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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: millstone on December 06, 2017, 01:25:17 PM

Title: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: millstone on December 06, 2017, 01:25:17 PM
So I’m getting a bit confused on the dosage amounts, maybe I’m just thick headed. I have read some say you treat the MASH water, others say the STRIKE water, can I assume strike water is the TOTAL water used, mash and spage, and the dosage is split and added to both and others say BATCH size? I do 8+ gallon batches, so if I only treat the mash water at a rate of 2gr/hl and I’m mashing in with 9.5 gallons I would use .72gr. My SPARGE water amount is 7 gallons, do I treat this with an additional .53gr of Brewtan B or would all of it go in with the mash, .72gr + .53gr? Lastly, in the boil, do I treat the wort amount in the BK, about 9.5 gallons or the BATCH size, 8 gallons?

Thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 06, 2017, 03:29:07 PM
The amounts I was given by a factory rep are in volume, not weight, so that's what I use.  1/4 tsp. per 5 gal. of mash and sparge water.  That means fpr 5 gal. of mash water you'd use 1/4 tsp. and fpr 3 gal. of sparge water you'd use a bit over 1/8 tsp.  Then 15 min. before end of boil 1/2 tsp. mixed with a bit of wort per 5 gal.  Using volume is OK in thise case because you just don't have to be tenth of a gram accurate.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 06, 2017, 08:58:41 PM
For weight measures, I use .75g in a BIAB 10 gal batch in the warmed strike water (13 gallons) just before adding the malt.  For the boil, I use 2g hydrated in about 15 ml of water for a few minutes until it becomes a clear solution and add that at 16 minutes prior to the end of the boil, then whirlfloc at 14 minutes.  I was told by Joe F. that he now suggests hydrating the boil addition before adding it to the boil (hydrated 2g in 15 ml solution for me) and waiting at least 2 minutes before adding any other clarifying agent.

I don't think you can go wrong on this, though, even if adding dry BTB directly to the boil.  Joe just said something about the overall reaction being better with hydration and then waiting on Whirlfloc addition.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: coolman26 on December 06, 2017, 09:29:01 PM
For weight measures, I use .75g in a BIAB 10 gal batch in the warmed strike water (13 gallons) just before adding the malt.  For the boil, I use 2g hydrated in about 15 ml of water for a few minutes until it becomes a clear solution and add that at 16 minutes prior to the end of the boil, then whirlfloc at 14 minutes.  I was told by Joe F. that he now suggests hydrating the boil addition before adding it to the boil (hydrated 2g in 15 ml solution for me) and waiting at least 2 minutes before adding any other clarifying agent.

I don't think you can go wrong on this, though, even if adding dry BTB directly to the boil.  Joe just said something about the overall reaction being better with hydration and then waiting on Whirlfloc addition.
Thanks for the detailed info. Mine is to arrive Friday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 04:40:45 AM
For weight measurements you can reference either the NS datasheet (2-6 g/hL for mash and boil) or the Wyeast datasheet (8g/1.17 hL Mash and 5g/1.17 hL Boil).

Just convert to g/gal and you’re all set.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: mainebrewer on December 07, 2017, 10:57:47 AM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: millstone on December 07, 2017, 12:54:53 PM
Thanks for the reply denny and clearing up my confusion, good to know that both the mash and the spare are treated separately, also I use weights because I’ve already got the gram scale out to measure the brewing salts so I will keep going with the Brewtan B.

According to the web there are 26.417205 gallons per hectoliter, so if I have 9.5 gallons mash water and use 2gm per hectoliter I get .72 grams for the mash water addition, Big Monk, would that be correct?  denny sounds like in your mash water your using 7gr/hl if 1 teaspoon = 5gr, closer to what Yeast is recommending and ynotbrusum your using about 1.5 gr/hl in your strike water (13 gallons), closer to the data sheet, just checking to see if my math is correct.

ynotbrusum, thanks for the tip on hydrating.

thanks everyone,

Tom
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 07, 2017, 12:55:59 PM
There should be a Brewtan-B dosage sticky for us old guys, who always are trying to find it.m ;)
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 01:20:54 PM
Thanks for the reply denny and clearing up my confusion, good to know that both the mash and the spare are treated separately, also I use weights because I’ve already got the gram scale out to measure the brewing salts so I will keep going with the Brewtan B.

According to the web there are 26.417205 gallons per hectoliter, so if I have 9.5 gallons mash water and use 2gm per hectoliter I get .72 grams for the mash water addition, Big Monk, would that be correct?  denny sounds like in your mash water your using 7gr/hl if 1 teaspoon = 5gr, closer to what Yeast is recommending and ynotbrusum your using about 1.5 gr/hl in your strike water (13 gallons), closer to the data sheet, just checking to see if my math is correct.

ynotbrusum, thanks for the tip on hydrating.

thanks everyone,

Tom

Wyeast's recommendation are pretty much in the range given by the manufacturer specifications:

WYEAST

MASH - 8 g/1.17 hl (6.84 g/hl) converts to 0.26 g/gal
BOIL - 6 g/1.17 hl (4.27 g/hl) converts to 0.16 g/gal

For 9.5 Gallons - 2.47 g in the mash

AJINOMOTO

MASH and BOIL - 2 to 6 g/hl converts to 0.08 to 0.23 g/gal

For 9.5 Gallons - 0.76 to 2.2 g in the mash

I agree with you on using weight based additions. You already have the scale out so why not!

To your OP question from above: It is a bit confusing I guess to determine how much to add. We dose the STRIKE water but we also do No-Sparge and recirculate. I would think you want to dose your STRIKE water.

Hope this helps...
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: millstone on December 07, 2017, 01:55:56 PM
hopfenundmalz, I agree on that sticky, seeing that I graduated in the upper 85 percentile of my high school class, and my age    ;D

and Big Monk, the information was extremely helpful, now onto adjusting my spreadsheet….
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 07, 2017, 03:29:59 PM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?

Yeah, I am.  My usage is based on recommendations from Joe Formanek.  He's not only the BTB product manager, he's won more awards using it than most people have ever seen.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 03:45:25 PM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?

Yeah, I am.  My usage is based on recommendations from Joe Formanek.  He's not only the BTB product manager, he's won more awards using it than most people have ever seen.

Is Joe with Natural Specialties? I'm wondering if the volumetric doses are just based off their weight based recommendations. It would make sense. Wyeast's recommendations and the Ajinomoto recommendations pretty much coordinate.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 07, 2017, 03:55:41 PM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?

Yeah, I am.  My usage is based on recommendations from Joe Formanek.  He's not only the BTB product manager, he's won more awards using it than most people have ever seen.

Is Joe with Natural Specialties? I'm wondering if the volumetric doses are just based off their weight based recommendations. It would make sense. Wyeast's recommendations and the Ajinomoto recommendations pretty much coordinate.

Joe is with Ajinomoto.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 03:59:21 PM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?

Yeah, I am.  My usage is based on recommendations from Joe Formanek.  He's not only the BTB product manager, he's won more awards using it than most people have ever seen.

Is Joe with Natural Specialties? I'm wondering if the volumetric doses are just based off their weight based recommendations. It would make sense. Wyeast's recommendations and the Ajinomoto recommendations pretty much coordinate.

Joe is with Ajinomoto.

So he probably just adapted his volumetric values from their weight based recommendations based on his experience. Good to know that using either stays true to Joe's recommendations.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 07, 2017, 04:02:46 PM
Joe is also in my homebrew club and he presented to our tech session on the BTB product - very informative and I agree with Denny - Joe has more awards than any brewer I know.  He indicated anecdotally that he has uses BTB on his homebrewed beers and obtained very good clarity and shelf stability (something like a year on one particular blond ale that held up perfectly well flavor-wise, as one example - of course it was refrigerated, too).
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 07, 2017, 04:10:19 PM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?

Yeah, I am.  My usage is based on recommendations from Joe Formanek.  He's not only the BTB product manager, he's won more awards using it than most people have ever seen.

Is Joe with Natural Specialties? I'm wondering if the volumetric doses are just based off their weight based recommendations. It would make sense. Wyeast's recommendations and the Ajinomoto recommendations pretty much coordinate.

Joe is with Ajinomoto.

So he probably just adapted his volumetric values from their weight based recommendations based on his experience. Good to know that using either stays true to Joe's recommendations.

Yeah, I assume that's what he's doing.  He's the BTB secialist for Ajinomoto, so I just do whatever he says!
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: mainebrewer on December 07, 2017, 05:24:44 PM
The Wyeast website instructions on BrewTan B recommend adding it 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.
Denny, I notice you're adding it around 15 mins before the end of boil.
Are you seeing good results doing it this way?

Yeah, I am.  My usage is based on recommendations from Joe Formanek.  He's not only the BTB product manager, he's won more awards using it than most people have ever seen.

Thanks, adding it around 15 min makes it easier to get the kettle finings in after adding the BrewTan B.
Wonder why Wyeast is recommending 0-5 min.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: mabrungard on December 07, 2017, 05:40:20 PM
Yeah, I assume that's what he's doing.  He's the BTB secialist for Ajinomoto, so I just do whatever he says!

When Denny and I were talking with Joe at CBC Philly, Joe said to NOT add BTB at the same time as when your Irish Moss is added. I can't recall if he said to add the BTB before or after the Irish Moss. I'm sure there is some sort of interaction since both of these materials have electrically-charged surface chemistry and they probably take each other out, if added together.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 05:41:11 PM
Wonder why Wyeast is recommending 0-5 min.

I would assume because Ajinomoto recommends it and that may be where they source it.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 07, 2017, 05:59:31 PM
Wonder why Wyeast is recommending 0-5 min.

I would assume because Ajinomoto recommends it and that may be where they source it.

But Ajinomoto recommended 15 min. to me and many others. 
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 06:10:30 PM
Wonder why Wyeast is recommending 0-5 min.

I would assume because Ajinomoto recommends it and that may be where they source it.

But Ajinomoto recommended 15 min. to me and many others.

I'm not sure. I'm just quoting their specifications sheet. Maybe they have updated it to reflect their new recommendations but haven't updated their official documents?

Both Wyeast and Ajinomoto quote 0-5 minutes in their data sheets which aligns better with the general recommendation that kettle finings be added at 15 minutes.

Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: mabrungard on December 07, 2017, 07:25:53 PM
So, finings at 15 min remaining and BTB at 5 min remaining.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 07, 2017, 07:36:17 PM
So, finings at 15 min remaining and BTB at 5 min remaining.

Joe says add BTB at least 1 min. before any other finings.  I do BTB at 15 and Whirlfloc at 5.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 07:41:17 PM
So, finings at 15 min remaining and BTB at 5 min remaining.

Joe says add BTB at least 1 min. before any other finings.  I do BTB at 15 and Whirlfloc at 5.

Are you able to reach out to Joe and get clarification on this. Ajinomoto says otherwise but their v1.0 specs were issued in 2008.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Stevie on December 07, 2017, 07:46:25 PM
Derek please. You know nothing has changed in brewing since the 1900s
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 07:49:37 PM
Derek please. You know nothing has changed in brewing since the 1900s

 ;D

I'm honestly just curious. We recommend people use BTB in the mash and boil when using Copper so I want to make sure we point them to the correct information.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: narcout on December 07, 2017, 07:56:49 PM
There's an interview with Joe in episode 25 of the Experimental Brewing Podcast.  He discusses the interactions of Brewtan B and kettle finings (including timing of additions).
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 08:18:30 PM
Here's brewcraft using a mixture of the Wyeast recommendations, the Ajinomoto datasheet recommendations, and the JF recommendations:

https://shop.brewcraftusa.com/brewtan-b-1-oz-pack-10391o
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 07, 2017, 08:38:24 PM
Here's brewcraft using a mixture of the Wyeast recommendations, the Ajinomoto datasheet recommendations, and the JF recommendations:

https://shop.brewcraftusa.com/brewtan-b-1-oz-pack-10391o

Not too surprising since Brewcraft asked me about it.  To eliminate the middle man, here's Joe's email so you can contact him directly....Formanekj@ajiusa.com
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 07, 2017, 09:18:45 PM
Here's brewcraft using a mixture of the Wyeast recommendations, the Ajinomoto datasheet recommendations, and the JF recommendations:

https://shop.brewcraftusa.com/brewtan-b-1-oz-pack-10391o

Not too surprising since Brewcraft asked me about it.  To eliminate the middle man, here's Joe's email so you can contact him directly....Formanekj@ajiusa.com

Very cool. Thank you. I’m not concerned about it myself as I have no reason to use it in the boil, but I’d be curious to know and relate it to people using it in the boil.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: millstone on December 07, 2017, 09:55:48 PM
I emailed Joe about where and when to use Brewtan-B and dosage. The following is Joe’s response.

I recommend using 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons of the water that you would use for the mash and sparge as well as 1/2 tsp per for a 5 gal batch of beer in the boil.  This gives you both protection from oxidation through iron chelation (by mash addition) as well as clarification (by boil addition).
Add the 1/2 tsp for the mash directly to the water.  Dissolve the 1/2 tsp for the boil in a small amount (1/4 cup or so) of your brewing water then add it to the boil 15 min before the end of the boil.  You can use this in conjunction with other fining agents like Polyclar or Whirlfloc, but be sure to add the Brewtan B at least 1 min before the other agents.
The official usage is ~4g/hl of wort. 

Tom
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 08, 2017, 03:33:24 PM
That's a bit different from his original recommendation to me, but not a lot.  I'll be switching to this recommended usage.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 08, 2017, 04:16:46 PM
So, to summarize:

VOLUME BASED DOSING

Mash - 1/2 tsp/5 gal (0.1 tsp/gal) for TOTAL water amount in mash (dose based on strike for no-sparge, dose based on strike+sparge if sparging) and add directly to water.

Boil - 1/2 tsp/5 gal (0.1 tsp/gal) in the boil. Dissolve boil dose  in 1/4 cup of water and add at 15 minutes. Add at least 1 minute prior to kettle fining agents.

(Note: Joe F.'s dosing seems to be based off of 4 g/hl or 0.15 g/gal)

WEIGHT BASED DOSING

Mash - Add between 0.08-0.26 g/gal (2-6.84 g/hl) directly to mash (dose based on strike for no-sparge, dose based on strike+sparge if sparging).

Boil - Add between 0.08-0.26 g/gal (2-6.84 g/hl) in the boil. Dissolve boil dose  in 1/4 cup of water and add at 15 minutes. Add at least 1 minute prior to kettle fining agents.


COMMENTS ON BOIL ADDITION

For those using Copper chillers, the boil addition is certainly worthwhile in addition to kettle fining agents due to the copper chiller's potential for participating in the Fenton reaction.

For those using Stainless chillers, the boil addition shouldn't be required. Adding Brewtan B in the boil in addition to kettle finings really serves no purpose in the absence of the requirement for metal chelation (from the copper). Since you have theoretically already treated both the mash and sparge water volume prior, you shouldn't require the metal chelation for your source water either once in the boil.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 08, 2017, 04:54:33 PM
So, to summarize:

VOLUME BASED DOSING

Mash - 1/2 tsp/5 gal (0.1 tsp/gal) for TOTAL water amount in mash (dose based on strike for no-sparge, dose based on strike+sparge if sparging) and add directly to water.

Boil - 1/2 tsp/5 gal (0.1 tsp/gal) in the boil. Dissolve boil dose  in 1/4 cup of water and add at 15 minutes. Add at least 1 minute prior to kettle fining agents.

(Note: Joe F.'s dosing seems to be based off of 4 g/hl or 0.15 g/gal)

WEIGHT BASED DOSING

Mash - Add between 0.08-0.26 g/gal (2-6.84 g/hl) directly to mash (dose based on strike for no-sparge, dose based on strike+sparge if sparging).

Boil - Add between 0.08-0.26 g/gal (2-6.84 g/hl) in the boil. Dissolve boil dose  in 1/4 cup of water and add at 15 minutes. Add at least 1 minute prior to kettle fining agents.


COMMENTS ON BOIL ADDITION

For those using Copper chillers, the boil addition is certainly worthwhile in addition to kettle fining agents due to the copper chiller's potential for participating in the Fenton reaction.

For those using Stainless chillers, the boil addition shouldn't be required. Adding Brewtan B in the boil in addition to kettle finings really serves no purpose in the absence of the requirement for metal chelation (from the copper). Since you have theoretically already treated both the mash and sparge water volume prior, you shouldn't require the metal chelation for your source water either once in the boil.

Last time I talked to Joe he was recommending dissolving the boil addition in wort rather than water.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 08, 2017, 04:58:11 PM
So, to summarize:

VOLUME BASED DOSING

Mash - 1/2 tsp/5 gal (0.1 tsp/gal) for TOTAL water amount in mash (dose based on strike for no-sparge, dose based on strike+sparge if sparging) and add directly to water.

Boil - 1/2 tsp/5 gal (0.1 tsp/gal) in the boil. Dissolve boil dose  in 1/4 cup of water and add at 15 minutes. Add at least 1 minute prior to kettle fining agents.

(Note: Joe F.'s dosing seems to be based off of 4 g/hl or 0.15 g/gal)

WEIGHT BASED DOSING

Mash - Add between 0.08-0.26 g/gal (2-6.84 g/hl) directly to mash (dose based on strike for no-sparge, dose based on strike+sparge if sparging).

Boil - Add between 0.08-0.26 g/gal (2-6.84 g/hl) in the boil. Dissolve boil dose  in 1/4 cup of water and add at 15 minutes. Add at least 1 minute prior to kettle fining agents.


COMMENTS ON BOIL ADDITION

For those using Copper chillers, the boil addition is certainly worthwhile in addition to kettle fining agents due to the copper chiller's potential for participating in the Fenton reaction.

For those using Stainless chillers, the boil addition shouldn't be required. Adding Brewtan B in the boil in addition to kettle finings really serves no purpose in the absence of the requirement for metal chelation (from the copper). Since you have theoretically already treated both the mash and sparge water volume prior, you shouldn't require the metal chelation for your source water either once in the boil.

Last time I talked to Joe he was recommending dissolving the boil addition in wort rather than water.

His email response above seems to differ.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 08, 2017, 05:03:20 PM
His email response above seems to differ.

Yeah, that's in line with what he originally told me.  I'll try to get an email off to him for clarification.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 08, 2017, 06:28:11 PM
OK, somewhere along the line I misunderstood...Joe says definitely mix with water for the boil.
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: Big Monk on December 08, 2017, 06:44:15 PM
OK, somewhere along the line I misunderstood...Joe says definitely mix with water for the boil.

Awesome. Since so many people are using it now across methods and styles, maybe you guys want to sticky the dosing and recommendations?
Title: Re: Brewtan-B dosage amounts confusion
Post by: denny on December 08, 2017, 06:59:56 PM
OK, somewhere along the line I misunderstood...Joe says definitely mix with water for the boil.

Awesome. Since so many people are using it now across methods and styles, maybe you guys want to sticky the dosing and recommendations?

I don't think we want to do that here...don't want to promote a particular product.  But I think it would be good to feature it prominently on the EB website.