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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: skyler on December 01, 2017, 04:02:43 AM

Title: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: skyler on December 01, 2017, 04:02:43 AM
My system was set up with 10-12 gallon batch-sparged batches in mind. It's a 17-gallon kettle and a 70 qt cooler. However, lately I have been brewing more 5-6 gallon batches, which has led me to trying out the "no sparge" method, since I had extra space in the mash tun. Anyway, I got the idea to try a hochkurz mash since I noticed that I was waiting longer to heat up my strike water and because I recently had success with that process for lager brewing. The trick has been water chemistry - I am using brunwater to calculate the strike water, then calculating the complete water profile.

I am using about 1.35 qt strike water per lb of grain for the first rest, then the rest of the necessary water for the second rest.

The goal is 144F for 40 minutes, then 158 for 30. Since I have less water to heat up the first time, the net added time is maybe 5 minutes from a standard no-sparge and 10 minutes from a standard batch sparge. I'm still determining what, if anything, this adds to my beers, but I am getting good attenuation. Does anyone else do anything like this?
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: coolman26 on December 01, 2017, 04:41:53 AM
I’m going to try no sparge in a similar fashion. I too am reducing my batches and have a lot of room. My kettles are 25 gallon and my MT is 120qt. I do have a HEX coil in my HLT and plan to raise temps w my HERMS. I tried to do it infusion style and my beers were mega oxidized. I have since worked out my pump to be able to underlet to raise the temp. Much rather do it this way if I can get away with it. I’ve read people thought their beers improved when they went no sparge. I’m guessing it mostly comes from the lessened O2 exposure. I do like your process.
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: narcout on December 01, 2017, 07:40:06 AM
Does anyone else do anything like this?

Yes, I've been using a no sparge, hochkurz mash on all my beers for the last year (though I've been targeting 148° for 40 minutes and 162° for 30 minutes).
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: homoeccentricus on December 01, 2017, 01:31:55 PM
Almost all low oxygen brewers use a combination of no-sparge and Hochkurz. The scheme that I and quite a few others use is:

144 °F - 20 min
147 °F - 10 min
153 °F - 5 min
162 °F - 30 min
171 °F - 10 min

More explanation in http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pkjdf.pdf and http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pddvxvf.pdf
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: The Beerery on December 01, 2017, 02:09:12 PM
Almost all low oxygen brewers use a combination of no-sparge and Hochkurz. The scheme that I and quite a few others use is:

144 °F - 20 min
147 °F - 10 min
153 °F - 5 min
162 °F - 30 min
171 °F - 10 min

More explanation in http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pkjdf.pdf and http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pddvxvf.pdf

 8)
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: coolman26 on December 01, 2017, 05:52:18 PM
Almost all low oxygen brewers use a combination of no-sparge and Hochkurz. The scheme that I and quite a few others use is:

144 °F - 20 min
147 °F - 10 min
153 °F - 5 min
162 °F - 30 min
171 °F - 10 min

More explanation in http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pkjdf.pdf and http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pddvxvf.pdf

 8)
BR-549 did you start all this?


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Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: pkrone on December 04, 2017, 04:24:08 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: jeffy on December 04, 2017, 09:43:54 PM
Anybody feel like sharing their inside joke?
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 04:23:02 AM
Almost all low oxygen brewers use a combination of no-sparge and Hochkurz. The scheme that I and quite a few others use is:

144 °F - 20 min
147 °F - 10 min
153 °F - 5 min
162 °F - 30 min
171 °F - 10 min

More explanation in http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pkjdf.pdf and http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/pddvxvf.pdf

 8)

 ;D
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: stpug on December 07, 2017, 03:17:50 PM
Anybody feel like sharing their inside joke?

I may be wrong, but I don't think there's much "joke" in the posts.  I suspect the comments are more geared toward the "irony" of topics like these because two years ago some fools talked about ridiculous step mashing techniques along with other extravagant/useless methodologies. Flash forward 2 years, I see a lot of chatter about said step mashing and an incorporation of said extravagant/useless methodologies.

....but that's just a wild guess ;D
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: mainebrewer on December 07, 2017, 05:33:24 PM
Or maybe people just don't care enough to argue about topics like step mashing, LODO, etc.
Whatever the reason, I'm just glad postings about these kinds of topics don't blow up into 20 pages of posts regarding the pros and cons.
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: coolman26 on December 07, 2017, 08:12:04 PM
Anybody feel like sharing their inside joke?
No inside joke. I just used his initials, and the 549 part came from Hee Haw. Most are too young to remember that show. Just popped into my head. Step mashing and LODO have brought on a lot of new discussion, all for the good IMO. Enough to convince me to make a lot of changes to my brewery. My next batch will follow that same mash schedule. Not total LODO, but enough changes to make an incremental difference.


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Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: Robert on December 07, 2017, 11:49:40 PM
Step mashing seems to me a no brainer if you understand the goals.  It's been advocated (especially the "Hochkurz" mash) at least since Thausing at the end of the 19th c. and has long been standard practice.  But all you really need are two rests -- 146F and 162F -- vary the times to vary your wort profile --  then mash off.  As for LODO --  not going there.
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: Big Monk on December 08, 2017, 12:01:19 AM
Step mashing seems to me a no brainer if you understand the goals.  It's been advocated (especially the "Hochkurz" mash) at least since Thausing at the end of the 19th c. and has long been standard practice.  But all you really need are two rests -- 146F and 162F -- vary the times to vary your wort profile --  then mash off.  As for LODO --  not going there.

The intermediate β rests will give better conversion but I’d sign on to your statement in general. Thumbs up!
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: Robert on December 08, 2017, 12:15:26 AM
Thanks, that's what I suspected about the added steps.  I see the importance on a commercial scale.  As for me, I get yields around 72% or better, which I figure is north of 90% efficiency, good enough for me.  I'll happily toss in an extra half pound of malt and have a really stress-free brew day!
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: Big Monk on December 08, 2017, 02:15:13 PM
Thanks, that's what I suspected about the added steps.  I see the importance on a commercial scale.  As for me, I get yields around 72% or better, which I figure is north of 90% efficiency, good enough for me.  I'll happily toss in an extra half pound of malt and have a really stress-free brew day!

Right. It's actually also pretty important if you are going to pursue No-Sparge in order to get your conversion efficiency into the mid 90% range. Using multiple beta rests at 144, 147, and 152 helps to take maximum advantage of those rests and get you the most conversion possible.
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: Robert on December 08, 2017, 07:52:46 PM
To clarify, I do sparge, so the simpler program works for me, but I realize the OP is asking about no sparge.  I have used more elaborate mash programs and even when sparging they do boost efficiency, but the marginal difference isn't worth the effort to me.  But again, you know no sparge, I  don't. In either case, no matter what the beta program is, it's key to hold the alpha rest at 162°F in my experience, not lower, or you just don't get the glycoproteins you need.  Nor will you if you start the mash any lower than 144°F!
Title: Re: Hochkurz No-Sparge
Post by: The Beerery on December 08, 2017, 07:59:20 PM
To clarify, I do sparge, so the simpler program works for me, but I realize the OP is asking about no sparge.  I have used more elaborate mash programs and even when sparging they do boost efficiency, but the marginal difference isn't worth the effort to me.  But again, you know no sparge, I  don't. In either case, no matter what the beta program is, it's key to hold the alpha rest at 162°F in my experience, not lower, or you just don't get the glycoproteins you need.  Nor will you if you start the mash any lower than 144°F!

A man after my own heart. Prost!