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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: Stevie on November 22, 2017, 12:22:29 AM

Title: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Stevie on November 22, 2017, 12:22:29 AM
Wonder how this will go. I’d put my faith in Whitelabs considering contamination sources are high in production breweries, but they have credibility issues after the Sacc Trois and reported Sacc contamination’s in their Brett. That strain is a nightmare strain as it can covert starch on its own. If it did come from Whitelabs, they may have a big issue.

https://www.brewbound.com/news/left-hand-files-lawsuit-white-labs-contaminated-yeast
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: el_capitan on November 22, 2017, 12:28:58 AM
Interesting, Stevis.  I've never heard of that particular strain of yeast.  It seems like White Labs would be on top of their production, but there's not enough info in that article to really make a judgment call.  It will be interesting to see how this shakes down. 
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 22, 2017, 12:50:41 AM
Wow, hadn't heard. I'm curious to see how this plays out. I agree the Sacc Trois fiasco comes to mind. But though Left Hand hasn't had any more issues since switching yeast vendors, who's to say that wasn't from a likely thorough sanitizing of the brewery? Seems a tough one to prove. OTOH I'm not an expert on diastaticus either.
Title: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Stevie on November 22, 2017, 01:11:25 AM
I just remember Mark V talking about it.

ETA - found it
First high gravity attempt
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=40079&share_tid=19879&share_pid=252825&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehomebrewersassociation%2Eorg%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D19879%2Emsg252825%23msg252825&share_type=t
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: ethinson on November 22, 2017, 02:35:48 PM
We just started testing for diastaticus... it is nasty stuff... but it's also considered a "saccharomyces wild yeast".  It comes from the air and the environment, I don't think anyone cultures it (to my knowledge, I'm sure I'm wrong). 

I wouldn't doubt that it may have come from White Labs, but I think they are going to have a really, really hard time proving it...
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: reverseapachemaster on November 22, 2017, 02:47:11 PM
We just started testing for diastaticus... it is nasty stuff... but it's also considered a "saccharomyces wild yeast".  It comes from the air and the environment, I don't think anyone cultures it (to my knowledge, I'm sure I'm wrong). 

I wouldn't doubt that it may have come from White Labs, but I think they are going to have a really, really hard time proving it...

From what I've read elsewhere they identified the unwelcomed guest in unused pitches from white labs that matched what was found in beers after the fact.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Phil_M on November 22, 2017, 03:23:59 PM
Doesn't really play into the lawsuit at all, but I'm surprised that a brewery of Left Hand's size isn't managing their own yeast...
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Stevie on November 22, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
Doesn't really play into the lawsuit at all, but I'm surprised that a brewery of Left Hand's size isn't managing their own yeast...
I’m not, but they should have a QC person/microbiologist checking every point in the prices.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: denny on November 22, 2017, 03:50:35 PM
FWIW, this is not the first time the finger has been pointed at White Labs for this.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 22, 2017, 05:03:13 PM
The last two days have been educational. Many web searches later, I have more understanding of this yeast strain. Some say 3711 is of this type, maybe most Saison yeasts. Have you ever asked yourself how does ir reach those crazy low finishing gravitates? These yeasts look like normal brewers yeast under the microscope. They can be detected through DNA tests. They grow slowly at normal beer temps. If the beer is warm, on the shelf, they grow faster. They have a Belgian phenolic character. Those last two are Saison like characters. The yeast excrete an enzyme that breaks the starch down to sugars externally, then the sugars are absorbed by the yeast.

It turns out Bell’s did a MBAA presentation a while back,mas they had an issue. The presentation is in the BA members area.  They were said to have clued in Goose Island to their problem with BCS, when I was on a brewery tour.

If you want to fall down a rabbit hole, search on “Bell’s Diastaticus”

Hey, Belle Saison is one of these critters. Some say it is dry 3711.
http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/product-details/belle-saison-beer-yeast/

ProBrewer
http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?69995-Refermentation-in-Packaged-beer-due-to-Diastaticus
Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBrewery/comments/5cx15c/qc_folks_any_experience_testing_for_s_diastaticus/






Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Stevie on November 22, 2017, 05:11:46 PM
The craziness we will learn with all the new DNA testing.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 22, 2017, 06:04:36 PM
The craziness we will learn with all the new DNA testing.
Agreed.

Edit. - Mark also said that Iodophors or beach are broad spectrum, and will kill yeast and Brett. Heat is another strategy for materials that can endure it.

If you use Brett or Saison yeasts, it would be prudent to give a sanitizing cycle with something besides Star San.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Wilbur on November 22, 2017, 06:08:32 PM
Kind of tough to claim lost market share when many established breweries are losing market share to newer craft breweries. If be interested to hear of there were any factors that lead to it affecting so many batches, but we probably won't get that part of the story. Hopefully they reach a settlement that works well for both companies.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Stevie on November 22, 2017, 06:38:46 PM
The craziness we will learn with all the new DNA testing.
Agreed.

Edit. - Mark also said that Iodophors or beach are broad spectrum, and will kill yeast and Brett. Heat is another strategy for materials that can endure it.

If you use Brett or Saison yeasts, it would be prudent to give a sanitizing cycle with something besides Star San.
No doubt. I’ve been using iodophor for fermenters, kegs and any yeast handling, but not racking equipment.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: a10t2 on November 22, 2017, 11:01:39 PM
If you use Brett or Saison yeasts, it would be prudent to give a sanitizing cycle with something besides Star San.

IME, a solely acid-based sanitizer can't be relied on to give brewery-level sanitation (let's say 4σ) even for Saccharomyces spp.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 23, 2017, 02:28:21 AM
If you use Brett or Saison yeasts, it would be prudent to give a sanitizing cycle with something besides Star San.

IME, a solely acid-based sanitizer can't be relied on to give brewery-level sanitation (let's say 4σ) even for Saccharomyces spp.
+1
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: majorvices on November 25, 2017, 01:42:09 PM
Unfortunately it has happened with Wyeast too. Tom Schmidlin and I had the exact same problem with the exact same strain and the nexact same time that we corroborated about at the CBC this year. That problem cost the company over $50K (easily) in dumped product and an untold amount in falling sales from that particular beer. Another time I had an overnight pitch from Wyeast show up DOA and they refused to replace or refund it. Surprised Left Hand doesn't have a sophisticated enough yeast lab to plate/slant and grow up their own strains.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: BrewBama on November 26, 2017, 01:56:30 PM
I guess this all negates their term “Pure Pitch”.


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Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: tommymorris on November 26, 2017, 05:24:27 PM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: ethinson on November 27, 2017, 02:43:34 PM
We just started testing for diastaticus... it is nasty stuff... but it's also considered a "saccharomyces wild yeast".  It comes from the air and the environment, I don't think anyone cultures it (to my knowledge, I'm sure I'm wrong). 

I wouldn't doubt that it may have come from White Labs, but I think they are going to have a really, really hard time proving it...

From what I've read elsewhere they identified the unwelcomed guest in unused pitches from white labs that matched what was found in beers after the fact.

Wow... that makes it a little more cut and dry... yikes.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: majorvices on November 30, 2017, 01:48:19 AM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 30, 2017, 03:08:30 AM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Do you make some QA checks as you grow up? Just asking as to why that is better for you.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: majorvices on November 30, 2017, 11:36:18 AM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Do you make some QA checks as you grow up? Just asking as to why that is better for you.

There are multiple reasons why it is better, I can get packs of yeast within a week WL and WY were taking sometimes 4-6 weeks or longer to get me a pitch and when one showed up DOA that was a real problem. As far as quality checks, everything acting "normal" is a pretty big deal, once I have the pitch grown up I will do a cell count/viability, check for misshapen cells and do a sensory evaluation. If everything checks out I will pitch either into a 15 or 20 bbl batch depending on what I am trying to do. Takes me a week to go from a single pack of yeast to a 20 bbl pitch so time saving is huge and I have started a regular rotation so as to keep better track of generations.

Having the problems with WY has forced me to start taking more control of my yeast in house so that is a good thing but still smarting from the issues I had from them last year.

I still primarily use WL and WY, but also use Yeast Bay and Imperial.  I definitely think that the explosion of craft beer has caused a strain on the yeast companies. I still trust all of their products but I do not think they are infallible.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 30, 2017, 12:35:30 PM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Do you make some QA checks as you grow up? Just asking as to why that is better for you.

There are multiple reasons why it is better, I can get packs of yeast within a week WL and WY were taking sometimes 4-6 weeks or longer to get me a pitch and when one showed up DOA that was a real problem. As far as quality checks, everything acting "normal" is a pretty big deal, once I have the pitch grown up I will do a cell count/viability, check for misshapen cells and do a sensory evaluation. If everything checks out I will pitch either into a 15 or 20 bbl batch depending on what I am trying to do. Takes me a week to go from a single pack of yeast to a 20 bbl pitch so time saving is huge and I have started a regular rotation so as to keep better track of generations.

Having the problems with WY has forced me to start taking more control of my yeast in house so that is a good thing but still smarting from the issues I had from them last year.

I still primarily use WL and WY, but also use Yeast Bay and Imperial.  I definitely think that the explosion of craft beer has caused a strain on the yeast companies. I still trust all of their products but I do not think they are infallible.

Thanks, kind of what I was thinking you did.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on December 13, 2017, 03:19:10 AM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Do you make some QA checks as you grow up? Just asking as to why that is better for you.

There are multiple reasons why it is better, I can get packs of yeast within a week WL and WY were taking sometimes 4-6 weeks or longer to get me a pitch and when one showed up DOA that was a real problem. As far as quality checks, everything acting "normal" is a pretty big deal, once I have the pitch grown up I will do a cell count/viability, check for misshapen cells and do a sensory evaluation. If everything checks out I will pitch either into a 15 or 20 bbl batch depending on what I am trying to do. Takes me a week to go from a single pack of yeast to a 20 bbl pitch so time saving is huge and I have started a regular rotation so as to keep better track of generations.

Having the problems with WY has forced me to start taking more control of my yeast in house so that is a good thing but still smarting from the issues I had from them last year.

I still primarily use WL and WY, but also use Yeast Bay and Imperial.  I definitely think that the explosion of craft beer has caused a strain on the yeast companies. I still trust all of their products but I do not think they are infallible.
I bought yeast only 4 times in 7 years. As long as I get flavor profile what I want and get good performance, there is no need for new pitch. It takes up to 6 generations till yeast starts performing to its best.

I know of much smaller breweries then Left Hand that have yeast propagator. I am very surprise their lack of control
On the front end.


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Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 13, 2017, 01:10:53 PM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Do you make some QA checks as you grow up? Just asking as to why that is better for you.

There are multiple reasons why it is better, I can get packs of yeast within a week WL and WY were taking sometimes 4-6 weeks or longer to get me a pitch and when one showed up DOA that was a real problem. As far as quality checks, everything acting "normal" is a pretty big deal, once I have the pitch grown up I will do a cell count/viability, check for misshapen cells and do a sensory evaluation. If everything checks out I will pitch either into a 15 or 20 bbl batch depending on what I am trying to do. Takes me a week to go from a single pack of yeast to a 20 bbl pitch so time saving is huge and I have started a regular rotation so as to keep better track of generations.

Having the problems with WY has forced me to start taking more control of my yeast in house so that is a good thing but still smarting from the issues I had from them last year.

I still primarily use WL and WY, but also use Yeast Bay and Imperial.  I definitely think that the explosion of craft beer has caused a strain on the yeast companies. I still trust all of their products but I do not think they are infallible.
I bought yeast only 4 times in 7 years. As long as I get flavor profile what I want and get good performance, there is no need for new pitch. It takes up to 6 generations till yeast starts performing to its best.

I know of much smaller breweries then Left Hand that have yeast propagator. I am very surprise their lack of control
On the front end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good to hear from you again.
Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on December 14, 2017, 02:43:11 AM
I read forum as much as time permits. Thank you for stopping my and trying our beers.


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Title: Re: Left Hand Suing Whitelabs
Post by: majorvices on December 15, 2017, 11:10:56 AM
I still use White Labs and Wyeast without fear.

Yeah me too I just don't spend $500+ dollars for a 20 bbl pitch anymore, I grow yeast up from packs.
Do you make some QA checks as you grow up? Just asking as to why that is better for you.

There are multiple reasons why it is better, I can get packs of yeast within a week WL and WY were taking sometimes 4-6 weeks or longer to get me a pitch and when one showed up DOA that was a real problem. As far as quality checks, everything acting "normal" is a pretty big deal, once I have the pitch grown up I will do a cell count/viability, check for misshapen cells and do a sensory evaluation. If everything checks out I will pitch either into a 15 or 20 bbl batch depending on what I am trying to do. Takes me a week to go from a single pack of yeast to a 20 bbl pitch so time saving is huge and I have started a regular rotation so as to keep better track of generations.

Having the problems with WY has forced me to start taking more control of my yeast in house so that is a good thing but still smarting from the issues I had from them last year.

I still primarily use WL and WY, but also use Yeast Bay and Imperial.  I definitely think that the explosion of craft beer has caused a strain on the yeast companies. I still trust all of their products but I do not think they are infallible.
I bought yeast only 4 times in 7 years. As long as I get flavor profile what I want and get good performance, there is no need for new pitch. It takes up to 6 generations till yeast starts performing to its best.

I know of much smaller breweries then Left Hand that have yeast propagator. I am very surprise their lack of control
On the front end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's incredible Leos but that wouldn't work for my brewery. I can get a heck of a lot of gens from the lager strain but our Belgian strain starts to mutate after about 4-6 gens and we don't reuse yeast after a SG of 1.065 usually. We also do a lot of one off batches through out the year that use strains other than our 2 house strains. We will also hopefully be pushing 10,000 bbls next year so yeast management is going to become even more critical.