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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: James K on January 18, 2018, 01:17:19 AM

Title: Clarifying agents
Post by: James K on January 18, 2018, 01:17:19 AM
I am wondering the difference between some clarifying agents. I typically use whirl flock at 10 minutes or so and have also used gelatin in secondary instead of whirlflock. Never in a keg.

Are there benefits to using more than one clarifying agent when you brew and move on to kegging or bottling?
I am in the process of fermenting a lager and have have great success with clear beers in the past. 

I used whirl flock for this recipe and have never used two agents in a beer before, should I? Or is it unnecessary?
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: klickitat jim on January 18, 2018, 01:27:55 AM
I use wirlfloc in every boil. I used to use gelatin at the end of primary but I made the mistake of smelling it once. I really don't see a difference with OR without. Maybe I've fixed some upstream problems along the way and no longer need it.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
OP says he's doing a lager, which has me wondering: I use (exclusively) Weihenstephan 34/70.  The strain is extremely powdery --  one of its virtues -- but -- it doesn't clear even with up to 4 weeks lagering, so I remove it with filtration.  I wouldn't mind avoiding that.  Would gelatin in  lagering effectively do that?  I want crystal clear!
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: klickitat jim on January 18, 2018, 01:49:30 AM
In my experience, gelatined pale lager beer is clear a little faster than non gelatined, but after a month or so of cold storage they are the same.

I use 2206 for lagers these days
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 02:04:35 AM
Right now drinking a Kellerbier, 24 days at 29°-30°F an unfiltered.  Don't know how well You can see it.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V7Jn4RbIjbtpGR0X7wZ8zEI7h8wJeaeX/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: James K on January 18, 2018, 02:20:28 AM
OP says he's doing a lager, which has me wondering: I use (exclusively) Weihenstephan 34/70.  The strain is extremely powdery --  one of its virtues -- but -- it doesn't clear even with up to 4 weeks lagering, so I remove it with filtration.  I wouldn't mind avoiding that.  Would gelatin in  lagering effectively do that?  I want crystal clear!

This is the strain I am using. Right now it’s at 50* fermenting low. I’ll crash it and throw it in secondary in a few weeks. 

I could gelatin in secondary? I suppose I’ll see how clear it gets in secondary and then decide.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: James K on January 18, 2018, 02:21:52 AM
I use wirlfloc in every boil. I used to use gelatin at the end of primary but I made the mistake of smelling it once. I really don't see a difference with OR without. Maybe I've fixed some upstream problems along the way and no longer need it.

Some beers I don’t use any fining agents, like neipa. I do like clarity though.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 02:25:33 AM
I use wirlfloc in every boil. I used to use gelatin at the end of primary but I made the mistake of smelling it once. I really don't see a difference with OR without. Maybe I've fixed some upstream problems along the way and no longer need it.

Some beers I don’t use any fining agents, like neipa. I do like clarity though.
Yeah, the Kellerbier was kind of a one-off, my Pils, Helles etc need crystal clarity.   Lagering easily removes chill haze, but 34/70 not.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: James K on January 18, 2018, 02:27:49 AM
I use wirlfloc in every boil. I used to use gelatin at the end of primary but I made the mistake of smelling it once. I really don't see a difference with OR without. Maybe I've fixed some upstream problems along the way and no longer need it.

Some beers I don’t use any fining agents, like neipa. I do like clarity though.
Yeah, the Kellerbier was kind of a one-off, my Pils, Helles etc need crystal clarity.   Lagering easily removes chill haze, but 34/70 not.

Is Time the only thing that will remove chill haze besides filtration? I don’t have a filter. Ha.
I mad going to see what happens, but after secondary I am thinking about gelatin in a keg, never done it, wanna try.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 02:39:04 AM
With good malt, good mash/sparge/boil and Irish moss (I use the regular kind not whirlfloc*) you might pretty well eliminate chill haze, but cold time will settle any that's left  out.  Filtering just separates what lies above from what settled out. Racking might do the same, but yeast remains the problem for me.  I used to use gelatin AND filter, but realized this was just an extra load on the filter.  Never just gelatin.  So I'm wondering. (I remember the method, but don't even remember the dosage for gelatin. )

*Reason is that Irish moss is not very selective, it removes foam active proteins as well as haze active, so you want to use the minimum effective dose and no more.  It's easy to weigh out Irish moss flakes and properly hydrate them, while Whirlfloc tablets are a massive overdose unless you grind them up and weigh it out. PITA.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 18, 2018, 02:45:01 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: klickitat jim on January 18, 2018, 02:46:51 AM
I cut them in half with a pill cutter.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 02:53:02 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 18, 2018, 02:55:30 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

I decide to make a NEIPA clear. It took a couple of extra days but worked like a charm.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 03:01:02 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: JT on January 18, 2018, 03:26:46 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
The trick with gelatin is to get your beer COLD first.  I added the still hot mixture straight to a carboy or keg.  Clear in 48 hours.  Brilliant unless than a week.  I'm moving away from it though in my quest to eliminate cold side o2 pick up.  I'm not lodo brewing, but cold side elimination just seems like good practice.  Thinking about trying out the Clear Beer draught system.
That said, if you need clear in a hurry, gelatin is your weapon. 
I placed BOS in competition with a very fresh Kölsch that was gelatin fined in the carboy before racking to a purged keg. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 03:37:53 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
The trick with gelatin is to get your beer COLD first.  I added the still hot mixture straight to a carboy or keg.  Clear in 48 hours.  Brilliant unless than a week.  I'm moving away from it though in my quest to eliminate cold side o2 pick up.  I'm not lodo brewing, but cold side elimination just seems like good practice.  Thinking about trying out the Clear Beer draught system.
That said, if you need clear in a hurry, gelatin is your weapon. 
I placed BOS in competition with a very fresh Kölsch that was gelatin fined in the carboy before racking to a purged keg. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

JT,  here was my thought on how to minimize 02: Purge keg with sanitizer.  Leaving ~1psi on the gas in, remove liquid dip tube, introduce gelatin (having boiled water for blooming) with one of those big syringes you find in the paint department at the big box, and replace with my trimmed dip tube.  Proceed with closed transfer from fermentor to keg.  (Beer will indeed be cold.) Wait 3 weeks and jump to serving keg and carbonate.  BTW this will be the 2nd Pils with the simplified mash --  maybe I can really simplify and improve! (The total O2 pickup should be less than filtering.  I'm not on the LODO bus either, but why add it gratuitously!)

Still looking for g/gallon.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: JT on January 18, 2018, 03:49:35 AM
I use whirlfloc and gelatin after cold crashing for a couple of days. Never had an issue getting 34/70 very clear very quickly.

I have switched to S189 which gives me a little more problems...

I'll be transferring a Pils to lagering next week. Used Irish moss as usual in the kettle. Maybe I'll give gelatin a try in cold storage, then jump kegs and carbonate.  What's the dosage?

I use 1 tsp in 1/2 cup of water. I let it “bloom” at room temp for about 15 minutes before heating it to 150-160F in the microwave. I think I might use more than most but it works for me.

That sounds simple. I used to boil water, then bring it down to 160 and add pre-bloomed gel.  Guess it might reduce 02 that way.  Anybody have a dose in g/gallon?  And is there any difference between racking beer onto gelatin and adding gelatin to racked beer?
The trick with gelatin is to get your beer COLD first.  I added the still hot mixture straight to a carboy or keg.  Clear in 48 hours.  Brilliant unless than a week.  I'm moving away from it though in my quest to eliminate cold side o2 pick up.  I'm not lodo brewing, but cold side elimination just seems like good practice.  Thinking about trying out the Clear Beer draught system.
That said, if you need clear in a hurry, gelatin is your weapon. 
I placed BOS in competition with a very fresh Kölsch that was gelatin fined in the carboy before racking to a purged keg. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

JT,  here was my thought on how to minimize 02: Purge keg with sanitizer.  Leaving ~1psi on the gas in, remove liquid dip tube, introduce gelatin (having boiled water for blooming) with one of those big syringes you find in the paint department at the big box, and replace with my trimmed dip tube.  Proceed with closed transfer from fermentor to keg.  (Beer will indeed be cold.) Wait 3 weeks and jump to serving keg and carbonate.  BTW this will be the 2nd Pils with the simplified mash --  maybe I can really simplify and improve! (The total O2 pickup should be less than filtering.  I'm not on the LODO bus either, but why add it gratuitously!)

Still looking for g/gallon.
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/06/how-to-clear-your-beer-with-gelatin.html
This was pretty much my process except I preboiled the water (again, to try to remove o2).  I believe Jon used to use a large syringe through the PRV. 
I preferred the results of adding gelatin to the fermenter, but then wouldn't reuse the yeast.  Adding to the keg works just fine too, but there is quite a bit of sludge on the bottom. 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 03:56:44 AM
^^^^
JT, yeah, can't add to fermentor because repitching is central to my system (generation 11 in fermentor now, hope it's still early days on this culture. ) I know gelatin leaves a fluffy sediment,  hoping 1" trim on dip tube will have me covered.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 18, 2018, 03:01:41 PM
Polyclar will remove chill haze.

Lagering at 30F will drop out 34/70, in my experience.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 03:04:05 PM
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 18, 2018, 03:06:23 PM
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Some say that about gelatin. I really haven’t noticed a problem, but didn’t do an A/B brew and triangle test.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 18, 2018, 03:28:57 PM
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Some say that about gelatin. I really haven’t noticed a problem, but didn’t do an A/B brew and triangle test.
No formal comparisons either, but I did notice the difference when I stopped using Polyclar.   And the sediment with Polyclar smells VERY hoppy, so it makes sense that some hop products (and their  contribution to foam) would no longer be in the beer.  I'd not be surprised if this were true also of gelatin, no clarifying agent can be perfectly selective.  Coarse filtration seems least detrimental to beer character, to me at least. It will MOSTLY  just remove what cold storage has precipitated. If you can get away with just cold storage and decanting, lucky you!
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: James K on January 18, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
Polyclar will remove chill haze.
But be warned that (IME) Polyclar also reduces hop character and foam potential.  You can account for this in recipe formulation.
Some say that about gelatin. I really haven’t noticed a problem, but didn’t do an A/B brew and triangle test.

I never heard of polycar before but I wouldn’t risk it if it removed hop char. Not a lot of hops to begin with, only like 16ibu from 3oz. 3aa saaz and 2 2aa tettenang. I have only used gelatin once and the hop char came through quite well on that beer. Flavor and aroma.

This beer looks mighty clear in the carboy, but that doesn’t mean their isn’t haze.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: zwiller on January 18, 2018, 10:10:52 PM
While I agree polyclar does strip some hop character, it removes some of the negative attributes of the hops/astringency and not the good stuff.  I find it makes the flavor much more polished or professional.  IBU wise, I doubt it's even 10% or so.  People are surprised but I use it at 10m to KO with WF (brewbrite).  Insane clarity but still struggle a bit with 3470.  Otherwise with typical yeast you would think the beer is filtered.  PVPP is about as close to "perfectly selective" as you can get. 
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Ellismr on January 19, 2018, 07:04:54 PM
I just made a German Pils with WLP 830.  I used Whirfloc in the kettle and racked onto liquid isinglass.  then I lagered for 4 weeks.  It smelld and tasted great it was mostly clear but it you put it next to a commercial Warstiener German Pils doesn't come close.  Don;t get me wrong I can still see my fingers through the glass but I think the extrara filtering or centrifuge activity helps these guys.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 19, 2018, 08:07:27 PM
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: denny on January 19, 2018, 08:35:08 PM
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 19, 2018, 08:37:29 PM
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 19, 2018, 08:46:10 PM
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.

+1. I am hearing for the first time that 34/70 is impossible to get clear. Do that many people really have this issue with it? I never have. Maybe my beers that look crystal clear to me are not "lab certified" crystal clear?

I have heard a lot of reports from people that don't like 34/70 but not that it is impossible to clear.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 19, 2018, 08:59:00 PM
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.

+1. I am hearing for the first time that 34/70 is impossible to get clear. Do that many people really have this issue with it? I never have. Maybe my beers that look crystal clear to me are not "lab certified" crystal clear?

I have heard a lot of reports from people that don't like 34/70 but not that it is impossible to clear.
If you have heard of people who don't like 34/70 I wonder if they mean the dry "alleged" 34/70.  It is quite different from the "real thing" (WLP 830, WY 2124, Imperial Global, etc etc) in many people's opinion (mine included.)
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on January 19, 2018, 09:14:26 PM
I think it is pretty universally recognized that without filtration or centrifugation it is impossible to clear 34/70.  But powderiness is part and parcel of what makes it such a good yeast, a quick, consistent, thorough fermenter that really cleans up after itself.  I will stick with the yeast and continue to use coarse (6-7 micron) pad filtration.  Not just for perfect clarity, I dont like the slight yeast flavor that remains if any is still in suspension. I've been filtering so long it's something I could do in my sleep, and I've evolved my process to practically eliminate O2 pickup (unless you ask BR and Big Monk.)

Obviously not universally, because I disagree.

+1. I am hearing for the first time that 34/70 is impossible to get clear. Do that many people really have this issue with it? I never have. Maybe my beers that look crystal clear to me are not "lab certified" crystal clear?

I have heard a lot of reports from people that don't like 34/70 but not that it is impossible to clear.
If you have heard of people who don't like 34/70 I wonder if they mean the dry "alleged" 34/70.  It is quite different from the "real thing" (WLP 830, WY 2124, Imperial Global, etc etc) in many people's opinion (mine included.)

My bad. I assumed this was regarding Fermentis' particular dry strain which clears very well for me. It worked well for me in the past but prefer S-189 over it now. Carry on...
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: denny on January 19, 2018, 09:21:02 PM
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?

Cold crash and time
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 19, 2018, 09:22:33 PM
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?

Cold crash and time
The colder the better, up to a point. 30F works for me.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 19, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
I stand corrected, you are kinda universal yourself! So, how do you find it possible to clear 34/70?

Cold crash and time
I crash and lager at 29°-30°F. Guess I haven't found enough time (for me at least, a month ain't it!)
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: skyler on January 19, 2018, 10:30:57 PM
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 20, 2018, 01:43:58 AM
Remembered something else.  LHBS sells sachets of what claims to be prepared liquid isinglass.  Always thought the stuff was hard to prepare and very sensitive to storage conditions.  Can this stuff possibly be legit?
https://www.grapeandgranary.com/homebrewing/additives/fining-agents/isinglass-45ml-package.html
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 20, 2018, 03:21:09 AM
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Biofine is made from swim bladders. Williams sells Biofine-clear, which is a SiO2 product, not derived from animal products, and is vegan friendly. So your good!

I wanted to make the difference clear (no pun intended) for people that want vegetarian/vegan solutions.

I might have to get some from Williams. I did buy Brewtan-B from them recently.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 20, 2018, 03:27:58 AM
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Biofine is made from swim bladders. Williams sells Biofine-clear, which is a SiO2 product, not derived from animal products, and is vegan friendly. So your good!

I wanted to make the difference clear (no pun intended) for people that want vegetarian/vegan solutions.

I might have to get some from Williams. I did buy Brewtan-B from them recently.
Williams posts a warning (see their site) that Biofine is ruined by freezing temperatures and should not be ordered in winter by those who experience cold.  We in OH and MI had better wait before ordering, Jeff.  Maybe the ice age will end. Maybe.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 20, 2018, 04:01:08 AM
I like my "clear beer" process. I hate the taste of suspended yeast in a pale lager or Kölsch, and suspended yeast gives me gas.

1. I use whirlfloc in the kettle, which helps.
2. Then I cold crash for at least 48 hours before I keg, which helps.
3. Then I add 2tsp biofine (William's sells it) or 1 tsp gelatin (bloomed 15 mins in 12 oz room temp pre-boiled water, then heated to "hot beverage" temperature in the microwave) to the freshly-filled keg. Gelatin works better, but biofine is vegetarian (so is my wife). AFAIK, 2 tsp of biofine is less likely to add cold-side O2 than 12 oz of gelatin water.
4. Then I carbonate my keg and let it rest in the keg.
5. 48 hours, I tap the beer and dump the first pint.

Clear beer.

Another option, which I have used for lagers and Kölsch in the past, is to give it 8 weeks at 30F and rack into the keg very carefully. It still takes 24 hours in the keg to get "crystal" clear, IME.

Biofine is made from swim bladders. Williams sells Biofine-clear, which is a SiO2 product, not derived from animal products, and is vegan friendly. So your good!

I wanted to make the difference clear (no pun intended) for people that want vegetarian/vegan solutions.

I might have to get some from Williams. I did buy Brewtan-B from them recently.
Williams posts a warning (see their site) that Biofine is ruined by freezing temperatures and should not be ordered in winter by those who experience cold.  We in OH and MI had better wait before ordering, Jeff.  Maybe the ice age will end. Maybe.

I did look it up to see that it was Biofine-clear. I need to read the fine print now.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: JT on January 20, 2018, 01:46:06 PM

JT,  here was my thought on how to minimize 02: Purge keg with sanitizer.  Leaving ~1psi on the gas in, remove liquid dip tube, introduce gelatin (having boiled water for blooming) with one of those big syringes you find in the paint department at the big box, and replace with my trimmed dip tube.  Proceed with closed transfer from fermentor to keg.  (Beer will indeed be cold.) Wait 3 weeks and jump to serving keg and carbonate.  BTW this will be the 2nd Pils with the simplified mash --  maybe I can really simplify and improve! (The total O2 pickup should be less than filtering.  I'm not on the LODO bus either, but why add it gratuitously!)

Still looking for g/gallon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MtzVAKiXJ4
check this link out from Bryan's youtube channel. Similar to what you described Robert.
 @The Beerery - do you use biofine?  benefits over gelatin?
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: JT on January 20, 2018, 01:52:09 PM
^^^^
JT, yeah, can't add to fermentor because repitching is central to my system (generation 11 in fermentor now, hope it's still early days on this culture. ) I know gelatin leaves a fluffy sediment,  hoping 1" trim on dip tube will have me covered.  Thoughts?
I think a Clear Beer system might be worth a try to avoid keg jumping after fining.  It draws from the top.  Trimming the diptube would work as well, if you trim enough.  I've fined right in the keg and was able to pour crystal beer from it, but you sure do get some initial slurry bombs first. I've not trimmed the diptubes.   
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: Robert on January 20, 2018, 04:34:08 PM
Thanks, JT.   Upon further review, I've decided...to change nothing.   Everything I might change bumps up against some other element of my process, which really has been evolved as an organic whole.  So FOR ME, coarse pad filtration is the way to go.  Isn't it great how many options there are in brewing, and how there's never just one right answer?  I hope all of the ideas in this thread have helped the OP! (What exactly was he asking anyway...? ;))
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: sladek on January 23, 2018, 11:11:52 PM
I am wondering the difference between some clarifying agents. I typically use whirl flock at 10 minutes or so and have also used gelatin in secondary instead of whirlflock. Never in a keg.

Are there benefits to using more than one clarifying agent when you brew and move on to kegging or bottling?
I am in the process of fermenting a lager and have have great success with clear beers in the past. 

I used whirl flock for this recipe and have never used two agents in a beer before, should I? Or is it unnecessary?

I don't use anything...clarity is overrated.
Title: Re: Clarifying agents
Post by: JT on January 25, 2018, 06:21:40 AM


I hope all of the ideas in this thread have helped the OP! (What exactly was he asking anyway...? ;))

Good point, I had to scroll back up.  Finings I use:
Irish moss in the boil.  Almost always. 
Gelatin cold side (when using a cold side fining). 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."