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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: petermmitchell on March 11, 2018, 01:10:24 PM

Title: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: petermmitchell on March 11, 2018, 01:10:24 PM
For the 1st 60min or fwh addition in standard American ipas 5-6% range, how many ibu’s do you target in BeerSmith?  I recently brewed a 10gal batch of ipa and used 1.5oz of warrior and boiled for 60min.  Was good but thinking I could add more bitterness to go with the hop flavor/aroma.  I was happy with that part.  Just curious how much others were using.  Also I did use ro water adjusted to 200ppm sulfate.


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Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: petermmitchell on March 11, 2018, 01:50:26 PM
Here is the recipe for reference:
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.99 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.24 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 11.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 5.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 82.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 74.8 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
21 lbs                Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        91.0 %       
1 lbs                 Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM)              Grain         2        4.1 %         
10.0 oz               Caramel Malt - 40L (Briess) (40.0 SRM)   Grain         3        2.7 %         
8.0 oz                Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM)    Grain         4        2.2 %         
1.50 oz               Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min        Hop           5        38.0 IBUs     
0.50 oz               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Boil 30.0 min        Hop           6        6.0 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  20. Hop           7        9.4 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  20.0 Hop           8        5.6 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Centennial [10.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool   Hop           9        10.2 IBUs     
2.00 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  20.0 Hop           10       13.3 IBUs     
2.0 pkg               Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast         11       -             
3.00 oz               Amarillo [9.20 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days     Hop           12       0.0 IBUs     
3.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days      Hop           13       0.0 IBUs     
3.00 oz               Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days  Hop           14       0.0 IBUs     
3.00 oz               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days      Hop           15       0.0 IBUs     
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 11, 2018, 02:47:10 PM
I usually target at least 1:1 BU:OG. So 65 IBU for a 1.065 beer. For a 1.053 beer you are over that.

What is the FG on your beer? Residual sugars can balance out the bitterness. If you want more of a punch, replace th3 warrior with Columbus or Chinook.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: denny on March 11, 2018, 04:27:06 PM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: petermmitchell on March 12, 2018, 12:30:43 AM
I usually target at least 1:1 BU:OG. So 65 IBU for a 1.065 beer. For a 1.053 beer you are over that.

What is the FG on your beer? Residual sugars can balance out the bitterness. If you want more of a punch, replace th3 warrior with Columbus or Chinook.
The fg was 1008


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Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 12, 2018, 03:52:07 AM
I usually target at least 1:1 BU:OG. So 65 IBU for a 1.065 beer. For a 1.053 beer you are over that.

What is the FG on your beer? Residual sugars can balance out the bitterness. If you want more of a punch, replace th3 warrior with Columbus or Chinook.
The fg was 1008


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That should be dry enough, can’t recommend anything to take it down farther.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: petermmitchell on March 12, 2018, 11:32:44 PM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


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Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 12, 2018, 11:47:54 PM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Big Monk on March 12, 2018, 11:55:00 PM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


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Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

There are some good calcs out there that approximate the BU from whirlpool additions. We just incorporated some into our spreadsheet. Pretty simple actually, you just incorporate a modifier to the Tinseth utilization and viola.

Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 12:32:47 AM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

There are some good calcs out there that approximate the BU from whirlpool additions. We just incorporated some into our spreadsheet. Pretty simple actually, you just incorporate a modifier to the Tinseth utilization and viola.
I remember when I first started brewing, my early knowledge on hops was

1. Bitterness comes from isolmerized alpha acids. So obviously, there's no other way that hops could possibly make bitterness come into my beer. Check!

2. High alpha acid hops are for bittering. So you only can add them at 60 min, and they don't bring any flavor or aroma to my beer. Check!

3. Low alpha acid hops are for flavor only and you add them at 10 min before turning off the stove, or right as you turn off the stove for an advanced method called "Flameout". They don't add any bitterness, only flavor. Check!

4. Dry hops are the only way to get any aroma. Check!

Then I brewed a couple batches and start learning that there's more to it.

I use Brewer's Friend and it allows me to adjust utilization at whirlpool. For my tastes, experience, on my beers... I've gotten to where I glance at predicted IBU from my FWH/60 and then I ignore IBU from there on. It's all by experience and preference. When someone asks how many IBUs I say I don't know
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 12:54:59 AM
"When someone asks how many IBUs I say I don't know"

And when someone tells you how many IBUs, they don't know!  ;)
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 12:59:40 AM
True, the IBU isn't as accurate as the IMF

Before I get in trouble... back to the original intent of the thread. 1:1 BU:GU is a good starting point for IPA
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 01:15:28 AM
True, the IBU isn't as accurate as the IMF

Before I get in trouble... back to the original intent of the thread. 1:1 BU:GU is a good starting point for IPA

I was partly serious:  IBU for us is WAG or at best SWAG.  So in recipe development/dialing in your system use a calculated figure as a starting point.  Like 1:1.  Then don't think in IBU, just start to learn "when I do X the beer tastes like Y."  Far more relevant than numbers.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 13, 2018, 01:33:25 AM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

The science from OSU says isomorization goes on below boiling. You get less as the temperature goes down.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 13, 2018, 01:35:02 AM
"When someone asks how many IBUs I say I don't know"

And when someone tells you how many IBUs, they don't know!  ;)
IBUs are pretty accurate for th3 beers they were developed on. The clear lagers of the 60s.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 13, 2018, 01:35:38 AM
"When someone asks how many IBUs I say I don't know"

And when someone tells you how many IBUs, they don't know!  ;)
IBUs are pretty accurate for th3 beers they were developed on. The clear lagers of the 60s, with one bettering addition.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 01:44:13 AM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

The science from OSU says isomorization goes on below boiling. You get less as the temperature goes down.
Totally, its not an on/off switch at 212. Ive heard various %s at 190/180/170 but I've not been able to find how much at 150F or below.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 13, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

The science from OSU says isomorization goes on below boiling. You get less as the temperature goes down.
Totally, its not an on/off switch at 212. Ive heard various %s at 190/180/170 but I've not been able to find how much at 150F or below.
Try and find Mark Molowicki’s master thesis from OSU.

Scott Janish got 2 IBU from a beer dry hopped at room temperature, HPLC measurements, it’s on his blog.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 02:14:05 AM
Found the paper. According to the summary, the lowest they tested was 90C/194F.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 02:21:36 AM
I've frequently seen 180°F cited as threshold for isomerization, but who knows where that comes from.  My FWH is easily below that and I seem to get fullest possible bittering out of the addition even with short boils.  Just testing by taste buds.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Big Monk on March 13, 2018, 02:28:10 AM
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 02:32:47 AM
I think I can see the weeds from here, and a rabbit hole right in the middle....   ;)
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 02:37:09 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

Saying that IBUs only come from isolmerized alpha acids is like saying high alpha hops are for 60 min additions and low alpha are for dry hopping. Ya, maybe a good starting point but keep experiencing and adapting to your experience
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 02:43:23 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.
That's what Jeff was getting at with his remark about 60s light lager.  BU was developed at a time when they assumed degraded hops, with lots of beta acids oxidized to solubility, and brewhouse procedures that extracted more of other bitter substances from grain and hops.  The relation to iso-alpha is tenuous.

EDIT  _The Practical Brewer _ (MBAA, 1977) indicates in exemplary analyses that BU is about 1.15x iso-alpha acids.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 02:54:38 AM
I imagine the 2005 OSU study used fresh hops though. By oxidized alpha and beta, I dont think they mean stale.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 13, 2018, 02:55:06 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

Saying that IBUs only come from isolmerized alpha acids is like saying high alpha hops are for 60 min additions and low alpha are for dry hopping. Ya, maybe a good starting point but keep experiencing and adapting to your experience
Was that from the Janish blog?

He had some really good stuff there.
http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Big Monk on March 13, 2018, 02:59:04 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

IBUs by way of calculation are a sensory guidepost. I’m less concerned with absolute values and more concerned with how I can use the calculations to predict what tastes good to me.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 03:02:54 AM
I imagine the 2005 OSU study used fresh hops though. By oxidized alpha and beta, I dont think they mean stale.
Hops are also utilized differently now,  so there's equal but different opportunity to extract bitter substances other than iso-alpha.  In the day, increased solubility of beta offset decreases in alpha, then all the other stuff.  The whole BU concept needs reevaluation, which I presume they are working towards.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 03:03:19 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

Saying that IBUs only come from isolmerized alpha acids is like saying high alpha hops are for 60 min additions and low alpha are for dry hopping. Ya, maybe a good starting point but keep experiencing and adapting to your experience
Was that from the Janish blog?

He had some really good stuff there.
http://scottjanish.com/zero-hot-side-hopped-neipa-hplc-testing-sensory-bitterness/
Alchemyoverlord? Can't find a name on it but it's obviously someone more sciency than me
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 03:04:30 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

IBUs by way of calculation are a sensory guidepost. I’m less concerned with absolute values and more concerned with how I can use the calculations to predict what tastes good to me.
Precisely!

Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 13, 2018, 03:04:54 AM
Here's a quote that indicates what I am feebly trying to articulate. "One obvious result from this experiment is that IBU values can not be directly substituted for isomerized α-acid values, especially at short steep times, high hopping rates, and sub-boiling temperatures.  This is because IBU values reflect not only isomerized α-acid values, but also contributions from oxidized α and βacids and polyphenols."

Um, soooo lab measured IBUs contain more than just isolmerized alpha acids. Like I said, whirlpool hops do bring bitterness to the beer. More than an isolmerization chart will predict.

IBUs by way of calculation are a sensory guidepost. I’m less concerned with absolute values and more concerned with how I can use the calculations to predict what tastes good to me.
Big Monk, you're dangerously close to getting this thread back on track.  What are you thinking!?
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: klickitat jim on March 13, 2018, 03:05:50 AM
I imagine the 2005 OSU study used fresh hops though. By oxidized alpha and beta, I dont think they mean stale.
Hops are also utilized differently now,  so there's equal but different opportunity to extract bitter substances other than iso-alpha.  In the day, increased solubility of beta offset decreases in alpha, then all the other stuff.  The whole BU concept needs reevaluation, which I presume they are working towards.
After they first perfect the IMF, I hope.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: yso191 on March 13, 2018, 02:03:11 PM
What was your level of Magnesium?  I found that was the difference when I was encountering low *perceived* bitterness.  I would regularly have calculated IBU's of over 100 but the IPA would have the bitterness of a Pale Ale, until I upped the Magnesium... boom!  Perceived bitterness.

My target now is 20-24 ppm of Magnesium.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: petermmitchell on March 13, 2018, 03:45:51 PM
Thanks everyone for sharing your suggestions!  I am not currently adding any magnesium to my water adjustments.  Just calcium chloride and gypsum and lactic acid to adjust mash PH.  I would guess the magnesium ppm would be pretty close to 0.  Would you suggest adding some epsom salt maybe?
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: yso191 on March 13, 2018, 03:55:20 PM
If you don’t already have it, use Bru’n Water for water salts and pH. 
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: denny on March 13, 2018, 04:31:51 PM
I start by deciding how much FWH I want to use (OK, you guys, don't start!  ;) )  That usually is 1-2 oz.  Then I figure out how much to use at 60 min. to get in the neighborhood of the 1:1 BU:GU ratio Jess talks about.
Is that ratio guideline for total ibus? Or just the bittering additions?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Not to speak for Denny but, usually when people reffer to GU/BU its total they are talking about. 1:1 would be like 1.060 to 60 IBU.

The trouble is when it comes to high dose whirlpool additions. The science might say that no isolmerization is happening below X temp, but our mouths still translate those additions as some level of bitterness, though zero IBUs. If anyone doubts that, do a batch with no boil hops, and about 3 ounces of Simcoe at 150F for 30 min. There will be some bitterness. So, like any other ingredient, sometimes we can totally reduce hops to a numerical matrix. But experience will tell you what you like, don't like.

The science from OSU says isomorization goes on below boiling. You get less as the temperature goes down.

Yeah, as low as 180F IRC.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: denny on March 13, 2018, 04:32:49 PM
"When someone asks how many IBUs I say I don't know"

And when someone tells you how many IBUs, they don't know!  ;)
IBUs are pretty accurate for th3 beers they were developed on. The clear lagers of the 60s, with one bettering addition.

Just like Tinseth's formula is accurate as long as you don't use pellets and boil and chill on a system just like his.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: denny on March 13, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05

Based on my conversations with Glenn Tinseth, it would seem that modifying his formula may not be the best idea.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Big Monk on March 13, 2018, 07:12:40 PM
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05

Based on my conversations with Glenn Tinseth, it would seem that modifying his formula may not be the best idea.

It’s a tool. Just like any tool, it can be manipulated to give results that correspond with sensory analysis. IBU calculations are a guidepost. You use values from commercial examples and examples of beers you’ve brewed and you use the equations to make the sensory analysis of those beers line up.

 
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: denny on March 13, 2018, 07:23:02 PM
Some of the calcs I’ve seen essentially take the OSU paper and use the findings to produce a modifier for the Tinseth Utilization value as follows:

Whirlpool Utilization = Regular Utilization * 0.6^((212-Whirlpool Temp (°F))/18)

EDIT: So say U is calculated at 0.125, and you whirlpool at 180 °F, U would be modified to:

0.125 * 0.403 = ~ 0.05

Based on my conversations with Glenn Tinseth, it would seem that modifying his formula may not be the best idea.

It’s a tool. Just like any tool, it can be manipulated to give results that correspond with sensory analysis. IBU calculations are a guidepost. You use values from commercial examples and examples of beers you’ve brewed and you use the equations to make the sensory analysis of those beers line up.

Yep.
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: petermmitchell on March 14, 2018, 10:56:03 PM
Silly question - but is there a particular kind / brand of epsom salt to use for water adjustments?  Is the laxative one ok, lol
Title: Re: Bittering addition amounts for ipa
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2018, 11:05:57 PM
Silly question - but is there a particular kind / brand of epsom salt to use for water adjustments?  Is the laxative one ok, lol
Yeah, that's the one.  The USP epsom salt from the pharmacy.  If it's labelled as a laxative (as well as a bath soak etc.) it's pure and safe for food use.  If it's just labelled for bathing or whatever, don't brew with it.