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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: aaspinall on June 20, 2018, 10:47:02 PM

Title: pale malt difference
Post by: aaspinall on June 20, 2018, 10:47:02 PM
I'm brewing a recipe that calls for two different brands of pale malt (9 lbs. of Maris Otter and 4 lbs. of Briess). Will I really notice the difference if I just use 11 lbs of the same kind? Not sure if my supply store carries Maris Otter.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: David on June 20, 2018, 10:50:52 PM
I'm brewing a recipe that calls for two different brands of pale malt (9 lbs. of Maris Otter and 4 lbs. of Briess). Will I really notice the difference if I just use 11 lbs of the same kind? Not sure if my supply store carries Maris Otter.

I use Maris a lot, it has a slightly different flavor than pale (i assume 2-row?), to me it is better, but is a matter of preference. Your supplier should carry it as it is a popular UK base malt.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: 69franx on June 21, 2018, 05:21:27 AM
I would say if you went 100%, it would be much better to go 100% Maris, vs the Briess. Either wway will make beer, the blend will add some character that 100% of either will not. Probably fine either way though

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Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: jtoots on June 21, 2018, 12:25:57 PM
I love Maris Otter to death. I use it as my only base malt all the time.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: chezteth on June 21, 2018, 04:29:09 PM
I would say if you went 100%, it would be much better to go 100% Maris, vs the Briess. Either wway will make beer, the blend will add some character that 100% of either will not. Probably fine either way though

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+1

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Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: denny on June 21, 2018, 06:02:06 PM
I think I'm kind of an oddball here.  MO is a great malt, but I don't care for it for American styles in general.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 21, 2018, 06:15:17 PM
I generally only use Maris Otter in English styles, but I used it once in a blend with US 2 row for a simple lager and it turned out remarkably well.  So, anymore, I don't know whether the boundaries are so clear...at least not with base malt uses. Crystals on the other hand - I don't use them all that much beyond a little Carahell in my German lagers.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: jeffy on June 21, 2018, 06:44:21 PM
I'm with Denny as well. 
I think a blend of the two would be best, maybe 50/50.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: erockrph on June 27, 2018, 03:36:22 PM
Maris Otter is typically a Pale Ale malt, while "pale" malt is typically a lighter-kilned 2-row malt. When used in a blend, you can usually pick out the flavor contributions of each ingredient. My "house" base malt is a 2:1 blend of Pilsner and Pale Ale malt, and I can definitely pick out the flavors from each of the two.

You can get away with using all MO for the recipe you have, but it won't be quite the same as the recipe as written.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: dmtaylor on June 27, 2018, 03:45:06 PM
There is a difference between the two.  I'm not a huge fan of either one.  I am leaning more and more towards continental pilsner malt as my base malt for most beers these days (love Swaen).  That or Great Western pale malt.

General recommendation to everyone:  The next shop you visit, crunch a few kernels of each base malt to figure out which ones you like the best.  You might be surprised at your conclusions.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: soymateofeo on June 29, 2018, 07:32:08 AM
This is a loaded question for sure.  You are going to get every answer under the sun.  All you can do is brew more often, brew the same recipe and then use each of the following base malts to determine which you like:
Briess 2 row
Rahr 2 row
GW 2 row
Almanac 2 row
Mecca Grade 2 row
GW California Select 2 row
briess pilsen
viking pale
etc.

Oh and then try all of the 6 row stuff. Then the rest of the small maltsters. I can't stand Rahr because I hate saying it.  "Rahr"  nope.  not feeling it. 

I have a feeling each of those, solo or in any combination will probably make good/great beer.  IMO if you are at the point where your choice of base malt is making or breaking your brews, you are in a good spot and the appropriate base malt will be apparent. I have switched between Briess, GW and Maris Otter depending on what was available.  Never really noticed a huge difference.  I never used MO for an american pale or IPA.  Now I think I will to see if I like it. I'm sure I will.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: MNWayne on June 30, 2018, 02:45:54 AM
I like Rahr. Partly because it's a local maltster, and partly because I've had good efficiencies. Sounds nice too.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on June 30, 2018, 02:54:21 AM
I like Rahr. Partly because it's a local maltster, and partly because I've had good efficiencies. Sounds nice too.
Rahr Standard 2-row has, of late, become my preferred base malt.  Briess never did it for me, thin, slightly sugary and grainy taste, poor performance.  (Though Briess is great for specialty malts.)  Rahr is nicely rich and malty, and performs exceedingly well. Just compare COAs,  Rahr is a great malt.  For a European Pilsner malt, Weyermann stands alone. Rahr is more fun to say than Weyermann or Briess, you can use it on Talk Like a Pirate Day.  ;)
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: tommymorris on June 30, 2018, 01:33:29 PM
In the last few months I have noticed Briess 2-row has become much more prominent and Rahr is a bit harder to find. I am not sure if that is just the stores I shop at or if Briess has actually gained market share.

I like Briess, Rahr, Malteurop, Great Western. I guess I am 2-row agnostic.

Last year, I started avoiding Briess because the malt looked skinny (not plump) and I was experiencing a noticeable drop in efficiency when using it. This year I went back to Briess when my preferred online shop didn’t have any other choice. Happily, the plumpness is much improved and I am no longer experiencing a lower efficiency.

I personally have never experienced graininess with Briess. I would instead describe it as a very clean base malt that gets out of the way so other malts can shine.


- formerly alestateyall.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on June 30, 2018, 02:30:36 PM
Tommy,  interesting observation on Briess.  When I said "poor" performance I really meant "inconsistent," you seem to have observed that.  Briess operates on a small-batch scale compared to Rahr, which is one of the world's largest maltsters; that may be a factor in variability.  As for availability,  I suspect that's something to do with your retailers.  Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.

And yeah, Briess gets out of the way, I think Rahr has more presence, which I guess I like.  I've not had the opportunity to try GW.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: BrewBama on June 30, 2018, 07:43:11 PM
... Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.
...

Actually, I believe Rahr owns BSG.



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Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on June 30, 2018, 08:16:16 PM
... Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.
...

Actually, I believe Rahr owns BSG.



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Oops!  Of course you're right. Point is, I don't see why their availability would be declining.  And sorry if I'm drawing us off topic...
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: tommymorris on June 30, 2018, 08:21:55 PM
... Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.
...

Actually, I believe Rahr owns BSG.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Oops!  Of course you're right. Point is, I don't see why their availability would be declining.  And sorry if I'm drawing us off topic...
I guess they just don’t sell it at Adventures in Homebrewing. I am in my own little world here.


- formerly alestateyall.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: majorvices on June 30, 2018, 08:42:18 PM
I think I'm kind of an oddball here.  MO is a great malt, but I don't care for it for American styles in general.

+1
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 01, 2018, 03:11:03 AM
I think I'm kind of an oddball here.  MO is a great malt, but I don't care for it for American styles in general.

+1

I use MO for English styles.  And sometimes in stout. But not for American styles.

I love it and it has its place. But it's not for everything.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 01, 2018, 03:29:40 PM
Tommy,  interesting observation on Briess.  When I said "poor" performance I really meant "inconsistent," you seem to have observed that.  Briess operates on a small-batch scale compared to Rahr, which is one of the world's largest maltsters; that may be a factor in variability.  As for availability,  I suspect that's something to do with your retailers.  Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.

And yeah, Briess gets out of the way, I think Rahr has more presence, which I guess I like.  I've not had the opportunity to try GW.

One point, Rahr owns BSG. https://www.rahr.com The other distributor/importer is The Country Malt Group, which is owned by Great Western/Canada Malting which are owned by GrainCorp from AU http://www.greatwesternmalting.com/gwm/malting-company/

Briess has done a few things differently in the last few years. First they stopped malting 6-row. Then they sourced malt from the Bighorn Basin. I was surprised to see malt in poly bags, not paper, which I think is better for storage. At NHC they had a new product that you coul get a pound of, 30L Munich. I might have to try some of their base malt again if I can find it at the right price.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: tommymorris on July 01, 2018, 03:54:20 PM
Tommy,  interesting observation on Briess.  When I said "poor" performance I really meant "inconsistent," you seem to have observed that.  Briess operates on a small-batch scale compared to Rahr, which is one of the world's largest maltsters; that may be a factor in variability.  As for availability,  I suspect that's something to do with your retailers.  Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.

And yeah, Briess gets out of the way, I think Rahr has more presence, which I guess I like.  I've not had the opportunity to try GW.

One point, Rahr owns BSG. https://www.rahr.com The other distributor/importer is The Country Malt Group, which is owned by Great Western/Canada Malting which are owned by GrainCorp from AU http://www.greatwesternmalting.com/gwm/malting-company/

Briess has done a few things differently in the last few years. First they stopped malting 6-row. Then they sourced malt from the Bighorn Basin. I was surprised to see malt in poly bags, not paper, which I think is better for storage. At NHC they had a new product that you coul get a pound of, 30L Munich. I might have to try some of their base malt again if I can find it at the right price.
GrainCorp Malt Group is a big part of our lives: Country Malting Group, BrewcraftUSA, Great Western, Bairds, Schill, Canada Malting Co.

and people worry about AB InBev owning 2 homebrew supply shops.


- formerly alestateyall.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 01, 2018, 06:38:38 PM
Tommy,  interesting observation on Briess.  When I said "poor" performance I really meant "inconsistent," you seem to have observed that.  Briess operates on a small-batch scale compared to Rahr, which is one of the world's largest maltsters; that may be a factor in variability.  As for availability,  I suspect that's something to do with your retailers.  Again, Rahr is huge, and owned by BSG,  the US importer of many brands (Weyermann, Castle, Crisp, Simpson's, Patagonia, Gambrinus, Malt Co of Ireland...) your shop probably carries.

And yeah, Briess gets out of the way, I think Rahr has more presence, which I guess I like.  I've not had the opportunity to try GW.

One point, Rahr owns BSG. https://www.rahr.com The other distributor/importer is The Country Malt Group, which is owned by Great Western/Canada Malting which are owned by GrainCorp from AU http://www.greatwesternmalting.com/gwm/malting-company/

Briess has done a few things differently in the last few years. First they stopped malting 6-row. Then they sourced malt from the Bighorn Basin. I was surprised to see malt in poly bags, not paper, which I think is better for storage. At NHC they had a new product that you coul get a pound of, 30L Munich. I might have to try some of their base malt again if I can find it at the right price.
GrainCorp Malt Group is a big part of our lives: Country Malting Group, BrewcraftUSA, Great Western, Bairds, Schill, Canada Malting Co.

and people worry about AB InBev owning 2 homebrew supply shops.


- formerly alestateyall.
BSG has a large portfolio too.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Hooper on July 04, 2018, 10:02:30 PM
I'm brewing tomorrow...thought I had 10# Pilsner...to go in my 40/60 Halcyon/Pilsner Pale Ale...Well I'm doing 40/60 Halcyon/Briess 2-row. It won't be the same but it will be fine...

I really like Thomas Fawcett Pearl and Halcyon...Any comments on these two?
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: BrewBama on July 04, 2018, 10:59:19 PM
I can’t remember who did it, but I read an experiment where they taste tested a beer brewed with 2 row vs one brewed with Pilsner. With all else the same, very few folks could tell the difference.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: charlie on July 06, 2018, 01:41:41 AM
I'm brewing a recipe that calls for two different brands of pale malt (9 lbs. of Maris Otter and 4 lbs. of Briess). Will I really notice the difference if I just use 11 lbs of the same kind? Not sure if my supply store carries Maris Otter.

You will definitely notice. As others have mentioned Marris Otter (MO) lends a more english'y flavor. Early in my all-grain adventure the LBHS gave me a recipe using 1/2 Marris Otter and 1/2 two row. I wondered about it, so I made the same recipe using all two row and all MO. The all MO brew was a bit much flavor wise, and the all two row was plain vanilla, but the 50:50 mix popped!

Charlie
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on July 06, 2018, 10:08:10 AM
I can’t remember who did it, but I read an experiment where they taste tested a beer brewed with 2 row vs one brewed with Pilsner. With all else the same, very few folks could tell the difference.

Brulosophy has done a couple of grain comparison experiments (and some of the articles are reposted at the AHA site).  Here's the link to the pale malt two row vs pilsner:

http://brulosophy.com/2017/08/28/grain-comparison-pale-malt-2-row-vs-pilsner-malt-exbeeriment-results/
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: klickitat jim on July 06, 2018, 10:46:04 AM
"2 row" is a poor descriptor for precisely which malt to use. Maris Otter is a variety of 2 row. We all misuse these terms. I tell people I use Golden Promise... but more specifically its Simpsons Golden Promise Finest Pale Ale. Even though you could certainly use a larger yeast with it, even a larger yeast that is actually an ale yeast.

It's just one of those things. In fishing they refer to monofilament vs florocarbon. Um, both are actually monofilament, unless they are braided... but I guess monofilament sounds better than nylon.

I suspect one of the key aspects that effects final beer flavor is diastatic power. Generally American paler kilned malts, about 80% of which are 2 row, are far higher DP than their European counterparts. Yes, different varieties. Yes, kilned differently. But treat an American variety they way the European maltsters do and I bet my suspicion is accurate ish.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2018, 11:29:47 AM
Jim, nice to see you got a break from fishing to join us again!  ;)  If you (and anybody else) get a chance, listen to the recent MBAA podcasts on "6-rowification" of American 2-row.  Actually it seems 90% of US malt is now 2-row,  but it has properties so close to 6-row, you really can't treat these varieties like European barley.  But it may not matter.  You can still make very tasty malt and beer with them (Americans have been making all malt beer with 6-row for centuries.)  In fact, anybody who has a day too rainy for fishing, riding or whatever keeps you busy in the summer, and wants to really learn about barley and malt differences, listen to any and all of the MBAA podcasts featuring Joe Hertrich.  Malt and flavor (ep. 24-26) and 6-rowification (ep. 88-89.)  Great stuff.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: mabrungard on July 06, 2018, 12:08:53 PM
Indeed! The '2-Row' descriptor is almost worthless. The more important descriptor is the malt's color rating since that directly relates to the malt's SMM content and potential DMS difficulties. To add to the confusion, maltsters apply confusing and deceptive names to their malts and that introduces more problems. One maltster's Pils malt could be another's Extra Pale malt.

While I said '2-Row' is almost worthless above, it still indicates the broad barley variety. This is important since malts that don't state that they are '2-Row', could very well be made with '6-Row' barley. In reading a number of books on malt, I noted that there are malts that are actually made with 6-Row barley and the maltsters provide no indication of the variety in their naming. You might say that's OK with you, but an important fact is that 6-Row barley contains about 50 to 100 percent more SMM potential than 2-Row. Fortunately, the darker a malt is kilned, the lower the SMM content.   

This all still points to the fact that brewers need to pay more attention to the color rating of their base malts than they have before. Names are just names. Color rating is factual and it provides more indication of wort flavor and DMS potential.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2018, 01:45:15 PM
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2018, 02:39:50 PM
^^^^
Weyermann and Rahr, at least, have a QR code on the bag that will link you to a lot analysis.  If you don't buy by the bag yourself , you could at least see if your LHBS will let you scan a bag from their shipment.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2018, 02:51:56 PM
^^^^
Weyermann and Rahr, at least, have a QR code on the bag that will link you to a lot analysis.  If you don't buy by the bag yourself , you could at least see if your LHBS will let you scan a bag from their shipment.

The two biggest factors to making good beer are knowing your malt so you can produce the wort you want and clean fermentation.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: mainebrewer on July 06, 2018, 04:18:24 PM
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: denny on July 06, 2018, 04:31:09 PM
"2 row" is a poor descriptor for precisely which malt to use. Maris Otter is a variety of 2 row. We all misuse these terms. I tell people I use Golden Promise... but more specifically its Simpsons Golden Promise Finest Pale Ale. Even though you could certainly use a larger yeast with it, even a larger yeast that is actually an ale yeast.

It's just one of those things. In fishing they refer to monofilament vs florocarbon. Um, both are actually monofilament, unless they are braided... but I guess monofilament sounds better than nylon.

I suspect one of the key aspects that effects final beer flavor is diastatic power. Generally American paler kilned malts, about 80% of which are 2 row, are far higher DP than their European counterparts. Yes, different varieties. Yes, kilned differently. But treat an American variety they way the European maltsters do and I bet my suspicion is accurate ish.

Thank you thank you thank you.....
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2018, 04:45:18 PM
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.

Well, we apply an efficiency term in the gravity calculations so using fine grind as is is perfectly suitable.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2018, 06:10:06 PM
But treat an American variety they way the European maltsters do and I bet my suspicion is accurate ish.
One thing I've learned from the podcasts is that American varieties, and even American-grown European varieties, really have to be handled differently.   The S/T has to be pushed higher, not for its own sake, but because it goes hand in hand with beta glucan reduction, breakdown of cell walls to make starch available, and many other things.  Yes, it gives American malts higher DP,  as well as FAN.  But you can deal with that in process.  Otherwise the malt will lack good capacity for flavor and color development, will perform poorly in the brewhouse, and the beer will not clarify well (or taste very exciting.)  I just finished a keg I brewed with locally grown KWS Scala,  locally floor malted to European specs.  I think I saw all of those problems. I'd have to try the same barley malted in the conventional US way to be sure.  But this malt wasn't European-like, it was just disappointing.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: mainebrewer on July 06, 2018, 09:23:55 PM
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.

Well, we apply an efficiency term in the gravity calculations so using fine grind as is is perfectly suitable.

So if I'm not using your calculation process, using the coarse grind as is number is appropriate?
Not trying to argue, just want to understand.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: klickitat jim on July 06, 2018, 09:24:49 PM
Joe has got to be the most knowledgeable malt person around. Great teacher too.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: BrewBama on July 06, 2018, 09:49:43 PM

So if I'm not using your calculation process, using the coarse grind as is number is appropriate?
Not trying to argue, just want to understand.

Maybe this can help: http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/ImprovingBrewhouseEfficiency-Havig.pdf


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2018, 10:31:58 PM
One thing people should try to do is get into the habit of obtaining Malt Analysis sheets if they can. I understand that not everyone buys in bulk and is able to get a specific lot analysis with their malt, but maltsters often give typical analysis, which at the very least gives you a better idea than nothing about how the malt will perform.

The major players regardless of type or brand are:

1.) Color
2.) Moisture
3.) Fine Grind/Dry Basis Extract
4.) Fine Grind/As Is Extract (accounts for Moisture)
5.) DI pH
6.) Hartong Index (VZ 45C) - Helps to determine the gelatinization temperature
7.) Total Protien
8.) Kolbach Index (Indicates the degree of modification)

You can become a better, more consistent brewer by knowing how your malt will perform regardless of it's type of manufacturer.

I always thought it was the "course grind extract" versus "fine grind" figure that was important for our purposes.

Well, we apply an efficiency term in the gravity calculations so using fine grind as is is perfectly suitable.

So if I'm not using your calculation process, using the coarse grind as is number is appropriate?
Not trying to argue, just want to understand.

I meant we, as in the Royal we, as in homebrewers and hobbyists.

I’ve thought about this over the last month or so when I was revising my personal sheet. I think using the coarse grind as is numbers would make many people undershoot gravity. Think about it: the fine grind as is values are determine by pulverizing the malt and draining every single drop of wort possible out of it. They likely get almost 100% Lauter η in addition to 100% Conversion η. In that sense, we wouldn’t want to use that number because we can’t achieve those same results.

However, we don’t crush that fine so we don’t get full lauter efficiency. This makes using the DBAI okay because we are going to apply a mash efficiency term less than 100% to the calculation.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: mainebrewer on July 07, 2018, 02:02:50 PM
BrewBama, thanks for the link.
Big Monk, thanks for explaining your rationale.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on July 13, 2018, 12:06:50 AM
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: klickitat jim on July 13, 2018, 01:31:31 AM
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
My personal favorite
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on July 13, 2018, 01:41:09 AM
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
My personal favorite
Jim, your frequent enthusiastic endorsement was a factor in my deciding to finally shell out for a bag. Now I'm already hooked , at least I see I can go to Morebeer, pay shipping, and still save $10 over LHBS.  (OTOH it's always going to be incredibly fresh at LHBS. They also have a distillery and it's the base of their whiskey, so they buy boatloads.  The smell coming from back there was another factor in my decision.)
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 13, 2018, 10:22:16 AM
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
I like the GP from Simpsons over other maltster.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: BrewBama on August 29, 2018, 07:43:24 PM
I know this is an older thread but as I re-viewed the Seminars from the 2017 AHA Conference, I re-noticed a really good spiel by Briess concerning the Hot Steep Method of Sensory Analysis.  In other words, if you don't have the experience that some of the well-seasoned folks who've replied here have, you can taste the malt before you brew with it.  It's a really simple process, and in the OP's case you could hot steep all MO, all 2 row, and/or the split to see which you prefer.  You could even do variations on the split to see if you like more of this vs that.

IMO, Briess has stepped up their game and I'd like to try some of their newer offerings like Synergy Select Pilsen in this SHM process.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/seminar/the-relationship-between-base-malt-flavor-preference-and-beer-flavor-preference-does-base-malt-flavor-matter/
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: denny on August 29, 2018, 11:44:01 PM
I know this is an older thread but as I re-viewed the Seminars from the 2017 AHA Conference, I re-noticed a really good spiel by Briess concerning the Hot Steep Method of Sensory Analysis.  In other words, if you don't have the experience that some of the well-seasoned folks who've replied here have, you can taste the malt before you brew with it.  It's a really simple process, and in the OP's case you could hot steep all MO, all 2 row, and/or the split to see which you prefer.  You could even do variations on the split to see if you like more of this vs that.

IMO, Briess has stepped up their game and I'd like to try some of their newer offerings like Synergy Select Pilsen in this SHM process.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/seminar/the-relationship-between-base-malt-flavor-preference-and-beer-flavor-preference-does-base-malt-flavor-matter/

We wrote about a very similar technique in Experimental Brewing.  At experimentalbrew.com, Drew has dine a writeup of malt tasting using this method and a sous vide machine.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: BrewBama on August 29, 2018, 11:48:52 PM
Interesting.  When the young lady giving the talk said to heat the water to 140* I though of my sous vide.


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Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: kgs on August 30, 2018, 02:09:56 AM
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
I like the GP from Simpsons over other maltster.

My LHBS started carrying Simpson's Golden Promise over a year ago and I love the flavor in my brews. I was worried it wouldn't get enough use for them to continue, but they tell me distillers like it as well. I recently used it in an ESB, but I've used it in a number of places where it supposedly wasn't the right malt. Made for a yummy if unusual take on California Common.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on August 30, 2018, 02:30:11 AM
I just tasted a gravity & pH sample from my first brew with Simpson's Golden Promise (I know, how did I not get to this before.)  I think I'm in love.
I like the GP from Simpsons over other maltster.

My LHBS started carrying Simpson's Golden Promise over a year ago and I love the flavor in my brews. I was worried it wouldn't get enough use for them to continue, but they tell me distillers like it as well. I recently used it in an ESB, but I've used it in a number of places where it supposedly wasn't the right malt. Made for a yummy if unusual take on California Common.
My LHBS also has a distillery.  They use Simpsons GP for their own whisk(e)y, which BTW is dangerously delicious (glad it's expensive) so I know they'll keep it around.  I just tapped this first brew with it, and I'm not disappointed at all.  Given the low color and rich, full, but very generically malty flavor, I look forward to trying it in a pale lager.  It doesn't have to go in an ale just because it's English.  Excuse me, I need to drink some more of this tasty stuff.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Lazy Ant Brewing on August 30, 2018, 02:47:03 PM
There is a difference between the two.  I'm not a huge fan of either one.  I am leaning more and more towards continental pilsner malt as my base malt for most beers these days (love Swaen).  That or Great Western pale malt.

General recommendation to everyone:  The next shop you visit, crunch a few kernels of each base malt to figure out which ones you like the best.  You might be surprised at your conclusions.

How I wish I had the opportunity to taste each malt before I bought it.  It's all pre-weighed in bags here, and you buy it first and taste it later.  But, it all makes drinkable beer.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: reverseapachemaster on August 30, 2018, 03:17:05 PM
We have two or three upstart maltsters here in Colorado that I'm eager to check out. I bought pale malt, pils and vienna from one (Root Shoot). I made a NE-style pale ale with the pale malt and it's very different from anything any pale malt I've ever tried. It has a very present honey and toasted wheat bread flavor. I'd think it was the wrong grain but I weighed and bagged it myself and that's how the shop describes the grain.

Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: Robert on August 30, 2018, 03:55:54 PM
We have some upstarts in Ohio too,  and I've tried pale malts from two of them, both made from the same variety of Ohio-grown barley.  One maltster runs a small, manual floor-malting operation and makes a very wide variety of products.  The malt performed quite poorly, and I can't comment on the taste, because there just wasn't much taste there to comment on.  The other maltster, just opened, runs an industrial, German drum system and makes just base malts (Pils, Pale, Vienna and Munich,) with a capacity of nearly 1400 metric tons per year.  It is truly some of the best malt I've ever used.  And since I can get a bag for cheaper than Briess or Rahr, it may become my go-to.   So it's interesting to see what a difference malting, rather than barley variety, can make, and also that "artisanal" or what not isn't necessarily best.
Title: Re: pale malt difference
Post by: denny on August 30, 2018, 04:03:06 PM
Very true, Robert.  The matter makes a lot more differences the variety.