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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Annabellesdad14 on July 13, 2018, 02:38:04 AM

Title: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Annabellesdad14 on July 13, 2018, 02:38:04 AM
Hey all,

Looking for any feedback for a traditional amber Biere de Garde.

Here's what I have so far:

1.073 SG
22 IBU

12lb Vienna Malt
8 oz caramunich
8 oz aromatic
4 oz biscuit

1 oz Brewers gold @60
.25 oz Hallertau @20

WLP072 French Ale

Package and lager 4 weeks

Planning 60min single infusion mash @152F and one hour boil unless otherwise recommended.

Any feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: mabrungard on July 13, 2018, 12:06:56 PM
Looks reasonable. An hour boil should be sufficient since Vienna has reasonably low SMM content. A half hour covered simmer and half hour open boil will do.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: riceral on July 13, 2018, 05:49:19 PM
An hour boil should be sufficient since Vienna has reasonably low SMM content. A half hour covered simmer and half hour open boil will do.

I heard a great presentation in Portland about this. That guy really knew what he was talking about and convinced me.  ;)
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: denny on July 13, 2018, 06:06:37 PM
OTOH, I've one BdG with an 8 hour boil.  Not that I'd do that regularly, but it certainly did add something to the beer.  And since AFAIK BdG is a marketing construct, it can be whatever you say it is!
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 18, 2018, 04:42:21 PM
I just brewed a BdG myself last week!  Looks similar.  I used an already yeast and a lager yeast and incorperated some brown sugar to boost gravity and add a je ne sais quoi to it lol.  I'm fermenting at the low end of the ale yeast and the upper end of the lager yeast, right on that sweet spot of 60 degrees for 3 weeks, then packaging and aging/lagering at 38* for another 3 weeks.

I boiled for 90 mins because I didn't read this post first.  My line of thinking was to make those malliard reactions happen to give it that beautiful copper color, which it did nicely!  Didn't know the trick about a covered simmer as per Martin, will have to try that sometime too.

Good luck, yours looks good! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Annabellesdad14 on September 23, 2018, 06:51:18 AM
I just brewed a BdG myself last week!  Looks similar.  I used an already yeast and a lager yeast and incorperated some brown sugar to boost gravity and add a je ne sais quoi to it lol.  I'm fermenting at the low end of the ale yeast and the upper end of the lager yeast, right on that sweet spot of 60 degrees for 3 weeks, then packaging and aging/lagering at 38* for another 3 weeks.

I boiled for 90 mins because I didn't read this post first.  My line of thinking was to make those malliard reactions happen to give it that beautiful copper color, which it did nicely!  Didn't know the trick about a covered simmer as per Martin, will have to try that sometime too.

Good luck, yours looks good! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I'm happy with the way mine is drinking. If I were to brew this again, and I plan to get around to it eventually, I think I may add some carapils, sugar, and mash a bit lower. I wound up using WLP029 since my lhbs didnt have 072. The flavor is great but the attenuation was low. I was looking for a bit more ABV and a slightly drier beer, which I think could be acheived with the sugar and lower mash temp. Also the head retention is poor, which is why I'd include the carapils.

Good luck with your BdG!
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: denny on September 23, 2018, 03:33:20 PM
I just brewed a BdG myself last week!  Looks similar.  I used an already yeast and a lager yeast and incorperated some brown sugar to boost gravity and add a je ne sais quoi to it lol.  I'm fermenting at the low end of the ale yeast and the upper end of the lager yeast, right on that sweet spot of 60 degrees for 3 weeks, then packaging and aging/lagering at 38* for another 3 weeks.

I boiled for 90 mins because I didn't read this post first.  My line of thinking was to make those malliard reactions happen to give it that beautiful copper color, which it did nicely!  Didn't know the trick about a covered simmer as per Martin, will have to try that sometime too.

Good luck, yours looks good! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I'm happy with the way mine is drinking. If I were to brew this again, and I plan to get around to it eventually, I think I may add some carapils, sugar, and mash a bit lower. I wound up using WLP029 since my lhbs didnt have 072. The flavor is great but the attenuation was low. I was looking for a bit more ABV and a slightly drier beer, which I think could be acheived with the sugar and lower mash temp. Also the head retention is poor, which is why I'd include the carapils.

Good luck with your BdG!

Isn't adding both carapils and sugar at cross puposes?  Carapils won't necessarily increase foam.  Look f or instance at Duvel....nothing but pils malt and sugar and its got foam that homebrewers would kill for.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: dmtaylor on September 23, 2018, 04:36:52 PM
Carapils doesn't improve foam.  But flaked wheat or rye certainly do.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: denny on September 23, 2018, 04:48:32 PM
Carapils doesn't improve foam.  But flaked wheat or rye certainly do.

Not necessarily
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Big Monk on September 23, 2018, 04:58:37 PM
I just brewed a BdG myself last week!  Looks similar.  I used an already yeast and a lager yeast and incorperated some brown sugar to boost gravity and add a je ne sais quoi to it lol.  I'm fermenting at the low end of the ale yeast and the upper end of the lager yeast, right on that sweet spot of 60 degrees for 3 weeks, then packaging and aging/lagering at 38* for another 3 weeks.

I boiled for 90 mins because I didn't read this post first.  My line of thinking was to make those malliard reactions happen to give it that beautiful copper color, which it did nicely!  Didn't know the trick about a covered simmer as per Martin, will have to try that sometime too.

Good luck, yours looks good! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I'm happy with the way mine is drinking. If I were to brew this again, and I plan to get around to it eventually, I think I may add some carapils, sugar, and mash a bit lower. I wound up using WLP029 since my lhbs didnt have 072. The flavor is great but the attenuation was low. I was looking for a bit more ABV and a slightly drier beer, which I think could be acheived with the sugar and lower mash temp. Also the head retention is poor, which is why I'd include the carapils.

Good luck with your BdG!

Isn't adding both carapils and sugar at cross puposes?  Carapils won't necessarily increase foam.  Look f or instance at Duvel....nothing but pils malt and sugar and its got foam that homebrewers would kill for.

That has quite a bit to do with mashing and pre bottle filtering as well but you are dead on. Great foam is process based.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: denny on September 23, 2018, 06:35:54 PM
[q K97uote author=Annabellesdad14 link=topic=32063.msg416947#msg416947 date=1537685478]
I just brewed a BdG myself last week!  Looks similar.  I used an already yeast and a lager yeast and incorperated some brown sugar to boost gravity and add a je ne sais quoi to it lol.  I'm fermenting at the low end of the ale yeast and the upper end of the lager yeast, right on that sweet spot of 60 degrees for 3 weeks, then packaging and aging/lagering at 38* for another 3 weeks.

I boiled for 90 mins because I didn't read this post first.  My line of thinking was to make those malliard reactions happen to give it that beautiful copper color, which it did nicely!  Didn't know the trick about a covered simmer as per Martin, will have to try that sometime too.

Good luck, yours looks good! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I'm happy with the way mine is drinking. If I were to brew this again, and I plan to get around to it eventually, I think I may add some carapils, sugar, and mash a bit lower. I wound up using WLP029 since my lhbs didnt have 072. The flavor is great but the attenuation was low. I was looking for a bit more ABV and a slightly drier beer, which I think could be acheived with the sugar and lower mash temp. Also the head retention is poor, which is why I'd include the carapils.

Good luck with your BdG!

Isn't adding both carapils and sugar at cross puposes?  Carapils won't necessarily increase foam.  Look f or instance at Duvel....nothing but pils malt and sugar and its got foam that homebrewers would kill for.

That has quite a bit to do with mashing and pre bottle filtering as well but you are dead on. Great foam is process based.
[/quote]

And fermentation temp and yeast health.   
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Annabellesdad14 on September 23, 2018, 07:48:08 PM
I just brewed a BdG myself last week!  Looks similar.  I used an already yeast and a lager yeast and incorperated some brown sugar to boost gravity and add a je ne sais quoi to it lol.  I'm fermenting at the low end of the ale yeast and the upper end of the lager yeast, right on that sweet spot of 60 degrees for 3 weeks, then packaging and aging/lagering at 38* for another 3 weeks.

I boiled for 90 mins because I didn't read this post first.  My line of thinking was to make those malliard reactions happen to give it that beautiful copper color, which it did nicely!  Didn't know the trick about a covered simmer as per Martin, will have to try that sometime too.

Good luck, yours looks good! Can't wait to see the finished product!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

I'm happy with the way mine is drinking. If I were to brew this again, and I plan to get around to it eventually, I think I may add some carapils, sugar, and mash a bit lower. I wound up using WLP029 since my lhbs didnt have 072. The flavor is great but the attenuation was low. I was looking for a bit more ABV and a slightly drier beer, which I think could be acheived with the sugar and lower mash temp. Also the head retention is poor, which is why I'd include the carapils.

Good luck with your BdG!

Isn't adding both carapils and sugar at cross puposes?  Carapils won't necessarily increase foam.  Look f or instance at Duvel....nothing but pils malt and sugar and its got foam that homebrewers would kill for.

I must be confused then. This is from Briess:

The original Carapils® Malt is a unique, dextrine-style malt that consistently increases foam, improves head retention and enhances mouthfeel without adding flavor or color to your beer.


How would you troubleshoot foam issues with a beer like this? Nothing different about my usual processes and I normally dont have this issue.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 23, 2018, 07:51:14 PM
You could always try a protien. Rest at 122*F to try to improve head. 

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: dmtaylor on September 23, 2018, 08:01:06 PM
You could always try a protien. Rest at 122*F to try to improve head. 

No no non on onononononononononononono no.  I totally totally disagree.  This is the 21st century.  Protein rest ruins good beer in the 21st century.  Maybe 200 years ago with terribly undermodified malt, it might have been a good idea.  Not today.

Sorry, I've been drinking again.

EDIT: Okay, okay, here's more info regarding Carapils from a sober guy:

http://scottjanish.com/dextrins-and-mouthfeel/
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Robert on September 23, 2018, 08:25:55 PM
I'm with Dave.  Nothing will wreck your foam like a protein rest.  It will also dull your malt flavors and thin out the mouthfeel.  It is only useful for breaking down all those nice body-  and foam-positive and melanoidin-forming peptides and such into extra yeast nutrients if you're making 60% adjunct industrial fizzy water. (And probably not even then with modern, high nitrogen barleys.) All malts available today have had the protein regime brought to perfection and only need to have the carbohydrates broken down.

  And my experience is that Carapils/Carafoam not only doesn't do what it says, it does the opposite.   It does, however, add a subtle but detectable nutty flavor note in very delicate beers.

And don't apologize for drinking beer.  Or being passionate about it.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 23, 2018, 08:36:08 PM
What are your solutions then Robert/dmtaylor?  I've heard nothing but process based solutions to increase head and head retention.  What do you do?

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: BrewBama on September 23, 2018, 08:36:24 PM
I’ve been using the Hockhurz mash as described by Kai Troester and been getting great foam (and attenuation):

The first rest (maltose rest) should be held at or around 63C (145F) and it’s length is used to control the fermentability of the wort. A good starting point for its duration is 30 min. Longer for more fermentable wort and shorter for less fermentable wort. If even higher fermentability is desired an intermediate rest at 65C (150F) can be added.

The dextrinization rest at 70-72C (158-162F) needs to be held until the mash is iodine negative but may be extended to 45-60 min. Many authors contribute head retention and mouthfeel benefits to extending this rest.

Finally the mash may be raised to mash out temp and subsequently lautered.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Infusion_Mashing


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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: dmtaylor on September 23, 2018, 08:40:20 PM
What are your solutions then Robert/dmtaylor?  I've heard nothing but process based solutions to increase head and head retention.  What do you do?

As I've hinted at already, rye.  Simple as that.  Add 10% rye to any recipe.  Done.

And don't apologize for drinking beer.  Or being passionate about it.

Cheers to that.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: klickitat jim on September 23, 2018, 08:54:45 PM
My "process" for great foam is
All malt
Single infusion
No sparge
Moderate boil vigor
Dont sweat trub transfer
Oxygenate
Pitch active yeast to proper temp wort
Drop clear before closed transfer
Patient carbonation
Keep everything clean and sanitary
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Robert on September 23, 2018, 08:56:45 PM
I've not tried rye, but wheat does work, even at 5% IME.  But most important -- and this is process based -- the mash program as outlined by BrewBama.  I hold the ~160° rest for a minimum of 15-30 minutes, even for highly fermentable worts, and a mash-off at 170°F for at least 10 minutes,  and I believe this step contributes to foam as well.  There is still amylase activity and glycoprotein synthesis going on, right up until there isn't.

Oh yeah, like Jim says, gentle boil.  Improves flavor too.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 23, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: dmtaylor on September 23, 2018, 11:49:47 PM
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

Actually yes -- a lot of what was written in the big fancy books has been proven wrong in the past 5-10 years.  Books are out of date the minute they are published.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 23, 2018, 11:59:07 PM
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

Actually yes -- a lot of what was written in the big fancy books has been proven wrong in the past 5-10 years.  Books are out of date the minute they are published.

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Robert on September 24, 2018, 12:07:25 AM
Yep, there's a lot of bad, or at least 50 years outdated, information that has been perpetuated in homebrew books and such.  On specifics, let's see.   Boiling decoctions doesn't cause astringency problems, so 170°F won't either.   DMS is not even a problem except with the occasional extra pale Pilsner malt, and even those are manufactured to minimize SMM (the precursor.)   It takes at least 30 minutes on heat to convert SMM, if it is even there, to DMS.  Then just a short uncovered boil will drive it off.  A gentle, circulating simmer with the lid on is far less damaging to wort.  And so on.  Like Jim's point on not sweating the trub removal.  Lots of stuff had validity once, but either materials have changed,  or brewing science has advanced and debunked old assumptions and practices. There are great resources to stay on top of things at least, like the forum for one!   There are also podcasts, websites,  professional textbooks (newer ones at least)...   But this forum is always eye opening and a good start.  Like right now.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: dmtaylor on September 24, 2018, 12:29:11 AM
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?

Online is the place to be.  Right here right now is a good place to start.  And homebrewtalk.com as well.  And maybe Brulosophy.com.  The best thing to do always, of course, is to run your own experiments, learn from your own experiences, and thus become educated on stuff yourself, since there is so very much that remains debatable and contentious everywhere you go.  The hobby as a whole continues to evolve on a daily basis, literally.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Some might think that after 19 years and roughly 160 batches homebrewing, and being online for almost that whole time, and reading tons of books, that I'd know everything about everything.  False.  I don't.  And neither does anyone else.  But if you can keep up with the joneses online, you'll be better off than most.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 24, 2018, 12:39:39 AM
Thanks man.  I brew A LOT. Sometimes twice a week.  I read everything I can get my hands on.  I've been brewing for 10 years now.  I'd never claim to know everything, or even a fraction of what I want to.  I think that's what keeps me going.  But in my experiences, I've never had a protein rest destroy my head. But I only use it for my Weissen which is 50% wheat anyway.  Thanks for the info.  I guess I have to be more active on the forums.  Do you know of any science journals involving brewing that would be good to read?
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?

Online is the place to be.  Right here right now is a good place to start.  And homebrewtalk.com as well.  And maybe Brulosophy.com.  The best thing to do always, of course, is to run your own experiments, learn from your own experiences, and thus become educated on stuff yourself, since there is so very much that remains debatable and contentious everywhere you go.  The hobby as a whole continues to evolve on a daily basis, literally.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Some might think that after 19 years and roughly 160 batches homebrewing, and being online for almost that whole time, and reading tons of books, that I'd know everything about everything.  False.  I don't.  And neither does anyone else.  But if you can keep up with the joneses online, you'll be better off than most.

Cheers.

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: JT on September 24, 2018, 02:12:50 AM
Let's talk about this protein-rest-killing foam-thing.  The last weissbier I brewed was held at 114° for some time.  Now that's upper acid, lower protein rest territory.  The grist was wheat and Weyermann pils malt.  Foam for days.  Is the thought that the wheat overcomes any foam damage by the low rest? 
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Big Monk on September 24, 2018, 02:42:22 AM
Let's talk about this protein-rest-killing foam-thing.  The last weissbier I brewed was held at 114° for some time.  Now that's upper acid, lower protein rest territory.  The grist was wheat and Weyermann pils malt.  Foam for days.  Is the thought that the wheat overcomes any foam damage by the low rest?

Do you step mash? I think many people who advise against the protein rest are right but are also single infusers.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 24, 2018, 02:45:30 AM
I guess we got a bit off topic.  I'm just wondering why I've never ever had a head problem, even when using a protein rest.

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Big Monk on September 24, 2018, 03:20:00 AM
I guess we got a bit off topic.  I'm just wondering why I've never ever had a head problem, even when using a protein rest.

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What is your typical mash schedule?
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on September 24, 2018, 03:23:50 AM
I guess we got a bit off topic.  I'm just wondering why I've never ever had a head problem, even when using a protein rest.

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What is your typical mash schedule?
It really depends on what I'm making but I guess mostly a single infusion no mashout sparge.  If I'm making my Weissen it's a triple decoction mash. 112°, 122°, 149°

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Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: denny on September 24, 2018, 02:27:58 PM
Wow, you guys are turning everything I thought I knew about brewing on it's head.  Should I throw out my books and what I've learned in them?  At 170° aren't you worried about astringency?  For no sparge do you just put your total boil volume plus grain absorbtion into your MT?  Gentle boil ever give you issues with DMS?

Pardon my ignorance, it just seems like these things go against everything I've read.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

IMA, astringent  is a function of pH, not temp
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Brewtopalonian on October 03, 2018, 04:50:24 PM
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?

Online is the place to be.  Right here right now is a good place to start.  And homebrewtalk.com as well.  And maybe Brulosophy.com.  The best thing to do always, of course, is to run your own experiments, learn from your own experiences, and thus become educated on stuff yourself, since there is so very much that remains debatable and contentious everywhere you go.  The hobby as a whole continues to evolve on a daily basis, literally.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Some might think that after 19 years and roughly 160 batches homebrewing, and being online for almost that whole time, and reading tons of books, that I'd know everything about everything.  False.  I don't.  And neither does anyone else.  But if you can keep up with the joneses online, you'll be better off than most.

Cheers.

Just a heads up, I took your advice and have been looking this information up.  I found a Brulosophy exBeeriment suggesting that a protein rest does not have a negative effect on your head retention even given highly modified grains.
http://brulosophy.com/2018/09/10/the-mash-protein-rest-vs-single-infusion-exbeeriment-results/ (http://brulosophy.com/2018/09/10/the-mash-protein-rest-vs-single-infusion-exbeeriment-results/)
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: Robert on October 03, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
I see a couple of problems with this xBmt right off.  One, it's a wheat beer.  Special case, not a legitimate test subject.   Two, the summary of the effects of a protein rest is incomplete and inaccurate.   I'm not sure he understood how it works or what he should be testing.  In brief, a "protein rest" is not just one thing.  Between 113°-127°F, proteinase is favored, reducing body- and foam-positive proteins and polypeptides to peptides and amino acids, necessary for yeast nutrition in worts made with large amounts of unmalted adjuncts.  Between 130°-140°F peptidase is favored, reducing proteins to polypeptides, which are crucial to body and foam. But even this rest can be detrimental with a malt that has already had the proteins adequately modified in malting, because the polypeptides will ultimately be reduced to aminos anyway.  So a proper experiment might use the Rahr two-row he used, but without the wheat.  It might compare 3 different temperature programs.   And science and experience say the result would be rather different.
Title: Re: Biere de Garde recipe critique
Post by: dmtaylor on October 03, 2018, 05:32:09 PM
Okay so what should I read/study to stay up to date and well informed, so as to avoid being made a fool of when I give what I had thought is sound advice?

Online is the place to be.  Right here right now is a good place to start.  And homebrewtalk.com as well.  And maybe Brulosophy.com.  The best thing to do always, of course, is to run your own experiments, learn from your own experiences, and thus become educated on stuff yourself, since there is so very much that remains debatable and contentious everywhere you go.  The hobby as a whole continues to evolve on a daily basis, literally.  I'm learning new stuff all the time, otherwise I wouldn't be here.  Some might think that after 19 years and roughly 160 batches homebrewing, and being online for almost that whole time, and reading tons of books, that I'd know everything about everything.  False.  I don't.  And neither does anyone else.  But if you can keep up with the joneses online, you'll be better off than most.

Cheers.

Just a heads up, I took your advice and have been looking this information up.  I found a Brulosophy exBeeriment suggesting that a protein rest does not have a negative effect on your head retention even given highly modified grains.
http://brulosophy.com/2018/09/10/the-mash-protein-rest-vs-single-infusion-exbeeriment-results/ (http://brulosophy.com/2018/09/10/the-mash-protein-rest-vs-single-infusion-exbeeriment-results/)

Brulosophy's experience is not consistent with my own.  But it's data!  And in their case, it's presented in a nice clean way for all to see.  However those guys will admit they're not the end-all be-all either, and neither am I, of course.  All good stuff to consider anyway.

Cheers.