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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: jc24 on December 16, 2017, 02:06:13 PM

Title: Oxidation
Post by: jc24 on December 16, 2017, 02:06:13 PM
I'm wondering why homebrewers are so worried about oxidation when we typically finish our beer within a couple months of brewing it? I can understand being more careful about something you're ageing for a year or so, but why do people go so mad for closed transfers etc. for something they're going to keg and finish in a few weeks?
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: el_capitan on December 16, 2017, 02:20:29 PM
I've always done what I can to limit oxidation, but I have not shifted my process toward the new low-oxygen brewing methods.  Mainly, this is because I do brew mainly for my own consumption and to share with friends.  I don't enter competitions, and I typically don't brew beers that need to age.  So my process suits my needs just fine.  In about 14 years of brewing, I've only had noticeable oxidation a couple times.  I really don't think it needs to be all or nothing.  But I would guess that others might have a stronger opinion.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 16, 2017, 02:38:33 PM
All beer is oxidized, the real question is how much time do you have before it’s un-drinkable.   

The other problem being no one really knows what oxidation is.  Everyone knows the last stages of it. Cardboard and sherry.  But there are a myriad of other stages before that, hat get little to no mention, namely in this case hop flavor drop off.  Remember that beer you sampled before kegging and it was so bright and vibrant? Imagine that for the entirety of the keg.  That’s what strict cold processes enhance.  The better you are.  The better the beer tastes for longer. 


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: ethinson on December 16, 2017, 02:55:39 PM
Based on scale of sizes, transfer methods, bottling methods, homebrew picks up a whole lot more oxygen than commercial beer.  At my brewery, our cut off limit for dissolved oxygen is 100 ppb.  Most of our beers are in the 20-40 range.  Towards they end of their shelf lives they start to show the signs of staling, cardboard, sherry, etc as mentioned above.  My own homebrews I've tested in the 1000s.  Maybe other people are better at it than me, but I know my stuff was going bad within like a month.  Homebrewers (except for those with conicals and pumps and CO2 pressure, basically nano-pro gear) will never get down below 100ppb. 

I recently stopped transferring my beer to secondary, which is one less time opening the carboy, one less time running it through a siphon, etc etc and it has made a huge difference in my beer quality, so even that reduction was worth it.  I may still be at 500ppb, but I'm half what I used to be.

To answer your original question point blank, people are obsessed with it because it makes such a huge and noticeable difference. 
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 16, 2017, 03:58:40 PM
Based on scale of sizes, transfer methods, bottling methods, homebrew picks up a whole lot more oxygen than commercial beer.  At my brewery, our cut off limit for dissolved oxygen is 100 ppb.  Most of our beers are in the 20-40 range.  Towards they end of their shelf lives they start to show the signs of staling, cardboard, sherry, etc as mentioned above.  My own homebrews I've tested in the 1000s.  Maybe other people are better at it than me, but I know my stuff was going bad within like a month.  Homebrewers (except for those with conicals and pumps and CO2 pressure, basically nano-pro gear) will never get down below 100ppb. 

I recently stopped transferring my beer to secondary, which is one less time opening the carboy, one less time running it through a siphon, etc etc and it has made a huge difference in my beer quality, so even that reduction was worth it.  I may still be at 500ppb, but I'm half what I used to be.

To answer your original question point blank, people are obsessed with it because it makes such a huge and noticeable difference.


How’s this for a homebrew

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171216/551068518abde9e58cf17e0fdfe40f2e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171216/b9911439ab6480f0c9647d2e81c3def9.jpg)


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: coolman26 on December 16, 2017, 05:21:28 PM
Based on scale of sizes, transfer methods, bottling methods, homebrew picks up a whole lot more oxygen than commercial beer.  At my brewery, our cut off limit for dissolved oxygen is 100 ppb.  Most of our beers are in the 20-40 range.  Towards they end of their shelf lives they start to show the signs of staling, cardboard, sherry, etc as mentioned above.  My own homebrews I've tested in the 1000s.  Maybe other people are better at it than me, but I know my stuff was going bad within like a month.  Homebrewers (except for those with conicals and pumps and CO2 pressure, basically nano-pro gear) will never get down below 100ppb. 

I recently stopped transferring my beer to secondary, which is one less time opening the carboy, one less time running it through a siphon, etc etc and it has made a huge difference in my beer quality, so even that reduction was worth it.  I may still be at 500ppb, but I'm half what I used to be.

To answer your original question point blank, people are obsessed with it because it makes such a huge and noticeable difference.


How’s this for a homebrew

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171216/551068518abde9e58cf17e0fdfe40f2e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171216/b9911439ab6480f0c9647d2e81c3def9.jpg)


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I’d comment, but I’m not sure what is happening with the inverted cans.


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 16, 2017, 08:04:38 PM
Based on scale of sizes, transfer methods, bottling methods, homebrew picks up a whole lot more oxygen than commercial beer.  At my brewery, our cut off limit for dissolved oxygen is 100 ppb.  Most of our beers are in the 20-40 range.  Towards they end of their shelf lives they start to show the signs of staling, cardboard, sherry, etc as mentioned above.  My own homebrews I've tested in the 1000s.  Maybe other people are better at it than me, but I know my stuff was going bad within like a month.  Homebrewers (except for those with conicals and pumps and CO2 pressure, basically nano-pro gear) will never get down below 100ppb. 

I recently stopped transferring my beer to secondary, which is one less time opening the carboy, one less time running it through a siphon, etc etc and it has made a huge difference in my beer quality, so even that reduction was worth it.  I may still be at 500ppb, but I'm half what I used to be.

To answer your original question point blank, people are obsessed with it because it makes such a huge and noticeable difference.


How’s this for a homebrew

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171216/551068518abde9e58cf17e0fdfe40f2e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171216/b9911439ab6480f0c9647d2e81c3def9.jpg)


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I’d comment, but I’m not sure what is happening with the inverted cans.


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They are being tested for TPO/DO.

Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: ethinson on December 16, 2017, 08:13:54 PM

I’d comment, but I’m not sure what is happening with the inverted cans.


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Right below the gauge is a needle that is piercing the can.  You can't do that on the side with the pop top so you come in through the bottom. The beer is then flowing through that meter which is measuring Dissolved Oxygen.

22 is really good.  I'm assuming that was in a keg before it was canned? (therefore with head pressure, CO2 transfer etc etc).
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 16, 2017, 08:21:24 PM

I’d comment, but I’m not sure what is happening with the inverted cans.


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Right below the gauge is a needle that is piercing the can.  You can't do that on the side with the pop top so you come in through the bottom. The beer is then flowing through that meter which is measuring Dissolved Oxygen.

22 is really good.  I'm assuming that was in a keg before it was canned? (therefore with head pressure, CO2 transfer etc etc).


Yes it was. 


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: jc24 on December 16, 2017, 09:39:13 PM
Thanks for the replies all. So it seems I was right in thinking it’s normally only an issue if the beer is going to be stored for more than a couple of months? Apart from loss of hop aroma - that makes sense, and that alone is enough to convince me to set up a closed transfer system...


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: Big Monk on December 16, 2017, 09:49:54 PM
Think of the hot side of the brewing process as filling a balloon with flavor. Think of the cold side as poking a hole in that balloon. No matter what methods you use or if you care about oxidation or don’t, success is ultimately judged by how small you make that hole.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: coolman26 on December 17, 2017, 03:25:04 AM
Learn something new everyday. Not bad for Homebrew.


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 17, 2017, 12:51:42 PM
Not bad for Homebrew.


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Not bad for homebrew! Not bad for a professional brewery  ;)

(https://scontent.ffcm1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24852565_1033795723429694_4378041344574808202_n.jpg?oh=b92163b2fda126313e3bcd5d53e91e68&oe=5ABB98F0)
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: coolman26 on December 17, 2017, 02:23:51 PM
Not bad for Homebrew.


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Not bad for homebrew! Not bad for a professional brewery  ;)

(https://scontent.ffcm1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24852565_1033795723429694_4378041344574808202_n.jpg?oh=b92163b2fda126313e3bcd5d53e91e68&oe=5ABB98F0)
Props, you’ve worked hard to get there! 


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: majorvices on December 17, 2017, 02:30:02 PM
22 PPB in a homebrew is absolutely amazing, I have to admit. We get about 40-60 in the BT after centrifuge. I've basically stopped centrifuging hoppy beers and can get under 20 in the BBT.

A lot of commercial breweries out there are very shocked at their DO levels once they pick up a DO meter.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 17, 2017, 02:33:10 PM
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 17, 2017, 02:39:27 PM
22 PPB in a homebrew is absolutely amazing, I have to admit. We get about 40-60 in the BT after centrifuge. I've basically stopped centrifuging hoppy beers and can get under 20 in the BBT.

A lot of commercial breweries out there are very shocked at their DO levels once they pick up a DO meter.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 17, 2017, 02:40:35 PM
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.

Only active yeast consume oxygen.

So lets run though this to all get on the same page. I have to make some assumptions here so please correct me when I am wrong.

Ferment to gravity in the fermenter. Allow beer to clear maybe cold crash?

Beer sits in the primary 2 weeks. The off to the bottling bucket we go. Stir in priming source. Add to bottle. Use oxygen abosorbjng caps, but you sanitize them with tap water and sani saturated with 8-12ppm o2, there by sanitizing them but robbing them of all their scavenging potential.

Beer takes on oxygen from the transfer to the bottle bucket, and being put in the bottle.
The beer is capped. With oxygen in the wort and in the headspace. It, after 1hr due to ideal gas laws has all the o2 of the headspace into the beer. Days pass before the yeast wakes up and starts consuming all the while letting in an additional 7ppb per day. You are under protection during this (and only this) phase. The yeast wake up after a week consume what it can. Eat the food source and go dormant. Every day 7ppb is added, this never stops in the bottle. If using swing tops double it.

I don’t disagree that you get another layer of protection then say a force carbed and counter pressure filled bottle. But you( proverbial you, all bottlers including any and ALL professionals) are fighting a winless battle.

The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 18, 2017, 05:08:17 PM
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.

Only active yeast consume oxygen.

So lets run though this to all get on the same page. I have to make some assumptions here so please correct me when I am wrong.

Ferment to gravity in the fermenter. Allow beer to clear maybe cold crash?

Beer sits in the primary 2 weeks. The off to the bottling bucket we go. Stir in priming source. Add to bottle. Use oxygen abosorbjng caps, but you sanitize them with tap water and sani saturated with 8-12ppm o2, there by sanitizing them but robbing them of all their scavenging potential.

Beer takes on oxygen from the transfer to the bottle bucket, and being put in the bottle.
The beer is capped. With oxygen in the wort and in the headspace. It, after 1hr due to ideal gas laws has all the o2 of the headspace into the beer. Days pass before the yeast wakes up and starts consuming all the while letting in an additional 7ppb per day. You are under protection during this (and only this) phase. The yeast wake up after a week consume what it can. Eat the food source and go dormant. Every day 7ppb is added, this never stops in the bottle. If using swing tops double it.

I don’t disagree that you get another layer of protection then say a force carbed and counter pressure filled bottle. But you( proverbial you, all bottlers including any and ALL professionals) are fighting a winless battle.

The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

For sure it is not that easy.  Your set up is very impressive.  I am considering the lactic reactor/sauergut route, but I have to get more disciplined on the hot side, first.  I have a closed loop RIMS arrangement, with silicone-gasketed mash tun cover, so I have made some strides on limiting O2 ingress (and I use only about a gram of NaMeta on my 10 gallon batches, along with BTB and CaCl2).  Baby steps....
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on December 24, 2017, 12:11:38 PM
Props for sure.  I am wondering if anyone has had bottle conditioned beers tested for DO levels.   Just thinking that the final scavenging in the carbonation phase would further reduce the average homebrew DO level rather than bottling from keg as most do.

Only active yeast consume oxygen.

So lets run though this to all get on the same page. I have to make some assumptions here so please correct me when I am wrong.

Ferment to gravity in the fermenter. Allow beer to clear maybe cold crash?

Beer sits in the primary 2 weeks. The off to the bottling bucket we go. Stir in priming source. Add to bottle. Use oxygen abosorbjng caps, but you sanitize them with tap water and sani saturated with 8-12ppm o2, there by sanitizing them but robbing them of all their scavenging potential.

Beer takes on oxygen from the transfer to the bottle bucket, and being put in the bottle.
The beer is capped. With oxygen in the wort and in the headspace. It, after 1hr due to ideal gas laws has all the o2 of the headspace into the beer. Days pass before the yeast wakes up and starts consuming all the while letting in an additional 7ppb per day. You are under protection during this (and only this) phase. The yeast wake up after a week consume what it can. Eat the food source and go dormant. Every day 7ppb is added, this never stops in the bottle. If using swing tops double it.

I don’t disagree that you get another layer of protection then say a force carbed and counter pressure filled bottle. But you( proverbial you, all bottlers including any and ALL professionals) are fighting a winless battle.

The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

You mention that 7 ppb/day accumulates in the bottled beer.  My question is what is the threshold i.e. how many ppb, where most people would detect oxidation?

Thanks in advance for your reply.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 24, 2017, 02:55:39 PM
Industry standards for accelerated staling is 150ppb (.15ppm). So 150/7 is 21ish days, that’s just taking into account bottle cap ingress and not all the other stuff.  Now will the beer taste worse or different after 3 weeks?  I have no idea.  I can tell a difference  from a can (at 22ppb) and a fresh pour of the tap(10ppb) in a triple blind so the thresholds can be small.  The canned beer isn’t bad, but it’s got subtle differences (for me that it’s slightly sweeter) that I can pick up on.  With that being said without the beers side by side it could possibly be harder to pick up. 


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: mabrungard on December 24, 2017, 03:32:53 PM
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: Village Taphouse on December 24, 2017, 03:43:30 PM
I'm surprised no one mentioned it but to the OP's question... it's not just a beer that will age that would benefit from lower-O2.  It sounds like oxidation will IMMEDIATELY rob a beer of deep & pleasing malt profile that a brewer would rather keep.  I am not a low-O2 brewer but I have started to move in that direction... I condition my malt, use bakers yeast and sugar in my mash and sparge water (2 hours) to get O2 levels lower, I carefully transfer to the MT with hi-temp tubing, I use SMB and ascorbic acid in the mash (BTB too), use a mash cap, stir less, boil at a lower level, etc., purge kegs prior to transfer, etc. in an attempt to lower O2.  My process and my equipment are crude by all comparisons.  It may be something that I phase in over time but I'm moving in that direction to see what difference it makes.  I still have some stirring and splashing in my process so I keep examining and adjusting.  As many people have mentioned about low-O2... just try it for yourself and see if you notice a difference in your beers.  If so, keep at it.  If not, don't worry about it.   
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: The Beerery on December 24, 2017, 05:00:25 PM
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.


I am not aware of a number but cans use a “2 fold seal” that is far superior than a crimp.    Everywhere I have seen say zero permeability for can seam ingress.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171224/41c2cc2111d234f31fd7bb68c3da73c5.jpg)


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: Andy Farke on December 24, 2017, 05:24:32 PM
Would sealing the cap with wax be another way to reduce/prevent oxygen ingress into the bottle after capping? (or I suppose sealing the can seam with wax, if you can at home?)
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 25, 2017, 02:07:12 PM
Would sealing the cap with wax be another way to reduce/prevent oxygen ingress into the bottle after capping? (or I suppose sealing the can seam with wax, if you can at home?)
Wax will permit less O2, how much is the question.
Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on December 26, 2017, 04:16:19 PM
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.


I am not aware of a number but cans use a “2 fold seal” that is far superior than a crimp.    Everywhere I have seen say zero permeability for can seam ingress.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171224/41c2cc2111d234f31fd7bb68c3da73c5.jpg)


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There is another thing that can lids/ends have caulk like sealer in the seam area. This caulk/sealer is double folded into the double seam to ensure 100% seal.


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Title: Re: Oxidation
Post by: brewinhard on December 27, 2017, 12:00:36 AM
The o2 permeability of steel is zero. But it’s not that easy either.

While metal has virtually zero permeability, its the sealing material or coating between the cap and bottle or can and lid that admits oxygen. Bryan mentions 7 ppb/day through a crown seal, but I'd be surprised if the juncture between can and lid has zero oxygen permeability. When you look at it, the surface area between can and lid is actually much larger than bottle and cap. Dependent upon the oxygen permeability of the can's coating, the oxygen ingress is probably not zero. Not being a can expert, I don't know what that answer is. But let's not stick our head in the sand on this issue.


I am not aware of a number but cans use a “2 fold seal” that is far superior than a crimp.    Everywhere I have seen say zero permeability for can seam ingress.


(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171224/41c2cc2111d234f31fd7bb68c3da73c5.jpg)


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Thanks for posting that diagram. Had no idea that was how it works. Very cool.