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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: narcout on July 12, 2018, 07:01:20 PM

Title: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: narcout on July 12, 2018, 07:01:20 PM
I notice that Morebeer has recently started carrying Viking Malts (38 varieties), including no-lox versions of pilsner and pale malt. I've never heard of Viking before, but apparently they are a pretty large maltster in Europe.

Here's a blurb from the website:

Viking Malt is also known for growing the malt varietal Charles, a null-lox malt. Null-lox malts do not contain the enzyme lipoxygenase (lox) which leads to trans-2-nonenal in aged beer. Trans-2-nonenal is responsible for beer staling and the associated flavors of cardboard and paper. Normally the null-lox varietals are sold at a premium in Europe, but our initial shipments of base malts will all be crafted from the Charles null-lox varietal at no extra cost.

https://www.morebeer.com/category/grains-malt-barley.html?fc_1104=Viking+Malt

https://www.morebeer.com/products/viking-pilsner-malt-1.html

https://www.morebeer.com/products/viking-pale-malt.html
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 12, 2018, 08:51:10 PM
Cool. This maybe a more elegant way than adding sulfates and ascorbic acid. Kinda like using acid malt vs liquid lactic acid. It’ll be interesting to see results from experiments.


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: denny on July 12, 2018, 09:46:51 PM
Cool. This maybe a more elegant way than adding sulfates and ascorbic acid. Kinda like using acid malt vs liquid lactic acid. It’ll be interesting to see results from experiments.


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Except in your example, I'd go for lactic acid every time.  Is that what you were saying?
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 12, 2018, 10:02:32 PM
Cool. This maybe a more elegant way than adding sulfates and ascorbic acid. Kinda like using acid malt vs liquid lactic acid. It’ll be interesting to see results from experiments.


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How so? LOX is not something you would be using AA or sulfites to mitigate.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: samuel.workman on July 12, 2018, 10:26:44 PM
The inclination if I'm reading the op's intent, is that, if this enzyme is indeed an accelerator or agent of staling, that it's absence may slow the rate of damage by the O2 in the tun, kettle, or bottle (not prevent it).

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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 12, 2018, 10:50:13 PM
The inclination if I'm reading the op's intent, is that, if this enzyme is indeed an accelerator or agent of staling, that it's absence may slow the rate of damage by the O2 in the tun, kettle, or bottle (not prevent it).

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If the flavor of the malt is any good this would be good for anyone not brewing Low Oxygen.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: samuel.workman on July 12, 2018, 10:53:52 PM
Right, I agree. Was just trying to give a bit of clarity to the op, and especially the intent of the second post.

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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 12, 2018, 11:17:22 PM
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: samuel.workman on July 12, 2018, 11:19:37 PM
Before the discussion unfolded, I was thinking it might benefit folks who are also working on their Low Oxygen techniques, but face particular obstacles. For instance, folks with Braumeisters might have a little extra time after dough-in (the bug-a-boo for these systems) to help the yeast catch up in scavenging or something for those using that method.

IF the malt has good flavor, that is. Nothing matters if not.

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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: samuel.workman on July 12, 2018, 11:21:23 PM
All things stale, not just malt. It's just a matter of how long it takes.

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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: The Beerery on July 12, 2018, 11:28:07 PM
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Staling doesn't need oxygen to start.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 12, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
All things stale, not just malt. It's just a matter of how long it takes.

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+1. I think I must be oxidized. LOL


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: samuel.workman on July 12, 2018, 11:34:18 PM
All things stale, not just malt. It's just a matter of how long it takes.

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+1. I think I must be oxidized. LOL


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Ha! Yep, I'm with you Brother.

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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2018, 11:57:20 PM
The inclination if I'm reading the op's intent, is that, if this enzyme is indeed an accelerator or agent of staling, that it's absence may slow the rate of damage by the O2 in the tun, kettle, or bottle (not prevent it).

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Kunze 3.2.1.6 explains that even if all O2 were excluded, degradation by LOX of fatty acids would still occur.  (But LOX is temperature sensitive, so using higher kilned malts and mashing in in above 140°F already reduce it considerably.)
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: samuel.workman on July 13, 2018, 12:00:09 AM
Right, this is a question of speed not 'if' or 'whether'.

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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 13, 2018, 12:01:19 AM
The inclination if I'm reading the op's intent, is that, if this enzyme is indeed an accelerator or agent of staling, that it's absence may slow the rate of damage by the O2 in the tun, kettle, or bottle (not prevent it).

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Kunze 3.2.1.6 explains that even if all O2 were excluded, degradation by LOX of fatty acids would still occur.  (But LOX is temperature sensitive, so using higher kilned malts and mashing in in above 140°F already reduce it considerably.)

I appreciate the explanation.


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 13, 2018, 12:02:27 AM
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Nope.

The point of the antioxidants is to act as an active scavenger against oxygen introduced after pre-treating the water. After pre-treating you are at ~ 0 ppm DO in the strike water. You add antioxidants to counter the ingress from mashing in and the intrusion of atmospheric oxygen. The main goal is the protection of a fresh grain flavor we find appealing and that likely comes from one of two low weight malt phenolic compounds in the grain, which are oxidized and lost rapidly without precautions. The fringe benefit is long term stability of finished beer. LOX is a staling precursor activated, not exclusively I might add, in the presence of oxygen. It falls in this latter stability category. LOX less malt won’t get you the fresh grain flavors and seeing that it is only one of many known staling precursors, might not even get you long term flavor stability. Flavor stability in itself is the product of many process improvements, not just the removal of LOX. Also, LOX is denatured in malts with kilning more intensive then say Pilsner malt, so really it’s a small piece of that puzzle.

With that said, people using normal brewing process might benefit from this malt the most, being that most subject the mash to upwards of 8 ppm over 60-90 minutes, so having no LOX is a start at least.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 13, 2018, 12:30:07 AM
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Nope.

The point of the antioxidants is to act as an active scavenger against oxygen introduced after pre-treating the water. After pre-treating you are at ~ 0 ppm DO in the strike water. You add antioxidants to counter the ingress from mashing in and the intrusion of atmospheric oxygen. The main goal is the protection of a fresh grain flavor we find appealing and that likely comes from one of two low weight malt phenolic compounds in the grain, which are oxidized and lost rapidly without precautions. The fringe benefit is long term stability of finished beer. LOX is a staling precursor activated, not exclusively I might add, in the presence of oxygen. It falls in this latter stability category. LOX less malt won’t get you the fresh grain flavors and seeing that it is only one of many known staling precursors, might not even get you long term flavor stability. Flavor stability in itself is the product of many process improvements, not just the removal of LOX. Also, LOX is denatured in malts with kilning more intensive then say Pilsner malt, so really it’s a small piece of that puzzle.

With that said, people using normal brewing process might benefit from this malt the most, being that most subject the mash to upwards of 8 ppm over 60-90 minutes, so having no LOX is a start at least.

I guess it goes back to the old saw: know why you’re doing what you’re doing.


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 13, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
Hmmm. I thought the point of adding anti oxidants in low oxygen brewing is to reduce/ eliminate dissolved oxygen to limit/prevent staling. I thought this lox malt does that for you so you don’t have to add the anti oxidants.

The correlation of lactic acid to acidulated malt was based on that understanding.


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Nope.

The point of the antioxidants is to act as an active scavenger against oxygen introduced after pre-treating the water. After pre-treating you are at ~ 0 ppm DO in the strike water. You add antioxidants to counter the ingress from mashing in and the intrusion of atmospheric oxygen. The main goal is the protection of a fresh grain flavor we find appealing and that likely comes from one of two low weight malt phenolic compounds in the grain, which are oxidized and lost rapidly without precautions. The fringe benefit is long term stability of finished beer. LOX is a staling precursor activated, not exclusively I might add, in the presence of oxygen. It falls in this latter stability category. LOX less malt won’t get you the fresh grain flavors and seeing that it is only one of many known staling precursors, might not even get you long term flavor stability. Flavor stability in itself is the product of many process improvements, not just the removal of LOX. Also, LOX is denatured in malts with kilning more intensive then say Pilsner malt, so really it’s a small piece of that puzzle.

With that said, people using normal brewing process might benefit from this malt the most, being that most subject the mash to upwards of 8 ppm over 60-90 minutes, so having no LOX is a start at least.

I guess it goes back to the old saw: know why you’re doing what you’re doing.


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Yup. Knowledge is power in brewing and it introduces a measure of control over you’re variables. I would argue that paying closer attention to wort quality into the kettle and then into the fermenter will pay infinitely more dividends than trying to get LOX out of malt. From a flavor stability standpoint that is.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 13, 2018, 01:00:54 AM
Big Monk, I can see this as another problem you can approach by reducing one or more elements of a triangle as it were.  Oxygen the catalyst, LOX the agent and lipids the substrate.  Reduce lipids (wort clarity,) minimize oxygen, thereby compensate for the presence of LOX.  But I realize lipid degradation can begin at (let's ignore before) mashing in, before you've run off clear wort.  Is this where gallotannin comes in?
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 13, 2018, 01:11:12 AM
Big Monk, I can see this as another problem you can approach by reducing one or more elements of a triangle as it were.  Oxygen the catalyst, LOX the agent and lipids the substrate.  Reduce lipids (wort clarity,) minimize oxygen, thereby compensate for the presence of LOX.  But I realize lipid degradation can begin at (let's ignore before) mashing in, before you've run off clear wort.  Is this where gallotannin comes in?

That and the use of a bag as the filtering mechanism in lieu of the standard cooler braid and in conjunction with a false bottom. Constant recirculation helps as well, as it really sets the grain bed and increases efficiency so you don’t have to stir up all that junk before running off. No sparge helps as well by eliminating the Sparging step. Conditioned grains with intact husks is a great filtering mechanism as well.

Many many levers to pull here. As an engineer (Bryan is an engineer as well) I am looking at these issues as engineering problems and looking for practical solutions. Nothing esoteric here. You are solving problems and that doesn’t necessarily have to be shiny and high tech.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 13, 2018, 01:19:58 AM
And I see these malts as more attractive to big brewers who need every possible lever to pull to maximize stability, whereas home- and craft brewers are better able to ensure their products are handled properly, another lever.  (Temperature, the great accelerator.)  Even there, I seem to recall Joe Hertrich in a podcast suggesting that accepting a bit higher color off the kiln and mashing higher might negate the need for null-LOX barley.  (Hmm, those seem to be his solutions to many issues....)
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 13, 2018, 01:29:14 AM
And I see these malts as more attractive to big brewers who need every possible lever to pull to maximize stability, whereas home- and craft brewers are better able to ensure their products are handled properly, another lever.  (Temperature, the great accelerator.)  Even there, I seem to recall Joe Hertrich in a podcast suggesting that accepting a bit higher color off the kiln and mashing higher might negate the need for null-LOX barley.  (Hmm, those seem to be his solutions to many issues....)

To be clear, LOX is pretty much kilned off on anything Pale Ale malt or higher. AFAIK, that leaves only Pilsner malts affected by the presence of LOX.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 14, 2018, 07:18:18 PM
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 14, 2018, 10:06:38 PM
^^^^
Simply, not all oxidation is LOX-related?  Polyphenols oxidize, all sorts of things oxidize right through the life of the beer, requiring ongoing vigilance against oxygen.  LOX degradation of lipids leads to the particular problem of aldehydes leading to T-2-N.  But I'm thinking if you're excluding oxygen by other means anyway, these malts may seem less necessary or elegant in many cases.   Gallotannin (which you're likely using anyway as a chelator) supposedly prevents aldehyde formation; it might be simpler just to use that in addition to oxygen-exclusion measures (which you're also necessarily using anyway.)

An obvious market for these malts, it follows, would be Reinheitsgebot-bound brewers.  But that's not about elegance, just ridiculousness.   IMHO.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 18, 2018, 12:54:08 AM
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Firstly, if you crush with care (intact husks) and exclude oxygen as a general rule, LOX isn’t an issue. Also, anything kilned higher than a Pilsner neutralizes a large portion of the LOX in the malt.

In general:

1.) Metabisulfite is a FAST Oxygen scavenger. It’s there to absorb the major ingress during dough-in;
2.) AA is a SLOW scavenging agent, that works alongside the remaining Meta throughout the mash and boil;
3.) BTB/GT acts to chelate source water metals, malt derived nasties (fats, lipids), etc.

LOX less malt can’t replace any of the three substances above because LOX is the lowest man on the totem pole as far as flavor stability is concerned.
Title: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 18, 2018, 01:09:33 AM
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Firstly, if you crush with care (intact husks) and exclude oxygen as a general rule, LOX isn’t an issue. Also, anything kilned higher than a Pilsner neutralizes a large portion of the LOX in the malt.

In general:

1.) Metabisulfite is a FAST Oxygen scavenger. It’s there to absorb the major ingress during dough-in;
2.) AA is a SLOW scavenging agent, that works alongside the remaining Meta throughout the mash and boil;
3.) BTB/GT acts to chelate source water metals, malt derived nasties (fats, lipids), etc.

LOX less malt can’t replace any of the three substances above because LOX is the lowest man on the totem pole as far as flavor stability is concerned.

Interesting that AEB only focuses on the oxidation due to LOX and chelating in their product description.


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 18, 2018, 01:16:17 AM
...but then I read about AntioxinSBT: “AEB sums it up as:

“A new generation of anti-oxidizing agent. The usage of AntioxinSBT in the brew-house will prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to the LOX (lipoxygenase), not only In the early stages but all the way through the life of the beer. After neutralizing the LOX and chelating the metals In the mash tank, all the ingredients from AntioxinSBT completely disappear during boiling.”

The ingredients are listed as Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite.” (aka ‘the Trifecta’)

Based on the above, if SBT contains Gallotannins, Ascorbic Acid, and Potassium Metabisulfite, and it is suppose to prevent most of the problems related to oxidation that can occur due to LOX (lipoxygenase), why can’t his Null LOX grain do that in a more elegant way instead? 

The more I read the more confused I become. Thank goodness I don’t have to build a watch to know what time it is.


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Firstly, if you crush with care (intact husks) and exclude oxygen as a general rule, LOX isn’t an issue. Also, anything kilned higher than a Pilsner neutralizes a large portion of the LOX in the malt.

In general:

1.) Metabisulfite is a FAST Oxygen scavenger. It’s there to absorb the major ingress during dough-in;
2.) AA is a SLOW scavenging agent, that works alongside the remaining Meta throughout the mash and boil;
3.) BTB/GT acts to chelate source water metals, malt derived nasties (fats, lipids), etc.

LOX less malt can’t replace any of the three substances above because LOX is the lowest man on the totem pole as far as flavor stability is concerned.

Interesting that AEB only focuses on the oxidation due to LOX and cheating in their product description.


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Especially since they only have a small % of gallotannins.

You are better off building your own:

1.) Pick your Meta dose;
2.) duplicate it with AA;
3.) Dose with BTB per the manufacturer specs.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 18, 2018, 01:28:04 AM
Okay, you've got me.  I've been using meta and BTB,  I'll add the AA.   Is there anything else I need to know first?
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 18, 2018, 01:35:05 AM
Okay, you've got me.  I've been using meta and BTB,  I'll add the AA.   Is there anything else I need to know first?

I don’t think so.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 18, 2018, 06:13:23 PM
With the AA addition, I assume you would want to put it through a water calculator to take into account the pH affect?
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: denny on July 18, 2018, 06:34:17 PM
With the AA addition, I assume you would want to put it through a water calculator to take into account the pH affect?

I would think that if you use enough to affect the pH, you've used too much.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 18, 2018, 07:19:41 PM
^^^^^
Assuming I will use it at the same rate as my NaMeta, if I put any other acid into Bru'n Water at that same rate... It don't do diddly squat to the pH.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 18, 2018, 09:42:42 PM
It has no affect on pH. Metabisulfite does however.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Robert on July 18, 2018, 10:03:20 PM
It has no affect on pH. Metabisulfite does however.
But even that, at the levels used (<50ppm,) is within the margin of accuracy of my pH meter.  So I'll call that diddly, too, as a practical matter. 
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 18, 2018, 10:11:10 PM
It has no affect on pH. Metabisulfite does however.
But even that, at the levels used (<50ppm,) is within the margin of accuracy of my pH meter.  So I'll call that diddly, too, as a practical matter.

It’s important to track it though. Its -0.1 pH units per 100 ppm. For a modest 20 ppm dose that’s a -0.02 pH drop.

I’ve neen working with A.J. deLange on bringing his proton deficit pH model to the public integrated within a brewing sheet. It’s going to make all other standalone or embedded water calculators obsolete.

A result of that work was finally figuring out that Meta drops pH because by scavenging Oxygen it gives up two hydrogens or 2 mEq of Acid.
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 18, 2018, 10:54:38 PM
Derek, I watched the conversation unfold. When do you anticipate your development will be complete?


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Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: Big Monk on July 18, 2018, 11:08:48 PM
Derek, I watched the conversation unfold. When do you anticipate your development will be complete?


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Probably a few weeks. I’ve written the lion’s share and incorporated A.J.’s troubleshooter (aka the “engine”) but I want A.J. to peer review it before it goes out.

It will be a brewday calculator with extract, volume tracking, sparging incorporated, bitterness (including whirlpool hops), color, and pH estimation. All the Low Oxygen stuff will be there too. 
Title: Re: Null-lox Malts from Morebeer
Post by: BrewBama on July 19, 2018, 12:00:18 AM
Thanks


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