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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: braufessor on July 13, 2018, 01:10:13 PM

Title: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 13, 2018, 01:10:13 PM
Just curious if anyone had gotten their scoresheets yet.  The post-competition e-mail said that all entrants would receive them by today.  Just wondering if they had been going out gradually over the past week or if they are all going out today.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: johnny_mo on July 13, 2018, 02:26:17 PM
I am sending out the scoresheets today, as well as releasing the post-competition package that contains the results and letter for your entries. Thanks for being patient about it!
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 13, 2018, 02:30:49 PM
I am sending out the scoresheets today, as well as releasing the post-competition package that contains the results and letter for your entries. Thanks for being patient about it!

Great - thanks.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: joeinma on July 13, 2018, 04:52:17 PM
Guy in my club who made Finals received his about an hour ago.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: dls5492 on July 13, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
I just got mine.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: narcout on July 13, 2018, 05:14:06 PM
I got mine this morning.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 13, 2018, 05:43:40 PM
Got mine as well..... Close but no cigar.  Glad they were at least in the hunt though:
Helles Exportbier =  40/42 Mini BOS. I think this is the third time to make mini BOS in this category-no medals :(
Dark Mild = 38/39

Hopefully get over the hump one of these years.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: MDixon on July 13, 2018, 05:59:10 PM
This year the mini-BOS rounds were judges by a different set of judges from those who judged the flights. I believe all were National and higher and wasn't sure how it would work out. IMO it worked very well. The judges were able to focus on finding the top three beers and were not skewed by what they may have advanced from the earlier round of judging. Know that if your beer made it to the mini-BOS it was probably one of the top 12-15 beers out of all the entries in the country. Congratulations!
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 13, 2018, 06:40:43 PM
I see they also put info up on the competition page too.  They may not have marked "mini BOS" on all the paper forms, as it indicates on the competition page that my Mild made mini BOS too.... so, worth looking at both for those getting their score sheets.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: jeffy on July 13, 2018, 07:19:29 PM
At most of the competitions in Florida we fill out a mini bos form to send back with the score sheets of entries that advanced.  It includes notes from the judges on all the mini bos entries to give some reasoning as to why it did or did not place.  I wish all the competitions did this.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: Wilbur on July 13, 2018, 11:11:50 PM
I agree, this would be fantastic. I made the mini BOS in Chicago but didn't advance. I'd have loved to get some extra feedback, but I feel like I have some things to play around with for next year. Fixed my astringency issue at least from last year.

Way to go braufessor, pretty tough to advance two beers. Did you submit just those two, or did you have a few more in the first round?
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 14, 2018, 03:39:46 AM
I agree, this would be fantastic. I made the mini BOS in Chicago but didn't advance. I'd have loved to get some extra feedback, but I feel like I have some things to play around with for next year. Fixed my astringency issue at least from last year.

Way to go braufessor, pretty tough to advance two beers. Did you submit just those two, or did you have a few more in the first round?

I submitted 4 to regionals and had 2 advance to finals.... and then both made mini BOS.... so, I am really pretty pleased that both were in the ballpark.

I agree about the mini BOS "notes"...... I know at that point, the judges are only really concerned with finding the top 3 and it is not about filling out an entire score sheet.  But it would be really great if there was a section for Mini BOS where the judges just wrote down one or two phrases that let you know what the key factor was that knocked your beer out (or set it apart enough to medal). 
For instance..... On a Helles Exportbier that I had in mini BOS...... something as simple as  "A bit too malty and needed more bitterness"  or even something as simple as "Beer was among the last couple, but the others just stood out more and were a bit better."   That would only take less than a minute to do, and would be insightful for the brewer going forward.

Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: mabrungard on July 14, 2018, 11:31:04 AM

I agree about the mini BOS "notes"...... I know at that point, the judges are only really concerned with finding the top 3 and it is not about filling out an entire score sheet.  But it would be really great if there was a section for Mini BOS where the judges just wrote down one or two phrases that let you know what the key factor was that knocked your beer out (or set it apart enough to medal). 


You're talking about comparing apples and oranges. There is little more that could be quickly conveyed other than your beer wasn't presenting itself better than the other beer(s). The beers are often different styles and variants.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: jeffy on July 14, 2018, 01:33:22 PM

I agree about the mini BOS "notes"...... I know at that point, the judges are only really concerned with finding the top 3 and it is not about filling out an entire score sheet.  But it would be really great if there was a section for Mini BOS where the judges just wrote down one or two phrases that let you know what the key factor was that knocked your beer out (or set it apart enough to medal). 


You're talking about comparing apples and oranges. There is little more that could be quickly conveyed other than your beer wasn't presenting itself better than the other beer(s). The beers are often different styles and variants.
No, Martin, it is pretty easy to have the steward or one of the judges make a few notes as each beer is eliminated from a BOS round.  (That is, if the format of eliminating is followed - I have seen some flights done by vote right from the start, but that’s not so common).  Simple notes, like “a little astringent” “not balanced” “slight medicinal phenolic” “too bitter” or even “better examples on the table”
Sending this back to the entrant gives him the opportunity to verify that his beer was actually judged in the mini BOS round and perhaps learn what to do to make it even better the next time.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 14, 2018, 03:21:40 PM

I agree about the mini BOS "notes"...... I know at that point, the judges are only really concerned with finding the top 3 and it is not about filling out an entire score sheet.  But it would be really great if there was a section for Mini BOS where the judges just wrote down one or two phrases that let you know what the key factor was that knocked your beer out (or set it apart enough to medal). 


You're talking about comparing apples and oranges. There is little more that could be quickly conveyed other than your beer wasn't presenting itself better than the other beer(s). The beers are often different styles and variants.

Sure, that could be the case, but that does not preclude the possibility of useful information being given with almost no effort/time required by the judges.  When it gets down to the finals at NHC and mini BOS, obviously all the beers are very good. 

However, it would still be potentially very useful to know if your beer was knocked out because of some technical aspect that was not as good as others or because of just the simple "intangibles."

Something like this could even be a "checkbox" on the score sheet.  I mean, there are really only 3 reasons you are not medalling if you made mini BOS......

1.) This individual bottle may have been flawed and not up to par with the bottle that was judged in the preliminary flight: Significant Flaw Observed:_________________
2.) While good, this beer fell a bit short in some technical area(s): _____________________
3.) This beer was one of our final choices, but there were simply some slightly better beers that we chose over yours - Great Job.

As a brewer, at least that lets me know if I should consider tweaking something in particular or stick with what I have been doing.  It would take no real time and gives the brewer some idea of what it might take to get the beer to the next level.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: narcout on July 14, 2018, 05:42:50 PM
Got mine as well..... Close but no cigar.  Glad they were at least in the hunt though:
Helles Exportbier =  40/42 Mini BOS. I think this is the third time to make mini BOS in this category-no medals :(
Dark Mild = 38/39

Hopefully get over the hump one of these years.

Damn, those are some nice scores.

My Dunkel got a 37, which I'm pretty happy with.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: BrewBama on July 14, 2018, 05:52:23 PM
Got mine as well..... Close but no cigar.  Glad they were at least in the hunt though:
Helles Exportbier =  40/42 Mini BOS. I think this is the third time to make mini BOS in this category-no medals :(
Dark Mild = 38/39

Hopefully get over the hump one of these years.

Damn, those are some nice scores.

My Dunkel got a 37, which I'm pretty happy with.

Nice scores all around. Good job folks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: riceral on July 14, 2018, 08:06:00 PM
Got mine as well..... Close but no cigar.  Glad they were at least in the hunt though:
Helles Exportbier =  40/42 Mini BOS. I think this is the third time to make mini BOS in this category-no medals :(
Dark Mild = 38/39

Hopefully get over the hump one of these years.

Damn, those are some nice scores.

My Dunkel got a 37, which I'm pretty happy with.

Nice scores all around. Good job folks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My British Brown I submitted to Austin received a 40 and pushed to mini-BOS. Didn't advance but I am still ecstatic with my score. I checked and it seems no British Browns advanced in that region and category.

Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: MDixon on July 15, 2018, 12:15:53 AM
Any notes made in a mini-BOS would slow the process significantly. In the NHC, the beer has been judged and has at least two sheets of information at that point. Asking to provide notes on each entry during a BOS or mini-BOS round would take minutes per entry. At the NHC the mini-BOS were handled as almost every other BOS round in the country. The beers were presented and quickly tasted for a first impression. This happens extremely quickly. In the case of the rounds I judged we removed beers until we could not remove any easily. Then we looked for the top three in most cases. Often at a BOS or mini-BOS the beer which is not discussed is the best of those presented or at least top three.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: jerryschoeb on July 15, 2018, 12:56:38 AM
I think this is a great competition. It has definitely helped me improve my beers. I was lucky enough to finish first in the first round with a score of 45.5. After the final round, my score was only 34. These were identical beers from the same batch bottled at the same time, and stored in a cold dark fridge. I got mixed feedback with my beer being both over carbonated and under carbonated. Too bitter, and malty and balanced. Having too much body, and needing more body. I expect some differences, but a 14 point total range seems a bit much.
Just wondering if anyone else has experienced inconsistent results and feedback.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: braufessor on July 15, 2018, 04:13:54 AM
I think this is a great competition. It has definitely helped me improve my beers. I was lucky enough to finish first in the first round with a score of 45.5. After the final round, my score was only 34. These were identical beers from the same batch bottled at the same time, and stored in a cold dark fridge. I got mixed feedback with my beer being both over carbonated and under carbonated. Too bitter, and malty and balanced. Having too much body, and needing more body. I expect some differences, but a 14 point total range seems a bit much.
Just wondering if anyone else has experienced inconsistent results and feedback.

What style of beer did you have???

Sounds like you did not rebrew it.  Depending on the style, that could easily result in a 10+ point drop - no matter how you stored it.  You are looking at a beer that was stored for 3-4 months....... which might make the beer 5-6 months from brew day.  That could be disaster in a lot of styles. 

Both of mine scored higher at the Finals than they did at the regional - but, I rebrewed both of them.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: jerryschoeb on July 15, 2018, 04:53:53 AM
Thanks for your feedback.  I entered an American Brown Ale. I did not rebrew, but will in the future. I honestly did not expect to make it past the first round and was pleasantly surprised when I received the score i did.Unfortunately I did not have time to brew another batch for the final round.
Some of the comments did not seem age related but seemed to vary by things that wouldn't change with time. (Carbonation, body)
The feedback was still good, it just didn't provide quite the direction i was hoping for.


Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 15, 2018, 12:46:14 PM
Thanks for your feedback.  I entered an American Brown Ale. I did not rebrew, but will in the future. I honestly did not expect to make it past the first round and was pleasantly surprised when I received the score i did.Unfortunately I did not have time to brew another batch for the final round.
Some of the comments did not seem age related but seemed to vary by things that wouldn't change with time. (Carbonation, body)
The feedback was still good, it just didn't provide quite the direction i was hoping for.




Inconsistent or incorrect feedback happens.  I am used to getting it with pale lagers in competitions.   A judge might detect diacetyl in a beer when there clearly is none, simply because of a process or ingredient that they are not familiar with.  That is frustrating, so I feel your pain. 

I am a BJCP judge and I judge several competitions per year and I know that some judges are hypercritical and narrow in their judging to the point that they really don’t know a whole lot about newer techniques and ingredients and will attribute a non existent flaw to a beer as a result of their limitations. I don’t hold it against them, I just don’t put much weight in their comments, however well intentioned they may be.

Here is an example:  a friend of mine got an 11 on a Pilsner in a competition.  The following week that same Beer took Best of Show at a larger competition.  It was not a case of a flawed bottle, because he was judging at the same competitions and drank from the low-scored bottle after the judging was completed, because he wanted to taste what flaws the judge had found - none were present.

Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: MDixon on July 15, 2018, 03:04:34 PM
In the case of first round and final round differences I would suggest a score of 45.5 may have been a bit high. The question then becomes the experience of the judges in each round. Often a set of judges is consistent with scores across a flight even if they are high and low. That is why the mini-BOS carried out as it was in the NHC second round will level the field.

As far as someone getting an 11, in most comps 13 is the courtesy low score. The beer would have to be completely awful to be an 11. Typically even an out of style entry would earn 20-29 depending upon how well it met the incorrect style. It sounds like it may have been a bottle infection. I had a buddy once who I judged his beer. One bottle was infected, the other was perfect. We scored it a 19 and had we been given the other bottle he would have been in the high 30s to low 40s because we sampled the bottle. He thought his cleaning and sanitation was perfect, but apparently the bottle we judged was not cleaned effectively. It was stated in this case the brewer drank from the bottle which was judged which seems to indicate the entrant was hovering over the judging. The question is why was the beer scored an 11?
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: mabrungard on July 15, 2018, 04:28:34 PM
I'll second the comment that most first round beers need to be rebrewed for the second round. Aged styles can obviously ignore that comment.

The other thing that I do to monitor temperature and packaging effects (to some degree), is to bottle an extra sample of beers that I send off to competition. Those beers are then chilled and sampled at about the same time as the competition to see if my samples are still in good shape. Of course, the variables that I can account for are the vibration during shipment and any temperatures that they experience. My stored samples just get stored at room temperature under my brewing bench.

That extra sample technique does help reveal inadequate packaging techique and the natural aging progression that exists for any beer. Your contest beers are not likely to be any better than your samples.   
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: jerryschoeb on July 15, 2018, 08:43:00 PM
So my take-away from this is to definitely re-brew between rounds, and try to control the conditions while shipping. Expect some variation in scores due to judges preferences.
But, going back to part of my original comments, shouldn't there be more consistency with respect to characteristics that would not be expected to change due to age, like carbonation, body, or balance?
FWIW, I find this competition one of the best ways for me to identify areas of improvement.  I myself have a cast iron tongue and have a hard time picking out subtle details that set beers apart.
My thanks to all the BJCP judges who dedicated their time to this competition.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: MDixon on July 15, 2018, 09:00:50 PM
Body and balance can change over time. Carbonation can lessen or increase based on a number of factors.

As far as feedback, enter local comps for more complete feedback, the NHC uses a score sheet which does not always provide the level of feedback one would get from an experienced judge at a local comp.
Title: Re: NHC Scoresheets
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 15, 2018, 10:55:40 PM
Packaging and handling issues are usually the culprit when a disparate result is received among competitions closely spaced in time, for sure.  But again, my friend happened to have the exact bottle that was judged (he was judging other styles and asked the steward to save the bottles that were judged, so he could try his entry).

He is a highly award winning homebrewer and I trust his palate.  He chalked it up to experience and human perception differences.  Setting aside the score, stated “flaws” that are not present is particularly annoying.  I have taken issue with a judging partner when the flaw found by the other judge is simply not present.  Thankfully, it is usually resolved by bringing in another judge to get his or her take on the matter.  Finally, I appreciate that a younger palate is likely more able to perceive things more sensitively than an old dog like me, but when it’s not there, it’s not there and it is okay to admit that judges, like umpires in baseball, sometimes miss the call.

Best of luck to the OP with his Brown Ale rebrew.