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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: porkchopexp2 on March 14, 2018, 03:22:21 PM

Title: Using harvested yeast
Post by: porkchopexp2 on March 14, 2018, 03:22:21 PM
I collected yeast, after racking my Session IPA, into 500ml mason jars. I collected 4 jars.  I have 25ml of yeast cake, and the rest beer.  I have a very thin creamy color on top of the 25ml yeast cake.  Is this the good yeast, and the rest is dead yeast and proteins?

I plan on brewing an American Pale Ale and repitching with this harvested yeast.  I've used Mr. Malty repitching calculator and need 225ml of yeast. Seems I'm way short of this amount.

The harvested yeast was US-05, it was harvested on 02/24/2018.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2018, 04:26:03 PM
Search "yeast rinsing," this is how you separate the good yeast from non-yeast material.  I collect my whole slurry in one half gal jar, rinse, and end up with around 4 oz of good slurry, about right for lager pitch rates.  You might need to use all you collected to separate enough good stuff.  But try it.  Harvesting, rinsing and repitching (you can go many, many generations) is a great way to have good, healthy, well adapted yeast.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: denny on March 14, 2018, 04:58:07 PM
I have found that yeast rinsing is a PITA that has no appreciable benefit to the beer.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: tommymorris on March 14, 2018, 05:26:42 PM
I collect slurry and store it under the beer the slurry came from. I use Mr. Malty to estimate how much to pitch (though often exceed Mr. Malty by 2-3x.) I find this way easier than rinsing. I pitch the unrinsed slurry after decanting the beer.

I don’t store the slurry very long. Usually, 2-3 weeks max. But, you can store longer and make a starter from the slurry to rejuvenate before pitching.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: TeeDubb on March 14, 2018, 06:13:23 PM
I asked a similar question a few months ago and got some great feedback from "Todd H." who seems to have a technical background in yeast genetics.  It appears that from a biological perspective, it may be better to keep the yeast in the beer that it was taken from. I like that simple is better :)

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=30475.msg398244#msg398244
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 14, 2018, 07:21:25 PM
I believe the very best way to reduce trub in yeast is to propagate from a small amount. The yeast will grow, the trub will not.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2018, 08:05:56 PM
I have found that yeast rinsing is a PITA that has no appreciable benefit to the beer.
Really? I mean I'll believe you of all people Denny , but it seems at least if you rinse you know how much good yeast you're repitching vs just how much stuff, though it may not separate all bacteria or petite mutants.  How many generations are you going without rinsing?  I'd hate to waste (minimal) effort!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 14, 2018, 09:50:26 PM
I have found that yeast rinsing is a PITA that has no appreciable benefit to the beer.
Really? I mean I'll believe you of all people Denny , but it seems at least if you rinse you know how much good yeast you're repitching vs just how much stuff, though it may not separate all bacteria or petite mutants.  How many generations are you going without rinsing?  I'd hate to waste (minimal) effort!

I am not Denny, but I agree with his assessment.  As for yeast generational anecdotal evidence, I took a pilsner yeast out 25 generations by simply re-pitching successively without any problems.  I gave it up when I wanted to try different yeasts.  I now don't count how many generations are used, because it rarely exceeds 5 or so.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2018, 10:02:00 PM
I have found that yeast rinsing is a PITA that has no appreciable benefit to the beer.
Really? I mean I'll believe you of all people Denny , but it seems at least if you rinse you know how much good yeast you're repitching vs just how much stuff, though it may not separate all bacteria or petite mutants.  How many generations are you going without rinsing?  I'd hate to waste (minimal) effort!

I am not Denny, but I agree with his assessment.  As for yeast generational anecdotal evidence, I took a pilsner yeast out 25 generations by simply re-pitching successively without any problems.  I gave it up when I wanted to try different yeasts.  I now don't count how many generations are used, because it rarely exceeds 5 or so.
Hmm.  I'm Pilsner guy, I like to go a good 12-15 gens, but I'm not obsessive about that part.  Just that yeast in the first couple gens never makes the best beer.  So, I figure since rinsing takes me all of 20 minutes, only 2 or so active, I won't stop rinsing.  Not what I call a PITA, just a habit. Unless somebody thinks there's any actual harm in the practice? 
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 14, 2018, 10:18:50 PM
One brewer's PITA is another brewer's ultimate joy. I have tried just about every method of handling yeast from chucking dry yeast straight from the package to plating and propping single colonies. Including yeast rinsing. The most effective-efficient method FOR ME has been active starters from smack packs.

I used to buy into the beer improving with more generations theory. I just didn't find it in my brewery. I don't doubt that people are finding improvement, it's just that I'm not.

We all seem to have a strange desire to get everyone to brew like we do. But we ought to keep in mind that there are several good methods and we each find our joy in slightly different ways.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2018, 10:32:18 PM
Hear ya, Jim.  Guess I'm not really trying to get people to do it my way, just offering an option that works.  OP seemed to intuit that all the layers in his jar might not be equal. Which could be true but insignificant, I guess! So I really want to know if there's a good reason NOT to do what I do.  (For me the real PITA is making a starter every time instead of just chucking it out of a jar.  I'm open to chucking STRAIGHT out of the jar w/o rinsing!)
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: tommymorris on March 14, 2018, 10:44:40 PM
I am definitely grossed out by trub and all the non-yeast on the bottom of my fermenter and in the slurry I collect. However, over the years, I have learned, if it sinks to the bottom of the fermenter and doesn’t get served in my pint, it’s generally not a problem.

With that in mind, I don’t mind pouring some trub and hops from a previous batch into my current batch. All that non-yeast stuff settles out and seems not to effect my new beer.

Regarding how much slurry to pitch, Mr. Malty addresses the non-yeast content. I just slide that bar all the way to the right. I figure my slurry is particularly nasty, since I don’t whirlpool and I don’t do anything to keep spent hops out of my fermenter. I just pour everything right into the fermenter and pitch yeast.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: denny on March 14, 2018, 10:50:10 PM
I have found that yeast rinsing is a PITA that has no appreciable benefit to the beer.
Really? I mean I'll believe you of all people Denny , but it seems at least if you rinse you know how much good yeast you're repitching vs just how much stuff, though it may not separate all bacteria or petite mutants.  How many generations are you going without rinsing?  I'd hate to waste (minimal) effort!

Robert, IIRC I've gone 5-7 generations without rinsing.  I may have been able to go longer, but I have so much yeast around I've never tried.  As to the amount, I eyeball it and wing it.  Always remember, malted barley WANTS to become beer.  It's less fiddly than many make it out to be.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: denny on March 14, 2018, 10:52:01 PM
I have found that yeast rinsing is a PITA that has no appreciable benefit to the beer.
Really? I mean I'll believe you of all people Denny , but it seems at least if you rinse you know how much good yeast you're repitching vs just how much stuff, though it may not separate all bacteria or petite mutants.  How many generations are you going without rinsing?  I'd hate to waste (minimal) effort!

I am not Denny, but I agree with his assessment.  As for yeast generational anecdotal evidence, I took a pilsner yeast out 25 generations by simply re-pitching successively without any problems.  I gave it up when I wanted to try different yeasts.  I now don't count how many generations are used, because it rarely exceeds 5 or so.
Hmm.  I'm Pilsner guy, I like to go a good 12-15 gens, but I'm not obsessive about that part.  Just that yeast in the first couple gens never makes the best beer.  So, I figure since rinsing takes me all of 20 minutes, only 2 or so active, I won't stop rinsing.  Not what I call a PITA, just a habit. Unless somebody thinks there's any actual harm in the practice?

There's a potential for harm, but you obviously know how to avoid it.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 14, 2018, 10:59:37 PM
Thanks, Denny!  You're right, I'll know what makes me uncomfortable risk-wise.  Just for kicks, next time I think I'll skip the rinse and relax, don't worry, pitch the yeast.

EDIT Great time to try a new approach, as I've got 1st gen in the fermenter now!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 15, 2018, 12:29:28 AM
Thanks, Denny!  You're right, I'll know what makes me uncomfortable risk-wise.  Just for kicks, next time I think I'll skip the rinse and relax, don't worry, pitch the yeast.

EDIT Great time to try a new approach, as I've got 1st gen in the fermenter now!
If you're in the mood to experiment, have you tried a vitality pitch?
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 15, 2018, 12:52:17 AM
Thanks, Denny!  You're right, I'll know what makes me uncomfortable risk-wise.  Just for kicks, next time I think I'll skip the rinse and relax, don't worry, pitch the yeast.

EDIT Great time to try a new approach, as I've got 1st gen in the fermenter now!
If you're in the mood to experiment, have you tried a vitality pitch?

I'm not opposed, but it hasn't come up.  I generally repitch 3-5 days after harvesting so I don't worry about vitality. That's darn fresh yeast. If a have a hiatus and go longer than I'm comfortable with, I make a new starter from a smack pack.  But a contingency plan I do want to try is, instead of a new starter, just pitch  some of the longer-stored slurry into a quart or so of chilled wort at the end of the brew and oxygenate; my fermenter spends 4-5 hours in the fridge cooling the last few degrees to pitch temp, so pitching the jar then should essentially be what you call a vitality starter, right?
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 15, 2018, 01:01:24 AM
By vitality starter I mean active. 100ml of thin slurry in 1000-1500ml of about 10%, 1.040, oxygenated no stirl plate. Do that morning of brew day and pitch the whole thing that evening.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 15, 2018, 01:19:35 AM
I figure I'd have a handy supply of wort once I've brewed, and if 5 hours doesn't get it to high kräusen (that's usually the timing for my starters, though) I could wait a bit longer.  12°-13°P instead of 10°P would hardly matter, and no "foreign" wort.  It's just a plan I've had in mind as an alternative to a brand new starter, I think in principle we're on the same page.  I will probably try it whenever I let my yeast sit a while.  But darn it, I just keep brewing all the time!

EDIT I have 1st gen in fermenter now but not because of a hiatus.  The yeast in the jar (only a few generations in) had packed down, and a day later started releasing CO2 and rising up like a sponge.  Having never witnessed this behavior in my old friend 34/70, I didnt take my chances that something might be abnormal. (The beer I harvested it from seems fine, abundance of caution.) I almost used the method above with a smackpack, but realized I had just enough time to make a regular starter (O2, not stir) and settle it out before brewday. Old habit, good yeast, in kräusen in ~14 hours at 52°F.  Vital enough.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 15, 2018, 01:47:08 AM
Just admit it. You don't want to try it. It's ok. What works for you, works for you. That's cool

Edit: usually people try method X but with 9 different twists not suggested in method X, and then claim method X doesn't work. I rather someone just say "no, I'm not doing it" than change it up 6 ways from Sunday and claim it's BS
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 15, 2018, 01:56:53 AM
Just admit it. You don't want to try it. It's ok. What works for you, works for you. That's cool
It's not that I don't want to try, I just haven't seen the need for an extra step.  I should try and see if it makes any difference.  So:  One question, when you say 100ml slurry, do you mean vol of the thick slurry at the bottom, or the total volume when it's swirled up into, say, 50/50 thick slurry and liquid?  And second, do you see any real problem if I use my wort instead of a separate dme wort?  I'm really open to the idea.  Everything else I thought I knew seems to be wrong these days!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 15, 2018, 02:01:32 AM
Well, just think of how thick the 100ml slurry is in a smack pack.

No magic about 1.040, it's just what I do. I imagine anything up to 1.100 might work.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 15, 2018, 02:07:04 AM
Maybe splurge and grab a fresh pitch from the store and try it out.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 15, 2018, 02:29:36 AM
What I really like is options.  So I can say, what I usually do works, but isn't necessary, and on any given day, circumstances might favor one of a number of approaches.  Whatever gets the result.  As of tonight, I have a new quick and dirty default -- don't rinse, just pitch the slurry -- and this  vitality method, still simpler than either rinsing or a make-ahead starter. Great thing is I don't have to try either just to prove it to myself. I know you and Denny have done that.  I'll see what looks like the best option next brew (10 days.)  If there's a lot of trub in the slurry, like you said, that won't grow in a vitality starter!  But I doubt I'll keep doing the same old.

I've learned something today, my goal every day.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 15, 2018, 02:49:10 AM
What I really like is options.  So I can say, what I usually do works, but isn't necessary, and on any given day, circumstances might favor one of a number of approaches.  Whatever gets the result.  As of tonight, I have a new quick and dirty default -- don't rinse, just pitch the slurry -- and this  vitality method, still simpler than either rinsing or a make-ahead starter. Great thing is I don't have to try either just to prove it to myself. I know you and Denny have done that.  I'll see what looks like the best option next brew (10 days.)  If there's a lot of trub in the slurry, like you said, that won't grow in a vitality starter!  But I doubt I'll keep doing the same old.

I've learned something today, my goal every day.
Sweet! For me, seeing others get "success" from an SNS or oxygenated or vitality starter is kind of validation that I'm not an outlier. But if it only worked for me, I'd keep doing it.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: jimmykx250 on March 15, 2018, 09:25:51 AM
What I really like is options.  So I can say, what I usually do works, but isn't necessary, and on any given day, circumstances might favor one of a number of approaches.  Whatever gets the result.  As of tonight, I have a new quick and dirty default -- don't rinse, just pitch the slurry -- and this  vitality method, still simpler than either rinsing or a make-ahead starter. Great thing is I don't have to try either just to prove it to myself. I know you and Denny have done that.  I'll see what looks like the best option next brew (10 days.)  If there's a lot of trub in the slurry, like you said, that won't grow in a vitality starter!  But I doubt I'll keep doing the same old.

I've learned something today, my goal every day.
Sweet! For me, seeing others get "success" from an SNS or oxygenated or vitality starter is kind of validation that I'm not an outlier. But if it only worked for me, I'd keep doing it.

I have several mason jars of slurry in the fridge. If they are older then a month then i do a vitality just to make sure.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 07:50:08 PM
What I really like is options.  So I can say, what I usually do works, but isn't necessary, and on any given day, circumstances might favor one of a number of approaches.  Whatever gets the result.  As of tonight, I have a new quick and dirty default -- don't rinse, just pitch the slurry -- and this  vitality method, still simpler than either rinsing or a make-ahead starter. Great thing is I don't have to try either just to prove it to myself. I know you and Denny have done that.  I'll see what looks like the best option next brew (10 days.)  If there's a lot of trub in the slurry, like you said, that won't grow in a vitality starter!  But I doubt I'll keep doing the same old.

I've learned something today, my goal every day.
Sweet! For me, seeing others get "success" from an SNS or oxygenated or vitality starter is kind of validation that I'm not an outlier. But if it only worked for me, I'd keep doing it.
Hey, Jim!  You've probably addressed this before, but do you use more slurry/smackers in your 1-1.5L vitality starter for lagers?  I'm guessing by the results in your big ales it wouldn't be necessary?
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 08:18:26 PM
What I really like is options.  So I can say, what I usually do works, but isn't necessary, and on any given day, circumstances might favor one of a number of approaches.  Whatever gets the result.  As of tonight, I have a new quick and dirty default -- don't rinse, just pitch the slurry -- and this  vitality method, still simpler than either rinsing or a make-ahead starter. Great thing is I don't have to try either just to prove it to myself. I know you and Denny have done that.  I'll see what looks like the best option next brew (10 days.)  If there's a lot of trub in the slurry, like you said, that won't grow in a vitality starter!  But I doubt I'll keep doing the same old.

I've learned something today, my goal every day.
Sweet! For me, seeing others get "success" from an SNS or oxygenated or vitality starter is kind of validation that I'm not an outlier. But if it only worked for me, I'd keep doing it.
Hey, Jim!  You've probably addressed this before, but do you use more slurry/smackers in your 1-1.5L vitality starter for lagers?  I'm guessing by the results in your big ales it wouldn't be necessary?
Nope, 1 smack pack
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: blatz on March 16, 2018, 08:25:15 PM
By vitality starter I mean active. 100ml of thin slurry in 1000-1500ml of about 10%, 1.040, oxygenated no stirl plate. Do that morning of brew day and pitch the whole thing that evening.

why not just make it even easier and use the native wort, i.e. the wort you're brewing. I've been doing similar to what you do, just with the actual wort.  during the runoff, divert 1-1.5l into a sanitized flask along with the measured yeast slurry, cover with foil, set in the fridge next to the main wort, swirl whenever i think of it.  usually within 2-4 hours, its reaching krausen (usually when i swirl and it starts to erupt lol), so i then dump that into the main wort, aerate per usual.  voila.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 08:27:46 PM
Cool. It's not been boiled?

It's not much trouble for me to make starters because once a year I can up enough 1.040 to last me a year.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 08:30:11 PM
Thanks, Jim! 
Blatz,  if you look up in the thread, that's my idea more or less.  Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.)  I think it's simpler, but also I don't want a liter of "foreign" wort in a light lager.  In Jim's big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: blatz on March 16, 2018, 08:34:36 PM
Cool. It's not been boiled?

not it has, I might not have communicated well in my previous post.  Make your wort as you usually would.  Chill.  While running off, divert some of the wort to a flask as noted, etc.

only negative (for some) is that they like to be done-done-done with the batch once they complete their run off.  I don't mind this method, and I prefer to be dumping the actual batch into itself, rather than unhopped starter wort.  it also gives me time to let the main wort settle and I can dump out the bottom any settled trub that made it through.  I also start very early in the morning, so its usually pitching time mid afternoon, which isn't a problem for me.

Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: blatz on March 16, 2018, 08:35:20 PM
Thanks, Jim! 
Blatz,  if you look up in the thread, that's my idea more or less.  Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.)  I think it's simpler, but also I don't want a liter of "foreign" wort in a light lager.  In Jim's big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.

sorry I didn't follow that was what you were doing.  its a really good method for me and my timing/process as you mention.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 08:42:05 PM
Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I'm convinced it's not a concern. But, maybe using original beer wort would make it a 43?

Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it's active when you pitch it to the main beer.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 08:44:24 PM
Thanks, Jim! 
Blatz,  if you look up in the thread, that's my idea more or less.  Use some of my chilled wort while the fermenter cools the rest of the way to pitch temp (4-5 hours.)  I think it's simpler, but also I don't want a liter of "foreign" wort in a light lager.  In Jim's big stouts and barley wines, not a concern.

sorry I didn't follow that was what you were doing.  its a really good method for me and my timing/process as you mention.
I'm all good with that, no doubt it works awesome. I'm lazy and impatient.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 09:25:11 PM
Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I'm convinced it's not a concern.

Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it's active when you pitch it to the main beer.

That temp part is the one thing I'm still thinking over.  Normally when I repitch, the yeast is colder as it's been in the fermentation fridge near freezing as the fermenter makes it from ~60°F (wort chiller) to 50°F (pitch.)  That seems too cold to get it active, as would be the lagering freezer (29°F) or keezer (38°-40°F.)  Room temp it would get active, then be knocked out at pitching.  I still have some things to work out before this is a sure option for me, till then I'll repitch 3-4 day old slurry.  But Denny' s convinced me not to bother rinsing. 

One thing I like about the vitality idea for a lager is, it is in principle a lot like Darauflassen.  Same goal, keeping yeast in the growth phase as long as possible, and similar method.   Just that the two worts are in different proportions.

EDIT Other thing I don't like about foreign wort, not that it's foreign, I just don't want to bother making a separate dme wort.  I'm not a guy who cans a year's worth of it, because I only make a starter once a year or so!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 09:36:50 PM
Not sure what all the worry about foreign wort is. If I can get a 42 from 3 grand master judges on a Munich Helles using foreign wort, I'm convinced it's not a concern.

Just make sure your starter wort is at or below target fermentation temp before you add your oxygen and yeast, and that it's active when you pitch it to the main beer.

That temp part is the one thing I'm still thinking over.  Normally when I repitch, the yeast is colder as it's been in the fermentation fridge near freezing as the fermenter makes it from ~60°F (wort chiller) to 50°F (pitch.)  That seems too cold to get it active, as would be the lagering freezer (29°F) or keezer (38°-40°F.)  Room temp it would get active, then be knocked out at pitching.  I still have some things to work out before this is a sure option for me, till then I'll repitch 3-4 day old slurry.  But Denny' s convinced me not to bother rinsing. 

One thing I like about the vitality idea for a lager is, it is in principle a lot like Darauflassen.  Same goal, keeping yeast in the growth phase as long as possible, and similar method.   Just that the two worts are in different proportions.
With lagers, I take my jar of canned 1.040 and put it in the fermentation chamber at 50F the night before brew day. Morning of brew day I oxygenate the starter and pitch my smack pack, leave it in the 50F fermentation chamber while I brew. Lager starters are always active at about 10-12 hrs. I think that slight extra time is largely due to the cooler wort having ability to retain co2 better. Meaning, it's probably active just as soon as an ale pitch, but harder to see that activity.

I do this because I feel that once yeast is active temperature becomes more important. I don't like the idea of dumping a 70F little starter of active yeast into full batch of beer wort that is 20° colder. I don't want to shock it.

I have been doing this method for about 4 years, ales from 1.045 to 1.110, and lagers from 1.045 to 1.070. All with the same results. Initially,  with lagers I would use two starters out of fear of not having enough yeast. But I quickly learned that was unnecessary.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 09:46:10 PM
Yep, I just have to find a 50°F spot.  I'm not gonna get a mini fridge just to do this!  Seemed so simple, now maybe not.  I may have already optimized my procedures for my brewery. 
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 09:51:18 PM
How do you control fermentation temp?
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 10:06:59 PM
How do you control fermentation temp?
Good old Johnson Controls thermostatic controller (switches power on and off to the fridge, which you keep at its coldest setting.) Got one on each freezer and fridge;  if you saw the pics of my Speidel you can see the probe on the right side.  So I control ambient temp. The controller allows a 4 degree swing because the temperature of liquid, with higher thermal mass, is slow to change; this keeps the temp in the fermenter (keg, etc.) perfectly steady without short cycling the compressor.  I just bypass the controller (unplug it) to crash the wort to pitch temp or to crash the post ferment beer.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oEaZ0Jw9_2pDzMyyEuJHtr4ddhrmWpEk/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 10:11:08 PM
Why not set your starter in that? Not sure why you'd need a separate fridge. I might be misunderstanding somethinh
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 10:21:05 PM
Why not set your starter in that? Not sure why you'd need a separate fridge. I might be misunderstanding somethinh
Yeah, it's set super cold to get down to pitching temp.  AFTER I pitch, I set it to an ambient temp of 46°F, which holds the fermenting beer to 54°F.  So before pitching I've got 3 very cold chambers.  4 if you count the one in the kitchen.  If i held the fermenter at 50°F, the wort would take maybe 12+  hours to reach pitch temp.  And that's nearly when it it would be already very actively fermenting normally!  So for me, for a lager, like I said I might have already optimized things.  In fact, after all these years, I'd like to think things have evolved in sensible, organic fashion!  Sometimes I can't answer why I do things, and then after thinking about it, I realize there is a coherent reason.   It all ties together.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 10:32:46 PM
Hey, are we making another unfounded assumption that pitching an active starter into say 20°F colder wort will knock it out cold?  Somebody must know.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 10:32:48 PM
Ah! I chill to pitching temp with my chiller.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 10:34:22 PM
Ah! I chill to pitching temp with my chiller.

I can't get the last 10-12 degrees for lager.  Just to 60 °F or a little above, seasonally dependant, with the chiller. Ale I'd be good.

See my last question?
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 10:38:11 PM
Hey, are we making another unfounded assumption that pitching an active starter into say 20°F colder wort will knock it out cold?  Somebody must know.
I've not tried it. It's info I've picked up from Mark (S. Cerevisiae on AHA) and various other sources like Chris White, Gregg Doss, Zainasheff, Palmer, etc.

Obviously the 20F drop won't kill them. It might-probably could slow their activity and likely extend your lag time. Try it. Might be fine.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 10:51:17 PM
Conventional wisdom. If the purpose of the method is to shorten lag (at least in part) what I'm thinking is you wash out your advantage.  But it was some of those same sources that convinced me I had to rinse yeast, or tried to tell me I could only repitch lager yeast 3-5 times (ha!) So I'm waiting for somebody around here to pop another bubble.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 11:03:55 PM
I don't do what I do soley based on an appeal to authority. There are several things, for example, Zainasheff has said that just didn't hold up in my brewery. One would be the claim that cold crashing increases esters 30%. Not in my brewery, at least.

My test is usually
1. Does it make sense?
2. Will it improve my beer?
3. Is it easier, or at least worth the extra effort?
4. Does it actually work for me?

In my current total brewery, the most complicated, effort intense thing I do is closed transfer. So pretty easy brewery
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 16, 2018, 11:11:17 PM
I sometimes ask myself if I've evolved things to be easier, or if they seem easier because I keep doing them.  It's often the same difference.  You keep learning what to prioritize and what is unnecessary.  My new closed transfer technique is even simpler than the old messy way!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 16, 2018, 11:19:27 PM
My closed transfer is pretty easy, but still the most complicated thing I do.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 17, 2018, 12:01:47 AM
To go full circle with the thread... Another one of those conventional wisdom things that I have tried a few times in a few different ways is the idea that beer improves with subsequent repitches. There is a plethora of anecdotal evidence that it's true, including from a pile of authorities. I just haven't seen it bear fruit in my brewery. It's no better no worse. So the extra effort, to me, is not worth it. Clearly my one data point of failure is not a reason to toss it. But it's why I don't do it.

Another conventional wisdom is that with huge beers you need a metric butt load of yeast. They might, I dont.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 17, 2018, 12:19:26 AM
And we're back to the familiar conclusion, do what works for you!  And what we call extra effort may vary.   For me whether or not it improves performace, easy is: hey, I've got all this yeast cake,  why do one more thing.  So, full circle to the OP,  pitch a jar and see what happens.  Or make a starter from one and see what happens. Or don't.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 17, 2018, 12:25:38 AM
Ta da!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: denny on March 17, 2018, 04:08:22 PM
I don't do what I do soley based on an appeal to authority. There are several things, for example, Zainasheff has said that just didn't hold up in my brewery. One would be the claim that cold crashing increases esters 30%. Not in my brewery, at least.

My test is usually
1. Does it make sense?
2. Will it improve my beer?
3. Is it easier, or at least worth the extra effort?
4. Does it actually work for me?

In my current total brewery, the most complicated, effort intense thing I do is closed transfer. So pretty easy brewery

You are the heir to my legacy....;)
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: FermentedCulture on March 17, 2018, 05:16:10 PM
In one study I read, repitching of yeast increases esters up to a certain point then it decreases again (around pitch 5-7). As an anecdotal point I think I remember John Kimmich saying Conan reaches a peak around that point in the pitching rates. Not a lot has been written about why but I think one possibility might be the ratio of scarring on yeast cells/age of yeast.

Most of the time the reason stated for not pitching yeast at a big temperature difference of the wort is that the yeast will make heat shock proteins, I've not seen a lot of information about this and I think even Chris White says there's not a lot of information about how that effects the flavour. The only real thing I've seen about them is a recent study about the creation of glycerol, but iirc this was at the high end, like 40-45°C.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 18, 2018, 03:40:02 AM
I don't do what I do soley based on an appeal to authority. There are several things, for example, Zainasheff has said that just didn't hold up in my brewery. One would be the claim that cold crashing increases esters 30%. Not in my brewery, at least.

My test is usually
1. Does it make sense?
2. Will it improve my beer?
3. Is it easier, or at least worth the extra effort?
4. Does it actually work for me?

In my current total brewery, the most complicated, effort intense thing I do is closed transfer. So pretty easy brewery

You are the heir to my legacy....;)
That would be a huge honor, but let's out live the need for it
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 19, 2018, 08:50:38 PM
I like the thought process, Jim, but I have to ask - with the first question, there are a lot of assumptions, no?

So, I like the "questioning the conventional wisdom approach and checking it out for yourself" - and then applying your steps...I would note that while my process has evolved significantly over time, I do tend to ultimately apply a cost/benefit analysis in the end, so I have some very obsolete brewery items that no longer get used.

Great discussion and thanks for sharing with us - I use the vitality starter SNS style quite regularly, but if I am racking an earlier batch from primary on a brew day, I am not opposed to a straight re-pitch.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 19, 2018, 09:07:03 PM
I like the thought process, Jim, but I have to ask - with the first question, there are a lot of assumptions, no?

So, I like the "questioning the conventional wisdom approach and checking it out for yourself" - and then applying your steps...I would note that while my process has evolved significantly over time, I do tend to ultimately apply a cost/benefit analysis in the end, so I have some very obsolete brewery items that no longer get used.

Great discussion and thanks for sharing with us - I use the vitality starter SNS style quite regularly, but if I am racking an earlier batch from primary on a brew day, I am not opposed to a straight re-pitch.
Example: The double mash, at first blush did not make sense to me, but after an explanation of how it works it made enough sense for me to at least try it. It didn't take long for it to pass the rest of my tests
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 19, 2018, 09:37:11 PM
Yeah, the double mash is on my to do list.  I am not an IPA guy, so likely a barley wine or dopplebock to give that a try.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Robert on March 30, 2018, 12:21:09 AM
Well, I stand fully corrected.  Old standard practice not in line with current knowledge.  Not only is my unrinsed yeast very happy, Denny was not quite right in saying rinsing has no benefit.  It is beyond that.  I've done some further reading, and rinsing or storage under water is in fact bad for yeast, in current and future generations, as is any aeration prior to the time of repitching.  So storing under beer and just directly repitching and oxygenating wort is not only easiest, it's best practice.  TBM 4.4.4.3 offers a summary.  I'm happy to skip extra effort.
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on March 30, 2018, 01:04:08 AM
Ta-da!
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: Andor on March 30, 2018, 03:52:49 PM
Another option to harvesting from fermenter is to harvest from the starter. For yesterday's brew I made a liter sns starter late the night before. When it came time to pitch I shook it up to get it as homogenous as possible and  poured 100ml into another starter. (100ml was just a guess, ive never did this before)The second starter was fermenting happily this morning. When I'm ready to brew I'll take the starter out of the refrigerator decant and repeat the process as if it was a new smack pack. Thats the plan anyway
Title: Re: Using harvested yeast
Post by: knut on April 05, 2018, 01:36:39 AM
About the only time I wash yeast is when I go from a big rye IPA (or similar) to a light beer of one sort or the other. That, and I usually avoid harvesting yeast from 8% + beer, though I don't know how critical that is. I much prefer to make a little extra yeast from whatever clean batch I start with, and just grow it from there. Though best laid plans...