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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 07:16:30 PM

Title: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 07:16:30 PM
I'm flirting with trying closed transfer. I use Speidel 30Ls. I stumbled onto these ball lock in caps with 5psi adjustable PRVs.

How are you guys cleaning and sanitizing your spigot after fermentation for transfer? I don't like the idea of running 5 gallons through a wild inoculation

How do you know when you have the keg properly filled? I'm looking at some color change tape for the side of the keg, but don't know if it changes between room temp  (keg) and 32-35° (incoming beer)

Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: roger on February 06, 2018, 07:32:29 PM
Could you measure the weight of the keg as you fill it? 5 gallons of water weighs about 42 pounds. 1.050 wort adds about 5 %. Doesn't need to be super accurate, maybe a bathroom scale?

Edit: you're not measuring wort, its beer. So, at a FG of 1.010, it only weighs about 1 % more than water.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: The Beerery on February 06, 2018, 07:36:01 PM
Starsan and a spray bottle. And you fill the keg until beer comes out the gas in port... Thats all the more complicated this needs to be.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 08:00:13 PM
One other thing, how do you deal with yeast? All of my beers finish with trube up to the level of the spigot

It will have to be a simple thing that doesn't add a bunch of new stuff to clean.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Big Monk on February 06, 2018, 08:01:44 PM
One other thing, how do you deal with yeast? All of my beers finish with trube up to the level of the spigot

It will have to be a simple thing that doesn't add a bunch of new stuff to clean.

What fermenters do you use Jim?
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 08:03:45 PM
One other thing, how do you deal with yeast? All of my beers finish with trube up to the level of the spigot

It will have to be a simple thing that doesn't add a bunch of new stuff to clean.

What fermenters do you use Jim?
Speidel 30L. I have the spigot but don't use them. I use a cap on the bottom port. I rack with auto siphon
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 08:06:47 PM
This is what I would use for pressure in(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/63e2316116dc7b0fb9f699bcf0bf8e3c.jpg)
Title: Closed transfer
Post by: coolman26 on February 06, 2018, 09:50:00 PM
Doesn’t he also make a dip tube fitting for the Speidel Jim?  I use 15g with the red screw top. Like a Speidel before they were around. I’m trying to figure out how to do what you are doing. That top w the dip tube would be the ticket.


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: mabrungard on February 06, 2018, 10:07:52 PM
And you fill the keg until beer comes out the gas in port...

Since my kegs have vents, I just pull the vent rings and let the beer push the gas out. Why rely on the gas in port?
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: The Beerery on February 06, 2018, 10:14:08 PM
And you fill the keg until beer comes out the gas in port...

Since my kegs have vents, I just pull the vent rings and let the beer push the gas out. Why rely on the gas in port?

Because when doing a closed transfer, you will have the gas in going back to the top of the fermenter. So when that line fills with beer, the keg is full.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 10:18:32 PM
Doesn’t he also make a dip tube fitting for the Speidel Jim?  I use 15g with the red screw top. Like a Speidel before they were around. I’m trying to figure out how to do what you are doing. That top w the dip tube would be the ticket.


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Oh I agree. That to me would be ideal. I'm not seeing it though.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 06, 2018, 10:22:00 PM
Doesn’t he also make a dip tube fitting for the Speidel Jim?  I use 15g with the red screw top. Like a Speidel before they were around. I’m trying to figure out how to do what you are doing. That top w the dip tube would be the ticket.


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Oh I agree. That to me would be ideal. I'm not seeing it though.

The only dip tubes I see are for the spigot which doesn't make sense to me. I transfer from the spigot. If I was to use one of these dip tubes, I would pick up a ton of yeast.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 10:25:47 PM
Doesn’t he also make a dip tube fitting for the Speidel Jim?  I use 15g with the red screw top. Like a Speidel before they were around. I’m trying to figure out how to do what you are doing. That top w the dip tube would be the ticket.


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Oh I agree. That to me would be ideal. I'm not seeing it though.

The only dip tubes I see are for the spigot which doesn't make sense to me. I transfer from the spigot. If I was to use one of these dip tubes, I would pick up a ton of yeast.
Unless you could rotate it up out of the yeast

Maybe place the blow off tube they sell, inside of the spigot and rotated upward? But I wonder about getting it to not leak.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 06, 2018, 10:27:58 PM
Doesn’t he also make a dip tube fitting for the Speidel Jim?  I use 15g with the red screw top. Like a Speidel before they were around. I’m trying to figure out how to do what you are doing. That top w the dip tube would be the ticket.


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Oh I agree. That to me would be ideal. I'm not seeing it though.

The only dip tubes I see are for the spigot which doesn't make sense to me. I transfer from the spigot. If I was to use one of these dip tubes, I would pick up a ton of yeast.
Unless you could rotate it up out of the yeast

Just thought of that. Usually the yeast settles right below the spigot for my 30L. I thought you guys were essentially talking about a racking cane built into the lid. Sorry to interrupt. Carry on.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 10:45:42 PM
Fyi, I called norcal. She is building me a  Speidel version of a sanke transfer! I'll share the scoop when I get it
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: lupulus on February 06, 2018, 11:03:57 PM
Here you go.
If you use the Speidel spigots use the Chrome ones not the plastic ones. If you use the norcal ones, make sure you buy the plastic cap and the silicone wrap. I bought the ball valves independently for much cheaper and added adaptors for hoses.  If you want to ferment with the spigot, just sanitize it like anything else and then cover the exit in sanitized foil.
Fill by gravity. Insert a gas quick disconnect once everything is connected and the beer going down will push the gas off the keg through the disconnect. I imagine that in addition to gravity, you will push from the top with CO2 in this case.
You can easily see the yeast/ trub level in the speidel. If it is below the level of the spigot, then transfer until you reach the level of the yeast. If it is above the level of the spigot, incline the Speidel backwards until it is below the level of the Speidel. Use something that won't slide.
I would cut the keg gas-in tube so that the beer can reach the top of the keg.
If you have more beer than the keg can take, then beer will eventually come out of the disconnect; at tha point get the disconnect out and you are done.
Keep in mind that your keg is filled to the top, so get some beer out before you connect gas or make sure gas has pressure, otherwise beer will come into the gas line.
I have done 300 beers this way, so if it can happen, I have seen it :-)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 06, 2018, 11:41:02 PM
Excellent,  thanks for the detail. I believe I'm on top of this now and sounds like I'll end up with a nice system for reasonable
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: coolman26 on February 07, 2018, 12:00:26 AM
Fyi, I called norcal. She is building me a  Speidel version of a sanke transfer! I'll share the scoop when I get it
Great, I know I saw a video of JB working on a prototype for the dip tube. Look forward to seeing it.


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 07, 2018, 01:05:49 AM
Here is my final solution. The one I'm getting, the racking cane will actually have a liquid ball lock tip though. Then a jumper from that to the liquid out post on the keg. It doesn't include the orange threaded Speidle collar but I have about 6 extras at home.

I should have it in time to keg my double mash stout, and English IPA. So from here out I'm purging by pushing out sanitizer, and closed transferring. I use Brewtan B in my light colored beers. But that's it! Don't paint me a LODO guy! Lol(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/6e7644232397ec646bb9dac15c206ce5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/25de7907d359da49e92a40a35b3e843e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/4779c4a7afca83c84f4b31f02cb31a2d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/05a9b49acd188f921d81c21a99e5f3c7.jpg)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: erockrph on February 07, 2018, 01:47:34 AM
Regarding the yeast issue, I just use pressure to blow out the first bit of gunk on the bottom of my fermenting keg through a picnic tap. Once it's mostly clear I jump it to my serving keg with a PRV/spunding valve on the gas-in. Some yeast/trub may still make it over to the serving keg, but that usually drops quick and is gone after the first pint or two.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 07, 2018, 02:03:06 AM
Regarding the yeast issue, I just use pressure to blow out the first bit of gunk on the bottom of my fermenting keg through a picnic tap. Once it's mostly clear I jump it to my serving keg with a PRV/spunding valve on the gas-in. Some yeast/trub may still make it over to the serving keg, but that usually drops quick and is gone after the first pint or two.
Right on. I'll be able to adjust my racking cane to pull clear beer.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 14, 2018, 09:21:50 PM
Got my closed transfer gear yesterday. Purged kegs by pushing co2, then transferred from my Speidels with what amounts to a sanke spear made by Nor-Cal. It went great. A little extra effort, things to clean and sanitize, but I got two kegs of Crystal clear non oxidized beer, so I think it's worth it. It was nice to not lift full Speidels out of the chest freezer too. I like it. Time will tell if the beer is better.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: The Beerery on February 14, 2018, 09:42:55 PM
but I got two kegs of Crystal clear non oxidized beer

I am not trying to start a fight, I am genuinely interested.

Is this backed up by DO/tpo measurement or hopeful/wishful thinking?
Non-oxidized compared to what?
Industry standards or?

Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 14, 2018, 09:49:03 PM
Perhaps the phrase could be more correctly "less oxidized", which is better than just as oxidized as previous methods, for sure.

 ;)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 14, 2018, 11:14:19 PM
but I got two kegs of Crystal clear non oxidized beer

I am not trying to start a fight, I am genuinely interested.

Is this backed up by DO/tpo measurement or hopeful/wishful thinking?
Non-oxidized compared to what?
Industry standards or?
Seriously?
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 14, 2018, 11:31:21 PM
I changed my signature so this won't happen again.

Disclaimer: 1. All beer is oxidized. 2. I only fight in person. 3. I don't believe in science

Title: Closed transfer
Post by: The Beerery on February 14, 2018, 11:51:34 PM
but I got two kegs of Crystal clear non oxidized beer

I am not trying to start a fight, I am genuinely interested.

Is this backed up by DO/tpo measurement or hopeful/wishful thinking?
Non-oxidized compared to what?
Industry standards or?
Seriously?


Uhhh yea.  You made the claim not me.  Just seeing if there was data to back it up. 

Is that no then? Which is fine, I was just curious if there was data. 

🤷‍♂️


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 12:11:07 AM
It wasn't a claim. Some people just like talking about beer. Not everyone is on a crusade. I started this thread because I was looking for a way to closed transfer from my Speidels. I thought maybe someone would be interested in the outcome. I sincerely apologize if I made it sound like I was claiming that I had discovered a way of producing totally oxygen free beer. I did not mean to get you all riled up. By the way, I never have any data. Data is against my religion.

Disclaimer: 1. All beer is oxidized. 2. I only fight in person. 3. I don't believe in science
.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: The Beerery on February 15, 2018, 12:24:05 AM
I am sorry you are bent out of shape over this.  I even prefaced it.. You can resort to bad mouthing and whatnot.  That’s cool, if that’s your deal. 


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 12:31:20 AM
Jim, at some point could you post pics of the transfer rig in place on the fermenter?  Someday I probably want to get away from glass carboys, and closed transfers are a must whatever I switch to.  Speidels might be an attractive option, but they're not available locally, and I'd have to really know what I'm getting into before ordering sight  unseen.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 12:39:18 AM
Look, all is well. Deep breaths.

You might try sometime to understand that prefacing "Not trying to start a fight" indicates that perhaps you realize that what you are about to say might be perceived as trying to start a fight. You are the oxygen guy. I get it. It's totally my fault for not taking the time to detail what I meant, or to use proper scientific language. By now I should know better that not everyone understands a figure of speech.

My hope is that one day you will come to realize that I am not the enemy. Just a schlep trying to find more ways to enjoy his hobby. I'm not trying to disrupt your oxygen thing.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 12:47:13 AM
Jim, at some point could you post pics of the transfer rig in place on the fermenter?  Someday I probably want to get away from glass carboys, and closed transfers are a must whatever I switch to.  Speidels might be an attractive option, but they're not available locally, and I'd have to really know what I'm getting into before ordering sight  unseen.
You'd have to talk Drew into posting more on the forum for glass transfer.

I contemplated pictures today but frankly my phone was in the house and i was in focus mode. Pressure plus unknown... But Ya! In a few weeks I'll be doing it again and is be glad to.

I've been brewing in Speidels for a while now. I have 6 of them. I use two for sours, two as extras, and the two I routinely brew on. Honestly, I think the separate sour gear is over freaking. We bring more contaminates into our regular brewery that we realize. I would be totally relaxed to clean, iodophor, and use my sour gear in my regular beers.

Bla bla bla

I'll take a pic for you next time.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 12:54:13 AM
Jim, at some point could you post pics of the transfer rig in place on the fermenter?  Someday I probably want to get away from glass carboys, and closed transfers are a must whatever I switch to.  Speidels might be an attractive option, but they're not available locally, and I'd have to really know what I'm getting into before ordering sight  unseen.
You'd have to talk Drew into posting more on the forum for glass transfer.

I contemplated pictures today but frankly my phone was in the house and i was in focus mode. Pressure plus unknown... But Ya! In a few weeks I'll be doing it again and is be glad to.

I've been brewing in Speidels for a while now. I have 6 of them. I use two for sours, two as extras, and the two I routinely brew on. Honestly, I think the separate sour gear is over freaking. We bring more contaminates into our regular brewery that we realize. I would be totally relaxed to clean, iodophor, and use my sour gear in my regular beers.

Bla bla bla

I'll take a pic for you next time.

Thanks.  The thing with glass is that I'm still lifting the carboy onto the bench to elevate it over the keg, because I'm afraid to apply more pressure than is needed to, in effect, start a siphon and replace the volume of drained beer with gas.  Doing the transfer on ground level is a really attractive idea, and the Speidel looks like a bargain.  Don't want to shell out for a bunch of stainless gear! :)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 12:59:31 AM
You and me both. For one pressurized conical I can get several 9 gallon Speidels. I keg 5 gallons, 6 gallons to the Speidel with gobs of headroom. I've never had real blow off but one time with a 7 gallon sour that I added a gallon of pomegranate concentrate.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: BrewBama on February 15, 2018, 01:33:39 AM
 Jim, you use Iodophor to sanitize?  I am considering a switch from Star San because I read it doesn’t kill everything. Your thoughts?


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 01:37:25 AM
Iodophor for kegs and kegerator. Starsan for everything else, unless it's touched sour.

I use spray bottle starsan for stuff like tinfoil. I use starsan liquid for stuff like thoroughly cleaned starter flasks, fermentor, pump, hoses etc. Stuff I think is coated in bugs gets thoroughly hot cleaned and sanitized with no rinse dilution of iiodophor.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 01:44:16 AM
I'm not Jim, but I'll chime in.  I've gone to iodophor WHEREVER POSSIBLE, because it is in fact a broad spectrum stone cold killer, and acids aren't. (Iodophor's cheaper, too, just got a gallon for ~$50.) But there are times when it's just impractical, and I still have a bucket and spray bottle of StarSan on hand always, to squirt a fitting, or dip a sample thief, etc. But more and more I'll even make up a very small amount of Iodophor for those applications.  I like the low foam/slickness too.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 02:08:59 AM
On that note, I'm not Jim either.



Or am i?
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 02:44:24 AM
On that note, I'm not Jim either.



Or am i?

Jim, are you getting enough oxygen?
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 02:50:45 AM
I have no way of knowing
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 02:52:45 AM
Ignorance is bliss.  And it's cheap.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Wilbur on February 15, 2018, 03:37:56 AM


Look, all is well. Deep breaths.

You might try sometime to understand that prefacing "Not trying to start a fight" indicates that perhaps you realize that what you are about to say might be perceived as trying to start a fight.

Like " With all due respect", or "not to be a jerk"?

Anyway, with all due respect the ss brew buckets can supposedly only take 1-2 psi, and the small fast ferments are tempting at the price. So is the Anvil mini fermenters.

I'm definitely looking at this, not just for 02 reasons. I hate lifting my fermenters and trying to figure out how long until everything settles back down. Very little patience.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 05:24:27 AM
Is there a thermowell option for the Speidels? That would be another thing to tip me one way or the other.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 15, 2018, 12:48:35 PM
Check NorCal- they have a bunch of nifty innovations and I seem to recall one was a thermowell from the top with an airlock arrangement.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: mabrungard on February 15, 2018, 01:11:07 PM
Iodophor: Embrace the stain
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Big Monk on February 15, 2018, 01:38:43 PM
Iodophor: Embrace the stain

"Don't Fear the Foam" has a much nicer (and much cleaner sounding) ring to it...
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 02:35:44 PM
Check NorCal- they have a bunch of nifty innovations and I seem to recall one was a thermowell from the top with an airlock arrangement.
Thanks!   Combined dip tube and thermowell, ball lock gas in; looks like I could really configure a nice system.  Just have to figure out the right probe to go in the thermowell (ideas welcome) and an airlock alternative to attach to the gas in (ideas welcome again:  spund valve set to almost nothing might work, except what to do when cold crashing and creating negative pressure...)


http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Speidel-Dip-Tube-Thermowell-Half-Inch-NPT-Male.html
http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Speidel-Ball-Lock-Gas-In-with-Pressure-Relief-Valve.html
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 03:54:54 PM
Call them. They are super helpful.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 03:57:07 PM
Iodophor: Embrace the stain

"Don't Fear the Foam" has a much nicer (and much cleaner sounding) ring to it...
Except the full saying is "Bugs... don't fear the foam." Lol
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: blatz on February 15, 2018, 04:00:56 PM
This is what I would use for pressure in(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/63e2316116dc7b0fb9f699bcf0bf8e3c.jpg)

it'd be nice if blichmann made a corny keg lid with a post on it like that...
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Nor cal can build you one. Call them
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: blatz on February 15, 2018, 04:27:25 PM
Nor cal can build you one. Call them

thanks will do!
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 04:30:01 PM
This is what I would use for pressure in(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/63e2316116dc7b0fb9f699bcf0bf8e3c.jpg)

it'd be nice if blichmann made a corny keg lid with a post on it like that...
Carbonation Keg Lid,Ferroday Stainless Steel Carbonation lid With 0.5 Micron Diffusion Air Stone https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M335AXA?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf


Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: blatz on February 15, 2018, 04:34:35 PM
This is what I would use for pressure in(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180206/63e2316116dc7b0fb9f699bcf0bf8e3c.jpg)

it'd be nice if blichmann made a corny keg lid with a post on it like that...
Carbonation Keg Lid,Ferroday Stainless Steel Carbonation lid With 0.5 Micron Diffusion Air Stone https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M335AXA?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf

thanks! yeah I thought about that but the blichmann fermenters have a pressure release weighted piston in there to prevent a pressure disaster;  I want to keep that but add the corny post.

what I do now works, I have a barbed valve at the end of tubing which serves as both blowoff and then a connection to my CO2 tank when transferring.

the more I consider it, the more I think I'm looking for a solution to a problem I don't really have. 
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 04:41:25 PM
That's what the other thing in the picture is, adjustable pressure release.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 15, 2018, 07:12:27 PM
Call them. They are super helpful.

Indeed they are helpful! Thanks for the encouragement.  Questions answered, I am getting a Speidel 30, gas in and pressure relief, and the combined dip tube and thermowell to replace the spigot.  Already have a spare ball valve to use, and with a QD I can connect the gas in to my double-jar airlock thingy.  Just need to pick up a thermometer and some kind of gasket to fit the thermowell.  Hope to have it ready for next brewday; now my process will be completely closed after pitching and oxygenating!  But, like all beer, my beer will still be oxidized.  I know. ;)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 15, 2018, 08:18:39 PM
Cool people. I got a false bottom for my mash tun today, just in time to mash in. Made specifically for my kettle. Fits perfect, works perfect. They even polished the word "Cheers" on the top of it. Can't say anything bad about these guys.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 21, 2018, 08:37:47 PM
Here's my new setup, ready for this weekend's brew!  Will be completely closed after pitching right through serving.  For closed transfer it's gas in the top and jumper from the bottling spigot, which I attached to Nor Cal's threaded port with a 304 stainless reducer.  Kitchen thermometer probe is secured in the thermowell with a rubber grommet.  Nor Cal were super helpful!

Pics:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gzzQ9vDVWFMUIDdm8Mz1wd2HTlvNrmRI/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gcWnuUirU1MR43qwfSqry2ffh0rFrpba/view?usp=drivesdk

EDIT stillage was needed because of extension of the port and spigot, this would be the case with anything using their accessories on the 30 liter.

I have the port at 45° So the dip tube is positioned to leave ~2 qts behind for yeast harvesting.

EDIT 1st pic updated to show final "airlock" configuration.  Skipped the twin jar job.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: coolman26 on February 22, 2018, 12:07:25 PM
I wish these fermenter were around when I bought all of my red screw top fermenters. That flat area and the the threaded mount is key. I like them


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: tommymorris on February 22, 2018, 11:22:46 PM
Jim, you use Iodophor to sanitize?  I am considering a switch from Star San because I read it doesn’t kill everything. Your thoughts?


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The one negative of Iodophor is it doesn’t last nearly as long as Starsan. Iodophor seems to last about 24-48 hours. Starsan can stay in a bucket for weeks or months.

I use both. But Starsan has never let me down and I am not sure I will replace my Iodophor when it runs out.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: coolman26 on February 23, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
Jim, you use Iodophor to sanitize?  I am considering a switch from Star San because I read it doesn’t kill everything. Your thoughts?


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The one negative of Iodophor is it doesn’t last nearly as long as Starsan. Iodophor seems to last about 24-48 hours. Starsan can stay in a bucket for weeks or months.

I use both. But Starsan has never let me down and I am not sure I will replace my Iodophor when it runs out.
I will now use Iodophor for keg purging. I also use it for my flasks and starters. I also am now going to use it periodically on my fermenters. I’ve never had an issue with StarSan either.


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 25, 2018, 01:32:24 AM
Here's my new setup, ready for this weekend's brew!  Will be completely closed after pitching right through serving.  For closed transfer it's gas in the top and jumper from the bottling spigot, which I attached to Nor Cal's threaded port with a 304 stainless reducer.  Kitchen thermometer probe is secured in the thermowell with a rubber grommet.  Nor Cal were super helpful!  Links to pics of dubious photographic quality:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14XIbqnbzuS8lNODjsIaVTWordwC-MVZi/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tVrNvNHXwUhzE9NWglz-fqFOePAWUVGq/view?usp=drivesdk

EDIT stillage was needed because of extension of the port and spigot, this would be the case with anything using their accessories on the 30 liter.

I have the port at 45° So the dip tube is positioned to leave ~2 qts behind for yeast harvesting.

Got the first 6 gal in the new fermenter today!  One thing that occurred to me is that the plastic will be slightly more insulating than glass carboys (in the fridge, bringing it down the last few degrees from wort chiller temp to lager pitching temp took maybe a little longer.)  I've set the fridge thermostat a hair lower than usual and I'll see how it goes. I am really excited about this setup.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gzzQ9vDVWFMUIDdm8Mz1wd2HTlvNrmRI/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: metron-brewer on February 28, 2018, 05:59:27 PM
Here is my final solution. The one I'm getting, the racking cane will actually have a liquid ball lock tip though. Then a jumper from that to the liquid out post on the keg. It doesn't include the orange threaded Speidle collar but I have about 6 extras at home.

I should have it in time to keg my double mash stout, and English IPA. So from here out I'm purging by pushing out sanitizer, and closed transferring. I use Brewtan B in my light colored beers. But that's it! Don't paint me a LODO guy! Lol(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/6e7644232397ec646bb9dac15c206ce5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/25de7907d359da49e92a40a35b3e843e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/4779c4a7afca83c84f4b31f02cb31a2d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/05a9b49acd188f921d81c21a99e5f3c7.jpg)

Jim,
So the gas flows in around the dip tube, pressurizing the fermentor and forcing beer out the dip tube and into the keg? Are you just installing this into the fermentor when it's time to transfer or leaving it in during fermentation? How much for that setup with the ball lock out?
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on February 28, 2018, 06:16:42 PM
Yes, that's how it works. I instal it at the time of transfer. I bought a couple other things along with it and total bill was about $120. I think

It works great but be aware that you need to assemble it with Teflon tape once you get it, and I suggest testing it with a fermentor partially full of sanitizer before hooking it to beer. Make sure your gas in is set to about 5psi first too.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on February 28, 2018, 08:35:56 PM
Here's my new setup, ready for this weekend's brew!  Will be completely closed after pitching right through serving.  For closed transfer it's gas in the top and jumper from the bottling spigot, which I attached to Nor Cal's threaded port with a 304 stainless reducer.  Kitchen thermometer probe is secured in the thermowell with a rubber grommet.  Nor Cal were super helpful!  Links to pics of dubious photographic quality:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14XIbqnbzuS8lNODjsIaVTWordwC-MVZi/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tVrNvNHXwUhzE9NWglz-fqFOePAWUVGq/view?usp=drivesdk

EDIT stillage was needed because of extension of the port and spigot, this would be the case with anything using their accessories on the 30 liter.

I have the port at 45° So the dip tube is positioned to leave ~2 qts behind for yeast harvesting.

Got the first 6 gal in the new fermenter today!  One thing that occurred to me is that the plastic will be slightly more insulating than glass carboys (in the fridge, bringing it down the last few degrees from wort chiller temp to lager pitching temp took maybe a little longer.)  I've set the fridge thermostat a hair lower than usual and I'll see how it goes. I am really excited about this setup.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gzzQ9vDVWFMUIDdm8Mz1wd2HTlvNrmRI/view?usp=drivesdk


Came up with a further mod for my setup to stop me worrying about sanitation.  Nor cal has made me an adapter so where the spigot is in the pics I've linked, I'll have a liquid corny post!  I'll update pics next batch, I think I have a really good closed system now.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 01, 2018, 12:05:49 AM
That makes more sense than a spigot. To me at least. A little easier to actually clean and sanitize right before transfer. We are always told clean then sanitize. I can't bring myself to transfer through a plastic spigot that was cleaned and then sat for a month, then spritzed with starsan. A lot of people do it, and it works for them, but I just cant.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 01, 2018, 12:14:38 AM
That makes more sense than a spigot. To me at least. A little easier to actually clean and sanitize right before transfer. We are always told clean then sanitize. I can't bring myself to transfer through a plastic spigot that was cleaned and then sat for a month, then spritzed with starsan. A lot of people do it, and it works for them, but I just cant.
Yep, I got the idea right before I took a sample today.  This sanitation time bomb had been eating at me.  I was ready to pull a sample and spritz the heck out of the thing and cover it with foil and then it hit me.  Got in touch with Nor Cal and a couple emails and an hour later Jaybird sent me a pic of the thing he's made.  Corny post with a 1/2" female pipe thread to go on the port.  Becky said he was jumping around the shop all excited, she thought it sounded ingenious, and I can't fathom that I might have had an original idea.  Gas in, liquid out, it's like a Speidel and a keg had a baby!

(https://photos.app.goo.gl/zG03378uOlK9bOJg2)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 01, 2018, 12:17:00 AM
Nice
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 02, 2018, 07:49:19 PM
Here is my final solution. The one I'm getting, the racking cane will actually have a liquid ball lock tip though. Then a jumper from that to the liquid out post on the keg. It doesn't include the orange threaded Speidle collar but I have about 6 extras at home.

I should have it in time to keg my double mash stout, and English IPA. So from here out I'm purging by pushing out sanitizer, and closed transferring. I use Brewtan B in my light colored beers. But that's it! Don't paint me a LODO guy! Lol(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/6e7644232397ec646bb9dac15c206ce5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/25de7907d359da49e92a40a35b3e843e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/4779c4a7afca83c84f4b31f02cb31a2d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180207/05a9b49acd188f921d81c21a99e5f3c7.jpg)

Jim,
So the gas flows in around the dip tube, pressurizing the fermentor and forcing beer out the dip tube and into the keg? Are you just installing this into the fermentor when it's time to transfer or leaving it in during fermentation? How much for that setup with the ball lock out?
This is the rig in use. I'm pushing cleaner through it right now (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180302/a4980a0c01c714c90813b2099b91732c.jpg)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 02, 2018, 10:51:54 PM
Looks cool, Jim!  So between us we have two different approaches to this, mine modeled on a conical without the cone, yours on a Sanke.  For the benefit of others thinking about this it looks like the main pros/cons of each might be:  you have to open up your Speidel to put this in, my setup can stay closed throughout;   I have to position my "racking arm" (dip tube) before filling the fermentor and can't move it afterward, while you can position your racking tube as you go.  (As for my thermowell, you could still put one in the bottom if you wanted.)
  PS got my ball lock fitting to go on the port today, it's great.  Thanks pointing me toward Nor Cal and Speidel!
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 02, 2018, 11:34:27 PM
Awesome! The beers I kegged today were open fermented so..  already opened. On beers that I use the airlocks, I simply choose not to concern myself with the air I might get by removing the airlock and installing the transfer spear. My main objective is to not get a buggy washer lifting the fermentor. Not lifting it (disturbing it), and pulling from above the trub, equals clearer beer transfered. There's probably some minimal O2 but probably not nearly as much as I used to get with my auto siphon.

This coupled with now doing a true purge of my kegs, is probably better than before re O2. But the big benefit I see already is totally trub free beer to the keg. Before, no matter how gentle I was, there would be some. Then it would get stirred up when I move the keg to the kegerator. It would take a few more days to resettle. Pain in the butt! That's all done now though. Pretty happy with this setup.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 02, 2018, 11:44:15 PM
Yep, I used to figure I got minimal air popping on my carboy cap rig.  All closed is a bonus, the first priority was not lifting glass carboys!  I may still lift this for transfers but if I do it's a lot less weight and less danger if my back does go out halfway up (always a worry!) 
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: macbrews on March 03, 2018, 09:17:24 PM
I have yet one more variant of a closed transfer to a Speidel. I have a cask breather, so I use it to replace the volume of beer leaving the fermenter with CO2 during a gravity transfer (you could just use pressure instead). The gas out line goes to a bucket of water and gives an audible feedback while it drains. That way I can do other tasks and not have watch it. Once the bubbling is gone, the keg is full.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/ddcd1a974f4df91cbce6eaa392ee4372.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180303/852245889517cec9d8c958e414d8dd39.jpg)



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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 03, 2018, 10:01:30 PM
Cool!  I like the audible monitoring idea, especially as gravity transfer does leave you time to go do something else!
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 04, 2018, 12:34:13 AM
Starsan and a spray bottle. And you fill the keg until beer comes out the gas in port... Thats all the more complicated this needs to be.
This is how I've been doing it. I pull the prv, because if I don't it blows back into the fermentor. Then start beer in. When beer comes out the prv I stop. Then I have a beer out stub and I push out about a pint, till I stop hearing bubbles from the gas in tube.

I shopped for a decent 0-60 scale and they are just too much and not necessary. So far so good
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: lupulus on March 04, 2018, 12:35:12 AM
What would happen if you Connect the keg gas to the top of the Speidel?
Wouldn't gravity move the beer to the keg and keg co2 to the Speidel?

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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 04, 2018, 12:39:05 AM
What would happen if you Connect the keg gas to the top of the Speidel?
Wouldn't gravity move the beer to the keg and keg co2 to the Speidel?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
I don't use gravity. Scroll up to see my configuration. Post #69.  It's basically a Sanke transfer spear, for a Speidel.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: lupulus on March 04, 2018, 12:41:31 AM
What would happen if you Connect the keg gas to the top of the Speidel?
Wouldn't gravity move the beer to the keg and keg co2 to the Speidel?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
I don't use gravity. Scroll up to see my configuration. Post #69.  It's basically a Sanke transfer spear, for a Speidel.
My bad. I was responding to Macbrews and you got your message in before I pressed Send.

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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on March 04, 2018, 01:00:45 AM
Lol
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 04, 2018, 01:10:54 AM
In my arrangement, I know I could run the keg gas back to the Speidel and do gravity, thought about it, but since I have to get the gas bottle out of the keezer to purge the keg anyway, that seems like just one more jumper line to put together.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: coolman26 on March 04, 2018, 04:02:29 AM
I’m digging the Speidel setup. I wish they were around when I was buying my 15 gallon fermenters. I may be able to use some weldless type fitting to rig something like this.


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: macbrews on March 04, 2018, 02:14:36 PM
What would happen if you Connect the keg gas to the top of the Speidel?
Wouldn't gravity move the beer to the keg and keg co2 to the Speidel?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
I probably could. I would guess once I got the beer flowing it would stop at equilibrium which would be visually seen as a fluid level somewhere along the return line to the fermenter.  I’ll give that a try next time.   It might be a while though as I just got a Ss Unitank and will be playing with it for a while.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 05, 2018, 07:32:08 PM
Has anyone experienced leaks at the valve with the added pressure?  I have both plastic 60L Speidel and stainless 15 gallon Chapman fermenting tanks.  Just wondering about the seal at the valve on a weldless bulkhead with standard stainless valve and at the gasket for the Speidel.  Jim solves it with his top racking approach, but I am looking at racking from the low point.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 05, 2018, 08:13:27 PM
Has anyone experienced leaks at the valve with the added pressure?  I have both plastic 60L Speidel and stainless 15 gallon Chapman fermenting tanks.  Just wondering about the seal at the valve on a weldless bulkhead with standard stainless valve and at the gasket for the Speidel.  Jim solves it with his top racking approach, but I am looking at racking from the low point.
I haven't had any leaks adding pressure to draw samples or before cold crashing, I'll be doing my one and only transfer with the system configured as in the pics I've linked tomorrow.  Then I'm replacing the spigot I show with the ball lock fitting Nor Cal made me.  It was more sanitary concerns than pressure that made me modify my design but it should address both.  I'm not sure if you're worried about the valve or the gasket, but Nor Cal' s v-groove gasket seems more fool proof than the standard Speidel item.  I'll let you know how the transfer goes, but I'm confident, as I did test the rig under  pressure with water before putting it into use.  Note the Nor Cal gas in on top has a PRV set to 5psi.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 06, 2018, 03:41:50 PM
Transfer went perfectly.  Used macbrews' audible feedback idea!  Ball lock will make it even easier next time, but under pressure from the bottom works fine.  Didn't get pics, will try to remember in 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 06, 2018, 04:19:15 PM
All cleaned up, sanitized, closed up and ready for next batch;  here's the new ball lock in place:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qloLiFgV0AIyPR8gS3ZlC4XaY7ayDriN/view?usp=drivesdk

Kudos to Jay at Nor Cal.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 20, 2018, 03:05:29 PM
Transfer went perfectly.  Used macbrews' audible feedback idea!  Ball lock will make it even easier next time, but under pressure from the bottom works fine.  Didn't get pics, will try to remember in 2 weeks.

And here's a pic of the setup in action!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18NENcbG78DfZBf0TZ_hwKToANrtgad62/view?usp=drivesdk

Loving this.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: macbrews on March 20, 2018, 10:54:58 PM
Transfer went perfectly.  Used macbrews' audible feedback idea!  Ball lock will make it even easier next time, but under pressure from the bottom works fine.  Didn't get pics, will try to remember in 2 weeks.

And here's a pic of the setup in action!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18NENcbG78DfZBf0TZ_hwKToANrtgad62/view?usp=drivesdk

Loving this.
I’m sure you are aware, but when pushing with pressure to the “audio bucket” you better be Johnny-on-the-spot when the transfer is complete or you’ll lose some beer or certainly a bunch of foam and CO2 blowing out the gas port.  My set up was Gravity fed from a breather so it would stop at equilibrium or when the transfer is complete. 



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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on March 20, 2018, 11:05:23 PM
Macbrews,
I actually plan my length to allow a little loss in transfer, to make sure the keg is full (and then push a little more out to make some head space.)  But you're right, when the noise stops it's flowing!  I only use about 2psi so it does bubble vigorously, but the flow is really fairly slow.  Anyway, thanks for the technique! 

Another thing I've learned about the Speidel is that yeast harvesting is much easier than with a glass carboy; easy to pick it up, swirl and shake, and no worry about air contact.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: macbrews on March 23, 2018, 02:47:20 PM
Since we are looking at closed transfers:
I have a new 7 gal unitank from Ss.  I brewed a Schwarzbier in it and carbonated/conditioned it in the tank to a pressure of about 18 psi at 34 degrees f.
I am pushing CO2  in at 18 PSI through the blow-off tube and receiving it in the keg at 17PSI which is regulated by a spunding valve (it stays at 17 and hisses during the transfer).  Since there is no visual indication of filling, the keg is on a scale to let me know the volume so it doesn’t go into the spunding valve.  Filled the keg in about 10 minutes or so.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180323/544d41b5df47a015fe2d0b8d92b157bd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180323/a469d66fb3b2e82f7c17f310cc9eb86b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180323/3f3eeb960b3293634f8532f91ac4863d.jpg)



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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: blatz on March 23, 2018, 03:15:04 PM
very cool macbrews.

18psi at 34 isn't that awfully high or maybe I missed something?   I'm usually in the 8-10 @37df range for lagers
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: macbrews on March 23, 2018, 04:02:54 PM
very cool macbrews.

18psi at 34 isn't that awfully high or maybe I missed something?   I'm usually in the 8-10 @37df range for lagers
Definitely on the high side. This was the first time I used it and I probably shut off the blow off tubing earlier than I should have. Hopefully I’ll fine tune the process over the next few batches.


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Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on April 04, 2018, 05:12:52 PM
Tried the alternate configuration today, jumping the keg gas back to the Speidel and racking by gravity.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dTK9aejJT9sJLIUu8v9u7S8I1OYviQ9a/view?usp=drivesdk

Pro: needs no supervision, and saves gas (all of $0.45 worth probably!)  Con (possibly): have to elevate the fermenter.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on April 04, 2018, 09:14:35 PM
Tried the alternate configuration today, jumping the keg gas back to the Speidel and racking by gravity.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dTK9aejJT9sJLIUu8v9u7S8I1OYviQ9a/view?usp=drivesdk

Pro: needs no supervision, and saves gas (all of $0.45 worth probably!)  Con (possibly): have to elevate the fermenter.
Pretty slick.

Add a spunding valve and figure out how to not have to move the fermentor and that would be just about as LODO as you could get.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 04, 2018, 09:33:23 PM
Hopefully you purged the O2 from the lines before you racked!  Just kidding!
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on April 04, 2018, 10:27:01 PM
Actually I did purge the lines! The liquid line I purged the keg through, over pressurized it, and bled it through the gas line.  As for not moving the fermenter, that would mean "Less Of the Doctor's Office," right?  Having tried both ways, not sure if I have a preference.  This way is pretty slick, though.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: klickitat jim on April 04, 2018, 10:51:37 PM
Actually I did purge the lines! The liquid line I purged the keg through, over pressurized it, and bled it through the gas line.  As for not moving the fermenter, that would mean "Less Of the Doctor's Office," right?  Having tried both ways, not sure if I have a preference.  This way is pretty slick, though.
No you're thinking of Chiro-Hops. Hop up on the table so the Chiropractor can put you back back together.
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: Robert on April 04, 2018, 11:00:09 PM
 8)
Title: Re: Closed transfer
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 05, 2018, 12:57:52 AM
Way to go!  I did that as well and thought maybe it was overkill for how fast the kegs of lager go at my house (average just a couple weeks plus with a brew crew that visits on weekends)....

Cheers.