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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: theDarkSide on August 09, 2010, 03:45:40 PM

Title: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: theDarkSide on August 09, 2010, 03:45:40 PM
I planted 2 cascade and 2 centennial in a nice sunny spot, mounded hill to allow for runoff, water everyday sometime twice.  The height they have grown range from about 6 feet down to 3 feet ( funny because it goes left to right in height it kind of looks like those cellphone commercial with the bars ).

I actually have a few flowers on them but they never did climb to total length of the rope ( approx 13 feet ).  I've been trimming away the other bines that I didn't train up the trellis and there doesn't seem to be any damage from insects or disease.

We have had an unusually dry summer this year ( as my lawn is evidence of that ), but I've been watering everyday and fertilize on a regular schedule.

Is this somewhat normal, and should I see better results next year?  I know a lot of the first year growth is root structure, but I've seen a lot of postings on other forums where people said their 1st years hops grew 12+ feet.

Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: denny on August 09, 2010, 03:51:23 PM
Pretty normal for first year hops.  My first year, my Cascade plant yielded exactly 2 hop cones.  Last year, 10 years later, the same plant gave me 27 lb. before drying!
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 09, 2010, 03:58:43 PM
The first year they are putting the energy into the root system.  Your list of things done are all good.  As Denny said, next year and after you will get plenty.

You did not say much aobut your soil, but they like nitrogen a lot, especially when the cones are on.  My soil is a beach sand gravel type, and I need to add some potassium and phosphorus too.  Sierra Nevada says that 3-1-1 fertilizer is what they use.

Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: theDarkSide on August 09, 2010, 04:04:31 PM
I actually have about 30 cones...I know, not much but exciting still.  I will look forward to next year and will do better at soil maintenance.

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 09, 2010, 06:11:21 PM
I think it was probably a mistake to trim the bines you hadn't trained - I usually let mine go wild the first year to maximize the health of the rhizome.  If you cut off the new bines then the rhizome is wasting energy sending them up and not getting any return.  After the first year when you are trying to maximize output that's different.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: theDarkSide on August 09, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
I think it was probably a mistake to trim the bines you hadn't trained - I usually let mine go wild the first year to maximize the health of the rhizome.  If you cut off the new bines then the rhizome is wasting energy sending them up and not getting any return.  After the first year when you are trying to maximize output that's different.

oops.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 09, 2010, 06:33:03 PM
I'm sure they'll be fine, it's really not that big of a deal.  Nothing catastrophic.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: Mark G on August 09, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
My first year hops are all 6-8 feet. I'm not expecting much this year. I also discovered that Japanese Beetles have an affinity for Goldings, but haven't touched anything else. So I'll keep the Goldings going every year just as a sacrifice to the beer gods so my others are left alone.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: saintpierre on August 09, 2010, 07:28:53 PM
I think it was probably a mistake to trim the bines you hadn't trained - I usually let mine go wild the first year to maximize the health of the rhizome.  If you cut off the new bines then the rhizome is wasting energy sending them up and not getting any return.  After the first year when you are trying to maximize output that's different.

oops.

I don't think it was an issue trimming the additional bines you did not train.  One question, how many bines did you train?  The number of bines you train will increase the required nutrients/energy.  Last year, (first year) I trained two bines per plant and they grew approximately 13 feet.  I only had about 1 ounce (dry weight) of useable hops that year but this year they are already much taller.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 09, 2010, 07:39:48 PM
I don't think it was an issue trimming the additional bines you did not train.  One question, how many bines did you train?  The number of bines you train will increase the required nutrients/energy.  Last year, (first year) I trained two bines per plant and they grew approximately 13 feet.  I only had about 1 ounce (dry weight) of useable hops that year but this year they are already much taller.

I'm not saying trimming the additional bines stunted the growth of those that were trained, in fact it probably helped them because they get all of the nutrients from the rhizome.  The output you get depends on the strength of the rhizome, and since you shouldn't expect to get any usable cones your first year you might as well get the root system as strong as possible.  So leaving all of the bines will help the rhizome be really strong and help your bines grow taller next year. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: theDarkSide on August 09, 2010, 07:44:31 PM
I got what you were saying Tom, and it makes total sense now ( of course I just trimmed some stuff this morning ).

I ran 2 bines up each string.  I definately wait for them to die off so all the nutrients and energy return to the root...and no more trimming.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: marty on August 09, 2010, 08:18:44 PM
I actually have about 30 cones...I know, not much but exciting still.  I will look forward to next year and will do better at soil maintenance.

Thanks guys.

that is more than I got in my 2nd year

1st year - nothing, 2nd a handful of cones

This is the 3rd year and they've gone nuts. Kind of what I expected based on some of the info during the crisis
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: alikocho on August 09, 2010, 09:05:43 PM
I've got first year hops in too, and mine are about the same in terms of growth. I most likely live in a different part of the world, and am growing all British hops (can't get US hops out at the right time of year), and things are generally a touch behind the US as it's cooler here during the summer.

But then, I wasn't expecting much from the first year.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: jwatkins56550 on August 10, 2010, 03:15:28 AM
I'm not sure if I have my hops in a big enough pot.  Could this by why my yield seems a little more than some?  Maybe it is running out of root room, and is concentrating on cone production?  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: brewmasternpb on August 10, 2010, 04:26:00 AM
I've had pretty good luck with my 2 first year plants.  They're both in pots, but I used my home-made compost for half of the soil.  The Columbus grew fast, and there are about 60 hop cones.  The Chinook took it's time, and is just starting to yield some cones. 
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 10, 2010, 04:33:45 AM
How big is the pot?  That would be unusual, if the plant is in a pot that is too small it most likely lacks nutrients and thus can't produce a good crop of cones.

Is the pot sitting on dirt and have you moved it recently?  Potted hops often grow out the bottom of the pot, so the plant won't be as restricted as it might first appear.

Or maybe you're just really good at keeping up with water and fertilization and have excellent growing conditions . . .
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: denny on August 10, 2010, 03:28:55 PM
I'm not sure if I have my hops in a big enough pot.  Could this by why my yield seems a little more than some?  Maybe it is running out of root room, and is concentrating on cone production?  Any thoughts?

I think you're exactly right.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: alikocho on August 10, 2010, 07:18:54 PM
I'm not sure if I have my hops in a big enough pot.  Could this by why my yield seems a little more than some?  Maybe it is running out of root room, and is concentrating on cone production?  Any thoughts?

I think you're exactly right.

+1

You need to repot or plant this out during the winter when the plant is dormant. This sounds very much like what a plant does when it can't grow it's roots.  You could also prune the rhizome during the winter and start off a new plant.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: andrew on August 10, 2010, 08:59:24 PM
Mine are pathetic. They(Golding and Willemette) were given to me as a gift, but I really don't have much space for them. I potted them both in fairly big pots but only one is alive. My cat "trimmed" them to the ground twice and now only the will are living now. Got a cage around them now but still not optimistic since I live in the burbs of Fort Lauderdale. What the cat doesn't kill the climate will.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: jeffy on August 10, 2010, 09:20:39 PM
Mine are in their second year and seem to be very healthy, having climbed up about 16 feet and then sent shoots out all over, but I have no flowers or cones yet.  I'm envious of the photos of people harvesting already.  I want to show these to my hops and tell them, "this is what you should be doing!"
Jeff in Tampa
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: andrew on August 10, 2010, 09:39:55 PM
Mine are far from that, maybe a foot and a half. It's just now really growing back. Just happy they are growing some. If I ever get one cone I may jump for joy.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 10, 2010, 10:15:55 PM
Mine are in their second year and seem to be very healthy, having climbed up about 16 feet and then sent shoots out all over, but I have no flowers or cones yet.  I'm envious of the photos of people harvesting already.  I want to show these to my hops and tell them, "this is what you should be doing!"
Jeff in Tampa


What varieties are you growing?  Flowering is triggered by day length and hops supposedly grow best between 35 and 55 latitude, so Tampa is far enough south that you "can't" get a good crop.  Some people still do though, so it might be dependent on the hop variety.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: richardt on August 10, 2010, 10:49:30 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Hopoutput.png)

According to this image from Wiki, there are a lot of hops being produced in Iran and China at the same latitude as Tampa, FL. 

That would seem to suggest that climate (soil, temperature, and water) plays a role as well.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: mr_jeffers on August 11, 2010, 12:23:16 AM
This spring I planted three rhizomes, one each of Cascade, Centennial and Chinook.  It took longer than expected to get my first shoot from each rhizome, and I never got a second shoot from any of them.  The Cascade and Chinook have both grown to the top of my garage eave (10').  The top of the shoots started to hang down, so after awhile I started to train them up another string.  They both have cones, although not many.  The Centennial seems to have stalled out a little better than half way up, and even though it has side shoots, I have yet to see any developing cones.  It does get some shade from a lilac tree close by, which might explain why the other two are doing better.  I've been told not to expect much of anything the first year, so I'm trying not to get my hopes up.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 11, 2010, 12:46:57 AM
According to this image from Wiki, there are a lot of hops being produced in Iran and China at the same latitude as Tampa, FL.  
That would seem to suggest that climate (soil, temperature, and water) plays a role as well.

Richard, that map is not so good.  It has many errors is size of the hop fields, e.g. US area is too small and in the wrong places, Germany only has a handful of hop growing areas.  Turkey and Iran do not show up on the table in the same Wiki article or in this publication below.  England only has about 3000 acres in production in Kent and Warminster, but most of Britan is green on the map.  And so on.

http://www.hmelj-giz.si/ihgc/doc/IHGC%20hop%20supply%202001-2006.pdf

I think the wrong map is linked to Wikipedia.

here are the German growing regions.
http://arzneipflanze-hopfen.de/index.php?lang=en&folder=wissen&subFolder=pflanze&file=pflanze1

edit - the units on the graph make no sense, as the yield per acre is usually about 2000 lbs.  A ha is hectare which is 2.47 acres.  kg/ha is somthing really small.




Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: richardt on August 11, 2010, 01:40:40 AM
Jeff,
Thanks for the feedback.  Can't believe everything on Wiki.

Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 11, 2010, 01:49:50 AM
Hey Richard, I go there a lot, but every now and then something makes you go, "wait a minute".

I don't even know how to contact them to point out the map not making sense.

One other point,  you can grow hops as far south as Atlanta and South Carolina.  The thing that finaly limits the southern range is not enough daylight in the summer.  I have read that the ones grown in South Africa have flood lights to make the hops think the days are longer. 

The summer solstice also is a trigger for burr/cone production.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 11, 2010, 02:29:49 AM
I was looking at that map thinking it didn't quite look right, then I scrolled down and read the messages,  Nice work hopfenundmalz.

Still Richard, I think your point is accurate, climate plays a definite role in hop growing.  People DO grow successfully below 35 latitude, without using grow lights to supplement.  Chris Colby was doing some stuff a while back, it should be in BYO.  He's in Texas, and definitely below 35 degrees latitude.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: jwatkins56550 on August 13, 2010, 01:55:38 AM
I'm not sure if I have my hops in a big enough pot.  Could this by why my yield seems a little more than some?  Maybe it is running out of root room, and is concentrating on cone production?  Any thoughts?

I think you're exactly right.

+1

You need to repot or plant this out during the winter when the plant is dormant. This sounds very much like what a plant does when it can't grow it's roots.  You could also prune the rhizome during the winter and start off a new plant.

That's what I figured.  I think I might go ahead and plant them in the ground in the winter, don't hop roots like to grow horizontally?  Or do I have that ass backwards...
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: tschmidlin on August 13, 2010, 02:11:35 AM
That's what I figured.  I think I might go ahead and plant them in the ground in the winter, don't hop roots like to grow horizontally?  Or do I have that ass backwards...
No, you're right, the spread horizontally.  They grow like weeds around here, so if they're happy in your area you might want to plan ahead for some sort of containment strategy.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: mindar on August 13, 2010, 05:32:32 AM
I planted 2 rhizomes of Glacier and 1 of Fuggles. The fuggles came up early, but then died off. One of the Glacier never sprouted at all, but the other's running up the cord like crazy. No cones, but I didn't expect any the first year. We'll see how they do next year....sigh.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: beerrat on August 16, 2010, 01:24:49 PM
The first year for my Brewers Gold, and cascades, I got about 1/4 pound of hops from each. Cones did not fill in along the bine that first year.

The second year, we had a balanced rainfall summer, so cones were dense along entire bine and had a great harvest from both.

The third year year, we had a really wet summer - brewers gold did very well, but cascades not that productive.

This year, we are having a very dry summer, and I really have not been out watering the bines as I should have, other then my new Hallertau's, and grape vine I'm trying to establish.  Brewers Gold are looking very good again, cascades pretty thin, and hallertau doing what I would expect first year - thin but should have enough for 1 batch.

I'm in NE PA and in a drought area this summer.  It has been a very hot one as well.

.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: BrewArk on August 16, 2010, 04:40:18 PM
Here, we've had a cooler than normal summer, & I've kept my watering up.

Net result: bumper crop the best I've ever had (year 3).  I have cones 3" long on the Cascade, w/good Saaz & Magnum yields.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: Malticulous on August 16, 2010, 09:03:16 PM
Mine were about two feet tall then the 100 degree heat came and all vines dried up. They are still alive. I though I had watered them enough. Better luck next year.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: theDarkSide on August 18, 2010, 03:26:45 PM
Here's a shot of my cascades ( 1st year ):

(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/stevo155/da554cdb.jpg)

Does anyone use fertilizer stakes for their hops and what kind?
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 18, 2010, 04:51:00 PM
Hops need a lot of Nitrogen.  Says that they use a 3-1-1 fertilizer.

If you have good soil maybe just Nitrogen.  My soil is poor, a combination of sand and gravel.  I need some potash.

Your first year picture looks pretty good, as you got some cones.
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: weithman5 on August 18, 2010, 04:59:14 PM
i planted santiem, magnum, and sterling this year at easter.  they all made it to the roof of garage and i am happy.  the magnum however have gone crazy for first year. they have made it to  the roof, to the ground and back to the roof.  so close to 24 total feet.  they are loaded with lot of cones which most are going to come off and get dried and vaccum packed this weekend.  everything else is as i expected for first year.  some cones but certainly not loaded
Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: wingnut on August 18, 2010, 05:06:49 PM
Hops need a lot of Nitrogen.  Says that they use a 3-1-1 fertilizer.

If you have good soil maybe just Nitrogen.  My soil is poor, a combination of sand and gravel.  I need some potash.

Your first year picture looks pretty good, as you got some cones.

For fertilizer I have been using a powdered fertilizer for tomatoes.  You mix it with water or add to a miracle grow sprayer (connected to the hose) and water your plants with the fertilizer one a week or so.   Essentially, from what I have read, the tomatoes and hops have similar needs, so what is good for one, is good for the other! 

The weather has been ideal this year, but the cones and bine growth have been outstanding since I started using the stuff.   When I went away on vacation for two weeks, the Cascades began to have the lower leaves yellow... a sign of nutrient deficiency as the hops transfer the nutrients to the cones, sacrificing the leaves if needed.    Once I started to fertilize again, the leaves stopped yellowing and started some new lateral growth.

Title: Re: Anyone Else's 1st Year Hops Not Up to Snuff
Post by: mr_jeffers on August 18, 2010, 08:20:43 PM
For fertilizer I have been using a powdered fertilizer for tomatoes.  You mix it with water or add to a miracle grow sprayer (connected to the hose) and water your plants with the fertilizer one a week or so.   Essentially, from what I have read, the tomatoes and hops have similar needs, so what is good for one, is good for the other! 

The weather has been ideal this year, but the cones and bine growth have been outstanding since I started using the stuff.   When I went away on vacation for two weeks, the Cascades began to have the lower leaves yellow... a sign of nutrient deficiency as the hops transfer the nutrients to the cones, sacrificing the leaves if needed.    Once I started to fertilize again, the leaves stopped yellowing and started some new lateral growth.

I should take a trip to the local nursery and see if I can find some of that.  My cascades have been yellowing a bit, even though I've been watering them every day.  My soil seems to be mostly sand, and i'm sure most of the nutrients is gone from the compost I added when I planted them.  I'm surprised at how well the Chinook have done though.  I must have a few dozen thumb sized cones on that one vine alone!  I'm thinking that I might have to move the Centennials out into a sunnier location.  I'm assuming the best time to do this will be this fall after they go dormant?