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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: trapae on March 04, 2018, 02:07:39 AM

Title: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: trapae on March 04, 2018, 02:07:39 AM
 My typical hop schedule for my house IPA is:
 60 minute boil addition
 15 minute boil addition
  7minute boil addition
 Then a large whirlpool addition at 175 for 30 minutes.
 Dryhop

I’m very happy with his beer but I know in the last several years people of gotten completely away from any late boil additions. I’m thinking about taking all of my 15 and 7 minute additions and just throwing it in the whirlpool.   I wonder however this will take some complexity out of the beer?  I realize I won’t know it’s right for me until I give it a try, but I was wondering if anyone has any opinions?
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: klickitat jim on March 04, 2018, 03:03:56 AM
My 2 cents. Complex procedure or recipe doesn't always equate to complex beer in the glass. My IPA is one bittering charge early, two or at most 3 hops in an actual whirlpool at 170F, and everything else is dry hop post fermentation.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: Stevie on March 04, 2018, 03:19:57 AM
I still like a strong hop at 20 for most pale ales and IPAs. Generally an ounce for every 5.5 gallons of finished beer. Columbus or Chinook are generally my top choices.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: majorvices on March 04, 2018, 12:53:00 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: dmtaylor on March 04, 2018, 01:35:43 PM
I like boil additions, but I only use them at 60, 10, or 2, depending if I want bitterness, flavor, or flavor + aroma.  Any hop addition in between like 60 and 10 is a waste for a brewer who couldn't make up their mind what they wanted IMO.  Keep it simple.

That said, I probably will be using extended flameouts for all my IPAs in future.  APAs, maybe not.  But IPA, yes.
Title: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: coolman26 on March 04, 2018, 02:26:32 PM
I’m a 60min, flameout, and whirlpool guy. An IPA absent of bitterness just doesn’t float the boat for me.


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Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: majorvices on March 04, 2018, 02:58:20 PM
I should say, yes absolutely use a 60 min addition
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: yso191 on March 04, 2018, 04:27:20 PM
For me, no.  I have a single 60 minute addition for AA and a 170* hopstand for oils.  Followed of course by a healthy dry hopping.

Given that different hop oils boil at different temperatures, my guess is that all that is happening in boil additions is boiling off different hop oils at different rates.  Some may linger longer than others.   I imagine that anything more than a few minutes in an actually boiling wort would result in a reduction of more than half of the oils in whatever hop one uses.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: denny on March 04, 2018, 05:11:47 PM
I do FWH, 60, 2-5 min., anf dry hop on all IPAs.  Sometimes I add in a whirlpool addition.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: skyler on March 04, 2018, 07:35:37 PM
My most common hop schedule:

FWH (not every time)
60 mins
10 mins (usually 1oz of cascade per 5-6 gal)
Whirlpool (30 mins at ~170F - 1-3 varieties)
Dry (now usually 3 oz per 5-6 gallons - 1-3 varieties)
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: ethinson on March 05, 2018, 12:54:55 PM
I do 60/10/Dry Hop.  1oz at 60 of a bittering hop (Magnum/Warrior).  1oz at 10 of aroma hops and then 2oz dry hop. (4 oz hops in 3 gallons)

Personally, I wouldn't remove the 15 and 7, but maybe combine them.  Take whatever the amounts for both and put it all in at 15, or hit the middle at 10.  The AA% difference will probably be negligible.

Also, if you're happy with the beer why change it? Even if it's not the "normal" procedure, it works well for you.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: yso191 on March 05, 2018, 02:48:29 PM
I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why?

Why do you do boil additions that are for flavor not Alpha?  Is anything to be gained flavor wise from a 30, 15, 10, 5, or even flameout additions, that a 170* hopstand wouldn't do better?  Is there a difference in either amount of flavor or type of flavor that occurs in boil additions?

.....Aaaand go.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: dmtaylor on March 05, 2018, 03:23:33 PM
I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why?

Why do you do boil additions that are for flavor not Alpha?  Is anything to be gained flavor wise from a 30, 15, 10, 5, or even flameout additions, that a 170* hopstand wouldn't do better?  Is there a difference in either amount of flavor or type of flavor that occurs in boil additions?

.....Aaaand go.

Yup.  +1
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: trapae on March 05, 2018, 04:44:13 PM
 Yep Steve, that’s really my question. My 15 and 7 minute additions are left over from the old way of thinking but haven’t changed it,  just added Whirlpooling as my bank account allowed me to buy a pump at Whirlpool arm.  I guess the question is do you get more complex flavors from some boil editions than just a big hopstand and dry hop alone.  I don’t brew enough to do actual taste comparison experiments, has anyone tried this?
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: denny on March 05, 2018, 06:13:02 PM
I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why?

Why do you do boil additions that are for flavor not Alpha?  Is anything to be gained flavor wise from a 30, 15, 10, 5, or even flameout additions, that a 170* hopstand wouldn't do better?  Is there a difference in either amount of flavor or type of flavor that occurs in boil additions?

.....Aaaand go.

I think you went off course when you said "better".  The kettle additions are different.  Whether or no they're "better" depends on your tastes and goals.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: ethinson on March 05, 2018, 09:13:55 PM
I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why?

Why do you do boil additions that are for flavor not Alpha?  Is anything to be gained flavor wise from a 30, 15, 10, 5, or even flameout additions, that a 170* hopstand wouldn't do better?  Is there a difference in either amount of flavor or type of flavor that occurs in boil additions?

.....Aaaand go.

At least for me, the difference is equipment and technique.  I do extract/stove top.  No pumps, so I can't (or it would be a lot more difficult) for me to do all grain techniques like FWH or whirlpool hop additions without multiple kettles and a pump. 

I started out with online recipes that did additions of 60, 45, 30, 20, 10, flameout, dry hop etc.. and I've condensed that down to 60, 10, dry.  In my opinion, I still get good flavor and aroma from the short boil hops, and they do add a tiny bit of BU.  I get 85-90% of my AA from the 60 and then a small amount for the 10 min.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: MNWayne on March 05, 2018, 11:27:44 PM
I do additions at 60/45/30/15/2/0 minutes, usually nothing in my fermenter. Does it make better beer? Maybe. I can't say for sure, but I like my beer, as do my friends. It makes me feel like a mad scientist adding all those hops and I'm going to continue as such.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: narvin on March 06, 2018, 03:08:20 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: yso191 on March 06, 2018, 03:15:21 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?

The only thing I can think of is that it eliminates (in my case) 5 ounces of hop material from the fermenter while still capturing the oils.  I put 5 ounces in the whirlpool and 5 in the fermenter... 10 ounces of uncompacted hop material in a 5 gallon batch would approach the losses seen in Fresh hop beers.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: erockrph on March 06, 2018, 03:24:05 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?

In my experience, whirlpool hops give a different character than dry hops. Dry hops can't be beat for that big blast of aroma when you stick your nose in the glass, and they are at least part of the equation when looking for that "juicy" character. Whirlpool hops tend to leave more of an enduring flavor that lingers on the palate. To me, whirlpool hops seem less "fruit juice" in flavor than dry hops. Neither are strictly better than the other, but I do think they give different results.

For my part, I have moved to just one large whirlpool/hop stand addition for my IPA's - no boil or dry hops. It is as much for simplicity in the brewing process as it is for flavor, though. I don't necessarily see it as "better" than boil or dry hopping from a flavor standpoint, but it gets me a beer that I thoroughly enjoy and keeps my brewday simpler.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 06, 2018, 05:28:52 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?

In my experience, whirlpool hops give a different character than dry hops. Dry hops can't be beat for that big blast of aroma when you stick your nose in the glass, and they are at least part of the equation when looking for that "juicy" character. Whirlpool hops tend to leave more of an enduring flavor that lingers on the palate. To me, whirlpool hops seem less "fruit juice" in flavor than dry hops. Neither are strictly better than the other, but I do think they give different results.

For my part, I have moved to just one large whirlpool/hop stand addition for my IPA's - no boil or dry hops. It is as much for simplicity in the brewing process as it is for flavor, though. I don't necessarily see it as "better" than boil or dry hopping from a flavor standpoint, but it gets me a beer that I thoroughly enjoy and keeps my brewday simpler.
Also interested in skipping dry hopping. What do you call large?
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: erockrph on March 06, 2018, 05:37:04 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?

In my experience, whirlpool hops give a different character than dry hops. Dry hops can't be beat for that big blast of aroma when you stick your nose in the glass, and they are at least part of the equation when looking for that "juicy" character. Whirlpool hops tend to leave more of an enduring flavor that lingers on the palate. To me, whirlpool hops seem less "fruit juice" in flavor than dry hops. Neither are strictly better than the other, but I do think they give different results.

For my part, I have moved to just one large whirlpool/hop stand addition for my IPA's - no boil or dry hops. It is as much for simplicity in the brewing process as it is for flavor, though. I don't necessarily see it as "better" than boil or dry hopping from a flavor standpoint, but it gets me a beer that I thoroughly enjoy and keeps my brewday simpler.
Also interested in skipping dry hopping. What do you call large?
2-4 oz/gallon (about 15-30g/L). For my IPAs I whirlpool hot (immediately after flameout) for about 45-90 minutes. I get the right quality of bitterness for my tastes with this kind of addition (firm, but not abrasive).

I don't know if this is necessarily a replacement for dry hops, but it's generally "good enough" for me. I'm just to busy/lazy to be messing around with dry hops lately. You can certainly use dry hops in addition to the whirlpool to really max out the hop character.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: homoeccentricus on March 06, 2018, 06:04:47 PM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?

In my experience, whirlpool hops give a different character than dry hops. Dry hops can't be beat for that big blast of aroma when you stick your nose in the glass, and they are at least part of the equation when looking for that "juicy" character. Whirlpool hops tend to leave more of an enduring flavor that lingers on the palate. To me, whirlpool hops seem less "fruit juice" in flavor than dry hops. Neither are strictly better than the other, but I do think they give different results.

For my part, I have moved to just one large whirlpool/hop stand addition for my IPA's - no boil or dry hops. It is as much for simplicity in the brewing process as it is for flavor, though. I don't necessarily see it as "better" than boil or dry hopping from a flavor standpoint, but it gets me a beer that I thoroughly enjoy and keeps my brewday simpler.
Also interested in skipping dry hopping. What do you call large?
2-4 oz/gallon (about 15-30g/L). For my IPAs I whirlpool hot (immediately after flameout) for about 45-90 minutes. I get the right quality of bitterness for my tastes with this kind of addition (firm, but not abrasive).

I don't know if this is necessarily a replacement for dry hops, but it's generally "good enough" for me. I'm just to busy/lazy to be messing around with dry hops lately. You can certainly use dry hops in addition to the whirlpool to really max out the hop character.
A 90 minute whirlpool? The Gods of Low Oxygen will throw me off the Tarpeian Rock   if I dare do this.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 06, 2018, 09:04:38 PM
Most of my beers are FWH or 60 min, then 0 and dry hops.  I tried the cryo hops for dry hopping and really like the result, though, I must admit Denny's RIPA is about the only IPA I make anymore.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: charlie on March 07, 2018, 12:15:32 AM
My hop schedule (10 gallon batch) is bittering at 60 minutes followed by an ounce each at 20, 15, 10, 5 and 0 minutes. Then I get it in the fermentors as quickly as possible.

IMHO whirlpool hops are a waste of time (and hops), and the main reason commercial brew rigs suck (you can't do late hop adds if you whirlpool). If you want alpha conversion (and I don't!) just add them earlier.

Charlie
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: klickitat jim on March 07, 2018, 12:44:57 AM
My hop schedule (10 gallon batch) is bittering at 60 minutes followed by an ounce each at 20, 15, 10, 5 and 0 minutes. Then I get it in the fermentors as quickly as possible.

IMHO whirlpool hops are a waste of time (and hops), and the main reason commercial brew rigs suck (you can't do late hop adds if you whirlpool). If you want alpha conversion (and I don't!) just add them earlier.

Charlie
Why can't you do late hop adds if you whirlpool? I can do hop additions any time I choose, or all of them. FWH, 60-0, whirlpool held at any temp I choose for any time I choose.
Title: Re: Does anyone use late boil additions in IPAs anymore?
Post by: erockrph on March 07, 2018, 03:10:58 AM
I went back to a 10 minute charge in my IPA and I think it tastes way better.

+1

If anything, I think early boil additions other than a small bittering charge are out of favor.

And, to take the assertions here and twist them around, what does a whirpool accomplish that can't be done better with dry hopping (both during and after active fermentation)?

In my experience, whirlpool hops give a different character than dry hops. Dry hops can't be beat for that big blast of aroma when you stick your nose in the glass, and they are at least part of the equation when looking for that "juicy" character. Whirlpool hops tend to leave more of an enduring flavor that lingers on the palate. To me, whirlpool hops seem less "fruit juice" in flavor than dry hops. Neither are strictly better than the other, but I do think they give different results.

For my part, I have moved to just one large whirlpool/hop stand addition for my IPA's - no boil or dry hops. It is as much for simplicity in the brewing process as it is for flavor, though. I don't necessarily see it as "better" than boil or dry hopping from a flavor standpoint, but it gets me a beer that I thoroughly enjoy and keeps my brewday simpler.
Also interested in skipping dry hopping. What do you call large?
2-4 oz/gallon (about 15-30g/L). For my IPAs I whirlpool hot (immediately after flameout) for about 45-90 minutes. I get the right quality of bitterness for my tastes with this kind of addition (firm, but not abrasive).

I don't know if this is necessarily a replacement for dry hops, but it's generally "good enough" for me. I'm just to busy/lazy to be messing around with dry hops lately. You can certainly use dry hops in addition to the whirlpool to really max out the hop character.
A 90 minute whirlpool? The Gods of Low Oxygen will throw me off the Tarpeian Rock   if I dare do this.
Keep it hot and you'll minimize O2 pickup.

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