Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2018, 01:12:41 AM

Title: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2018, 01:12:41 AM
If you hadn't seen it already, there is an interesting article in the March/April 2018 issue of Zymurgy discussing results of DNA testing of 96 assorted strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae.

As a science nut, I was deeply captivated by the article, and went ahead and pulled up the source paper for full details.  I then proceeded to spend probably about 20 hours reviewing everything line by line in an attempt to blend (1) the official scientific results with (2) my own personal (flawed?) knowledge and intuition in order to come up with some additional conclusions and hypotheses, which I will admit are probably not 100% correct, but which people might find interesting nonetheless as food for thought and discussion.

So I thought I might share.  Feel free to rip this stuff to shreds.  But I think it's pretty dang interesting to think about.  My own personal summary of the whole thing based on my own interests, experience, and intuition:

A) All beer yeast as we know it today has been in existence for only 400 years.
B) As such, prior to 1600, beers were likely entirely different than we experience today.
C) At least 9 "lager" strains out there are actually Sachharomyces cerevisiae ("ale" yeast).
D) Wyeast 1007/WLP036 is derived from bread yeast, explaining its vigor and bready character.
E) The smaller Beer 2 clave has a tendency for high attenution as it can eat maltotriose.
F) One abbey strain is a cousin of the Beer 2 clave, totally unrelated from all other beer yeasts since <1600.
G) One abbey strain originated from wine yeast.
H) 3 abbey strains are actually English in origin, while 3 remaining are distinctly Belgian.
I)  2 Belgian abbey strains and 1 English-derived abbey strain are unable to produce any clove.
J)  Duvel yeast WLP570/1388 is confirmed to be a daughter of McEwan's WLP028/1728.

Go ahead.  Think about the stuff.  See if it makes any sense to you.  Provide your own thoughts.  Have fun with it.

Link to the source paper, FYI:

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2016.08.020
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: rburrelli on March 22, 2018, 04:50:38 PM
I too read the article and found it quite enlightening, but did not delve into it as you did. Just looking at the diagram and figuring out what was what was hard enough. But from what I read, I think your insights are pretty accurate.

It is one of those articles where you have to do a few readings to absorb. Will definitely do that.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2018, 06:44:06 PM
OMG.... Somebody on HBT pointed me to the friggin holy grail.  I'm going to compare notes tonight or this weekend and report back.  Apparently there is one out there much more geeky than I!

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=3919

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/zymurgy-march-april-2018-the-origin-of-ale-yeast-species-dna-testing.647413/#post-8256449
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Robert on March 23, 2018, 01:17:30 AM
Dave, I don't have the ability to digest this the way you do, but it is fascinating. Thanks for the additional links.  I'd be interested, personally, in any insight into the W-34/70 lager yeast I (and millions) love.  What makes it happy to ferment from -1°C to 20°C+, and so fast and clean at any temperature? What is this stuff, really?  Runs so much colder and more neutral than ale yeasts, so much faster and warmer  than other lager yeasts...it's a freak.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: dmtaylor on March 23, 2018, 03:57:51 AM
Dave, I don't have the ability to digest this the way you do, but it is fascinating. Thanks for the additional links.  I'd be interested, personally, in any insight into the W-34/70 lager yeast I (and millions) love.  What makes it happy to ferment from -1°C to 20°C+, and so fast and clean at any temperature? What is this stuff, really?  Runs so much colder and more neutral than ale yeasts, so much faster and warmer  than other lager yeasts...it's a freak.

That's one that I don't know much about, and that this recent study did not touch.  One thing I do know -- I don't like it, at least not compared with Wyeast 2206 which along with WLP830 or 833 might be the only three I think I'll use from now on.  Glad it works for you though.  I'm going to stick with liquid and huge pitches.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: klickitat jim on March 23, 2018, 04:50:37 AM
Dave, I don't have the ability to digest this the way you do, but it is fascinating. Thanks for the additional links.  I'd be interested, personally, in any insight into the W-34/70 lager yeast I (and millions) love.  What makes it happy to ferment from -1°C to 20°C+, and so fast and clean at any temperature? What is this stuff, really?  Runs so much colder and more neutral than ale yeasts, so much faster and warmer  than other lager yeasts...it's a freak.

That's one that I don't know much about, and that this recent study did not touch.  One thing I do know -- I don't like it, at least not compared with Wyeast 2206 which along with WLP830 or 833 might be the only three I think I'll use from now on.  Glad it works for you though.  I'm going to stick with liquid and huge pitches.
2206 is my lager jam too.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Robert on March 23, 2018, 12:11:09 PM
Dave, I don't have the ability to digest this the way you do, but it is fascinating. Thanks for the additional links.  I'd be interested, personally, in any insight into the W-34/70 lager yeast I (and millions) love.  What makes it happy to ferment from -1°C to 20°C+, and so fast and clean at any temperature? What is this stuff, really?  Runs so much colder and more neutral than ale yeasts, so much faster and warmer  than other lager yeasts...it's a freak.

That's one that I don't know much about, and that this recent study did not touch.  One thing I do know -- I don't like it, at least not compared with Wyeast 2206 which along with WLP830 or 833 might be the only three I think I'll use from now on.  Glad it works for you though.  I'm going to stick with liquid and huge pitches.
Liquid and huge, cool.  If you mean you don't like the DRY so-called W-34/70, well I have no idea what that is.  Like many users of the "real" Weihenstephan strain, I find it bears no resemblance.  Don't know if other dry yeasts end up so radically different from their liquid sources.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: dmtaylor on March 23, 2018, 12:23:23 PM
Dave, I don't have the ability to digest this the way you do, but it is fascinating. Thanks for the additional links.  I'd be interested, personally, in any insight into the W-34/70 lager yeast I (and millions) love.  What makes it happy to ferment from -1°C to 20°C+, and so fast and clean at any temperature? What is this stuff, really?  Runs so much colder and more neutral than ale yeasts, so much faster and warmer  than other lager yeasts...it's a freak.

That's one that I don't know much about, and that this recent study did not touch.  One thing I do know -- I don't like it, at least not compared with Wyeast 2206 which along with WLP830 or 833 might be the only three I think I'll use from now on.  Glad it works for you though.  I'm going to stick with liquid and huge pitches.
Liquid and huge, cool.  If you mean you don't like the DRY so-called W-34/70, well I have no idea what that is.  Like many users of the "real" Weihenstephan strain, I find it bears no resemblance.  Don't know if other dry yeasts end up so radically different from their liquid sources.

Oh yeah, I was talking about the dry version that is actually called W-34/70.  But WLP830 is supposedly the same stuff and is far superior.  It does indeed seem to lose something in the drying process.  I should be more clear in future when talking about "W-34/70" because it can mean different things to different folks.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Robert on March 23, 2018, 12:59:53 PM
It's also WY2124 and Imperial Global. Those liquids are interchangeable IME,  all good cultures of 34/70. I usually use Wyeast when I need a new pitch just because it's generally the best mover at LHBS. But the mystery of drying remains.  Anybody have experience of big changes in other, maybe ale, strains  between liquid source and dry?
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: a10t2 on March 23, 2018, 03:57:44 PM
Anybody have experience of big changes in other, maybe ale, strains  between liquid source and dry?

Nottingham comes to mind. The Danstar dry product leaves behind acetaldehyde that I haven't experienced with the Wyeast version.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: 802Chris on March 23, 2018, 04:36:11 PM
Really interesting stuff Dave, thanks!

Does anyone know if the liquid versions of (Dry)34/70 are as tolerant of temperature ranges as the dry version? The only reason I use it is because I am lazy and impatient and I usually run it at slightly lower than ale temps. If I can get better performance out of a liquid strain and keep the same fermentation schedule I would be open to it.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Robert on March 23, 2018, 04:54:55 PM
Really interesting stuff Dave, thanks!

Does anyone know if the liquid versions of (Dry)34/70 are as tolerant of temperature ranges as the dry version? The only reason I use it is because I am lazy and impatient and I usually run it at slightly lower than ale temps. If I can get better performance out of a liquid strain and keep the same fermentation schedule I would be open to it.
Actually I think the real thing is more temperature tolerant if anything.  It is not so sluggish as the dry imposter either.  Though you seem to find the dry not to be slow starting. I pitch at about 10°C/50°F, hold ambient at about 8°C/46°F so ferment is held to max of 12°C/54°F, and I have no more than 12 hour lag and it finishes in 7 days.  I can even crash cool it with some fermentables left and it will finish at -1°C/30°F without missing a beat. Others say they can run it at ale temps without losing lager character, but I haven't tried that.

  BTW to quell confusion about nomenclature, W-34/70 is the designation assigned by Weihenstephan, where Prof Narziss developed it.  Fermentis is just the only one to label it using that name, ironic as it seems so different from the source. As the most widely used beer yeast in the world, brewers usually refer to it as W-34/70 regardless of supplier; there seems to be no difference between all the liquid sources.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: dmtaylor on March 23, 2018, 07:05:39 PM
I believe experiments are in order for using ALL "lager" yeasts at warm ale temps... especially since so many of them are actually ale yeasts anyway!!  I'll bet most of them can be used warm with few if any ill effects.  If I recall correctly, W-34/70 (or WLP830 or 2124) by DNA is actually a true lager yeast, S. pastorianus.  But of course, that fact shouldn't prevent us from playing around with it at warm temps, especially given Brulosophy's semi-rigorous tests of the dry version showing that maybe it isn't affected by high temps as much as people used to think.  I think there may be an awful lot of lager yeasts that will perform splendidly at warm temps.  We just haven't all played with them enough yet to know the truth.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Aksarben on April 09, 2018, 01:47:27 PM
I ferment Lagers at warmer temps.  I have even dabbled in cross breeding of ale/lager yeast.  I have fermented Munich Dunkel with a mixture of Saflager S-23, S-189 and a Norwegian ale yeast KNOWN to ferment at very high temps, Omega Voss Kveik.  I think they have fermented beer with Voss Kviek at 104F with ill effects. https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/581646/jenewein-s-mnchen-dunkel-4-gal-batch

Batch came out pretty good at around 75 degrees F fermentation.  I collected yeast at the end and in my refrigerator and used it to start another Munich Dunkel lager and went very well.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 09, 2018, 06:00:43 PM
I ferment Lagers at warmer temps.  I have even dabbled in cross breeding of ale/lager yeast.  I have fermented Munich Dunkel with a mixture of Saflager S-23, S-189 and a Norwegian ale yeast KNOWN to ferment at very high temps, Omega Voss Kveik.  I think they have fermented beer with Voss Kviek at 104F with ill effects. https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/581646/jenewein-s-mnchen-dunkel-4-gal-batch

Batch came out pretty good at around 75 degrees F fermentation.  I collected yeast at the end and in my refrigerator and used it to start another Munich Dunkel lager and went very well.

.

Interesting to hear.  But mixing yeasts in a fermenter is not actually cross-breeding is it?  They reproduce by budding, so isn’t the most aggressive/tolerant yeast simply going to outcompete the others?  I am not a microbiologist by any stretch (though my daughter is, so I have something to ask her about.). Like I said it is still very interesting to hear about.
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Aksarben on April 09, 2018, 07:38:03 PM
Yes, they are asexual "budding" organisms, and just hoping for the best.  I know they have crossed, even in nature, as the Lager strains are Saccharomyces cerevisiae  x Saccharomyces eubayanus giving you Saccharomyces pastorianus, the hybrid.  However, it's an uphill battle since hybrid yeasts are sterile and are pretty much all budding or asexual yeasts.   We'll see.   The crossing happens when they become stressed enough.    Perhaps the Voss Kviek with it's ale properties, but able to ferment cleanly at higher temps will be the one to receive the genetic material need from the lager yeasts.
   
Also this link:  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-make-the-first-new-lager-yeasts-in-centuries/
Title: Re: Zymurgy March/April 2018 - The Origin of Ale Yeast Species (DNA Testing)
Post by: Robert on April 09, 2018, 10:26:03 PM
Very interesting link, Aksarben. At first not sure why you wouldn't just use Belgian ale yeast to get 4 VG, but of course this is just a proof of concept, more useful traits can now be bred.