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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: yso191 on March 29, 2018, 05:14:39 AM

Title: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on March 29, 2018, 05:14:39 AM
I am going to do a Czech Pale Premium Lager next.  I follow Mark's strategy of using a large vessel to shake the wort/yeast and then pitch the lot into the fermenter ~6 hours later.

What is the thinking with lagers?  My thought is to step it up with 4 iterations, i.e.: pitch a pack of yeast into a quart of wort, wait till it is finished fermenting that, decant and go again, timing the last for brew day.

Am I missing anything?  What do you do?
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Stevie on March 29, 2018, 07:41:20 AM
If the yeast is fresh, do it once. There is a maximum density of yeast in a given volume. You’d just continually maintain that count.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: HydraulicSammich on March 29, 2018, 12:54:53 PM
Would you need to pitch twice as much yeast, two packs, in the shaken quart? In keeping with the twice as much yeast thought for a lager.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Stevie on March 29, 2018, 01:11:56 PM
Adding more yeast won’t change the fact that the starter will hit max density and start fermenting, it will just happen sooner in the starter.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on March 29, 2018, 02:05:40 PM
If the yeast is fresh, do it once. There is a maximum density of yeast in a given volume. You’d just continually maintain that count.

Interesting.  I may need to abandon this method for the old 5 liter Erlenmeyer on a stir plate to get the cell count I want.
Title: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Stevie on March 29, 2018, 02:15:26 PM
That’s cool man. You don’t need to make a massive starter, but do what you need to do.

Jim, do any lagers lately?
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: HydraulicSammich on March 29, 2018, 04:29:53 PM
Do I understand then, one yeast pack shaken starter, will reach the desired density in the wort with plenty of time to properly ferment?
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Stevie on March 29, 2018, 04:40:53 PM
It’s worked for me and others. The idea is to pitch when the yeast is in exponential growth. Underpitch by half and the issue is gone in 90min, under pitch by 4 and your are good at 3 hours.

I’m sure I’ll be corrected, but pitch rates are from slurry with no starter for commercial breweries that are simply pumping yeast from a brink.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on March 29, 2018, 07:07:33 PM
That’s cool man. You don’t need to make a massive starter, but do what you need to do.

Jim, do any lagers lately?
For 6gal lager or ales or high gravity ales, i use 1 smack pack on 1200ml oxygenated starter made morning of brew day, run at main beer pitching temp, pitch the whole thing that night. Massive ales get extra oxygen. I used to use two starters for lagers but found it's not necessary.

I use oxygen for starters and the beer.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on March 29, 2018, 08:51:06 PM
Thanks Jim
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on March 29, 2018, 10:51:14 PM
Welcome. When I do lagers I chill my canned 1.040 in my fermentor chest to 50F the night before. So on brew day the yeast goes from fridge to 50F starter to 50F main beer. At about 50% ADF I pull the temp probe from the beer to ambient and bump the chest temp to 68F. Letting the beer free rise to 68 ambient. This works reliably for me.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on March 30, 2018, 12:24:25 AM
Welcome. When I do lagers I chill my canned 1.040 in my fermentor chest to 50F the night before. So on brew day the yeast goes from fridge to 50F starter to 50F main beer. At about 50% ADF I pull the temp probe from the beer to ambient and bump the chest temp to 68F. Letting the beer free rise to 68 ambient. This works reliably for me.

I do that exact thing for my ales.  I just don't do many lagers... and none since I started doing the 'shaken not stirred' method.  Now I just wish I could find some Wyeast 2001.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Robert on March 30, 2018, 12:38:29 AM
Welcome. When I do lagers I chill my canned 1.040 in my fermentor chest to 50F the night before. So on brew day the yeast goes from fridge to 50F starter to 50F main beer. At about 50% ADF I pull the temp probe from the beer to ambient and bump the chest temp to 68F. Letting the beer free rise to 68 ambient. This works reliably for me.

I do that exact thing for my ales.  I just don't do many lagers... and none since I started doing the 'shaken not stirred' method.  Now I just wish I could find some Wyeast 2001.
WLP800 is also Urquell H-strain, same as WY2001.  I think I recall LHBS said the Wyeast is either being discontinued or shifted to a specialty, not always available

EDIT Checked their site, it's now Private  Collection, the limited release line
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on March 30, 2018, 01:02:30 AM
2206 is pretty hard to beat, just sayin
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on March 30, 2018, 03:40:50 PM
2206 is pretty hard to beat, just sayin

What do you like about it?
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on March 30, 2018, 09:26:24 PM
Pretty much everything. Low/no sulphur, balanced profile, work horse, drops bright easy.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on March 30, 2018, 10:22:45 PM
Pretty much everything. Low/no sulphur, balanced profile, work horse, drops bright easy.

Sold!
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on March 30, 2018, 10:31:05 PM
I only do a couple lager brew days a year anymore. So I was looking for a quality all-around yeast, focusing on Bavarian styles but capable of doing well with pils and occasionally an American. I've tried several and finally landed on 2352. But it's a PC, so I learned to plate and slant, which was fun for a while. I kept hearing people sing praise about 2206 so I tried it and BOOM. I never looked back
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: MerlinWerks on April 03, 2018, 05:23:38 PM
FWIW, I believe Omega OYL-114 is supposed to be the Augustiner strain.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 28, 2018, 04:41:53 PM
Jim,  I'm wondering if my experience is typical to yours. 

I brewed the beer Thursday, 4/26/18.  Pitched yeast @ 21:30, at 50*.  One pack of Wyeast 2206, dated 3/31/18, in Shaken not Stirred method (one Qt. wort).  Which was started at ~12:00... maybe a bit late?
First airlock activity today (4/28) 09:00.   ~36 hours.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: a10t2 on April 28, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
I brewed the beer Thursday, 4/26/18.  Pitched yeast @ 21:30, at 50*.  One pack of Wyeast 2206, dated 3/31/18, in Shaken not Stirred method (one Qt. wort).  Which was started at ~12:00... maybe a bit late?
First airlock activity today (4/28) 09:00.   ~36 hours.

I don't like arguing from anecdote, but...

Severely expired (Aug '17) pack of 2206 in a 3 L starter, stirred for 36 hours, crashed for ~60 hours because I had to delay overnight while the wort cooled a few degrees. Brewed Monday, pitched Tuesday at 0900, 12°C, 1.45 M/mL-°P. Airlock was bubbling by 6 pm (<9 hours). As of this morning (96 hours since pitching) gravity has dropped from 17.4°P to 12.0°P, and I'll probably start bumping up the temperature tomorrow.

I didn't see anything about aeration there; I bubble through the wort for 10 min with an aquarium pump immediately before pitching.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Robert on April 28, 2018, 06:01:08 PM
I brewed the beer Thursday, 4/26/18.  Pitched yeast @ 21:30, at 50*.  One pack of Wyeast 2206, dated 3/31/18, in Shaken not Stirred method (one Qt. wort).  Which was started at ~12:00... maybe a bit late?
First airlock activity today (4/28) 09:00.   ~36 hours.

I don't like arguing from anecdote, but...

Severely expired (Aug '17) pack of 2206 in a 3 L starter, stirred for 36 hours, crashed for ~60 hours because I had to delay overnight while the wort cooled a few degrees. Brewed Monday, pitched Tuesday at 0900, 12°C, 1.45 M/mL-°P. Airlock was bubbling by 6 pm (<9 hours). As of this morning (96 hours since pitching) gravity has dropped from 17.4°P to 12.0°P, and I'll probably start bumping up the temperature tomorrow.

I didn't see anything about aeration there; I bubble through the wort for 10 min with an aquarium pump immediately before pitching.
I was wondering about 2206/Weihenstephan 206, I've always heard it's a slow one.  Using 2124/Weihenstephan 34/70, pitching at 10°C and oxygenating, I would think something was really wrong if lag time were not on the order of a10t2's (under 12 hours, it usually starts while I'm sleeping.)  Expect 3 1/2 days to ~1°P to go and time for temp rise.  Can I really expect a similar fermentation schedule with 206?  If so I ought to try it sometime.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 28, 2018, 06:20:01 PM
I didn't see anything about aeration there; I bubble through the wort for 10 min with an aquarium pump immediately before pitching.

Sorry, I forgot that.  60 seconds of pure O2 through a stone at the bottom of the conical fermenter.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: a10t2 on April 28, 2018, 06:59:54 PM
Expect 3 1/2 days to ~1°P to go and time for temp rise.  Can I really expect a similar fermentation schedule with 206?

Not *that* fast, IME. Even at high krausen I don't see a drop of more than 2-3°P/day. Roughly a week to FG depending on gravity and how aggressively I want to ramp it.

This was a little bit of a fast start too; 12-18 hours is more typical.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 29, 2018, 12:13:30 AM
Well crap.  The airlock activity didn't increase like it usually does, so I decided to run to the LHBS to get some dry yeast.  I'd concluded that I under-pitched dramatically. THEN... I see this:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/41051164044_41591b0399_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25xxWSq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/25xxWSq) by STEVE HARRISON (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156892621@N04/), on Flickr

I think I have my first infection

 :-\
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Stevie on April 29, 2018, 01:55:53 AM
That’s no good. I’ve had solid results even with lagers.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Robert on April 29, 2018, 02:04:17 AM
Well crap.  The airlock activity didn't increase like it usually does, so I decided to run to the LHBS to get some dry yeast.  I'd concluded that I under-pitched dramatically. THEN... I see this:
(http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy153/yso191/AHA/0C3D6A85-330B-423F-B273-34FCFDB0DD9E_zpsxaihmwrc.jpg)

I think I have my first infection

 :-\
Can't see pic
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 29, 2018, 02:20:16 AM
Great.  Apparently Photobucket now wants me to pay for the pleasure of sharing pictures. 
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 29, 2018, 02:45:59 AM
Thanks to Flickr it should work now.

I think two factors led to this. 

First was the length of time the warm wort was exposed to the air while it drained into the fermenter.  I will set yet one more hop/trub removal device on the shelf, the last in a line of failed devices.

Second, some time ago I posted that I was done with wet yeast for this very reason.  All the yeast I get here in Yakima is dead or mostly so.  I thought it would be OK ordering from More Beer in CA.  It is Spring so the temperatures are not extreme, and I paid for the most expensive insulated & cooled mailer.  How many times do I need to learn this lesson?!  So I will brew this again, but with DRY YEAST!
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Robert on April 29, 2018, 11:31:38 AM
  All the yeast I get here in Yakima is dead or mostly so.  I thought it would be OK ordering from More Beer in CA.  It is Spring so the temperatures are not extreme, and I paid for the most expensive insulated & cooled mailer.
That really sucks.  I get great, very fresh Wyeast here in Ohio (from LHBS,) and you are so close to the original source.  How do others out there (like Jim) get their yeast without this problem?  There must be a way.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: coolman26 on April 29, 2018, 01:47:38 PM
Thanks to Flickr it should work now.

I think two factors led to this. 

First was the length of time the warm wort was exposed to the air while it drained into the fermenter.  I will set yet one more hop/trub removal device on the shelf, the last in a line of failed devices.

Second, some time ago I posted that I was done with wet yeast for this very reason.  All the yeast I get here in Yakima is dead or mostly so.  I thought it would be OK ordering from More Beer in CA.  It is Spring so the temperatures are not extreme, and I paid for the most expensive insulated & cooled mailer.  How many times do I need to learn this lesson?!  So I will brew this again, but with DRY YEAST!
I never have fresh yeast on hand. That is why I’ve never tried the shaken. That said, I’ve never had any issue with getting yeast that was damaged in shipping.


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Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 29, 2018, 03:06:55 PM
Here's another thing that is a possibility.  I never used to have issues with yeast until I went with the shaken not stirred method.  But at that same time I decided I would can my starter wort.  I now find myself wondering if my starter wort is killing the yeast.

I cannot imagine how.  I use whole grain 1.040 wort, and pressure can it.  I don't add anything.

It's just a puzzle that I am trying to consider all possibilities for.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: denny on April 29, 2018, 04:53:00 PM
Here's another thing that is a possibility.  I never used to have issues with yeast until I went with the shaken not stirred method.  But at that same time I decided I would can my starter wort.  I now find myself wondering if my starter wort is killing the yeast.

I cannot imagine how.  I use whole grain 1.040 wort, and pressure can it.  I don't add anything.

It's just a puzzle that I am trying to consider all possibilities for.

Steve, the puzzle to me is how either of those would cause you problems when so many others do them without issue.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: a10t2 on April 29, 2018, 06:38:19 PM
I cannot imagine how.  I use whole grain 1.040 wort, and pressure can it.  I don't add anything.

Probably not likely, but it could be some kind of micronutrient deficiency. I use 1 g/gal yeast nutrient when I make wort for propagation.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on April 29, 2018, 11:28:23 PM
I agree Denny!

Yes I used to add yeast nutrient to my starters, but stopped when I began using starter wort.  Sounds like I have an experiment upcoming!
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: Robert on April 29, 2018, 11:45:23 PM
I use nutrient in starters and, generally, in the brew as well.  At the least, it's harmless, and cheap insurance.  My current line of experimentation is suggesting that cold break material is an even cheaper version of this.

The possibility of micronutrient deficiency leads me to another thought. Is it possible your liquid yeast was not delivered in poor condition,  but that the dry yeast was grown on a medium that ensured an adequate supply of the nutrient missing from your starter?  I'm thinking the reserve such a nutrient the liquid yeast brought with it could have been exhausted in the starter phase, with none carried into the ferment. (Zinc being the obvious prime suspect.)
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: JT on April 30, 2018, 02:26:38 AM
Well crap.  The airlock activity didn't increase like it usually does, so I decided to run to the LHBS to get some dry yeast.  I'd concluded that I under-pitched dramatically. THEN... I see this:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/41051164044_41591b0399_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25xxWSq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/25xxWSq) by STEVE HARRISON (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156892621@N04/), on Flickr

I think I have my first infection

 :-\
I see lots of replies to this, but what makes you think this is an infection?  I've had totally normal fermentation begin this way, and you described pitching in a different method than usual so the beginning ferment might look different.  I see no mold here.  What are you smelling?  Did you check pH?  I'm betting you get healthy krausen soon. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: denny on April 30, 2018, 02:32:23 PM
Well crap.  The airlock activity didn't increase like it usually does, so I decided to run to the LHBS to get some dry yeast.  I'd concluded that I under-pitched dramatically. THEN... I see this:

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/41051164044_41591b0399_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25xxWSq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/25xxWSq) by STEVE HARRISON (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156892621@N04/), on Flickr

I think I have my first infection

 :-\
I see lots of replies to this, but what makes you think this is an infection?  I've had totally normal fermentation begin this way, and you described pitching in a different method than usual so the beginning ferment might look different.  I see no mold here.  What are you smelling?  Did you check pH?  I'm betting you get healthy krausen soon. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

Agreed.  I don't think it looks like an infection necessarily.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: chumley on May 01, 2018, 10:40:20 PM
Yes, those look like yeast colonies to me.  I've seen that several times before.  Never been an infection.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on May 02, 2018, 01:19:40 AM
Jim,  I'm wondering if my experience is typical to yours. 

I brewed the beer Thursday, 4/26/18.  Pitched yeast @ 21:30, at 50*.  One pack of Wyeast 2206, dated 3/31/18, in Shaken not Stirred method (one Qt. wort).  Which was started at ~12:00... maybe a bit late?
First airlock activity today (4/28) 09:00.   ~36 hours.
My lager starters are about 10C cooler than my ale starters. So they are slower at showing sign of activity to the naked eye. Normally, I see activity in my ale starters at 6-8 hrs. 8-12 hrs for lagers. I see air lock activity, usually, with ales at about 24 hrs. But it could be well before that, I don't look every hour... I usually see airlock activity in my lagers by 36 hrs (Morning after 24 hrs) but...

First visible air lock activity is not the best method of determining end of Lag Phase. If your yeast are visibly active (off gassing co2) in your starter, the mothers have finished budding and are fermenting. Maybe some daughters are too. Some daughters are still budding. Bloop, into the main beer wort... more oxygen... more budding... basically "they" are immediately in Log Phase.

How long until they reach max density, and produce enough co2 to overcome retaining co2 at lower than ale temp, and create enough pressure to bubble your air lock? Dunno... But that's not the end of Lag Phase, start of Log Phase. They've been in Log Phase since you pitched the active starter.

By the way - air lock is not a good indicator of phases.

As to infection? I'm not seeing a pelicle, I'm seeing islands of white stuff that might be yeast rafts, or might be islands of foam, or might be... infection. Hard to say from just a photo

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Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on May 02, 2018, 01:46:33 AM
Thanks Jim,  You are far more familiar with this yeast than am I.  At this point I'm guessing it is not an infection... I just never see my beer coming out of a lag phase - it may be utterly normal.  The long lag phase and extra long time prior to pitching had me nervous.
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on May 02, 2018, 01:59:42 AM
That’s cool man. You don’t need to make a massive starter, but do what you need to do.

Jim, do any lagers lately?
Been a while. I might crank a couple out for summer.

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Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on May 02, 2018, 02:00:25 AM
Thanks Jim,  You are far more familiar with this yeast than am I.  At this point I'm guessing it is not an infection... I just never see my beer coming out of a lag phase - it may be utterly normal.  The long lag phase and extra long time prior to pitching had me nervous.
Let us know how it goes

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Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: yso191 on May 10, 2018, 04:41:30 AM
Whew!  I just took a sip from the hydrometer vial.  The beer is NOT infected.  It tastes delicious.  Obviously my inexperience of seeing beer come out of the lag phase freaked me out.  One of the down sides of a stainless fermenter.

I'm happy!
Title: Re: Shaken not stirred for Lager
Post by: klickitat jim on May 10, 2018, 04:52:44 AM
Good deal!