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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: trapae on November 29, 2017, 08:02:35 pm

Title: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: trapae on November 29, 2017, 08:02:35 pm
I recently brewed the below recipe. I don’t have any experience with Vienna malt but the beer has a slightly sweet finish both me and my wife thinks takes slightly like cherry. Not an off flavor I don’t think and it’s a great beer.  The only thing that I can think of is it might be the Vienna malt? Anyone have any input?

Bitterness: 20.1 IBUs   Boil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.052
Est FG: 1.009
ABV: 5.6%

Ingredients

7 lbs 14.61 oz   Vienna Malt
3 lbs 6.26 oz   Pilsner (2 Row)
0.50 oz           Perle [8.0%] - Boil 60 min
0.51 oz           Tettnang [4.5%] - Boil 45 min
1.00                Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15 min)
1.00 tsp           Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15 min)
0.50 oz           Tettnang [4.5%] - Boil 0 min
Starter.             Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007)

Mash 60 min @ 152
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: dmtaylor on November 29, 2017, 10:22:52 pm
I have definitely detected cherry in German lagers before like marzen which often use Munich and Vienna malts, or personally I would describe it more as almond, which makes sense since both cherries and almonds are closely related stone fruits -- an almond is really the seed from inside a peach pit.  While I think the cherry/almond character is inconsistent and not always present every time these malts are used, it is certainly a possible attribute on occasion.  I enjoy this character when present and hope you do too.  Very perceptive, well done.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: erockrph on November 29, 2017, 10:35:16 pm
I've picked this up too, mainly as a retronasal aroma. That's usually my sign that I overshot the amount of Aromatic malt in my recipe and back it off by about a 3rd for the next go around.

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Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: The Beerery on November 30, 2017, 05:26:09 am
Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich.  Cherry in Vienna, sounds like oxidation.  Vienna should be doughy.


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Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: The Beerery on November 30, 2017, 06:11:02 am
I have definitely detected cherry in German lagers before like marzen which often use Munich and Vienna malts, or personally I would describe it more as almond, which makes sense since both cherries and almonds are closely related stone fruits -- an almond is really the seed from inside a peach pit.  While I think the cherry/almond character is inconsistent and not always present every time these malts are used, it is certainly a possible attribute on occasion.  I enjoy this character when present and hope you do too.  Very perceptive, well done.

Cheers.


Do you have a specific brewery example?  The reason I ask is that I can’t think of any of them off the top of my head that actually uses Vienna. 

Most of not all are
Märzen
Pils/ Munich ( some toss in caramunich)

Festbier
Pils and carahell (or caramunich)

I am not sure where the Vienna comes from in the US?  Maybe to make up for maltiness that we can’t get with beers made here?

Vienna is used almost exclusively in Austrian beers ( I wonder why!)




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Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: dmtaylor on November 30, 2017, 06:58:33 am
It's just a guess.  I do not have the real recipes from the German breweries.  The one I was thinking of was Spaten's marzen.  There was one time, one time, when I swore it tasted like almond.  Maybe twice.  Other times, I have not picked this flavor out of the same beer.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: BUZZSAW52 on November 30, 2017, 07:06:41 am



[/quote]Do you have a specific brewery example?  The reason I ask is that I can’t think of any of them off the top of my head that actually uses Vienna. 

Most of not all are
Märzen
Pils/ Munich ( some toss in caramunich)

Festbier
Pils and carahell (or caramunich)

I am not sure where the Vienna comes from in the US?  Maybe to make up for maltiness that we can’t get with beers made here?

Vienna is used almost exclusively in Austrian beers ( I wonder why!)
[/quote]

DuClaw Mad Bishop uses Vienna. Pils for a Marzen??? Are you thinking 2 row?
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: BUZZSAW52 on November 30, 2017, 07:09:03 am
I find English yeast to give off fruity flavors. Use a different yeast next time you brew it and I bet you won't taste cherry. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: The Beerery on November 30, 2017, 08:10:14 am
Do you have a specific brewery example?  The reason I ask is that I can’t think of any of them off the top of my head that actually uses Vienna. 

Most of not all are
Märzen
Pils/ Munich ( some toss in caramunich)

Festbier
Pils and carahell (or caramunich)

I am not sure where the Vienna comes from in the US?  Maybe to make up for maltiness that we can’t get with beers made here?

Vienna is used almost exclusively in Austrian beers ( I wonder why!)
[/quote]

DuClaw Mad Bishop uses Vienna. Pils for a Marzen??? Are you thinking 2 row?
[/quote]

I am talking of the real German Breweries. Pils is 2row.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: trapae on November 30, 2017, 08:11:55 am
 I actually didn’t think about the yeast.  I’ve used 007 in IPAs and stouts/porters but not a clean beer like this. Could’ve been that I guess but it tastes more like a malt flavor. I fermented it at 65. As far as oxidation I would be surprised if it’s that. I push all of my beer with CO2 and keg it in a keg that I purge starSan out with CO2 in so my beer never touches any oxygen. Anyway the taste is not unpleasant, just trying to figure out for further recipes.  My wife and her friends absolutely love it.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: dmtaylor on November 30, 2017, 08:32:18 am
I forgot to consider the yeast also.  WLP007 should generate some fruit.  Could be from that, but hard to say for sure.

If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.  If you wife and friends love it, keep on brewing it!
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: The Beerery on November 30, 2017, 10:49:14 am
I actually didn’t think about the yeast.  I’ve used 007 in IPAs and stouts/porters but not a clean beer like this. Could’ve been that I guess but it tastes more like a malt flavor. I fermented it at 65. As far as oxidation I would be surprised if it’s that. I push all of my beer with CO2 and keg it in a keg that I purge starSan out with CO2 in so my beer never touches any oxygen. Anyway the taste is not unpleasant, just trying to figure out for further recipes.  My wife and her friends absolutely love it.

The problem there in lies. I feel like I need to spread this word.

All beer in this world is oxidized, ALL OF IT. It's just a matter of how much. Somehow in the homebrew rhetoric oxidation has become synonymous with cardboard and sherry. Which is not wrong, but that is the last stage of oxidation, with many stages in between. For instance degradation of hop aroma is one, sweetness coming forward is one, flavors changing, etc. The curve ball is some oxidation effects don't even need oxygen! Fats, lipids, heavy metals ( copper, iron, etc) all can cause oxidation in the beer without even touching oxygen. Now even the smallest traces (50ppb) of oxygen start off chain reactions. The commercial standard for DO in the package is 50ppb, with 150ppb being the max upper limit before accelerated staling. Just so we are on the same page do you know how minuscule 50ppb of oxygen is?? lets say you laid out 1 BILLION skittles. Out of those 1B, you stole 50, thats the scale we are talking about.
https://www.hach.com/asset-get.download.jsa?id=50544340479
So anyone with a handy dandy DO meter can do these tests (I happen to have one), if you ferment to final gravity, you purged your keg out with starsan (don't forget tap water has 8-12ppm o2 in it so depending how much you left behind), then you force carbonated the beer with the co2 from your bottle (depending on co2 purity you are looking at 10-50ppm 02 in it). You most likely picked up about 2-4PPM(20 times above the recommended level for accelerated staling) of o2 on your transfer, sani-water, and force carb. You will continue to add o2 as you dispense the keg as well.

So everyone who uses this process immediately puts their beer in accelerated status, does it taste like cardboard and sherry, not yet, does it tastes as good as it could/should? Nope and its easily verifiable with the DO meter. The nice part is there are easy ways to mitigate this, but the flipside is, it's hard to get them across cause everyone thinks that they don't have oxidized beer to start with!

Ok I am off my soap box now and will let you guys carry on.

I agree if you like it thats fine. Oxidation brings flavors forward that people prefer. However your beer (and mine) is still oxidizing as we speak.

Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: Todd H. on November 30, 2017, 12:57:49 pm
No, I've gotten a cherry flavour from Red-X, but really just toastiness from Vienna.
My last batch used 007, and I swear I detect a little ethyl acetate, which has a sweet smell to it.  Maybe you're getting something similar?
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: Stevie on November 30, 2017, 12:59:39 pm
For sure cherry in RedX. I find it distracting in dry beers, ok in malty beers
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 30, 2017, 02:23:30 pm
So I have to ask, what type of cherries? Maraschino, Bing, Rainer, Balaton, Montmorency? Or just generic cherry.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: Stevie on November 30, 2017, 02:29:32 pm
In red X I get a dark cherry flavor. So bing?
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: HoosierBrew on November 30, 2017, 03:26:57 pm
In red X I get a dark cherry flavor. So bing?

Same here - dark cherry. I also agree with liking it in some malty beers, not so much in a drier or hoppy beer.

Edit - As to the OP, sounds like some yeast derived ester as being likely.
Title: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: BrewBama on November 30, 2017, 03:41:33 pm
I have definitely detected cherry in German lagers before like marzen which often use Munich and Vienna malts, or personally I would describe it more as almond, which makes sense since both cherries and almonds are closely related stone fruits -- an almond is really the seed from inside a peach pit.  While I think the cherry/almond character is inconsistent and not always present every time these malts are used, it is certainly a possible attribute on occasion.  I enjoy this character when present and hope you do too.  Very perceptive, well done.

Cheers.

Though I agree almonds are closely related to peaches, they are not the seed from inside a peach pit. They are a distinctly different drupe grown from a distinctly different tree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond 

Cheers!



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Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 30, 2017, 05:45:08 pm
In red X I get a dark cherry flavor. So bing?

I will be on the lookout for that, now that it is narrowed down.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: dmtaylor on November 30, 2017, 05:51:16 pm
Though I agree almonds are closely related to peaches, they are not the seed from inside a peach pit. They are a distinctly different drupe grown from a distinctly different tree. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almond 

Peach and almond are very closely related.  I haven't eaten almond fruit before, but I'm willing to guess that it resembles a small peach.  Maybe more dry or not as sweet or something.  Pretty dang close.  One was selected for the quality of its fuzzy fruit, and the other for the quality of its inner nut.  I could be wrong but that's the impression I get.

Cherry on the other hand is a more distant cousin.  We wouldn't dream of cracking a cherry pit open and eating whatever is inside it.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: blatz on December 01, 2017, 10:16:31 am
Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich. 

that has always been my take.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: Iliff Ave on December 01, 2017, 10:50:41 am
Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich. 

that has always been my take.

What color rating of Munich? Isn't "dark" is dependent on maltster?
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: blatz on December 01, 2017, 10:53:06 am
Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich. 

that has always been my take.

What color rating of Munich? Isn't "dark" is dependent on maltster?

most german maltsters' dark or II munich is in the 8-10L range.  I predominantly use Weyermann's which is in that range. 

Some American maltsters dark is much higher L and is more like a specialty grain rather than a base malt.  I wouldn't use a high % of any of those.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: Iliff Ave on December 01, 2017, 11:18:30 am
Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich. 

that has always been my take.

What color rating of Munich? Isn't "dark" is dependent on maltster?

most german maltsters' dark or II munich is in the 8-10L range.  I predominantly use Weyermann's which is in that range. 

Some American maltsters dark is much higher L and is more like a specialty grain rather than a base malt.  I wouldn't use a high % of any of those.

Okay thanks. I use Weyermann as well so just wanted to confirm that my dark was the same as your dark...
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 01, 2017, 11:21:28 am
Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich. 

that has always been my take.

What color rating of Munich? Isn't "dark" is dependent on maltster?

most german maltsters' dark or II munich is in the 8-10L range.  I predominantly use Weyermann's which is in that range. 

Some American maltsters dark is much higher L and is more like a specialty grain rather than a base malt.  I wouldn't use a high % of any of those.

Durst and Avangard have Dark Munich at 40 EBC which is 14.7 Lovibond.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: erockrph on December 02, 2017, 08:49:56 am
So I have to ask, what type of cherries? Maraschino, Bing, Rainer, Balaton, Montmorency? Or just generic cherry.
For me, it's even less specific. It's kind of a generic stonefruit that's in between Amaretto and Bing cherry. It leans towards the darker cherry/almond side of stonefruit rather than the brighter peach/plum/nectarine side to me.

Cherry in german lagers is dark Munich. 

that has always been my take.

What color rating of Munich? Isn't "dark" is dependent on maltster?

most german maltsters' dark or II munich is in the 8-10L range.  I predominantly use Weyermann's which is in that range. 

Some American maltsters dark is much higher L and is more like a specialty grain rather than a base malt.  I wouldn't use a high % of any of those.

Durst and Avangard have Dark Munich at 40 EBC which is 14.7 Lovibond.

For comparison, Dingeman's Aromatic is listed at 19L IIRC, so you're getting way up there with some of those really dark Munich malts.

FWIW, I get this character the strongest with Aromatic malt, but I've also gotten it pretty strongly in the past in dunkels and doppelbocks I've brewed with a large amount of Dark Munich. I wasn't really checking the L/EBC really closely of my Munich's back then, but I'm wondering now whether I was using an exceptionally dark one.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: BitterItDown on December 02, 2017, 09:02:32 am
I'm oxidizing as we speak, my girlfriend thinks I smell like cherry.  The way I see it, I've got about 40 more years before this oxidation catches up with me and I wind up 6 feet under. ;)

IMO fresh malt generally does not give hints of fruit - more nutty, bready, crackery, honey, but perhaps darker kilned malt would - though I have no doubt that these notes can come from oxidation when the sugars and melanoidins are in an ethanol solution (i.e. beer).
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: Phil_M on December 02, 2017, 06:09:53 pm
FWIW, the most disgusting beer I've ever had was an Ayinger Doppelbock that was very old and ill-handled.

Tasted like cough medicine cherry grossness. One of the few beers I've dumped.
Title: Re: Anyone think Vienna Malt tastes slightly sweet like cherry?
Post by: klickitat jim on January 02, 2018, 10:45:12 am
I wonder if it could also be certain people sensitive to ethyl benzoate. Probably benzoic acid is present in Vienna and Munich malts and it's being esterized.