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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Aksarben on February 05, 2018, 03:18:08 AM

Title: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Aksarben on February 05, 2018, 03:18:08 AM
We have local malster that sells his own version of Munich Malt.  So, just curious, what makes the Munich malt a little different?  I have been using the Munich Dark Malt for my Dunkels, and is rich in malty flavor.  I also add in a small bit of Melanoidin malt to enhance the malt overtones. 
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 05, 2018, 03:43:11 AM
Munich malt differs in the kilning, not the germination stages of malting. Pale/Pils malts are dried to just a few percent moisture at around 120°F before being raised to around 180°F for a light toasting.   Munich has somewhat more moisture when the temperature is raised, and it is raised to around 220°F.  This means a small amount of "mashing" can happen, a little sugar is produced in the grain and then caramelized a bit in the kiln (other color and aroma substances besides caramel are made as well.)  Variations of these procedures make other malts.  Even more moisture and high temps (allowing complete conversion to sugar inside the husk) make caramel or crystal malts, moisture same as for pale malt but with the higher temperatures give Vienna and biscuit type malts. Melanoidin is made by a process where ventilation is shut off toward the end of germination,  so that temperature and enzyme activity increase before any drying, so even more of the substances that characterize Munich malt are produced. (That's the short version, some expert will say I oversimplify!) I think of it this way, Munich>Melanoidin>Crystal lie on one continuum (involving higher moisture at the start of kilning), on another (low moisture) lie Pils/pale>Vienna>biscuit/Amber. Hope this is helpful.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Aksarben on February 05, 2018, 07:17:57 PM
Rob that was VERY helpful and I thank you!!  You mentioned Melanoidin malt... well here is what I just brewed and pretty much my standard Dunkel recipe.  You should taste it!!  https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/603499/
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 05, 2018, 11:51:50 PM
Rob that was VERY helpful and I thank you!!  You mentioned Melanoidin malt... well here is what I just brewed and pretty much my standard Dunkel recipe.  You should taste it!!  https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/603499/
That does look delicious!  You will see some homebrew recipes using a portion of Pils malt in Dunkels, because homebrewers were once told this was either necessary or true to German practice, while neither is true.  Around the forum consensus favors recipes like yours: it's best to use a mix of different dark type malts for rich, complex malt flavor and some dehusked roast type for color adjustment. 
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 06, 2018, 12:47:41 AM
Rob that was VERY helpful and I thank you!!  You mentioned Melanoidin malt... well here is what I just brewed and pretty much my standard Dunkel recipe.  You should taste it!!  https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/603499/
That does look delicious!  You will see some homebrew recipes using a portion of Pils malt in Dunkels, because homebrewers were once told this was either necessary or true to German practice, while neither is true.  Around the forum consensus favors recipes like yours: it's best to use a mix of different dark type malts for rich, complex malt flavor and some dehusked roast type for color adjustment.

I talked with a German brewer that makes some good Dunkel. Asked him to look over my recipe, he recommended up to 20% pils for the enzymes. There are some other references out there that have some lighter colored malts. Also remember that not all breweries in Germany use Weyermann, so the Munich malt they use might need a little help. Some still Decoct which helps a 99% 40 EBC Munich convert.

Just saying that here isn’t one ingredient list or process to make a really good Dunkel.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Richard on February 06, 2018, 02:46:05 AM
Yeah, I love the taste of Munich but it only has a diastatic power of 40-50 Lintner depending on which kind you get. Adding a bit of highly modified malt will help your conversion a lot.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Aksarben on February 06, 2018, 02:58:37 AM
I usually add a 1/2 tsp of amylase enzyme to the mash.  That might help a bit.  It says "Increases Fermentability".
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 06, 2018, 02:59:24 AM
Yeah, I love the taste of Munich but it only has a diastatic power of 40-50 Lintner depending on which kind you get. Adding a bit of highly modified malt will help your conversion a lot.
40-50 linter is about what British pale ale malt has, 35 is plenty to convert a mash. Moreover, it has been 50+ years since you could find a Munich with  questionable enzymes (note conversion times on spec sheets are in line with other base malts), just like Pils that needs a protein rest; these are myths perpetuated in the homebrew community. Decoction is almost a unicorn even with Dunkels, but would be the only place Pils would be appropriate; not for the enzyme package with available malts, but to LIGHTEN the color and flavor.  So for homebrewers, the takeaway is, go Munich and color and have no fear!

EDIT  Jeff, I wonder if the brewer you talked to was also influenced by tradition more than the current state of materials?
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 06, 2018, 03:11:05 AM
I usually add a 1/2 tsp of amylase enzyme to the mash.  That might help a bit.  It says "Increases Fermentability".
One danger of the amylase you buy in the brew shop is that it doesn't know when to quit.  You may reduce all carbohydrates to the point where attenuation is high, but other qualities are lacking.  I know that Briess recommends using Bonlander only to 50% because they regard it as more specialty malt than base, and expect it will be used to add flavor to their 2 row.  If this is where you have a concern about my enzymes, consider finding a European malt for your lighter Munich, they are all true base malt.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 06, 2018, 02:36:03 PM
Yeah, I love the taste of Munich but it only has a diastatic power of 40-50 Lintner depending on which kind you get. Adding a bit of highly modified malt will help your conversion a lot.
40-50 linter is about what British pale ale malt has, 35 is plenty to convert a mash. Moreover, it has been 50+ years since you could find a Munich with  questionable enzymes (note conversion times on spec sheets are in line with other base malts), just like Pils that needs a protein rest; these are myths perpetuated in the homebrew community. Decoction is almost a unicorn even with Dunkels, but would be the only place Pils would be appropriate; not for the enzyme package with available malts, but to LIGHTEN the color and flavor.  So for homebrewers, the takeaway is, go Munich and color and have no fear!

EDIT  Jeff, I wonder if the brewer you talked to was also influenced by tradition more than the current state of materials?

He is a degreed brewer. His brewery is known for a Dunkel. I have been under the impression that traditional Dunkels were all dark Munich and decocted, if you go back far enough, before Pils malt.

There is a 19th century Dunkel recipe in the Jan-Feb 2018 New Brewer that uses:

45.5 % Munich
35% Vienna
10% CaraMunich I
8% Weyermann Special W
1.5% Carafa Special I

Traditional or modern? The article as authored by Horst Dornbusch and Thomas Kraus-Weyermann. That last guy might be the authority. I still need to look up Special W.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: The Beerery on February 06, 2018, 02:51:05 PM
Modern Day Dunkel will usually have some pils malt, not necessarily for the enzymes (as modern munich malt is just as modified as pils), but for the hint of lingering fresh malt.


The big German brewery's (W, Ayinger, Paulaner, etc) grain bills are usually something like:

80% dark Munich (or blend, or a custom Munich somewhere in between)
12-14% pils
1% ( or none, and use sinamar, its WAY more prevalent than you think)
Caramunich variant, usually around II for the rest.


Something like Ayinger is going to be
80/11/8/1/make up the rest with sinamar

FYI about sinamar, it is considered a malt to them called "Roasted Malt Beer" (Hence Ayingers 5 malt dunkel)




Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 06, 2018, 02:51:36 PM
Yeah, I love the taste of Munich but it only has a diastatic power of 40-50 Lintner depending on which kind you get. Adding a bit of highly modified malt will help your conversion a lot.
40-50 linter is about what British pale ale malt has, 35 is plenty to convert a mash. Moreover, it has been 50+ years since you could find a Munich with  questionable enzymes (note conversion times on spec sheets are in line with other base malts), just like Pils that needs a protein rest; these are myths perpetuated in the homebrew community. Decoction is almost a unicorn even with Dunkels, but would be the only place Pils would be appropriate; not for the enzyme package with available malts, but to LIGHTEN the color and flavor.  So for homebrewers, the takeaway is, go Munich and color and have no fear!

EDIT  Jeff, I wonder if the brewer you talked to was also influenced by tradition more than the current state of materials?

He is a degreed brewer. His brewery is known for a Dunkel. I have been under the impression that traditional Dunkels were all dark Munich and decocted, if you go back far enough, before Pils malt.

There is a 19th century Dunkel recipe in the Jan-Feb 2018 New Brewer that uses:

45.5 % Munich
35% Vienna
10% CaraMunich I
8% Weyermann Special W
1.5% Carafa Special I

Traditional or modern? The article as authored by Horst Dornbusch and Thomas Kraus-Weyermann. That last guy might be the authority. I still need to look up Special W.

Thanks Jeff, interesting.  Th. K-W is surely an expert on malt as we know it!  But this leads me to another question: What was Vienna malt at the time?  Thausing (he should speak with authority) states that a Vienna beer as we think of it, intermediate between Munich and Pilsner in color and hop rate, was only produced at Vienna for a brief period in the 1850s, rapidly replaced by a beer increasingly indistinguishable from Pilsner. 

My understanding too that original regional beers were single malt. We need the color malt if not decocting a Dunkel,  but Munich provides the flavor. Many formulations are indeed possible.  Czech darks of course are today mostly Pils and color malts!

But commercial recipes are a digression.  My point, to the OP and other homebrewers, is that our available methods and materials support a worry-free all-dark-plus-color approach as giving the best result.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 06, 2018, 03:18:58 PM
Modern Day Dunkel will usually have some pils malt, not necessarily for the enzymes (as modern munich malt is just as modified as pils), but for the hint of lingering fresh malt.


The big German brewery's (W, Ayinger, Paulaner, etc) grain bills are usually something like:

80% dark Munich (or blend, or a custom Munich somewhere in between)
12-14% pils
1% ( or none, and use sinamar, its WAY more prevalent than you think)
Caramunich variant, usually around II for the rest.


Something like Ayinger is going to be
80/11/8/1/make up the rest with sinamar

FYI about sinamar, it is considered a malt to them called "Roasted Malt Beer" (Hence Ayingers 5 malt dunkel)
Got it.

What do you consider modern vs traditional?
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: The Beerery on February 06, 2018, 03:51:35 PM
Modern Day Dunkel will usually have some pils malt, not necessarily for the enzymes (as modern munich malt is just as modified as pils), but for the hint of lingering fresh malt.


The big German brewery's (W, Ayinger, Paulaner, etc) grain bills are usually something like:

80% dark Munich (or blend, or a custom Munich somewhere in between)
12-14% pils
1% ( or none, and use sinamar, its WAY more prevalent than you think)
Caramunich variant, usually around II for the rest.


Something like Ayinger is going to be
80/11/8/1/make up the rest with sinamar

FYI about sinamar, it is considered a malt to them called "Roasted Malt Beer" (Hence Ayingers 5 malt dunkel)
Got it.

What do you consider modern vs traditional?

Umm, modern to me is what the German Macro's are putting out now.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 06, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
One of my first guides on this subject, and still useful, was an article, "Special Malts for Greater Beer Type Variety" by Prof. Narziss, in the Winter 1993 _Zymurgy_, reprinted from _Brauwelt International_, IV/1991 pp. 284-92.  It offers a primer on the modern manufacture and specs of malts including Munich and Melanoidin types among others, sample grain bills, lab analyses of beers, and more in a short, accessible form. (It's the only _Z_ from back in the day I've kept!)

EDIT  In the article, Narziss complains that modern Dunkels often have far too strong a roast malt flavor!
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: The Beerery on February 06, 2018, 04:10:40 PM

EDIT  In the article, Narziss complains that modern Dunkels often have far too strong a roast malt flavor!

I agree, Schwarz should have roast, dunkel should not IMO. My personal Dunkel does not contain roast. Sinamar only, which with a soft boil, lends the perfect amount of roast flavor..
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Robert on February 06, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

EDIT  In the article, Narziss complains that modern Dunkels often have far too strong a roast malt flavor!

I agree, Schwarz should have roast, dunkel should not IMO. My personal Dunkel does not contain roast. Sinamar only, which with a soft boil, lends the perfect amount of roast flavor..

A nice demonstration of excessive vs. Less jarring levels of roast character in Dunkels, available at your megamart, is Warsteiner vs. Hofbräu.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 08, 2018, 03:02:54 AM
Yeah, I love the taste of Munich but it only has a diastatic power of 40-50 Lintner depending on which kind you get. Adding a bit of highly modified malt will help your conversion a lot.
40-50 linter is about what British pale ale malt has, 35 is plenty to convert a mash. Moreover, it has been 50+ years since you could find a Munich with  questionable enzymes (note conversion times on spec sheets are in line with other base malts), just like Pils that needs a protein rest; these are myths perpetuated in the homebrew community. Decoction is almost a unicorn even with Dunkels, but would be the only place Pils would be appropriate; not for the enzyme package with available malts, but to LIGHTEN the color and flavor.  So for homebrewers, the takeaway is, go Munich and color and have no fear!

EDIT  Jeff, I wonder if the brewer you talked to was also influenced by tradition more than the current state of materials?

He is a degreed brewer. His brewery is known for a Dunkel. I have been under the impression that traditional Dunkels were all dark Munich and decocted, if you go back far enough, before Pils malt.

There is a 19th century Dunkel recipe in the Jan-Feb 2018 New Brewer that uses:

45.5 % Munich
35% Vienna
10% CaraMunich I
8% Weyermann Special W
1.5% Carafa Special I

Traditional or modern? The article as authored by Horst Dornbusch and Thomas Kraus-Weyermann. That last guy might be the authority. I still need to look up Special W.
Special W is something like Special B. One is Weyernmann and the other is Castle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 08, 2018, 03:04:22 AM

EDIT  In the article, Narziss complains that modern Dunkels often have far too strong a roast malt flavor!

I agree, Schwarz should have roast, dunkel should not IMO. My personal Dunkel does not contain roast. Sinamar only, which with a soft boil, lends the perfect amount of roast flavor..
Careful with Sinamar. If you use too much, it will taste like ash tray.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 08, 2018, 03:23:03 AM
Yeah, I love the taste of Munich but it only has a diastatic power of 40-50 Lintner depending on which kind you get. Adding a bit of highly modified malt will help your conversion a lot.
40-50 linter is about what British pale ale malt has, 35 is plenty to convert a mash. Moreover, it has been 50+ years since you could find a Munich with  questionable enzymes (note conversion times on spec sheets are in line with other base malts), just like Pils that needs a protein rest; these are myths perpetuated in the homebrew community. Decoction is almost a unicorn even with Dunkels, but would be the only place Pils would be appropriate; not for the enzyme package with available malts, but to LIGHTEN the color and flavor.  So for homebrewers, the takeaway is, go Munich and color and have no fear!

EDIT  Jeff, I wonder if the brewer you talked to was also influenced by tradition more than the current state of materials?

He is a degreed brewer. His brewery is known for a Dunkel. I have been under the impression that traditional Dunkels were all dark Munich and decocted, if you go back far enough, before Pils malt.

There is a 19th century Dunkel recipe in the Jan-Feb 2018 New Brewer that uses:

45.5 % Munich
35% Vienna
10% CaraMunich I
8% Weyermann Special W
1.5% Carafa Special I

Traditional or modern? The article as authored by Horst Dornbusch and Thomas Kraus-Weyermann. That last guy might be the authority. I still need to look up Special W.
Special W is something like Special B. One is Weyernmann and the other is Castle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks, Leos.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: mabrungard on February 08, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
I agree, Schwarz should have roast, dunkel should not IMO. My personal Dunkel does not contain roast.

Schwarzbier has similar requirements to Dunkel in that NEITHER are supposed to have any burnt flavor or character. Both styles make mention of low or minor 'chocolate' notes in the flavor, but they shouldn't be burnt or harsh....or prominent. They should exist as nuances in my opinion.

I recently finished off a Dunkel that employed a couple of ounces of Weyermann Chocolate Wheat and the result was quite good. Just a hint of chocolate in the finish...especially when the beer warmed.

By the way, going from 2 oz to 3 oz in a 5 gal batch of Dunkel definitely crosses the line in my experience...nuance to overt.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Aksarben on February 15, 2018, 05:01:55 AM
I'm getting an RO unit installed in our house as our water is crap (iron and sulfur , along with high calcium hardness - SW Michigan, so in  using Munich malt to make my Munich Dunkel, and making a recent Dry Irish Stout, I bought some RO water locally and added about 3g of Calcium chloride and about 2 g of gypsum to the total batch of 4 gallons mash of a Dry Irish Stout I have in the fermenter.  Using this idea for both Stout and Dunkel a good idea?  Would it be beneficial to have water tested after the RO install to see the actual number, or are most RO waters, pretty much the same?
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: mabrungard on February 15, 2018, 01:18:54 PM
Using RO for Dunkel and Dry Stout is OK. In the case of Dunkel, the roast addition is so small that it doesn't drive pH down excessively. In the case of Dry Stout, the pH depression is desirable, but you don't want the mashing pH to be low for most of the mashing duration. That will cause excessive proteolysis and that can destroy head and body. Adding the roast at the end of the mash is a good technique for keeping the mash pH at normal level for most of the duration and then crashing it at the end.
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: Aksarben on February 15, 2018, 05:43:58 PM
Using RO for Dunkel and Dry Stout is OK. In the case of Dunkel, the roast addition is so small that it doesn't drive pH down excessively. In the case of Dry Stout, the pH depression is desirable, but you don't want the mashing pH to be low for most of the mashing duration. That will cause excessive proteolysis and that can destroy head and body. Adding the roast at the end of the mash is a good technique for keeping the mash pH at normal level for most of the duration and then crashing it at the end.

Thanks Martin!  That's about what I did with my Dry Irish Stout. Even though I used Munich malt, Melanoidin malt, and about 4 % acidulated malt, I separated out the Roasted Barely and steeped it in a nylon bag on the stove with near boiling hot water, squeezed it out, and added it at the end of the mashing period (broth) to the main mash.  I figured that the very dark roast barley of that much would drive the pH down too low, so added the dark "tea" at the very end of the mash period.  Lautered very nice considering I had added 1/4 cup of Chocolate Flavor Malt-O-Meal and some Cheerios (but added in a good amount of rice hulls).
Title: Re: How is Munich malt made?
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 15, 2018, 06:59:29 PM
The late roast add is advicated by many knowledgable brewers, including  Gordon Strong.  Your twist with Maltomeal and cheerios is novel!  I know a highly medaled homebrewer who makes oatmeal for his stout and adds it to the mash after the mash is nearing full conversion.  His statement was why not add the exact flavor you want to achieve?  Makes sense to me.