so the choco and black. I wanted to have a nice choco character but suppose I went a bit high with it. It did not taste hot to me, but I only had like 2oz to taste.
 If I every thy this again I will use less of both!

The soy sauce taste is an off flavor? I know his beer doesn't have an infection, or at least it appears to me as if it doesn't. It's not sour, more so salty and sweet is how I would describe it.

Do you think he fuggles as finishing hops could also contribute to this mixture of taste? Just the grassyness of those hops on combination of the choco/black and lowering of the ph.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 07, 2017, 09:49:45 AM
It is unlikely to be an infection this early, but it is possible...the typical soy sauce comes from glutamates formed in the autolysis of the yeast, but can result from the dark malts and crystal clashing a bit with the  lactose.  I like a more restrained late addition with the dark malts and I hold off on a lot of lactose, but to each his own and you certainly have a need for some lactose given the style you made.  As with any beer, balance is best.  A lighter touch typically serves us better.

It is a hobby and now you can attempt a tweak on this recipe and see what result you get.  I have done dozens of iterations of a particular style to get it where I like it (and some others may not like where I end up!)  if you are sensitive to the soy sauce issue (I know I am), you should look to other ways to achieve the flavor profile you seek.  Best of luck and brew on!
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: nbarmbrewer on November 07, 2017, 09:55:49 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 07, 2017, 10:07:52 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.

Old yeast could give off a meaty, savory flavor, I suppose that combined with the dark malts comes off as soy sauce.  Was it a nice, creamy pitch of rehydrated yeast?
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 07, 2017, 10:10:45 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.


^^  This
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 07, 2017, 10:18:50 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.


^^  This
  But at 13 days from pitch to rack?  Seems a bit quick to be autolysis... any number of issues may be combining here...
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: 802Chris on November 07, 2017, 10:20:04 AM
I'm thinking maybe an under pitch?

I have a hard time believing autolysis would be the culprit in two weeks.

Maybe a combination of under pitch and bad PH, that would certainly stress any yeast to give of some serious funk.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 07, 2017, 10:26:07 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.


^^  This
  But at 13 days from pitch to rack?  Seems a bit quick to be autolysis... any number of issues may be combining here...


I don't disagree, under normal circumstances with healthy yeast. I've just always associated a meaty, soy character to autolysis. Obviously it doesn't normally show up this fast - just thought if the yeast were old/in subpar shape, combined with trying to ferment a big beer with a warm ferment could have thrown yeast related off flavors, even autolysis if the yeast were old enough. Other factors may well have contributed.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: dmtaylor on November 07, 2017, 10:30:14 AM
I seriously doubt it's autolysis.  But there's way too much roasted malt.  Way too much.  Dark malts are acidic.  Soy sauce is kind of sour.  I think that's what's going on.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: jkirkham on November 07, 2017, 10:40:25 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.


^^  This
  But at 13 days from pitch to rack?  Seems a bit quick to be autolysis... any number of issues may be combining here...


I don't disagree, under normal circumstances with healthy yeast. I've just always associated a meaty, soy character to autolysis. Obviously it doesn't normally show up this fast - just thought if the yeast were old/in subpar shape, combined with trying to ferment a big beer with a warm ferment could have thrown yeast related off flavors, even autolysis if the yeast were old enough. Other factors may well have contributed.

I do not think it was the yeast itself. The dry yeast was not old and I do not think it was an underpitch either. (Could be wrong, but I used two packages and yeast nutrient)
I do think temperature could be part of the issue, my temp strip on my carboy displayed a higher temp than what my house was, but only a few degrees and this range was still acceptable for what the strain works best under.

I might have racked into secondary early but the fermentation took off and was very aggressive. I use blow off valves and the blow off water needed to be changed 3 time because it kept overflowing. (I use a growler)

If it is an underpitch, would anyone recommend a repitch?

And does anyone think the late hop additions could play a part in this off flavor? I.e. Hop flavor combine with lower ph and a high fermentation temp.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: The Beerery on November 07, 2017, 10:45:19 AM
Soy sauce and kibble are big beer (High OG) oxidation flavors, homies.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: dmtaylor on November 07, 2017, 10:50:35 AM
If it is an underpitch, would anyone recommend a repitch?

And does anyone think the late hop additions could play a part in this off flavor? I.e. Hop flavor combine with lower ph and a high fermentation temp.

It is NOT an underpitch.  If anything, it's an OVERpitch.

It's not the hops.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: jkirkham on November 07, 2017, 10:55:59 AM
Soy sauce and kibble are big beer (High OG) oxidation flavors, homies.

I ran oxygen for about 30 seconds.
I am new to pure oxygen, typically I used to shake the carboy. I have also been nervous about using oxygen because I didn't want to eff up a beer, but I used the same amount of oxygen on a 10% wee heavy and the beer taste fine.

Typically how long should I oxygenate for if you think oxygen is part of the issue, I've read 30-60 seconds and plan to stick to thwith lower side of the timeline when I brew.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: denny on November 07, 2017, 11:29:46 AM
Soy Sauce flavor could be Autolysis.  Just because your house stays at those temps doesn't mean it's fermenting at those temps.  Fermentation creates heat.  Your dry yeast could have been a little on the old side too.


^^  This
  But at 13 days from pitch to rack?  Seems a bit quick to be autolysis... any number of issues may be combining here...

Agreed on both
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: Joe Sr. on November 08, 2017, 03:39:58 PM
Soy sauce and kibble are big beer (High OG) oxidation flavors, homies.

I ran oxygen for about 30 seconds.
I am new to pure oxygen, typically I used to shake the carboy. I have also been nervous about using oxygen because I didn't want to eff up a beer, but I used the same amount of oxygen on a 10% wee heavy and the beer taste fine.

Typically how long should I oxygenate for if you think oxygen is part of the issue, I've read 30-60 seconds and plan to stick to thwith lower side of the timeline when I brew.

He's talking oxidation, not oxygenation.  60 seconds of oxygen pre-fermentation (oxygenation) is fine.  Exposure to oxygen post-fermentation (oxidation) can stale your beer or cause off flavors.

IME, it would be pretty hard for the beer to get badly oxidized in the primary fermenter.  How much splashing was there when you transferred to secondary?  You could oxidize there, but I don't know how quickly that would change the flavor to soy sauce.  I've seen oxidation change a beer's color pretty quickly, though.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: Nathan on November 09, 2017, 08:03:25 AM
I've only experienced those soy sauce flavours in older beer s that were not stored well only once or twice with home brew and probably 1/2 a dozen times at the liquor store ( I live in a small town in Northern British Columbia and unpasteurized beers sometimes don't survive the long journey and the fluorescent lights)


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Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: Nathan on November 09, 2017, 08:11:24 AM
Way too heavy on dark malts though;think of it as a making coffee too strong, it's the acidity that ruins the flavour  I have become a fan of cold extracting part or all of my black malts in cold water the day prior to brew day and adding the liquid to the boil


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Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: jkirkham on November 09, 2017, 01:36:06 PM
I've only experienced those soy sauce flavours in older beer s that were not stored well only once or twice with home brew and probably 1/2 a dozen times at the liquor store ( I live in a small town in Northern British Columbia and unpasteurized beers sometimes don't survive the long journey and the fluorescent lights)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Way too heavy on dark malts though;think of it as a making coffee too strong, it's the acidity that ruins the flavour  I have become a fan of cold extracting part or all of my black malts in cold water the day prior to brew day and adding the liquid to the boil


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Soy sauce and kibble are big beer (High OG) oxidation flavors, homies.

I ran oxygen for about 30 seconds.
I am new to pure oxygen, typically I used to shake the carboy. I have also been nervous about using oxygen because I didn't want to eff up a beer, but I used the same amount of oxygen on a 10% wee heavy and the beer taste fine.

Typically how long should I oxygenate for if you think oxygen is part of the issue, I've read 30-60 seconds and plan to stick to thwith lower side of the timeline when I brew.

He's talking oxidation, not oxygenation.  60 seconds of oxygen pre-fermentation (oxygenation) is fine.  Exposure to oxygen post-fermentation (oxidation) can stale your beer or cause off flavors.

IME, it would be pretty hard for the beer to get badly oxidized in the primary fermenter.  How much splashing was there when you transferred to secondary?  You could oxidize there, but I don't know how quickly that would change the flavor to soy sauce.  I've seen oxidation change a beer's color pretty quickly, though.

I do not think it’s oxedized. Was just saying I pumped in oxygen. I do not get much splashing, long tube on auto siphon.
Good point on the coffee part, and cold mashing I suppose. In the past I have pitched cold brew I made and the milk coffee stout was fine. Never tried chocolate malts in a stout like this before.

Is their any chance this will go away, or can I doctor this batch?
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: skyler on November 10, 2017, 09:21:01 AM
I agree with everyone that you used way too much dark malt. 1 lb chocolate malt and 4 oz black malt would be plenty of dark malt. Black malt is very intense and 1 lb of it on top of 2 lbs of chocolate malt would make for a very acidic mash, as Denny said. Also, consider that fermentation temperature will almost always be 4-8 degrees warmer than ambient temperature. In my experience, 4 degrees for lagers and 6 degrees for ales is pretty typical. Your fermometer wasn't lying to you.

My advice for next time: try out a recipe calculating site like brewtoad to help you at the planning stage. I also recommend using published recipes for inspiration. The AHA site has plenty of great recipes to check out.

My advice for this batch: give it a few more days or a week and see how it is. Don't try to doctor it; that has never been effective at managing off flavors, IME.
Title: Re: Soy sauce stout
Post by: jkirkham on November 10, 2017, 11:29:37 AM
I agree with everyone that you used way too much dark malt. 1 lb chocolate malt and 4 oz black malt would be plenty of dark malt. Black malt is very intense and 1 lb of it on top of 2 lbs of chocolate malt would make for a very acidic mash, as Denny said. Also, consider that fermentation temperature will almost always be 4-8 degrees warmer than ambient temperature. In my experience, 4 degrees for lagers and 6 degrees for ales is pretty typical. Your fermometer wasn't lying to you.

My advice for next time: try out a recipe calculating site like brewtoad to help you at the planning stage. I also recommend using published recipes for inspiration. The AHA site has plenty of great recipes to check out.

My advice for this batch: give it a few more days or a week and see how it is. Don't try to doctor it; that has never been effective at managing off flavors, IME.

Too much dark malt is where my head is right now too. Not on the yeast at all as some suggested. My house fluctuates in temp because it’s starting to get cold. I do not think this fermentation was ever really too high in temp, at least, not for more than half of the fermentation.

I do use a beer calculator, BeerSmith, but never remember seeing anything about this batches ph. I also look for recipes on the aha and tweak them.

This beer has been in secondary for 4 full days now.

I think I might keg this weekend and see what happens.

Many people were talking about the turn around time on this beer, but, it will still get me drunk and if it’s undrinkable, a valuable lesson will be learned. I was not the most patient with this fermentation, but like I said, it took off like a rocket ship and has been sitting in the mid 60s since it stopped.