Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Brewtopalonian on February 08, 2018, 02:12:59 AM

Title: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 08, 2018, 02:12:59 AM
Alright guys, it is my great pleasure to finally be able to contribute positively to this forum.  I'm going to share with you the best Weizen I've ever had / created.  This is NOT an American Hefeweizen, rather a TRADITIONAL Weizen.  I've found that the most important parts of this recipe are not necessarily the ingredients, but more so the process by which you brew it.  My take:


Ultimate Traditional Weizen:
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.010
Batch Size: 5.75 Gal
ABV: 5%
Carb: 2.9 vols
Color: 3.2 SRM
IBU: 12.6

Water profile:
pH: 8
Calcium: 250ppm
Magnesium: 25ppm
Sodium: 70ppm
Sulfate: 100ppm
Chloride: 280ppm
Bicarbonate: 550pp



Water profile from Bru'n Water (Martin Brungard):

Vienna (boiled)

Calcium: 27ppm
Magnesium: 15ppm
Sodium: 10ppm
Sulfate: 60ppm
Chloride: 15ppm
Bicarbonate: 80ppm

Recipe: 5.25gal, 76% BHEfficiancy

Malts:

4.75lbs Wheat Malt (German) (2.0 SRM)
2.75lbs Pilsner (2 Row, German, 2.0 SRM)
1lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)

Hops:
1oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.8%AA] - 90 60 min

Yeast:

WLP300 (1L starter at 1.035sg for 24 hours)

- Utilize a step mash with an acid rest at 109-113*F for 15 minutes (do NOT add acid prior to this step, optimal pH should be 5.8-6.0 for this step!) to promote clove like flavors and then add your phosphoric Lactic acid if necessary (typically not necessary if you match the water profile) to achieve 5.2-5.6pH prior to the normal protein rest at 122*F for 20 mins, this step gives your Weizen great head retention (especially with unrefined grains found in Germany/Belgium), then raise temp for Sacchrification Rest at 149*F, then finally Mash out at 168*F for 10 mins
- Boil heavily for 90 mionutes to combat DMS.
   - Boil 60 minutes
- Hefe should be hazy, no need for finnings.
- No late addition hops. Maintain bitterness around 10 IBU's to balance bitter with fruit/clove esters and bread malty flavors.
- Ferment between 62-65*F to promote proper yeast attenuation and correct clove/banana flavors.

Fermentation Notes:

Hefe Yeast (WLP 300) is VERY sensitive to temperature change.  Recommend pitching and fermenting at 62*F +/- 1*, then allowing the temp to rise to 64*F over the course of 3 days and hold for two weeks.  This prevents a banana bomb that characterizes American Hefe's.  This being a traditional German Weizen, you want a balance between clove and banana flavor which is achieved primarily through fermentation temperature.

Hope you all enjoy!  Let me know if you make this one with similar results!

Notes about the Edits:

This post was originally titled "Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out", though after some reflection, I believe I still have much to learn and, as such, have changed the title to "Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe" to better capture what has truly occurred here.  I originally had a ridiculous water profile that was harder than granite - something that I really have no idea why it was so.  I have since purchased an RO unit and have building water profiles from scratch using Bru'n Water.  I acted childishly and foolishly and have since apologized to those I may have upset or offended.  I'm not deleting those comments, because I believe that in keeping with ethos, it is important to point out my shortcomings and not disrupt the great advice given by others.  I hope this thread continues on for eternity as we all grow and learn more and more about this particular style (it's a tricky one to be sure!).  Happy Brewing, I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: majorvices on February 10, 2018, 08:46:33 PM
There's V ienna malt listed in the recipe but not an amount. Looks good to me except for maybe the cara-pils.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 10, 2018, 08:53:18 PM
Ah, yes, must have missed that,thanks!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: KellerBrauer on February 11, 2018, 01:04:00 PM
Greetings Brewtopalonian - I’m new to this forum, but would like to say that I have in the past failed miserably at making a good Hefe.  I have never been able to achieve that wonderful banana and clove characteristic that a Weizen is known for.  I have read on more than one occasion that, as you mentioned, it’s the process more than the ingredients.  In any case, my many attempts at this style have all crashed and burned.

I was planning on attempting another Hefe in March (after a two year hiatus from brewing Hefes) so your recipe and procedure comes at a great time.  I’ll let you know how it turns out.  Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 03:03:16 PM
Awesome, glad to hear it! This is hands down the most tricky beer to get right because of a complicated mash and finicky yeast.  Let me know how it turns out!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: erockrph on February 11, 2018, 03:16:15 PM
Is there a reason you're using such a high Sulfate level? I don't like 280 ppm in my IPA's; I can't imagine that much in a hefe.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 03:26:24 PM
Woah!!! Thanks for pointing that out!!! I inverted the numbers when I typed this up!  Should be 100ppm Sulfate and 280ppm Chloride!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 11, 2018, 03:36:34 PM
Brewtopalonian, I'm not about to try this, but if you think your mash is complicated (but effective) here's how the Germans do it:  Mash in HALF the mash at 144°F and after 40 min bring to 158°F to fully gelatinize. Immediately cool to 113°F by addition of the other, cold, half of the mash.  The cold portion contains maltase, which is temperature sensitive and denatured in the normal mash;  it can go to work on the fully gelatinized and partially degraded mash to produce glucose, which is what gives you the banana aroma. After 40 min, raise the whole to 158°F for conversion and then mash off.  (They omit protein rests because, as Germans, they use no unmalted grain and protein rests on malt kill the foam.) Glucose is only about 10% of normal wort sugars, but this process brings it to 40%.  Your process is obviously taking advantage of maltase at 113°F but this process gives it even more available material to work on.  Supposed to increase isoamyl acetate (banana) by up to 120% and reduce acetaldhyde by 40%.  If you're really Hefeweizen-obsessed, this may be something you'd care to try.  You, not me!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 03:43:31 PM
Haha thanks Robert!  I've found significantly similar information to what you've provided through my research.  I found that my process works well given my set up.  Iat try the even more traditional method some day just to say I did it.  I really don't favor a heavy Banana flavor in my beer.  I know that having SOME is characteristic in traditional Weizens, but, it is more common to have heavier clove flavors with subtle banana flavors in traditional Weizens.  That's why I don't go for that flavor in the malting process and again keep the fermentation temp low to prevent too much of it coming out during fermentation.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 11, 2018, 03:47:56 PM
Yeah, it sounded like you'd definitively customuzed/optimized your process; but if you didn't know about the other method, it also sounded like you might be the only guy around who might even try it!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 03:52:02 PM
Hahahaha that's definitely true.  I'm not a hefe fanatic tbh.  My wife is though.... So.... Happy wife, happy life.  And it gives me the leverage I need to buy more brewing equipment 😉
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: mabrungard on February 11, 2018, 03:57:45 PM
Wow! Having sent a Hefewiezen to the NHC second round in years past, I have to say this differs quite a bit from weizen brewing concepts that I've developed.

First, the water profile is fairly mineralized and is far more mineralized than I expect for the style. Hefe is not a style that benefits or needs that much mineralization. The sulfate level is crazy high for this style. (I see that the OP corrected this in the post)  As an example of what German brewers use, the water across almost all of Bavaria has fairly low mineralization, especially when pre-boiled.

Second, the use of phosphoric acid is actually counterproductive to the flavor profile for this style. Lactic is an asset in the style. However, the bicarbonate level in that water would make it almost impossible to employ lactic acid alone. The lactic twang would be pronounced. Yet another reason that the water recommendations are iffy.

The recommendation to keep mash pH higher during the ferrulic rest is sound. That does improve the ferrulic acid production and subsequent clovey 4VG. 

Third, the relatively minor pils content is no where near high enough to make a 90 min boil necessary to avoid DMS. Since going to 60 min boils for my high pils content beers, I can attest that DMS reduction does not require a hard or long boil when you're at an elevation of less than 1000 ft. All the long and hard boil does is darken and damage the wort. Hefe can be a short-lived beer and excessive boiling doesn't help.

I do agree that a low ferment temp is required to avoid creating a banana bomb.  Having judged hundreds of hefeweizens in competition, excessive banana is a real turn off. However, I do feel that a hint of banana and vanilla is appropriate in a great hefe. I aim for 63F, close enough.

While I appreciate the OP's contribution, I'm worried that an anonymous submission with surprisingly uncharacteristic parameters might actually be a trolling exercise. I look forward to the OP posting their name so that we can verify that you've won gold in a NHC or MCAB event.


PS: decoction helps reduce DMS in beers by accelerating the conversion of SMM to DMS. DMS is easily removed from any wort with a gentle, open, 30 min boil When dealing with pils malt, its the conversion from SMM to DMS that takes extra boil time. Under 1000 ft, 30 + 30 min is sufficient in my experience.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 04:13:53 PM
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 11, 2018, 04:21:35 PM
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.

Wow!

Good thing I didn't post my thoughts on how you were way off.....
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 04:24:24 PM
Wow, you can all f##k off then.  This is why I don't post on forums.  Silly me, thinking this is supposed to be a community to help each other out, and here you asshats are trying to tear me apart for being proud of a beer I made. f##k off.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 11, 2018, 04:27:31 PM
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.

Wow man. Martin is a well known and well liked (not to mention well respected) contributor here and on other forums. Not a good way to start here.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 04:31:16 PM
In my opinion, respect earns respect.  Maybe Martin should make my beer and try it first before tearing me apart based solely on recipe construction.  He replied to something I am proud of and used a condescending tone with me.  He's a pretentious asshat.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: mabrungard on February 11, 2018, 04:43:04 PM
My apologies, when someone (an anonymous someone, at that) comes in and claims that they've got all the answers and those answers seem odd, I've got to at least put a question mark out there.

PS: I agreed with a number of the OP's points. I'm sorry to have offended.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 11, 2018, 04:43:29 PM
In my opinion, respect earns respect.  Maybe Martin should make my beer and try it first before tearing me apart based solely on recipe construction.  He replied to something I am proud of and used a condescending tone with me.  He's a pretentious asshat.
He's what you call a nationally renowned authority.  If you seek out a forum to share information and learn, well, we've all learned a lot from him. He's a nationally ranked beer judge, water expert, and is footnoted in more brewing books than I can count.  I am very glad he hangs around this forum so we can get his input directly and -- get this -- in his friendly, helpful, and gracious manner.

PS I too hope not to offend or sound condescending with regard to the OP.  (Nor to inflate Martin's ego.)
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: erockrph on February 11, 2018, 04:51:39 PM
In my opinion, respect earns respect.  Maybe Martin should make my beer and try it first before tearing me apart based solely on recipe construction.  He replied to something I am proud of and used a condescending tone with me.  He's a pretentious asshat.

Did you discuss in person, or over the phone? As far as I'm aware, I've never heard any tone when reading forum messages.

In your original post, you stated that you want to make a positive contribution here. Please be mindful that this a discussion forum rather than simply a recipe site. I'd recommend against posting if you're not willing to accept constructive criticism. Once you put your post up, it becomes fair game for discussion - you don't own it any more.

If it weren't what I've learned on this site from other brewers (and Martin is right at the top of that list), I would likely have given up on this hobby years ago. Whether or not you decide to incorporate any advice you see here in your own brewing is up to you, but that's no reason to become a roadblock in the discussion that has started up.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 11, 2018, 05:22:24 PM
Martin,

My name is Jared Fuller.  Don't waste your time researching, as I've not won any competition anywhere in anything.  I've been home brewing for about 10 years now.  I have no desire to enter competitions, I simply want to make good beer at home.  I live in Utah, no good beer here due to silly regulations.  (I suppose that's not completely true, you can get good beer if you buy it in bottles at the state run liquor stores.... for a ridiculous price).  I was offended because you called me a troll and came at this as though I had attacked your very person.  I never intended to say I had ALL the answers simply that I have FINALLY (after attempting 13 batches of this in different manners) created a Hefe that I'm very proud of.  It was my intention to give this recipe to the forums, since much of the information I've found was obtained from here, in combination with several excellent books, mainly "How to Brew" by John Palmer, "Water" by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, "Malt" by John Mallet, "Hops" by Stan Hieronymus, and "Yeast" by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff.  None of which were authored by you, so forgive me if I've not heard of you or your credentials. 

Like I said, I'm not in this to win a Gold or whatever it is that competition brewers do.  I'm in this to create great beer that I like.  No nose knows like your nose knows.  If you don't like it based on my recipe, I beg you try mine before you judge me completely.  Then, if it's not a good hefe, feel free to let me know what you didn't like about it. 

I only joined the forums so I could find good information about what has and has not worked for people in certain recipes.  I'm not here to gloat, I just wanted to give back to a community that I had used as a good resource in the past.  I don't post often, because it seems as though, unless you're a medal winner in some competition, you get torn apart.  Instead of talking to me in the third person as the "OP", perhaps say "hey man, this is how I have done mine in the past, maybe you want to try this?" or "have you tried doing it this way?", not "As a professional, this is incorrect and this person is a troll".... see how tone changes?

Thanks
Jared
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: mabrungard on February 11, 2018, 05:47:30 PM
Jared,

I was worried that your original post was a troll that could end up leading an innocent brewer astray. I wasn't trying to be mean. The title you applied to the thread should make any brewer take notice and want to follow your advice.

I'm OK with bravado when its backed up. For instance, I'll grudgingly accept recommendations from Jamil Zaneshaff and Gordon Strong. But I still do other research and bind that all together with my findings and experience. For example, I was floored a few months ago when there was a scientific brewing journal that published actual data that shows that grists with HIGHER percentage of barley produce more 4VG in weizens. I had assumed it was the wheat that helped form that component (its a wheat beer, after all!!). So I learned something. I'll admit that what you've written could still prove to be the ticket to better weizen, its just that I'm looking for strong proof.

I greatly appreciate forum contributors that stand up for what they write. Thank you for stepping out of the shadow and I look forward to tasting and discussing your beers with you some day.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 11, 2018, 05:48:27 PM
Martin may not have written those books but Palmer and Kaminsky do cite him as their source many times.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: klickitat jim on February 11, 2018, 05:53:56 PM



I'm OK with bravado when its backed up. For instance, I'll grudgingly accept recommendations from Jamil Zaneshaff and Gordon Strong. But I still do other research...


AWESOME!!! Thanks for that, Martin. 🤣
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 11, 2018, 06:01:25 PM
Aaaaand...Jim is here to readjust our attitude!😁
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 11, 2018, 06:14:20 PM
^^^^^
Just opened my fortune cookie: "He who learns to laugh at himself will never cease to be amused."
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 12, 2018, 12:12:52 PM
Brewtopaloian: thanks for sharing the recipe. I’m not exactly sure why this is sooo “uncharacteristic...” to be called a troll. The water is a bit unusual, but who cares. I’m kinda interested now in what that level of sulfate does to a hefe. I’ve bumped chloride up a bunch in the past, and I actually prefer mine with a slightly elevated chloride level (or maybe it’s the calcium.)

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe, and I’m sure my recipe is “uncharacteristic, wrong or way off” too. The fact that you’re proud of, and enjoy drinking your creation is vastly more important than what folks/trolls say on the internet. ✌️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 12, 2018, 10:10:03 PM
I guess I never did address Martin's concern of overly mineralized water.  My explanation for addition of minerals is to promote a bready malt flavor extracted from the grains.  It was my hopes (and success) that in adding these minerals I would achieve a pleasant bread-like characteristic in the beer.  How much of a difference this made is unknown because when I began building the recipe I had always added these minerals and never tried it with just tap or RO water. 
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 12, 2018, 10:51:34 PM
I guess I never did address Martin's concern of overly mineralized water.  My explanation for addition of minerals is to promote a bready malt flavor extracted from the grains.  It was my hopes (and success) that in adding these minerals I would achieve a pleasant bread-like characteristic in the beer.  How much of a difference this made is unknown because when I began building the recipe I had always added these minerals and never tried it with just tap or RO water.
I have to admit I still don't quite get the high bicarbonate concentration.   Is this somehow contributing to the ferulic rest?  I know I would try to get it in the range where I could acidity with lactic only (the only acid I like to use as it's natural.to the brewing process) but I brew mainly Pils and don't pretend to know the ins and outs of Weizen. Could you explain the bicarb?  On the rest of your minerals, I agree that some degree of sulfate seems to draw a grainy flavor from the malt, chloride alone gives a much less complex malt flavor (seems that way to me at least. )
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 12, 2018, 11:01:47 PM
Hmm, that's a good question on the bicarb.  I guess I never questioned it.  I took the water profile suggestion from another website dedicated to water (can't remember for the life of me which one).  But I remember searching for "how to impart bready flavors in beer" and found that...  But now that you andartin have pointed out, I'm not sure why there is a high bicarb level.  Even with it so high, I did not need to add any acid.  My pH at sacchrification was 5.4 which as o understand is within the acceptable tolerance.  Maybe try without any bicarb? Maybe I'll keep playing around with it and get that perfect.

Maybe, I'm right on the cusp of the Ultimate Weizen and just need to adopt some of this input.  After 13 batches, I'm pretty happy with it right now, but of course there's always room for improvement eh?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 12, 2018, 11:30:42 PM
Germans don’t use hard water.  Ever.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 12, 2018, 11:40:06 PM
Yep, I've been in pursuit of the perfect Pils forever.  I've brewed the perfect one a lot of times -- and as soon as I clean up from brewing I have an idea how to tweak it.  And once in a while blow the while thing up!  I always say, if I ever really got a beer perfect, what would I do for the rest of my life?  ;D
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: majorvices on February 12, 2018, 11:44:24 PM
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.

I'm sorry you got upset by Martin's post but I can assure you that he was not trying to "be a dick" and I can also assure you that he has forgotten more about water than you and I know together. He's an expert in the field, and is a genuine "water engineer". And I have met him personally several time and I can completely assure you he is one of the nicest and smartest guys you would ever have a pleasure to meet.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 12, 2018, 11:46:05 PM
Thanks Major.  I'm pretty sure we're over it now.  Got the clarification on his intentions in his post and feel better about it now.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 12, 2018, 11:54:42 PM
Germans don’t use hard water.  Ever.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is Dortmund in a different country?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 12:01:41 AM
Germans don’t use hard water.  Ever.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is Dortmund in a different country?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They just don't use the water as-is, that is, while it's still hard. They've always been at the cutting edge of water treatment.  Adding and removing minerals is not against the Reinheitsgebot .  As long as the charges balance so that a water is _cosistent with_ the composition of a natural water supply, it doesnt have to _actually be_ a natural supply.  More proof that the RHG is just plain silly.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 12:10:56 AM
Germans don’t use hard water.  Ever.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is Dortmund in a different country?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They just don't use the water as-is, that is, while it's still hard. They've always been at the cutting edge of water treatment.  Adding and removing minerals is not against the Reinheitsgebot .  As long as the charges balance so that a water is _cosistent with_ the composition of a natural water supply, it doesnt have to _actually be_ a natural supply.  More proof that the RHG is just plain silly.

I agree wholeheartedly.

The water is still hard though, that was my point.

Not a fan of generalizations, that’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 12:15:54 AM
Water with minerals is much different than hard water.  It’s not a generalization it’s literally in all the German brewing texts.  Hard water and pale beers don’t work. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 12:20:08 AM
Not sure I follow the logic here...

Hardness is a measure of calcium and magnesium mineral content...
Are you referring to alkalinity?

Ever is a generalization... always!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 13, 2018, 12:25:43 AM
okay guys, here's the deal: 

This is a photo of exactly what I did in beersmith.  I used the Salt Lake City water profile and adjusted it with those minerals you see there.  I do good? dunno, your call.  Beer tastes great though.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RzQr1-2g23AxivBErZzLMBwqgZ3mo9LU
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 12:29:49 AM
Not sure I follow the logic here...

Hardness is a measure of calcium and magnesium mineral content...
Are you referring to alkalinity?

Ever is a generalization... always!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Let me put it this way.  You show me a professional German brewery that brews with hard water (not Americans who claim to know Germany), and I shall retract my statement. 

I’ll see if I find anything in here. 
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/fac6e451766bb960cd33b55d71dfa19e.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 12:46:30 AM
Aren’t you an American claiming to know Germany?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 12:53:36 AM
Aren’t you an American claiming to know Germany?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indeed.  Hence why I said let’s get the brewery to answer.  I could very well be wrong, maybe all the professional German brewing literature, and the professionals I know over there use it and it’s all a farce. 

FYI I found nothing. 
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/a1aa81281a3437fdedfd272d1582d962.jpg)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 13, 2018, 01:01:06 AM
did anyone check my screenshot?
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 01:04:08 AM
So to get the discussion back on track, I pride myself on my weissbier and it’s just like sitting in Munich in a Biergarten.
Did you have a goal for a commercial example? 
My favorite is W.  Hefe. 
What every one fails to realize is that weiss production is as precise as lager production. It's yeast dominated so people think they are easy to do because of all the phenolics of the yeast, but it's couldn't be more wrong. There are so many nuances to these beers.. Yeasty, phenolic, clove, banana, dough, lingering malt, sauergut, etc.  It's these same reasons why I feel every american version sucks and pales in comparison. You can't go off bottles either cause, because they are oxidized, and some of the flavors that come though are oxidized flavors, namely honey.

So what would I do if I was trying to reproduce W hefeweiss bier here at home??

Step 1 Low oxygen brewhouse.

60% Weyermann Wheat malz
35% Weyermann Barke Pils
5% Weyermann carahell

Step mash (non decoction on our scale due to oxidation).
30 minute rest at 114 (to enhance esters and clove)
then step up though beta
147 for 30-40
163 for 30
170-10

Do not adjust pH at all let it ride.
Soft water, I like 40ish ppm ca, 70cl, 20na.

Pristine wort preboil, soft boil 60minutes
a 60min addition of hallertau mittlefuh, to about 12-14ibu
Drop post boil pH to 5.1 with a dose of sauergut
hot and cold break separation
5ppm 02, 1 smack pack per 5g of 3068
Ferment at 68F (to enhance banana)
Spund or Krausen to 4 vols.

That will do you good. At least thats how I would (do) do it. 

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/13f10c78540bdc41cdb4cfbfdceeacb4.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: KellerBrauer on February 13, 2018, 01:05:32 AM
Wow!  Lots of hostility about a recipe.  For what it’s worth, I still plan on brewing the recipe as shown in this post. 

Also, for what it’s worth, I asked Martin many months ago if he would be interested in simply removing the color background from just the Instructions section of his spreadsheet so a person could print, and read, the instructions while learning and working the spreadsheet.  This would enable a nice clean printout without using tons of color ink.  Well, he never replied and has since sent out two upgrades, none of which included the instructions suitable for printing.  So, Point is, while I respect Martins work and his authority on the subject of Water, as a person interested in assisting fellow brewers, he leaves a great deal to be desired - at least in my eyes.  I too found his comments to be condescending and rude.

Regardless of what your authority or level of expertise, you should always treat others with the same respect you wish to be treated yourself.

Sorry for the rant.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 01:18:18 AM
Brewtalopian: looked at the screenshot, but it’s hard to assess your additions without the starting water profile. That said with your final numbers I’d venture a guess that you have a fairly high level of minerals in your source water.

Can I ask what the impetus was behind the water additions? Curious if you’ve ever made it without mineral additions.

I have relatively soft water, so I’ve always added calcium (hardness) to my mashes. 1g/gal works well for me, I feel like it gives a slightly better mouthfeel and roundness on the palate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 01:40:27 AM
Beerery: I agree with you that most German beers are made with softened water. I just didn’t like the fact that someone shared something and right away people are telling him he’s categorically wrong (I know it happens to you all the time as well.) None of us have tasted this beer, maybe he found a better way, who knows.

Oh and how does the rest at 114 promote esters (genuinely asking?)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 01:44:39 AM
Wow!  Lots of hostility about a recipe.  For what it’s worth, I still plan on brewing the recipe as shown in this post. 

Also, for what it’s worth, I asked Martin many months ago if he would be interested in simply removing the color background from just the Instructions section of his spreadsheet so a person could print, and read, the instructions while learning and working the spreadsheet.  This would enable a nice clean printout without using tons of color ink.  Well, he never replied and has since sent out two upgrades, none of which included the instructions suitable for printing.  So, Point is, while I respect Martins work and his authority on the subject of Water, as a person interested in assisting fellow brewers, he leaves a great deal to be desired - at least in my eyes.  I too found his comments to be condescending and rude.

Regardless of what your authority or level of expertise, you should always treat others with the same respect you wish to be treated yourself.

Sorry for the rant.

Why don’t you just print it in black and white?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 01:45:49 AM
Beerery: I agree with you that most German beers are made with softened water. I just didn’t like the fact that someone shared something and right away people are telling him he’s categorically wrong (I know it happens to you all the time as well.) None of us have tasted this beer, maybe he found a better way, who knows.

Oh and how does the rest at 114 promote esters (genuinely asking?)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

On promotion of banana ester (isoamyl acetate) see my reply #7.  By the way this is either the way the Germans do it, or Kunze is an American who thinks he knows Germany. ;)

Same rest promotes ferulic acid formation, which yeast turns to 4VG (clove.)
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: KellerBrauer on February 13, 2018, 01:51:12 AM
Wow!  Lots of hostility about a recipe.  For what it’s worth, I still plan on brewing the recipe as shown in this post. 

Also, for what it’s worth, I asked Martin many months ago if he would be interested in simply removing the color background from just the Instructions section of his spreadsheet so a person could print, and read, the instructions while learning and working the spreadsheet.  This would enable a nice clean printout without using tons of color ink.  Well, he never replied and has since sent out two upgrades, none of which included the instructions suitable for printing.  So, Point is, while I respect Martins work and his authority on the subject of Water, as a person interested in assisting fellow brewers, he leaves a great deal to be desired - at least in my eyes.  I too found his comments to be condescending and rude.

Regardless of what your authority or level of expertise, you should always treat others with the same respect you wish to be treated yourself.

Sorry for the rant.

Why don’t you just print it in black and white?

Great question. Because the color background would print gray. The color background doesn’t need to be there. White background with black text prints well. Good question, glad you pointed that out!  Alternatively, the instructions can be sent as a separate document ready for print. That’s easy enough.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 01:52:49 AM
That’s for that other mash though, a standard mash won’t have maltose at that low temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 01:53:53 AM
Wow!  Lots of hostility about a recipe.  For what it’s worth, I still plan on brewing the recipe as shown in this post. 

Also, for what it’s worth, I asked Martin many months ago if he would be interested in simply removing the color background from just the Instructions section of his spreadsheet so a person could print, and read, the instructions while learning and working the spreadsheet.  This would enable a nice clean printout without using tons of color ink.  Well, he never replied and has since sent out two upgrades, none of which included the instructions suitable for printing.  So, Point is, while I respect Martins work and his authority on the subject of Water, as a person interested in assisting fellow brewers, he leaves a great deal to be desired - at least in my eyes.  I too found his comments to be condescending and rude.

Regardless of what your authority or level of expertise, you should always treat others with the same respect you wish to be treated yourself.

Sorry for the rant.

Why don’t you just print it in black and white?

Great question. Because the color background would print gray. The color background doesn’t need to be there. White background with black text prints well. Good question, glad you pointed that out!

I never found the instructions in Brun Water all that necessary I guess.
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 01:55:23 AM
That’s for that other mash though, a standard mash won’t have maltose at that low temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Hermann maische verfahren? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 01:58:53 AM
That’s for that other mash though, a standard mash won’t have maltose at that low temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What I gather is that it will, but at lower levels.  The special process maximizes maltase activity to make those really bananish beers. The OP made a point that he likes less banana, and maybe Beerery does too, so the straight upward mash gives enough glucose for their taste.  Do you want mainstream Munich Weizen or some funky little country brewer's beer?  More than one way to skin a...um, the cat just jumped up.  Better not say it.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 01:59:06 AM
Yeah that one. That’s what Robert was talking about, but your doing the standard mash, if I’m reading correctly. Curious as to how 114 would promote isoamyl acetate that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:03:31 AM
To me open fermentation, cool temp, and time (always curious if isoamyl oxidizes extracellularly providing isoamyl acetate) gives me banana.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:03:55 AM
Yeah that one. That’s what Robert was talking about, but your doing the standard mash, if I’m reading correctly. Curious as to how 114 would promote isoamyl acetate that way.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If the normal mash yields 10% glucose, and the special process 40%, and glucose is the key to isoamyl acetate production, that seems to me to describe the range of intensity of the ester in Weizens. 
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:09:58 AM
But it needs maltose to break into glucose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 02:12:01 AM
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:20:05 AM
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBut
Yep ch. 7 is the majority process like yours.  The Maltase Process in ch. 4 is intended to make super estery (more traditional country style) beers.  Matter of taste.  As to hackrsackr's question on where the Glucose comes from in the normal mash,  well all mashes produce some.  There's just normally a limit of 10% because the maltase was denatured above 114 before it had a good dinner.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:20:17 AM
Interesting. I’ve never read about ester production from those really low mash rests.

I like a moderate amount of banana and a lot of clove. I use 380 which naturally throws a bunch of isoamyl acetate, and ferment cool to stop it from making bubblegum. The clove usually appears after speise and natural carbonation. I feel like the high pressure coaxes the 4vg out of the yeast in the secondary fermentation.

Always struggled with consistent banana from 3068.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:22:29 AM
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBut
Yep ch. 7 is the majority process like yours.  The Maltase Process in ch. 4 is intended to make super estery (more traditional country style) beers.  Matter of taste.  As to hackrsackr's question on where the Glucose comes from in the normal mash,  well all mashes produce some.  There's just normally a limit of 10% because the maltase was denatured above 114 before it had a good dinner.

I get that some glucose is always made, just wondering how that rest makes more, or increases the amount of glucose/isoA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 02:25:19 AM
Well I balance banana with the warmer fermentation.  I use 114 to balance clove or ester or yeasty( different rest times promote different profiles). There is a blurb about it in chapter 7 iirc.
W is my beer. It has slight banana. The Other mash which is split 60/40 makes a crazy estery beer. It’s wild.  But it oxidizes the mash too much for me and I then lose the lingering fresh malt that has to be in there. 




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBut
Yep ch. 7 is the majority process like yours.  The Maltase Process in ch. 4 is intended to make super estery (more traditional country style) beers.  Matter of taste.  As to hackrsackr's question on where the Glucose comes from in the normal mash,  well all mashes produce some.  There's just normally a limit of 10% because the maltase was denatured above 114 before it had a good dinner.

I get that some glucose is always made, just wondering how that rest makes more, or increases the amount of glucose/isoA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because it’s below the denaturing point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:27:03 AM
So it’s just the default amount that all acid rests produce...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
There still isn’t maltose though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:31:04 AM
The whole point of that mash is make maltose, put back in a mash with active maltase, makes glucose and fructose(?)...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:31:55 AM
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:33:30 AM
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 02:36:12 AM
Right. You need the special mash OR you can influence it with other non-RHG methods.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:38:34 AM
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, you get 10% glucose like any other mash; but that is irrelevant with most yeast.  With a Weizen yeast that makes isoamyl acetate from glucose, that's pretty noticeable.   If you want even more...
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:40:32 AM
Right. You need the special mash OR you can influence it with other non-RHG methods.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Non-conforming methods such as?  Now I've really gotten sucked into this.... ???
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:42:43 AM
Pitch rate and temp is the way I tackle it. That and I wholeheartedly believe in open fermentation for isoA production. The aerobic early fermentation does something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:44:09 AM
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, you get 10% glucose like any other mash; but that is irrelevant with most yeast.  With a Weizen yeast that makes isoamyl acetate from glucose, that's pretty noticeable.   If you want even more...

I think you may need to revisit that hypothesis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:45:51 AM
I never thought I'd get so into a conversation about a beer style that, after a flirtation in Bavaria in summer '85, I probably feel like drinking once every couple of years.  Beer + science = addictive fun. :D.
 
Simple:  maltase breaks maltose into glucose, but it is denatured at a low temp and so is not active in a normal mash.  Adding the partially converted and fully gelatinized material to the cold portion that still has Maltase allows it to have a go for once.  In the normal mash Glucose has nothing to do with the lower temp rests, it's just part of the normal product of amylase activity.
Exactly! That’s my point. The standard mash won’t make appreciable glucose at the low rest temp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, you get 10% glucose like any other mash; but that is irrelevant with most yeast.  With a Weizen yeast that makes isoamyl acetate from glucose, that's pretty noticeable.   If you want even more...

I think you may need to revisit that hypothesis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Revisit what part?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:47:57 AM
You’re confusing amalase derived glucose (standard mash) with maltase derived glucose (special mash.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:48:33 AM
The yeast is what is irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 02:52:33 AM
Glucose is glucose.  What matters is how much of it there is for the yeast to do with as it will, no?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:56:09 AM
During the standard mash amalase has not yet broken amylopectin down into maltose, while you are in the range that maltase is active. Maltase can not break down amylopectin branches. Maltase is then denatured before amalase make the 10% glucose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 02:57:35 AM
The 114 rest will only make glucose/isoA if it has been broken down by amalase first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 02:59:52 AM
Everything we do on our scale is better than the best shallowest commercial fermenter there is.  Hydrostatically speaking that is.  A 5 gallon fermenter has very little.  I can’t imagine there is a difference. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JJeffers09 on February 13, 2018, 03:02:54 AM
I thought the same.  Not to be an as what, but this isn't traditional, and tbh neither is my recipe at 60/20/20 dark wheat/munich/pils but it works

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:03:30 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 03:09:24 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would think the opposite is true, i.e. ester synthesis is stunted with larger amounts of yeast growth (access to oxygen). The open fermentation matters very little in our setting as any homebrew fermenter will promote higher levels of esters by default due to the geometry and scale. It’s why homebrewers tend to get better results with Trappist yeasts by limiting fermentation temperature even though it often differs greatly from the commercial examples.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 03:11:43 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don’t notice any extra clove and I spund to 4vol. 


I don’t follow the second.  The head space of the fermenter is full of oxygen for at least a day after pitching due to the nature of gas mixing laws. Also if you oxygenate with pure o2 it’s in the liquid as well.  Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).  The water column pressure on an airlock is pretty much null as well.  So not sure on that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:11:56 AM
Hmm... may want to revisit that hypothesis. Esters come from growth. The access to oxygen keeps a small pitch of yeast in the growth phase longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 03:13:49 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JJeffers09 on February 13, 2018, 03:14:21 AM
Hmm... may want to revisit that hypothesis. Esters come from growth. The access to oxygen keeps a small pitch of yeast in the growth phase longer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Esters come from precursors in the mash, that honestly get metabolized and dispelled in the lag phase IIRC, I need a point of reference but I'm in a hotel waiting room.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:14:32 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:17:23 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Not arguing any of that. Just saying that the 114 rest in a standard mash does not make glucose. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:22:21 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don’t notice any extra clove and I spund to 4vol. 


I don’t follow the second.  The head space of the fermenter is full of oxygen for at least a day after pitching due to the nature of gas mixing laws. Also if you oxygenate with pure o2 it’s in the liquid as well.  Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).  The water column pressure on an airlock is pretty much null as well.  So not sure on that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I speise to a little less than 4 vols and usually don’t notice the 4vg until after second ferment. Just an anecdotal observation and I’m using 380.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 03:23:31 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Not arguing any of that. Just saying that the 114 rest in a standard mash does not make glucose. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right.  The downward mash is just the only way to increase glucose.

Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember,  it's a fuzzy gradation, not a bright line, separating the stages of yeast metabolism.  At any stage you can change conditions and influence some aspect, to some degree.  Biology's messy.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 03:25:45 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:25:52 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Not arguing any of that. Just saying that the 114 rest in a standard mash does not make glucose. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right.  The downward mash is just the only way to increase glucose.

Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember,  it's a fuzzy gradation, not a bright line, separating the stages of yeast metabolism.  At any stage you can change conditions and influence some aspect, to some degree.  Biology's messy.
Right! I’m just saying that I’m (me just me) a firm believer in the tradition of open fermentation. I believe that is one way to affect the fuzzy gradation. Make sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 03:27:28 AM
^^^^
Yep!  BTW:

I have just noticed that this thread may have set a 2018 record for most consecutive on topic, non acrimonious posts.  Yay us.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 03:35:08 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Not arguing any of that. Just saying that the 114 rest in a standard mash does not make glucose. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right.  The downward mash is just the only way to increase glucose.

Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember,  it's a fuzzy gradation, not a bright line, separating the stages of yeast metabolism.  At any stage you can change conditions and influence some aspect, to some degree.  Biology's messy.
Right! I’m just saying that I’m (me just me) a firm believer in the tradition of open fermentation. I believe that is one way to affect the fuzzy gradation. Make sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Curious for your response to my open fermentation remarks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:35:21 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:36:15 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Not arguing any of that. Just saying that the 114 rest in a standard mash does not make glucose. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right.  The downward mash is just the only way to increase glucose.

Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember,  it's a fuzzy gradation, not a bright line, separating the stages of yeast metabolism.  At any stage you can change conditions and influence some aspect, to some degree.  Biology's messy.
Right! I’m just saying that I’m (me just me) a firm believer in the tradition of open fermentation. I believe that is one way to affect the fuzzy gradation. Make sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Curious for your response to my open fermentation remarks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry, which part exactly?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 03:38:23 AM
To clarify I think the pressure in the krausening or second ferment drives 4vg.

The isoA I believe is influenced by the access to oxygen through the growth phase. ie open ferm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IsoA and 4VG are both fermentation byproducts of specific yeasts, and yeasts with a propensity to produce them can be influenced to do so in various ways.  With respect to isoA  temperature and oxygenation can drive it to a limit set by the available glucose; to surpass that limit more glucose is needed: enter the downward mash program.  The same can be said of 4VG; temperature and oxygenation can influence production but the limiting substrate is ferulic acid, produced at 114°F.
Not arguing any of that. Just saying that the 114 rest in a standard mash does not make glucose. That’s all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Right.  The downward mash is just the only way to increase glucose.

Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember,  it's a fuzzy gradation, not a bright line, separating the stages of yeast metabolism.  At any stage you can change conditions and influence some aspect, to some degree.  Biology's messy.
Right! I’m just saying that I’m (me just me) a firm believer in the tradition of open fermentation. I believe that is one way to affect the fuzzy gradation. Make sense?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Curious for your response to my open fermentation remarks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry, which part exactly?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No problem.  It’s probably buried. 


“I don’t follow the second.  The head space of the fermenter is full of oxygen for at least a day after pitching due to the nature of gas mixing laws. Also if you oxygenate with pure o2 it’s in the liquid as well.  Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).  The water column pressure on an airlock is pretty much null as well.  So not sure on that.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:46:34 AM
Oh yeah. Well your DO stuff is right on point but I’m talking about the affect of atmospheric oxygen mixing with head the space. With an airlock it’s used up real quick, with open ferm the access to atmospheric oxygen IMO prolongs the growth phase a bit, produces a higher krausen as  it seems to reach for the O2. Open ferm let’s scrape the bitter hop purge brown stuff (day 2). Transfer to speise on day three, open the whole time. That’s how I do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:50:59 AM
It’s like the yeast don’t want to switch metabolic pathways until all oxygen is completely gone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 03:51:23 AM
FWIW significant isoA production is not limited to Weizen or Belgian yeasts; Saaz-type lager yeasts can produce it as well.  The pale lagers from the (namesake) Žateč brewery have a distinct banana note.  They still use open primaries.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 03:53:12 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:54:00 AM
Oh I know all about it. Unfortunately. Warmer growth phase will make em throw isoA too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 03:55:15 AM
Oh I know all about it. Unfortunately. Warmer growth phase will make em throw isoA too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just some constructive criticism: it makes it easier to read if you quote the person you are responding to.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:55:17 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 03:55:56 AM
Oh I know all about it. Unfortunately. Warmer growth phase will make em throw isoA too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just some constructive criticism: it makes it easier to read if you quote the person you are responding to.
Thanks mom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 13, 2018, 04:00:07 AM
^^^^^
I have just noticed that this thread may have set a 2018 record for most consecutive on topic, non acrimonious posts.  Yay us.
Don't blow it.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 04:01:38 AM
🤙


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 04:10:16 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/456510adf247518148c549a30a192934.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/40b96794487b8fb1103d2887212c2d07.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/67c47077bc4909120980d5b71ac35ce6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/a9252f8ce099ceb3bc46689e7f052154.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/6e2f833560b9790a566b25b25d9c603a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/19930ae13a0a49a02c27f4090a9ab8d9.jpg)


The common thread is yeast growth is linearly related to higher alcohol production and inversely related to ester synthesis. Since Oxygen promotes yeast growth, prolonged, excessive, or even moderate oxygenation reduces esters.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 04:22:08 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most literature shows ester formation having an inverse relationship to yeast growth. It’s why overpitching and undercutting Oxygen is an effective way of limiting higher alcohol production and promoting ester formation using Trappist yeast.

Maybe that only works with my beloved 1214, 3787, and 1762 though. YMMV.
Id be interested in seeing that literature. Everything I’ve read plus personal experience points to a direct relationship between yeast growth and esters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few good ones from my stash:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gk0uCJdog0f3WxqMDvxfHt-j1W-NYSI7

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10kXMy5fNjvPVhPyQfN18oSUZswlIiYG-

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pmujev58LUkO1rDbPHEAFp1u6ObvCzGC
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/456510adf247518148c549a30a192934.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/40b96794487b8fb1103d2887212c2d07.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/67c47077bc4909120980d5b71ac35ce6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/a9252f8ce099ceb3bc46689e7f052154.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/6e2f833560b9790a566b25b25d9c603a.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/19930ae13a0a49a02c27f4090a9ab8d9.jpg)


The common thread is yeast growth is linearly related to higher alcohol production and inversely related to ester synthesis. Since Oxygen promotes yeast growth, prolonged, excessive, or even moderate oxygenation reduces ester synthesis.
I believe you’re missing my point. I’m not talking DO (in high gravity worts nonetheless) I’m saying that the access to atmospheric oxygen prolongs the growth phase resulting in increased IsoA.

So you’re saying if I pitch ten smack packs into a 5 gal of wort I’ll have more esters than a half a pack in the same 5 gal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 04:25:48 AM
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 04:32:08 AM
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context. It could very well be that we are both right if the IsoA content is driven by higher alcohols.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 04:42:50 AM
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context.
That could be. My original statement was that the open ferment drove the isoA, and like your data states fusel production and oxygen are directly related, so that has to also play a role in it also. More isoamyl alcohol, higher probability of it combining with acetic acid, which Oxygen can promote as well. That’s what led me to wonder if there is ester synthesis that occurs outside of the cell as a result of oxygenated precursors.

Also I believe don’t quote me on this, but can’t you synthesize IsoA with sulfur? I think that was the catalyst in my hypothesis for extracellular isoA synthesis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 13, 2018, 11:56:29 AM
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context.
That could be. My original statement was that the open ferment drove the isoA, and like your data states fusel production and oxygen are directly related, so that has to also play a role in it also. More isoamyl alcohol, higher probability of it combining with acetic acid, which Oxygen can promote as well. That’s what led me to wonder if there is ester synthesis that occurs outside of the cell as a result of oxygenated precursors.

Also I believe don’t quote me on this, but can’t you synthesize IsoA with sulfur? I think that was the catalyst in my hypothesis for extracellular isoA synthesis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This talks quite extensively about things pretty closely related to what you hypothesize:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703881/pdf/BMRI2013-870802.pdf
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 13, 2018, 12:47:28 PM
Post 57 I did say I have a hypothesis about isoA being synthesized extracellularly. That would rely on higher alcohol production, so that may be some of the driving factor as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair enough. In the beers I brew I’m looking to avoid IsoA so maybe we are talking about similar things in different context.
That could be. My original statement was that the open ferment drove the isoA, and like your data states fusel production and oxygen are directly related, so that has to also play a role in it also. More isoamyl alcohol, higher probability of it combining with acetic acid, which Oxygen can promote as well. That’s what led me to wonder if there is ester synthesis that occurs outside of the cell as a result of oxygenated precursors.

Also I believe don’t quote me on this, but can’t you synthesize IsoA with sulfur? I think that was the catalyst in my hypothesis for extracellular isoA synthesis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This talks quite extensively about things pretty closely related to what you hypothesize:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703881/pdf/BMRI2013-870802.pdf
Great read, thanks for sharing! One thing out of the many that caught my eye was they stated isoA production was greatest at 15c (30 degree rule was my immediate thought), but then the did the trials at 25c.

Yeah that goes into great depth on intracellular synthesis. I guess I’m saying the the open ferm may have some semi-aerobic qualities that lead to an increase in the production of isoA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Wilbur on February 13, 2018, 04:44:11 PM
Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).

I've always wondered about that. It seems like there's always a supposition that yeast instantly grabs up available O2, but I've never heard any hard numbers. Did you take any measurements before two hours by any chance? I suppose it also very dependent on homogeneity of the wort/yeast/oxygen solution. It would probably depend on when during fermentation measurements were made.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: The Beerery on February 13, 2018, 05:58:59 PM
Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).

I've always wondered about that. It seems like there's always a supposition that yeast instantly grabs up available O2, but I've never heard any hard numbers. Did you take any measurements before two hours by any chance? I suppose it also very dependent on homogeneity of the wort/yeast/oxygen solution. It would probably depend on when during fermentation measurements were made.

Injected 8ppm

1hr 2ppm

2hr 0ppm

2.5m pitch rate with healthy active lager yeast at 45f.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: narcout on February 13, 2018, 09:01:42 PM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: narcout on February 13, 2018, 09:12:52 PM
The common thread is yeast growth is linearly related to higher alcohol production and inversely related to ester synthesis. Since Oxygen promotes yeast growth, prolonged, excessive, or even moderate oxygenation reduces esters.

I thought it was a balancing act whereby more yeast growth = less CoA available for ester production but more higher alcohols available for ester production (and vice versa for less yeast growth). 

But maybe CoA availability is always/usually the limiting factor?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on February 13, 2018, 11:16:16 PM
Active yeast will consume all o2 injected within 2 hours of pitching (verified with a DO meter).

I've always wondered about that. It seems like there's always a supposition that yeast instantly grabs up available O2, but I've never heard any hard numbers. Did you take any measurements before two hours by any chance? I suppose it also very dependent on homogeneity of the wort/yeast/oxygen solution. It would probably depend on when during fermentation measurements were made.

Injected 8ppm

1hr 2ppm

2hr 0ppm

2.5m pitch rate with healthy active lager yeast at 45f.
Any data on inactive yeast time, say from a chilled starter decanted and pitched?  Or that mason jar from the previous batch pulled out and pitched? 

  "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 02:03:37 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on February 14, 2018, 02:11:20 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 03:26:59 AM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
I don’t have it on me at the moment, it’s in the Zymurgy medal issue.

Off the top of my head, It’s like:
Fairly soft water with 1g/gal cacl/strike water
50/48/2 wheat/pils/melanoidin
Couple grams of magnum 10 ibus or so.
Wlp380

Mash in at acid rest 10-15
Protein rest 10 or so.
Beta 45 mins or so.
I think I skipped an alpha rest if my memory serves me correctly.

In Zymurgy I called it an open/closed ferment.
pitch at 15c and open ferment at 15c (15+15 comes from the 30 degree rule or whatever they call it.) ferment 72 hours
Transfer to a keg with speise in it, keg condition 72 hrs at like 18c is the closed part
I let it build to a bout 2.8 bar or like 40 psi(whatever the bar equivalent is)
Crash, usually lager for 10-14 days, but for the comp with shipping and stuff I bottle it about 3 days after the crash. Usually for comps my hefe’s smell like malt, wheat, light clove, moderate sulfur, very little isoA. By comp time it seems to be malt and wheat, big banana, no sulfur, same moderate 4vg. That change is why I wonder if Sulfur Dioxide SO2 or sulfites SO3 can catalyze the synthesis isoA outside of the yeast cell. Seems coincidental that sulfur seems decrease, while isoA increases. In lab production they use sulfuric acid (H2SO4) as a catalyst to convert isoamyl alcohol and acetic acid into isoamyl acetate.
Can one of these sulfur derivatives initiate the synthesis isoA?
Is H2O + SO3~>H2SO4 happening and catalyzing isoA synthesis outside of the cell in the wort?

May have to proposition big monk to scour the research for data.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 14, 2018, 12:21:29 PM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
I don’t have it on me at the moment, it’s in the Zymurgy medal issue.

Off the top of my head, It’s like:
Fairly soft water with 1g/gal cacl/strike water
50/48/2 wheat/pils/melanoidin
Couple grams of magnum 10 ibus or so.
Wlp380

Mash in at acid rest 10-15
Protein rest 10 or so.
Beta 45 mins or so.
I think I skipped an alpha rest if my memory serves me correctly.

In Zymurgy I called it an open/closed ferment.
pitch at 15c and open ferment at 15c (15+15 comes from the 30 degree rule or whatever they call it.) ferment 72 hours
Transfer to a keg with speise in it, keg condition 72 hrs at like 18c is the closed part
I let it build to a bout 2.8 bar or like 40 psi(whatever the bar equivalent is)
Crash, usually lager for 10-14 days, but for the comp with shipping and stuff I bottle it about 3 days after the crash. Usually for comps my hefe’s smell like malt, wheat, light clove, moderate sulfur, very little isoA. By comp time it seems to be malt and wheat, big banana, no sulfur, same moderate 4vg. That change is why I wonder if Sulfur Dioxide SO2 or sulfites SO3 can catalyze the synthesis isoA outside of the yeast cell. Seems coincidental that sulfur seems decrease, while isoA increases. In lab production they use sulfuric acid (H2SO4) as a catalyst to convert isoamyl alcohol and acetic acid into isoamyl acetate.
Can one of these sulfur derivatives initiate the synthesis isoA?
Is H2O + SO3~>H2SO4 happening and catalyzing isoA synthesis outside of the cell in the wort?

May have to proposition big monk to scour the research for data.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After reading a bit over some tea this morning, I'm more certain than I was previously that the fermenter geometry theory doesn't really hold weight. There has to be something outside the normal fermentation variables that explains what you are talking about.

I'll scan some references today and report anything of note I find.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: mabrungard on February 14, 2018, 01:36:04 PM
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 02:21:16 PM
Yeast create biomass with the access to oxygen, aerobic fermentation. Anaerobic fermentation produces alcohol and co2.

My understanding is that yeast do not respire in wort, regardless of the presence of oxygen, due to the Crabtree effect. 

I did win the gold medal in weissbier at NHC this year (final round) with a hefe

Nice!  Congratulations.
Thanks, appreciate it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Forgive me if you already did and I lost it somewhere in the last 9 pages but, to bring this back around to where the OP  started:  care to share your gold medal recipe?
I don’t have it on me at the moment, it’s in the Zymurgy medal issue.

Off the top of my head, It’s like:
Fairly soft water with 1g/gal cacl/strike water
50/48/2 wheat/pils/melanoidin
Couple grams of magnum 10 ibus or so.
Wlp380

Mash in at acid rest 10-15
Protein rest 10 or so.
Beta 45 mins or so.
I think I skipped an alpha rest if my memory serves me correctly.

In Zymurgy I called it an open/closed ferment.
pitch at 15c and open ferment at 15c (15+15 comes from the 30 degree rule or whatever they call it.) ferment 72 hours
Transfer to a keg with speise in it, keg condition 72 hrs at like 18c is the closed part
I let it build to a bout 2.8 bar or like 40 psi(whatever the bar equivalent is)
Crash, usually lager for 10-14 days, but for the comp with shipping and stuff I bottle it about 3 days after the crash. Usually for comps my hefe’s smell like malt, wheat, light clove, moderate sulfur, very little isoA. By comp time it seems to be malt and wheat, big banana, no sulfur, same moderate 4vg. That change is why I wonder if Sulfur Dioxide SO2 or sulfites SO3 can catalyze the synthesis isoA outside of the yeast cell. Seems coincidental that sulfur seems decrease, while isoA increases. In lab production they use sulfuric acid (H2SO4) as a catalyst to convert isoamyl alcohol and acetic acid into isoamyl acetate.
Can one of these sulfur derivatives initiate the synthesis isoA?
Is H2O + SO3~>H2SO4 happening and catalyzing isoA synthesis outside of the cell in the wort?

May have to proposition big monk to scour the research for data.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

After reading a bit over some tea this morning, I'm more certain than I was previously that the fermenter geometry theory doesn't really hold weight. There has to be something outside the normal fermentation variables that explains what you are talking about.

I'll scan some references today and report anything of note I find.
1. What fermenter geometry theory are you talking about?

2. How can you be so certain as to whatever #1 is, is invalid?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 02:37:39 PM
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.

Lactate can also be synthesized by the yeast into the ester, ethyl lactate. Phosphoric acid always makes wonder if I’m creating more calcium phosphate precipitate than anything.

Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: mabrungard on February 14, 2018, 02:46:55 PM
Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

Agreed! I found that out the hard way over a decade ago, but it bears repeating to all competitive brewers and beer afficionados. Unless your entering a style that requires significant lagering or maturation time, a fresh beer is more likely to do better in the drinker's glass.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 14, 2018, 02:52:28 PM
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.

Lactate can also be synthesized by the yeast into the ester, ethyl lactate. Phosphoric acid always makes wonder if I’m creating more calcium phosphate precipitate than anything.

Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Granted, my main area of interest is in Trappist yeasts. Your discussion of technique with Hefe presents a different set of circumstances. It isn't terribly difficult to grasp once you think about it: Use a yeast which is a known sulfur producer and see how banana develops after packaging with dissipation of the sulfur. That, IMHO, is the smoking gun in your case.

It could be that my assumptions and interpretations on the oxygen content driving yeast growth and reducing esters is true and pertinent for the types of beers I brew. I don't want to generalize your experiences and points  and say they are wrong outright, but it could be that the pathway to banana for you exists outside of these generally accepted ester synthesis pathways, and that your theory that open fermentation is a contributor is overshadowed by the transformation at the packaging stage.

Whatever the reality is, it doesn't change that you made an award winning beer. It is just interesting to me to try and understand why you did.
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Stevie on February 14, 2018, 03:42:40 PM
Wow!  Lots of hostility about a recipe.  For what it’s worth, I still plan on brewing the recipe as shown in this post. 

Also, for what it’s worth, I asked Martin many months ago if he would be interested in simply removing the color background from just the Instructions section of his spreadsheet so a person could print, and read, the instructions while learning and working the spreadsheet.  This would enable a nice clean printout without using tons of color ink.  Well, he never replied and has since sent out two upgrades, none of which included the instructions suitable for printing.  So, Point is, while I respect Martins work and his authority on the subject of Water, as a person interested in assisting fellow brewers, he leaves a great deal to be desired - at least in my eyes.  I too found his comments to be condescending and rude.

Regardless of what your authority or level of expertise, you should always treat others with the same respect you wish to be treated yourself.

Sorry for the rant.
Damn bro. He’s a water expert that created a killer spreadsheet that he offers for free or enhanced with no set price. He ain’t Microsoft.

Option 1 - Page setup -> sheet -> check black and white.
Option 2 - Use the new window and arrange features to view both the instructions and the other sheet at the same time
Option 3 - Open a second copy of the workbook and arrange side by side
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: mabrungard on February 14, 2018, 08:02:18 PM
You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Derek,

I'm sure you've seen photos of the open fermenters in some German Hefe breweries. I've got to believe that the weizen yeast has some sort of affinity to some slight oxygenation. Even under a big krausen, I've got to assume that some oxygen gets into the wort. While I'm not sure how effective the loose foil cover is for Rob, with respect to enabling oxygen ingress to the fermenter, I suppose there is some.

Isn't it possible that those scientific literature are presenting results that are non-weizen related and there could be some truth in the benefit of micro-oxygenation in this case?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 14, 2018, 08:25:51 PM
You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Derek,

I'm sure you've seen photos of the open fermenters in some German Hefe breweries. I've got to believe that the weizen yeast has some sort of affinity to some slight oxygenation. Even under a big krausen, I've got to assume that some oxygen gets into the wort. While I'm not sure how effective the loose foil cover is for Rob, with respect to enabling oxygen ingress to the fermenter, I suppose there is some.

Isn't it possible that those scientific literature are presenting results that are non-weizen related and there could be some truth in the benefit of micro-oxygenation in this case?

Certainly! I even stated that right after the above quoted comment:

Granted, my main area of interest is in Trappist yeasts. Your discussion of technique with Hefe presents a different set of circumstances. It isn't terribly difficult to grasp once you think about it: Use a yeast which is a known sulfur producer and see how banana develops after packaging with dissipation of the sulfur. That, IMHO, is the smoking gun in your case.

It could be that my assumptions and interpretations on the oxygen content driving yeast growth and reducing esters is true and pertinent for the types of beers I brew. I don't want to generalize your experiences and points  and say they are wrong outright, but it could be that the pathway to banana for you exists outside of these generally accepted ester synthesis pathways, and that your theory that open fermentation is a contributor is overshadowed by the transformation at the packaging stage.

You have to temper my comments with the fact that in the beers I love (Trappist), I'm looking to minimize banana. If the IsoA content in Hefe is driven by synthesis of higher alcohols during fermentation than I am in no way shape or form arguing the open fermentation concept.

I think we were just communally sussing out whether the role of yeast derived sulfites once packaged may contribute as well, which seems to line up with hackrsackr's brewery data.



Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: erockrph on February 14, 2018, 08:30:12 PM
Regarding open fermentation, I was under the impression that it was more a factor of allowing the CO2 to offgas freely rather than access to O2. I'm sorry that I don't have any primary literature to quote here, but I swear I've heard on more than one occasion that CO2 concentration can alter yeast metabolism.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on February 14, 2018, 08:31:13 PM
Regarding open fermentation, I was under the impression that it was more a factor of allowing the CO2 to offgas freely rather than access to O2. I'm sorry that I don't have any primary literature to quote here, but I swear I've heard on more than one occasion that CO2 concentration can alter yeast metabolism.

CO2 pressure will affect ester content.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 10:19:50 PM
Rob, that's a typical recipe, but I see that you do interesting enhancements in brewing. Reviewing Zymurgy, I see that your recollection was good. Only the acid malt addition was omitted. That provides a dose of lactate that I feel is an enhancement in that style. Lactate is metabolized by yeast and I'm guessing that it has a hand in the overall gold-medal effects.

One question: Did you rebrew for the second round? I didn't and my beer was nothing like it was in the first round. Freshness seems to be a needed hallmark of this style.

Lactate can also be synthesized by the yeast into the ester, ethyl lactate. Phosphoric acid always makes wonder if I’m creating more calcium phosphate precipitate than anything.

Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Granted, my main area of interest is in Trappist yeasts. Your discussion of technique with Hefe presents a different set of circumstances. It isn't terribly difficult to grasp once you think about it: Use a yeast which is a known sulfur producer and see how banana develops after packaging with dissipation of the sulfur. That, IMHO, is the smoking gun in your case.

It could be that my assumptions and interpretations on the oxygen content driving yeast growth and reducing esters is true and pertinent for the types of beers I brew. I don't want to generalize your experiences and points  and say they are wrong outright, but it could be that the pathway to banana for you exists outside of these generally accepted ester synthesis pathways, and that your theory that open fermentation is a contributor is overshadowed by the transformation at the packaging stage.

Whatever the reality is, it doesn't change that you made an award winning beer. It is just interesting to me to try and understand why you did.
Hefe yeast produce sulfur, a lot of it. Not sure what you’re getting at there.

In the nih piece you posted it showed semi aerobic producing more isoA than aerobic or anaerobic.

As I do advocate open fermentation (it is how Weissbier was traditionally made, Germans, I didn’t make this up...,) I’ve never mentioned fermenter depth as a factor (I think the bottom of the fermenter’s slope angle is a factor, but haven’t mentioned it.) Open fermentation has nothing to do fermenter height. If I said something about fermenter geometry please quote and repost, so I can qualify what I meant.

I’ve compared actual beers, not just thought experiments. Hypotheses need tested before disqualification. If you try it and get different results then there’s data to analyze and discussions to have. Tea leaves, lucid dreams, or whatever else are never a valid reason for disqualifying a premise.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 10:21:59 PM
Rebrew: absolutely. I doubt you (anyone not you personally) can medal with a hefe from the first round. For a hefe I usually brew it 2 weeks before the last day of drop off. That usually puts the beer on the judges table in pretty good condition. I rebrewed all 4 that advanced last year.

Agreed! I found that out the hard way over a decade ago, but it bears repeating to all competitive brewers and beer afficionados. Unless your entering a style that requires significant lagering or maturation time, a fresh beer is more likely to do better in the drinker's glass.

Absolutely.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on February 14, 2018, 10:35:06 PM
You had stated previously that you thought the open fermentation was a contributor (i.e. shallow geometry, exposure to oxygen, etc.). Most of the scientific literature states otherwise, i.e. increase in oxygen leads to ester reduction.

Derek,

I'm sure you've seen photos of the open fermenters in some German Hefe breweries. I've got to believe that the weizen yeast has some sort of affinity to some slight oxygenation. Even under a big krausen, I've got to assume that some oxygen gets into the wort. While I'm not sure how effective the loose foil cover is for Rob, with respect to enabling oxygen ingress to the fermenter, I suppose there is some.

Isn't it possible that those scientific literature are presenting results that are non-weizen related and there could be some truth in the benefit of micro-oxygenation in this case?
Another factor I should highlight about the foil over the mouth thing is that I usually ferment around 4 gallons of hefe in a 6 gallon better bottle, so there is a significant amount of head space. More volume for gas mixing, plus it provides plenty of space for krausen.

I have brew buckets now(what has led to my thoughts on fermenter slope angle having an effect), and I just leave the lid completely off. If that worries folks, you can put the lid on and leave the airlock out, put a piece of foil over the hole.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on February 15, 2018, 06:08:42 PM
wow, I haven't checked this in a few days (busy with my engineering classes).  If nothing else, I suppose I've started a great conversation.  I hope you guys make this and give feedback.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: thcipriani on March 08, 2018, 04:22:01 AM
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.
(heavily out of context quote. In my defense: there was soooo much context)

So there are a bunch, I'm mostly quoting myself from another thread on here:

Quote
While many authors tend to agree that increased biomass production (i.e. creation of cell walls) reduces the Acetyl CoA that is available for ester production and leads to reduced ester levels in the beer (Narziss 2005, Cone, Noonan 1996, Fix 1999) authors differ with respect to ester production and yeast growth. Fix (Fix 1999) writes that any, "increased activity on the acetyl CoA branch", whatever that means, will increase ester production while other authors (Narziss 2005, Cone) state that increased yeast growth leads to a decrease in esters since more of the acetyl CoA is used for sterol synthesis.

Sources:
--------
Cone - http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/yeast-growth
Fix - George J. Fix Ph.D, Principles of Brewing Science, Brewers Publications, Boulder CO, 1999
Narziss - Prof. Dr. agr. Ludwig Narziss, Prof. Dr.-Ing. habil. Werner Back, Technische Universitaet Muenchen (Fakultaet fuer Brauwesen, Weihenstephan), Abriss der Bierbrauerei. WILEY-VCH Verlags GmbH Weinheim Germany, 2005
Noonan - Gregory J. Noonan, New Brewing Lager Beer, Brewers Publications, Boulder CO, 1996

HOWEVER, I wrote ^ because I was puzzled about seeing the exact opposite results in practice, that is, esters and growth seem to vary directly to me in *acutal* brewing. I was writing the above to Jess Caudill (who was at Wyeast at the time). My findings definitely jived with his and what you're seeing in practice hackrsackr. (link to thread: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.msg162616#msg162616)

To paraphrase Jess (and maybe Yogi Berra): In theory practice and theory are the same, but in practice they're not.
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on March 08, 2018, 12:25:34 PM
How bout some quotes out of it saying growth and esters are inversely related.
(heavily out of context quote. In my defense: there was soooo much context)

So there are a bunch, I'm mostly quoting myself from another thread on here:

Quote
While many authors tend to agree that increased biomass production (i.e. creation of cell walls) reduces the Acetyl CoA that is available for ester production and leads to reduced ester levels in the beer (Narziss 2005, Cone, Noonan 1996, Fix 1999) authors differ with respect to ester production and yeast growth. Fix (Fix 1999) writes that any, "increased activity on the acetyl CoA branch", whatever that means, will increase ester production while other authors (Narziss 2005, Cone) state that increased yeast growth leads to a decrease in esters since more of the acetyl CoA is used for sterol synthesis.

Sources:
--------
Cone - http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/yeast-growth
Fix - George J. Fix Ph.D, Principles of Brewing Science, Brewers Publications, Boulder CO, 1999
Narziss - Prof. Dr. agr. Ludwig Narziss, Prof. Dr.-Ing. habil. Werner Back, Technische Universitaet Muenchen (Fakultaet fuer Brauwesen, Weihenstephan), Abriss der Bierbrauerei. WILEY-VCH Verlags GmbH Weinheim Germany, 2005
Noonan - Gregory J. Noonan, New Brewing Lager Beer, Brewers Publications, Boulder CO, 1996

HOWEVER, I wrote ^ because I was puzzled about seeing the exact opposite results in practice, that is, esters and growth seem to vary directly to me in *acutal* brewing. I was writing the above to Jess Caudill (who was at Wyeast at the time). My findings definitely jived with his and what you're seeing in practice hackrsackr. (link to thread: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12789.msg162616#msg162616)

To paraphrase Jess (and maybe Yogi Berra): In theory practice and theory are the same, but in practice they're not.
Good info, and love that quote.

I personally think that metabolic ester synthesis is far too complex to say: change this parameter and this result will occur. I also believe that “ester formation” is too broad of a topic. These are specific chemicals created by the combination of an organic acid and an alcohol. I feel that ester discussions should be limited to the specific ester, and the application (beer style and specific yeast strain) that it is to be measured in. In this thread I’ve only been describing isoamyl acetate in Weissbiers.

Furthermore, the ending isoA level has many more factors than pitch rate and the overall level produced is an amalgamation all of those factors. Off the top of my head there is: yeast strain, yeast health,  starting gravity, fermentation temperature, sugar profile, alcohol profile produced, head pressure on fermenter and fermenter size and shape. Too often I think we forget that yeast are governed by their DNA to react to their environment. The environment we provide doesn’t govern their DNA. By that I mean some strains produce more IsoA than others. If you look at a yeast analysis you can clearly see that some strains are isoamyl all-stars, and others aren’t even in the league. So if you’re trying to increase your isoA level, first check your strains isoA production in the lab vs. alternative strains recommended for that style. If you have a strain that is a low producer overall, then increasing the level will be more difficult compared to a high producing strain (check out the crazy amount altbier yeast produce).

Beer is made in kettles and fermenters, not in computer models or spreadsheets. Just like weather is made in the atmosphere and not in the models that fail to predict it (my local forecast for yesterday was 12-18” snow, 12 hours before we got a little drizzling rain... stuff is complex, I’m not mad at em).

Recently the guys from imperial yeast were on the brulosophy podcast, and they stated that with their strain (300/3068 strain I think, it is called stephan...) that they’ve measured isoA production of the yeast at different pitch rates and that their strain produces far more at a modest underpitch than any other pitch rate.

 https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-br%C3%BClosophy-podcast/id1207681531?mt=2&i=1000402116718https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-br%C3%BClosophy-podcast/id1207681531?mt=2&i=1000402116718 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-br%C3%BClosophy-podcast/id1207681531?mt=2&i=1000402116718https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-br%C3%BClosophy-podcast/id1207681531?mt=2&i=1000402116718)

Sorry, I don’t have a time stamp for the comment, but start in the second half if you’re looking for it specifically.

And finally, one factor that may muddy the science vs reality is the effect that pitch rate has on the length of the lag and log phases. Under pitching may simply lengthen these periods slightly, keeping the yeast in ester mode longer, thus resulting in more esters.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: coolman26 on March 08, 2018, 02:16:33 PM
One of the best reads in a long time. I appreciate a thread that stays, for the most part, civil and informative. This stuff is past my level, but what a learning experience. I’m not sure I’ve ever purchased a Hefe/Weis.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: thcipriani on March 08, 2018, 03:57:35 PM
Beer is made in kettles and fermenters, not in computer models or spreadsheets. Just like weather is made in the atmosphere and not in the models that fail to predict it (my local forecast for yesterday was 12-18” snow, 12 hours before we got a little drizzling rain... stuff is complex, I’m not mad at em).

So what I'm hearing is: "supercomputer"

And finally, one factor that may muddy the science vs reality is the effect that pitch rate has on the length of the lag and log phases. Under pitching may simply lengthen these periods slightly, keeping the yeast in ester mode longer, thus resulting in more esters.

You also posted earlier about keeping yeast in log phase, but earlier referring to availability of O2:

Hmm... may want to revisit that hypothesis. Esters come from growth. The access to oxygen keeps a small pitch of yeast in the growth phase longer.

This gives me a bunch of questions that I didn't see the answers to in this thread or in Zymurgy:

Do you have a target pitch rate, or some proxy which approximates a target pitch rate (e.g., fresh vial in 1 qt starter at ~1.040)?
Do you add oxygen or air initially? Is there a target initial DO rate? Is there a nominal rate and then you count on availability of oxygen in headspace? Do you feel strongly about these things, or do you only feel strongly that it is the entire process that makes the difference (as seems to be what you're saying in the last post)?

I've been working on my hefe for years and I still fiddle with pitching rate and oxygen more than I fiddle with anything else, really. My experience has been: that's how I make wildly different beers from the same ingredients. I pitch low (~6E6/mL), and I do 90 seconds O2 at 1LPM. I used to do a mix-stir for O2 since some smart folks I respect pointed to low DO driving esters, but that hasn't worked for me.

Also, while I directed this a bit to hacksackr if anyone else has experience playing with any of these variables I'd love to hear about it.

Random aside:

I love this thread! I feel like a lot of dogma leaks into brewing which may help new folks climb the learning-curve faster initially, but I think it does a disservice to our shared community understanding. There's a lot of great brewing literature that amalgamates knowledge from thousands of years of trial and error. And there are so many paths to amazing beer that on paper don't seem like they'll ever work. The more I've tried those weird paths, the more I realize that I have no idea what's going to make a good beer, but I can try it and see if it works for me.

Great thread, thanks for still being passionate about this stuff folks <3
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on March 08, 2018, 08:59:03 PM
Beer is made in kettles and fermenters, not in computer models or spreadsheets. Just like weather is made in the atmosphere and not in the models that fail to predict it (my local forecast for yesterday was 12-18” snow, 12 hours before we got a little drizzling rain... stuff is complex, I’m not mad at em).

So what I'm hearing is: "supercomputer"

And finally, one factor that may muddy the science vs reality is the effect that pitch rate has on the length of the lag and log phases. Under pitching may simply lengthen these periods slightly, keeping the yeast in ester mode longer, thus resulting in more esters.

You also posted earlier about keeping yeast in log phase, but earlier referring to availability of O2:

Hmm... may want to revisit that hypothesis. Esters come from growth. The access to oxygen keeps a small pitch of yeast in the growth phase longer.

This gives me a bunch of questions that I didn't see the answers to in this thread or in Zymurgy:

Do you have a target pitch rate, or some proxy which approximates a target pitch rate (e.g., fresh vial in 1 qt starter at ~1.040)?
Do you add oxygen or air initially? Is there a target initial DO rate? Is there a nominal rate and then you count on availability of oxygen in headspace? Do you feel strongly about these things, or do you only feel strongly that it is the entire process that makes the difference (as seems to be what you're saying in the last post)?

I've been working on my hefe for years and I still fiddle with pitching rate and oxygen more than I fiddle with anything else, really. My experience has been: that's how I make wildly different beers from the same ingredients. I pitch low (~6E6/mL), and I do 90 seconds O2 at 1LPM. I used to do a mix-stir for O2 since some smart folks I respect pointed to low DO driving esters, but that hasn't worked for me.

Also, while I directed this a bit to hacksackr if anyone else has experience playing with any of these variables I'd love to hear about it.

Random aside:

I love this thread! I feel like a lot of dogma leaks into brewing which may help new folks climb the learning-curve faster initially, but I think it does a disservice to our shared community understanding. There's a lot of great brewing literature that amalgamates knowledge from thousands of years of trial and error. And there are so many paths to amazing beer that on paper don't seem like they'll ever work. The more I've tried those weird paths, the more I realize that I have no idea what's going to make a good beer, but I can try it and see if it works for me.

Great thread, thanks for still being passionate about this stuff folks <3
I guarantee I’m going to miss one or more of those questions, I’ll do my best though. And I don’t think I caught which yeast you were using 300/3068 is moderate in banana imo, unless you go up to like 13-14 Plato.

My basic hefe yeast review

300/3068: balanced banana clove
380/3333: big banana, moderate clove
351/3???: huge clove, minimal banana

My advice is to use the one more suited your desired profile and tweak from there; not try to get a yeast to do something it’s not the best at, if that makes sense. Or blend yeasts...

Yeast and oxygen: ok this is a bit of a black box. I aim for 7M/ml in around 4.5 gallons (2 quarts of wort reserved for speise)of wort. 120B cells-ish total. I don’t count yeast every time I brew, I’ve kinda fallen in the habit just using one tube (flex pouch or whatever) of WLP380 if it’s within one month of production I just pitch that which closer to 6M/ml. If the yeast is older (or summer shipped) I do a 1l starter and one pack which should be close to 7M/ml. I don’t oxygenate a hefe directly. I pitch the yeast into the fermenter and drop the wort in on top from the top of the fermenter. DO ends up around 7ppm generally. I feel like the pure O2 makes the yeast character muted for some reason. Probably the higher DO level worts produce less higher alcohols isoamyl in particular, just a guess though.

Maybe my opinion on yeast growth and ester production is somewhat simplistic, but yeast have to reach a critical mass of cells in the growth phase. So if you pitch that critical mass directly, then they’ll skip the growth phase, and start making alcohol. If you pitch a normal pitch rate they grow X amount of cells. If you underpitch the number of new cells needed is greater than X. Now higher DO levels seem (to me) to make them reproduce cleaner, probably as a result of increased sterols. Limited DO and an underpitch seems to produce a dirtier growth phase if you will. Like there’s yeast afterbirth laying all over the place. Now the open fermentation O2 thing is somewhat different. I’m not positive what the actual mechanism is. Someone suggested it’s due to the CO2 coming out of solution quicker. I just know that if I put an airlock on my hefe  isoA seems noticeably lower than when I leave it open. That nih article big monk posted had test results showing higher levels of IsoA in semi-aerobic fermentation, but I don’t remember reading a definite cause for it. But to be clear I’m not counting on atmospheric O2 to dissolve into solution at all. Once the foam starts coming up there’s no O2 getting past it into solution, but the yeast in top are exposed to atmospheric oxygen at some level.

All that being said I don’t think isoA production is even that simple. I feel pretty strongly (without any non-anecdotal evidence) that there is more to it than just the intercellular pathway of yeast. I think it there is some creation after the active fermentation. That just comes from tasting the beer. When it’s finished I don’t smell or taste a bunch of banana, but usually taste sulfur, a week later less sulfur, some IsoA, two weeks later no sulfur lots of IsoA. Is that causality, absolutely not, but if you google IsoA synthesis, labs use sulfuric acid to catalyze the reaction from isoamyl acetate and acetic acid. Just a theory of mine, that I’d like to have disproven.

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JJeffers09 on March 08, 2018, 09:13:59 PM
This has gotten away from its purpose of brewing a traditional weissbier, imho

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on March 08, 2018, 10:15:01 PM
Poor OP hasn't even been on the forum in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: hackrsackr on March 08, 2018, 11:10:41 PM
This has gotten away from its purpose of brewing a traditional weissbier, imho

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Maybe so...

We could talk about how traditional weissbier brewers avoid oxygen uptake in the mash to prevent the oxidation of sulfhydryl proteins, and the effect that might have on flavor.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: thcipriani on March 08, 2018, 11:29:03 PM
This has gotten away from its purpose of brewing a traditional weissbier, imho

Mea culpa. Sorry for threadjacking.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Big Monk on March 09, 2018, 01:21:12 PM
This has gotten away from its purpose of brewing a traditional weissbier, imho

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Does it matter? I’d say the resulting discussion is infinitely more engaging.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Robert on March 09, 2018, 03:11:22 PM
This has gotten away from its purpose of brewing a traditional weissbier, imho

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Does it matter? I’d say the resulting discussion is infinitely more engaging.
That may be true.  But this started with the OP proudly sharing a simple recipe he'd worked long and hard to develop, and before long it was almost as if he got jumped on and told he was washing his socks wrong if it didn't involve use of the Large Hadron Collider. Not quite but it probably seemed that way to him.  Maybe we should be a little more alert and when a derailment or side topic is far enough removed from the original,  move it to a new thread.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: thcipriani on March 09, 2018, 03:54:30 PM
FWIW, and this is from what I feel is mostly a community outsider perspective as I haven't been active on this forum in quite a while: this thread took a necessary early detour to address remarks that were not intended to malicious, but could have have easily been perceived as such.

The thread, likely, should have ended after that was addressed. As moderators (seemingly since this forums inception) have taken a very light touch it was up to participants who were at the point in a somewhat heated state to end the thread and move discussion elsewhere, but that didn't happen.

At this point it seemed to me when I posted my questions, there would be too much lost context to switch to a new thread.

I will second Big Monk's statement that this thread is a good read.

I'd like to propose that *this* discussion be moved to https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31324.0 so that we don't end up creating context that will be lost in an un-searchable topic.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on June 10, 2018, 12:55:39 AM


So to get the discussion back on track, I pride myself on my weissbier and it’s just like sitting in Munich in a Biergarten.
Did you have a goal for a commercial example? 
My favorite is W.  Hefe. 
What every one fails to realize is that weiss production is as precise as lager production. It's yeast dominated so people think they are easy to do because of all the phenolics of the yeast, but it's couldn't be more wrong. There are so many nuances to these beers.. Yeasty, phenolic, clove, banana, dough, lingering malt, sauergut, etc.  It's these same reasons why I feel every american version sucks and pales in comparison. You can't go off bottles either cause, because they are oxidized, and some of the flavors that come though are oxidized flavors, namely honey.

So what would I do if I was trying to reproduce W hefeweiss bier here at home??

Step 1 Low oxygen brewhouse.

60% Weyermann Wheat malz
35% Weyermann Barke Pils
5% Weyermann carahell

Step mash (non decoction on our scale due to oxidation).
30 minute rest at 114 (to enhance esters and clove)
then step up though beta
147 for 30-40
163 for 30
170-10

Do not adjust pH at all let it ride.
Soft water, I like 40ish ppm ca, 70cl, 20na.

Pristine wort preboil, soft boil 60minutes
a 60min addition of hallertau mittlefuh, to about 12-14ibu
Drop post boil pH to 5.1 with a dose of sauergut
hot and cold break separation
5ppm 02, 1 smack pack per 5g of 3068
Ferment at 68F (to enhance banana)
Spund or Krausen to 4 vols.

That will do you good. At least thats how I would (do) do it. 

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180213/13f10c78540bdc41cdb4cfbfdceeacb4.jpg)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Giving this a whirl tomorrow as I have yet to make one I'm really stoked about.  Oxygen aside, does it matter how the temp is bumped from 114 to 147?  I usually do no sparge on a RIMS and could bump through temp.  I could do a second infusion too.  The only reason I ask is I'm guessing there would be a pH difference between the two, at least initially. 
With fermentation, are you starting low and rising to 68° or heading straight there and holding?
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on June 11, 2018, 02:00:04 AM
I ran the 114 rest, then raised temp through recirculation.  I pitched at 60, but bumped it to 62. Yeast is a kind of dated (April) pack of WLP300, no starter.  I'm open fermenting, and don't have the fridge set to cycle on until 68 - nervous about that - I don't usually give yeast that much free range.
Title: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: BrewBama on June 11, 2018, 10:45:45 AM
Did you run the temp steps via RIMS?  I am interested to know how wheat does in the RIMS. I’ve heard horror stories. In all barley, I just keep the flow going but I’ve read Wheat wants to gum up the works.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JJeffers09 on June 11, 2018, 11:20:06 AM
Hey JT.  Hope all is well with your weissbier.  As a very big fan of the style and it has been my go to brew.  I'm in the ballpark of 90 brewdays of this style alone in the last 3 1/2 years, you could say I'm a little obsessed with the style.  One of the bits of advice I would like to give you making a great starter.  Happy accidents are difficult to repeat.  One of those happy accidents can be from your pitchrate.  Now I'm not talking about just your German wheat beer, obviously you know that's any beer you make.  Taking a dated pack of yeast is really hard to gauge or guess the health of your yeast that way.  Hefe being yeast, this beer all about enjoying a young fresh beer that needs healthy yeast.  It's the brewers choice to decide how much yeast for an estimated hundred billion cells or M/mL/°P.

My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches.  It's all trial and error with proper temperature control in your mash schedule and fermentation control to find the balance in esters/phenols.  As discussed thus far in the thread.  Developing the precursors to get the right phenolic character in the acid rest and continuing into the step or infusion mashing is obviously brewers choice.  I hope the info was helpful as it is all a take it or leave it situation! Happy Brewing!

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on June 11, 2018, 10:16:05 PM
Did you run the temp steps via RIMS?  I am interested to know how wheat does in the RIMS. I’ve heard horror stories. In all barley, I just keep the flow going but I’ve read Wheat wants to gum up the works.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I did.  No problems at all.  I may or may not have needed it, but a few handfuls of rice hulls were added to the grain bill.  I also went no sparge as usual, so the mash was thin.   
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on June 11, 2018, 10:25:38 PM
Hey JT.  Hope all is well with your weissbier.  As a very big fan of the style and it has been my go to brew.  I'm in the ballpark of 90 brewdays of this style alone in the last 3 1/2 years, you could say I'm a little obsessed with the style.  One of the bits of advice I would like to give you making a great starter.  Happy accidents are difficult to repeat.  One of those happy accidents can be from your pitchrate.  Now I'm not talking about just your German wheat beer, obviously you know that's any beer you make.  Taking a dated pack of yeast is really hard to gauge or guess the health of your yeast that way.  Hefe being yeast, this beer all about enjoying a young fresh beer that needs healthy yeast.  It's the brewers choice to decide how much yeast for an estimated hundred billion cells or M/mL/°P.

My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches.  It's all trial and error with proper temperature control in your mash schedule and fermentation control to find the balance in esters/phenols.  As discussed thus far in the thread.  Developing the precursors to get the right phenolic character in the acid rest and continuing into the step or infusion mashing is obviously brewers choice.  I hope the info was helpful as it is all a take it or leave it situation! Happy Brewing!

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Interesting!  I deliberately underpitched this time hoping to coax more out of the yeast.  IIRC I pitched a larger starter last time I brewed one, and the character of the beer was just lacking.  I only brew the style about once a year.  Nothing to do now but take notes and correct for the next brew.  At least I'll have a potential COE for the next one, should it prove problematic.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on June 11, 2018, 11:48:47 PM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JJeffers09 on June 11, 2018, 11:55:28 PM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: JT on June 12, 2018, 01:10:44 AM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Cool, I have no liquid in the airlock. It is just covered with foil. 
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: BrewBama on June 12, 2018, 01:51:56 AM
Did you run the temp steps via RIMS?  I am interested to know how wheat does in the RIMS. I’ve heard horror stories. In all barley, I just keep the flow going but I’ve read Wheat wants to gum up the works.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I did.  No problems at all.  I may or may not have needed it, but a few handfuls of rice hulls were added to the grain bill.  I also went no sparge as usual, so the mash was thin.

Cool. I’ve been doing full vol no sparge mash since I got the RIMS so I should be all set.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
Post by: Brewtopalonian on June 12, 2018, 04:25:44 PM
Hello All!

I hope this finds everyone in good spirits. 

There comes a time in everyone's life (sometimes many times) when they need to eat a little crow.  This is one of those times for me.  I started this post as a boisterous assumption of my success.  I don't think I truly understood what it was to be an AHA member and part of a learning community.  I instead treated this forum as a place I could boast about minor level of success I've had in homebrewing.  I feel the need to correct myself and eat some crow.

First off, I must extend some apologies to those I may have offended and or outright disregarded. Martin, for one, is one of the most intelligent men I've had the pleasure of reading about regarding brewing water.  His reputation was unknown to me until I did some continued research.  This community, being graced by his presence, is truly better off with him.  I hope he accepts my most sincere apology for my unwarranted aggression and child-like behavior when he was offering his cherished and useful advice.  I would also like to apologize to TheBeerery (of whom I do not know his real name), for the same reasons I apologized to Martin.  I made a critical error in believing I knew everything there was to know about a style many others are far more experts in than myself.  I hope both gentlemen know that I wish to eat my words and hope to remain a member of this community so that I may become further educated.

Addressing the progress of this particular thread, I am amazed at how much attention this got.  While I should have expected as much with such a bold statement as a title, I never thought I'd get so many excellent and intelligent conversations out of this.  It is because of Martin's comment about not leading someone astray with the title of this thread that I'd like to modify the title to something more fitting.  I will be renaming this thread "Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe".  I feel that with the direction this thread has taken, that is a more appropriate name.  I certainly didn't have the ultimate traditional weizen recipe, and I certainly didn't figure it out.  Though, through your combined efforts, we are certainly closer as a community to coming up with great weizen recipes!  It is due to that and the nature of this forum that I am happy to admit I am not the end all be all of weizens, not even by a long shot. 

I will be updating the OP with the name change, a more appropriate water profile (as suggested by Martin), and a brief paragraph explaining such changes.  I am happy to be a part of this community and hope to meet you all in person and discuss this very topic over some very nice weizens  ;D .  Thank you all for everything you've contributed to this post and I hope everyone has learned something from it, I know I certainly have!

Very Respectfully,

Jared
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: mabrungard on June 12, 2018, 08:24:57 PM
Wow, Thank you! But I thought your previous admissions were already magnanimous and the case was closed.

There are more ways to achieve similar results in the world of brewing. I wasn't saying that you were wrong, only that I hadn't done it that way. Keep striving for your definition of perfection, regardless of what others say. (of course we all have to recognize that we will still be criticized or extolled based on everyone else's perception).
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: Brewtopalonian on June 12, 2018, 08:45:50 PM
Wow, Thank you! But I thought your previous admissions were already magnanimous and the case was closed.

There are more ways to achieve similar results in the world of brewing. I wasn't saying that you were wrong, only that I hadn't done it that way. Keep striving for your definition of perfection, regardless of what others say. (of course we all have to recognize that we will still be criticized or extolled based on everyone else's perception).
I made admissions, but never said the words of apology.  Guilt can be a powerful motivator. 

I am extremely happy with the direction this thread has gone and continues to go. I hope it is a home for great education on such a complex and wonderful style.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: BrewBama on June 12, 2018, 10:12:47 PM
Well done sir. It’s not how bad you mess up (we all do that), it’s how well you recover. You recovered well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: JT on June 12, 2018, 10:47:55 PM
This is one of those gem threads that just takes off and takes on its own life - remember "Right RPM for stir plate?"
I actually had no intention of brewing a Weissbier this month but had to give it a go because of this thread.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: dannyjed on June 13, 2018, 01:02:14 AM
In my book, it takes a big person to admit that they’re wrong. This attitude makes this forum a better place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: macbrews on June 13, 2018, 04:51:07 PM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Cool, I have no liquid in the airlock. It is just covered with foil.
I’ve seen a lot of people talk about making an open fermenter by replacing the airlock with foil. I find it hard to believe that the pressure of the airlock makes any significant difference in the pressure at the surface of the beer especially considering the hydrostatic pressure of the beer in the fermenter. Does it really make a difference?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: JT on June 13, 2018, 05:09:36 PM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Cool, I have no liquid in the airlock. It is just covered with foil.
I’ve seen a lot of people talk about making an open fermenter by replacing the airlock with foil. I find it hard to believe that the pressure of the airlock makes any significant difference in the pressure at the surface of the beer especially considering the hydrostatic pressure of the beer in the fermenter. Does it really make a difference?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought the same thing, but noticed a difference with certain Belgian strains in avoiding the "stall."  This is the first time I've tried it with a weissbier yeast. 
I believe the IGORs from Experimental Brewing ran a test on this. 
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: The Beerery on June 14, 2018, 01:22:49 PM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Cool, I have no liquid in the airlock. It is just covered with foil.
I’ve seen a lot of people talk about making an open fermenter by replacing the airlock with foil. I find it hard to believe that the pressure of the airlock makes any significant difference in the pressure at the surface of the beer especially considering the hydrostatic pressure of the beer in the fermenter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

110% correct.

The reason for the stall is that most of the yeast is trapped in the krausen and not in the wort in the height of fermentation. The krausen will start to then fall and yeast will mix back with the wort. Bubbling an airlock is absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: JJeffers09 on June 14, 2018, 02:17:31 PM



My target pitchrate is ~0.8M/mL/°P or .4L of fresh slurry in my 10 gallon batches. Obviously shoot for ~200-250mL of fresh slurry for you 5 gallon batches. 

Follow up question: what type of wort aeration are you utilizing, if any? I was concerned about the date and rarely pitch without a starter, but I did hit it for over a minute with pure o2.
I use open fermentation + 5 min with aquarium pump

Wheat yeast is a sensitive to pressure, open fermentation helps develop a lot of yeast character. In my recipe/process development those have been my favorite brews.  Perfect balance is my goal.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk
Cool, I have no liquid in the airlock. It is just covered with foil.
I’ve seen a lot of people talk about making an open fermenter by replacing the airlock with foil. I find it hard to believe that the pressure of the airlock makes any significant difference in the pressure at the surface of the beer especially considering the hydrostatic pressure of the beer in the fermenter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

110% correct.

The reason for the stall is that most of the yeast is trapped in the krausen and not in the wort in the height of fermentation. The krausen will start to then fall and yeast will mix back with the wort. Bubbling an airlock is absolutely nothing.
So beery - question for you, or anyone else to chime in. Now some stairways to heaven amongst others have a channel for krausen/yeast to spill over.  Is that generally getting the mothers out so they dont fall back into the wort leaving the daughters behind? And so on and so forth. Or is that to allow the most o2 exposed to the yeast, low pressure, and an easy cleanup vs Yorkshire squares?  IIRC the open circles are more shallow than squares allowing a better surface area for Weiß.

Not that there really needs to be an answer for those questions, it was just a curious thought from a waist deep enthusiast.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: JT on June 30, 2018, 01:46:28 PM
You brilliant SOBs!  Will be enjoying this keg.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/fd92c6f13cbc52c240c2ef61b4dfe367.jpg)
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: Brewtopalonian on June 30, 2018, 03:51:51 PM
You brilliant SOBs!  Will be enjoying this keg.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/fd92c6f13cbc52c240c2ef61b4dfe367.jpg)
Looks beautiful! 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: BrewBama on June 30, 2018, 07:30:33 PM
You brilliant SOBs!  Will be enjoying this keg.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/fd92c6f13cbc52c240c2ef61b4dfe367.jpg)
Looks beautiful! 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Absolute work of art. That’s my on deck brew.  Brewday planned for early on the 4th. I hope to have the same success.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: JT on August 19, 2018, 01:00:23 AM
You brilliant SOBs!  Will be enjoying this keg.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/fd92c6f13cbc52c240c2ef61b4dfe367.jpg)
Took a bunch of medals tonight, but need to dedicate one of them to this thread!!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180819/5d25306a38e514284b378c8894ee1ca6.jpg)
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: JJeffers09 on August 19, 2018, 09:03:37 AM
You brilliant SOBs!  Will be enjoying this keg.  (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180630/fd92c6f13cbc52c240c2ef61b4dfe367.jpg)
Took a bunch of medals tonight, but need to dedicate one of them to this thread!!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180819/5d25306a38e514284b378c8894ee1ca6.jpg)
Well done! Congrats

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: dannyjed on August 19, 2018, 04:17:27 PM
Congrats JT!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
Post by: Brewtopalonian on August 19, 2018, 04:25:50 PM
Congrats!!!  That's what I'm talking about!!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk