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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: soymateofeo on July 14, 2018, 09:39:28 PM

Title: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: soymateofeo on July 14, 2018, 09:39:28 PM
Howdy!
My IPAs have all been old school west coast style for the past ...  long time. I was wanting to get away from my 60-30-20-10-5 minute additions and try a bittering charge and whirlpool/dry hops for nice aroma and flavor.  But how much is enough and how much is too much? I asked my young LHBS guy and he said to start with this:
Bittering charge +
pales 2-3 oz whirlpool 2-3 dry hop
IPA 3-4 oz wp and 3-4 dh
DIPA 4-5 oz wp and 4-5 dh

seeing as that I don't know s***ake, any input would be huge. 

My goal is west coast bitter with big aroma and flavor.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: dmtaylor on July 14, 2018, 11:08:18 PM
Your LHBS guy is *exactly* right IMHO.  For 5 gallons.  Any more than those amounts, and you're wasting hops.  Any less, and you won't get the hop forward beer that you want.  Those are all the right numbers.

Cheers.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: tommymorris on July 15, 2018, 12:29:45 AM
I agree. I also add a bit at 1 minute. It might just be in my head, but, I think moving 1 ounce to a 1 minute addition makes a difference.


- formerly alestateyall.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: RC on July 15, 2018, 04:58:42 AM
Not a bad start, but IMHO way too little for IPAs. You'll get much better hoppiness from a WP/flameout and dry hop rate of 2-3# per bbl (each), which translates to 1.0-1.5 oz per gallon. More loss, but that's a tradeoff. I suggest a bittering charge at 60 min or even 30 min for all the IBUs. After flameout, bring the temp down to ~170, do a steep at this temp for 20-30 min with 3#/bbl. Use the same rate for dry hopping.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: soymateofeo on July 15, 2018, 05:47:55 AM


Not a bad start, but IMHO way too little for IPAs. You'll get much better hoppiness from a WP/flameout and dry hop rate of 2-3# per bbl (each), which translates to 1.0-1.5 oz per gallon. More loss, but that's a tradeoff. I suggest a bittering charge at 60 min or even 30 min for all the IBUs. After flameout, bring the temp down to ~170, do a steep at this temp for 20-30 min with 3#/bbl. Use the same rate for dry hopping.

ok so for a 5 gallon batch, that is bittering + 5-7oz wp+5-7oz. dh

Damn! thats a lot o hops.  time to start buying by the lb i guess!  =)
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: soymateofeo on July 15, 2018, 05:52:02 AM
i am going to start with those numbers from my guy at the shop and see what I get. i am going to bitter with some warrior or columbus and aroma/flavor with centennial and simcoe.  i like me some dank and cat pee.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: dmtaylor on July 15, 2018, 01:35:29 PM


Not a bad start, but IMHO way too little for IPAs. You'll get much better hoppiness from a WP/flameout and dry hop rate of 2-3# per bbl (each), which translates to 1.0-1.5 oz per gallon. More loss, but that's a tradeoff. I suggest a bittering charge at 60 min or even 30 min for all the IBUs. After flameout, bring the temp down to ~170, do a steep at this temp for 20-30 min with 3#/bbl. Use the same rate for dry hopping.

ok so for a 5 gallon batch, that is bittering + 5-7oz wp+5-7oz. dh

Damn! thats a lot o hops.  time to start buying by the lb i guess!  =)

I've seen data from commercial breweries that suggests they use the equivalent of 4-5 oz per 5 gallons at most.  Now maybe the New England guys use more, but I also don't like chunks of hops in my pint glass.  As for cat pee........ I've got 4 cats and some dirty litterboxes here, let me know if you'd like any or all of that.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: RC on July 15, 2018, 04:00:07 PM

I've seen data from commercial breweries that suggests they use the equivalent of 4-5 oz per 5 gallons at most.  Now maybe the New England guys use more, but I also don't like chunks of hops in my pint glass.  As for cat pee........ I've got 4 cats and some dirty litterboxes here, let me know if you'd like any or all of that.

In the region I live (Sacramento area), ~3#/bbl for dry hopping for IPAs is typical. And believe me, it makes a difference. Many homebrewers seem surprised when I suggest 9oz of dry hops for a 6-gallon batch (which is 3#/bbl, the rate I use for my IPAs). This is because they're used to seeing old recipes using, say, 2oz of dry hops per 5 gallon. But that's old school. Many good IPAs have been brewed this way, but again, where I live, breweries generally go much higher for their IPAs (I know this because until recently I was a brewer at one of them). As for chunks of hops, you don't get more hop particles from 3#/bbl vs. 1# or 2#/bbl, assuming a proper cold crash and transfer. More dry hops does not mean less settling, it just means more beer loss.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: erockrph on July 15, 2018, 05:11:20 PM
There are plenty of ways to skin a cat, and you can call all of them IPA in the end.

My personal preference for IPA's is 2-4 ounces per gallon at flameout with an extended hot whirlpool, and 1-2 ounces per gallon of dry hops. Yes, that's a lot of hops, but that's how I like it.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: soymateofeo on July 17, 2018, 01:39:01 AM
wow.  that is a grip of hops.  i will give those higher numbers a whirl. Things have changed but I likebvb that big aroma.  But i like my bitterness as well.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2018, 01:47:49 PM
I'll share what has given me an amazing burst of hop flavor: Recirculating dry hops for 12+ hours with a pump. I realize this isn't necessarily practical on the homebrew scale but man does it ever make a difference. After 12 hours recirc cold crash and package.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: RC on July 17, 2018, 02:59:09 PM
I'll share what has given me an amazing burst of hop flavor: Recirculating dry hops for 12+ hours with a pump. I realize this isn't necessarily practical on the homebrew scale but man does it ever make a difference. After 12 hours recirc cold crash and package.

We also did this where I worked. It added more hop punch for sure. To mimic this in my homebrew, I gently rock/swirl the carboy twice a day while on the dry hops. The goal is to gently break up the thick cap of hops on the surface and allow them to mix into the beer. Works pretty well.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: blatz on July 17, 2018, 07:42:01 PM
I'll share what has given me an amazing burst of hop flavor: Recirculating dry hops for 12+ hours with a pump. I realize this isn't necessarily practical on the homebrew scale but man does it ever make a difference. After 12 hours recirc cold crash and package.

wonder if it would be possible to recreate this technique at the homebrew level.  I have some ideas, but limiting O2 pickup would be hard.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2018, 08:08:27 PM
Maybe a self priming pump but you would have to get beer off yeast. Anyone who has a conical should certainly give it a go. A March pump would do the trick.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: Robert on July 17, 2018, 08:09:24 PM
How about containing the hops in a mesh container in a keg and periodically jumping the beer back and forth to another, à la torpedo?   Oxygen pickup at the outset would still be a problem. Maybe just flush that keg with CO2 the best you can.  Anyway it's just an idea you could play with.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: blatz on July 17, 2018, 08:13:32 PM
How about containing the hops in a mesh container in a keg and periodically jumping the beer back and forth to another, à la torpedo?   Oxygen pickup at the outset would still be a problem. Maybe just flush that keg with CO2 the best you can.  Anyway it's just an idea you could play with.
I use a sure screen (works better than a mesh bag and allows the hops to be commando rather than constrained).  I used to flip the keg every day to reagitate the hops, but got lazy and haven't done that in some time.  Since I make 10 gallon batches, a test of flipping (which would marginally simulate what keith is doing) one keg and not the other might be interesting to try out.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: Robert on July 17, 2018, 08:32:49 PM
How about containing the hops in a mesh container in a keg and periodically jumping the beer back and forth to another, à la torpedo?   Oxygen pickup at the outset would still be a problem. Maybe just flush that keg with CO2 the best you can.  Anyway it's just an idea you could play with.
I use a sure screen (works better than a mesh bag and allows the hops to be commando rather than constrained).  I used to flip the keg every day to reagitate the hops, but got lazy and haven't done that in some time.  Since I make 10 gallon batches, a test of flipping (which would marginally simulate what keith is doing) one keg and not the other might be interesting to try out.

Yeah that's way simpler.  I guess Keith can't really flip his tanks LOL,  recirc is the only option at that scale.  Maybe this is one of those cases where homebrewers are actually at an advantage.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: TANSTAAFB on July 18, 2018, 03:42:02 AM
I absolutely LOVE the new Cryo hops from YCH!!! I've used Citra and Mosaic so far and you can get a huge hop punch with less hop material, so you don't get any grassy, vegetal flavor from tossing a metric f@#k ton of hops in. I have gone to a small bittering charge as FWH and then everything else that was in my old recipes (those 30-15-5-0 additions) gets moved to the whirlpool. I chill to 170 and whirlpool for  about 30 minutes. That usually drops to around 150. They stay in the wort through chilling and runoff into the fermenter. I'm really digging the beers I'm making these days!

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Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 18, 2018, 11:53:23 AM
How about containing the hops in a mesh container in a keg and periodically jumping the beer back and forth to another, à la torpedo?   Oxygen pickup at the outset would still be a problem. Maybe just flush that keg with CO2 the best you can.  Anyway it's just an idea you could play with.
It is some time and effort, but I have had excellent results using my HopRocket as a torpedo, and transferbetween kegs. Receiving keg is purged. Load HopRocket with whole cone hops, purge the HopRocket and lines with CO2. Transfer beer slowly. You can then transfer back and forth between the kegs to get the exposure time to the hops. I think I did it 4 times and really liked the results.

I need to do this again. Finding whole cone hops has been hard of late, but my LHBS has some ounces in again. Time to do that technique again.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: majorvices on July 18, 2018, 05:25:21 PM
How about containing the hops in a mesh container in a keg and periodically jumping the beer back and forth to another, à la torpedo?   Oxygen pickup at the outset would still be a problem. Maybe just flush that keg with CO2 the best you can.  Anyway it's just an idea you could play with.
I use a sure screen (works better than a mesh bag and allows the hops to be commando rather than constrained).  I used to flip the keg every day to reagitate the hops, but got lazy and haven't done that in some time.  Since I make 10 gallon batches, a test of flipping (which would marginally simulate what keith is doing) one keg and not the other might be interesting to try out.

Yeah that's way simpler.  I guess Keith can't really flip his tanks LOL,  recirc is the only option at that scale.  Maybe this is one of those cases where homebrewers are actually at an advantage.

I think this is a case where having a conical has an advantage. But agree there are multiple ways to achieve the same ends.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: blatz on July 18, 2018, 05:27:01 PM
How about containing the hops in a mesh container in a keg and periodically jumping the beer back and forth to another, à la torpedo?   Oxygen pickup at the outset would still be a problem. Maybe just flush that keg with CO2 the best you can.  Anyway it's just an idea you could play with.
I use a sure screen (works better than a mesh bag and allows the hops to be commando rather than constrained).  I used to flip the keg every day to reagitate the hops, but got lazy and haven't done that in some time.  Since I make 10 gallon batches, a test of flipping (which would marginally simulate what keith is doing) one keg and not the other might be interesting to try out.

Yeah that's way simpler.  I guess Keith can't really flip his tanks LOL,  recirc is the only option at that scale.  Maybe this is one of those cases where homebrewers are actually at an advantage.

I think this is a case where having a conical has an advantage. But agree there are multiple ways to achieve the same ends.

I have a couple but yeast removal, at least with mine, is not satisfactory


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Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: majorvices on July 18, 2018, 06:11:04 PM


I have a couple but yeast removal, at least with mine, is not satisfactory


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Bummer! We have a little 14 gallon one at brewery maybe I'll play around with it soon.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: erockrph on July 19, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
My thought is that you could bubble in CO2 from the liquid-in on a corny keg to stir up the hops, let them settle, then repeat the process. It wouldn't quite be the same as a full-on recirc, but it would keep things moving around.
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: blatz on July 20, 2018, 02:39:09 PM
My thought is that you could bubble in CO2 from the liquid-in on a corny keg to stir up the hops, let them settle, then repeat the process. It wouldn't quite be the same as a full-on recirc, but it would keep things moving around.

I like that idea.  I will try that!
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: Robert on July 20, 2018, 06:20:23 PM
My thought is that you could bubble in CO2 from the liquid-in on a corny keg to stir up the hops, let them settle, then repeat the process. It wouldn't quite be the same as a full-on recirc, but it would keep things moving around.

I like that idea.  I will try that!
It's a trick I sometimes use to mix in finings.  Ought to mix anything.  Be careful though or you'll be foaming at the PRV!  :o
Title: Re: whirlpool/dry hops? how much?
Post by: denny on July 20, 2018, 06:26:09 PM
My thought is that you could bubble in CO2 from the liquid-in on a corny keg to stir up the hops, let them settle, then repeat the process. It wouldn't quite be the same as a full-on recirc, but it would keep things moving around.

I like that idea.  I will try that!
It's a trick I sometimes use to mix in finings.  Ought to mix anything.  Be careful though or you'll be foaming at the PRV!  :o

Sounds like Mixbot at Gigantic Brewing.