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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: tgfish on October 02, 2018, 08:17:14 am

Title: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: tgfish on October 02, 2018, 08:17:14 am
I've brewed quite a few Pilsners, Helles, and Festbiers over the last 2 years and have used a variety of yeasts; 34/70-WLP830-WY2124, WLP838, a blend of WLP830 & WLP838, WY2206, WY2308, and WLP835.

I was reading through past threads in this forum to learn about other's preferences for Czech / Bo Pils yeasts and came across S. Cerevisiae's multiple posts about Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains. From one of those posts:

Quote
Bavarian and Bohemian S. pastorianus yeast strains are very different genetically.  Bavarian strains belong to the Frohberg family.  Bohemian and Danish yeast strains belong to the Saaz family (Carlsberg Bottom Yeast No. 1 is a Saaz strain). The Frohberg strains are tetraploids (4n) with two sets of S. cerevisiae chromosomes and two sets of S. eubayanus chromosomes.  Saaz strains are triploids (3n) with one set of S. cerevisiae chromosomes and two sets of S. eubayanus chromosomes.   Saaz strains are more cold tolerant than Frohberg strains because cold tolerance is inherited from S. eubayanus, and Saaz strains are 2/3rds S. eubayanus genetically.
.....
I would go with a Saaz-type (Bohemian) yeast strain such as 2000, 2001, or 2278. Wyeast 2124 is Weihenstephan W-34/70, which is a Frohberg-type (Bavarian) yeast strain.

So for my next Bo Pils batch I would love to use a Saaz-type yeast strain but they seem a bit tougher to acquire with 2000 and 2001 as Wyeast Private Collection yeasts and then finding mixed reviews on this forum of the more readily available WY2278. May be able to find some WLP800 (WY2001 equivalent?).

I did a bit of unsuccessful Googling to find out more about Saaz-type strains so I'm wondering if anyone knows if any of the following are Saaz-type strains?

WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782

It's an interesting topic regardless, would love to hear more if anyone has more information.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 02, 2018, 08:55:54 am
Try these, and they are listed with some confidence.
WLP-800 Pilsner Urquell
WLP-802 Budvar

This a resource that has generally good info, but a couple are debateable.

http://www.mrmalty.com/white-labs.php
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: denny on October 02, 2018, 08:57:49 am
FWIW, I'm a big fan of 2278
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: dmtaylor on October 02, 2018, 09:00:02 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: tgfish on October 02, 2018, 09:03:25 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.

Whoa, I have not come across that yet. That would eliminate WLP800 from being a Saaz-type strain unless Saaz-type ale strains exist which I had not considered or heard of.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: tgfish on October 02, 2018, 09:09:43 am
FWIW, I'm a big fan of 2278

To be fair I think the negative reviews were only 1 or 2 threads, one with trouble with banana esters which seems to be an edge case. I should certainly try it for myself before ruling it out, especially if it's the easiest to obtain  ;D

What fermentation profile and pitching rate do you use with 2278 recently?

Do you have any notes on experiences with 2000, 2001, or 802 for comparison?
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: dmtaylor on October 02, 2018, 09:19:19 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.

Whoa, I have not come across that yet. That would eliminate WLP800 from being a Saaz-type strain unless Saaz-type ale strains exist which I had not considered or heard of.

You can learn much much more at the following link.......... more data here than my brain is able to absorb (so far anyway!):

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=3907
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 02, 2018, 09:21:25 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.
They pitch it at about 38F in the brewery. Pretty cold.

Yeah, there are some data that makes one take note. WLP-051 has been identified as a lager yeast, Who knew? The genome study said many lager strains are ales, and many ale strains are lagers. Someday there may be a write of on that.

tgfish, you could look into some other suppliers. Imperial Urkell is the PU strain if you are inclined. Omega yeast has many lager strains and you can figure out which is which from the descriptions.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: tgfish on October 02, 2018, 09:35:07 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.
They pitch it at about 38F in the brewery. Pretty cold.

Yeah, there are some data that makes one take note. WLP-051 has been identified as a lager yeast, Who knew? The genome study said many lager strains are ales, and many ale strains are lagers. Someday there may be a write of on that.

tgfish, you could look into some other suppliers. Imperial Urkell is the PU strain if you are inclined. Omega yeast has many lager strains and you can figure out which is which from the descriptions.

"They pitch", talking about PU?

Good point on Imperial and Omega, looks like some local shops do have Urkell in stock. Any idea if it's D or H strain? I reached out directly to them asking if they know explicitly if either of their Urkell and Harvest products are Saaz-type.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: tgfish on October 02, 2018, 09:36:15 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.

Whoa, I have not come across that yet. That would eliminate WLP800 from being a Saaz-type strain unless Saaz-type ale strains exist which I had not considered or heard of.

You can learn much much more at the following link.......... more data here than my brain is able to absorb (so far anyway!):

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=3907

Thanks! I already have a comment awaiting moderation  ;D
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 02, 2018, 09:46:36 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.
They pitch it at about 38F in the brewery. Pretty cold.

Yeah, there are some data that makes one take note. WLP-051 has been identified as a lager yeast, Who knew? The genome study said many lager strains are ales, and many ale strains are lagers. Someday there may be a write of on that.

tgfish, you could look into some other suppliers. Imperial Urkell is the PU strain if you are inclined. Omega yeast has many lager strains and you can figure out which is which from the descriptions.

"They pitch", talking about PU?

Good point on Imperial and Omega, looks like some local shops do have Urkell in stock. Any idea if it's D or H strain? I reached out directly to them asking if they know explicitly if either of their Urkell and Harvest products are Saaz-type.

Yes, PU, from the brewery tour.

Harvest is said to be the Augustener strain, so it is Frohberg.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: denny on October 02, 2018, 10:03:54 am
FWIW, I'm a big fan of 2278

To be fair I think the negative reviews were only 1 or 2 threads, one with trouble with banana esters which seems to be an edge case. I should certainly try it for myself before ruling it out, especially if it's the easiest to obtain  ;D

What fermentation profile and pitching rate do you use with 2278 recently?

Do you have any notes on experiences with 2000, 2001, or 802 for comparison?

Ferment between 51-55F.  I make a 2 qt. SNS starter.  I don't use yeast calculators or stir plates any more.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: denny on October 02, 2018, 10:05:01 am
Good information.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with WLP802, WY2002, and WY2782.

One thing I do know for sure:  Multiple recent genetics tests have determined the surprising result that WLP800 is actually 100% S. cerevisiae -- an ale yeast!  A cold-tolerant ale strain, to be sure, but anyway.

Whoa, I have not come across that yet. That would eliminate WLP800 from being a Saaz-type strain unless Saaz-type ale strains exist which I had not considered or heard of.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2673734/

http://allaboutbeer.com/article/the-family-tree-of-yeast/
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: Robert on October 02, 2018, 11:41:47 am
FWIW, I'm a big fan of 2278

To be fair I think the negative reviews were only 1 or 2 threads, one with trouble with banana esters which seems to be an edge case. I should certainly try it for myself before ruling it out, especially if it's the easiest to obtain  ;D

What fermentation profile and pitching rate do you use with 2278 recently?

Do you have any notes on experiences with 2000, 2001, or 802 for comparison?
Speaking of banana esters...  I have had beer from the Žateč (Saaz) brewery.  I don't know the relationship of their current yeast to that which lent its name to this class of yeasts.  But man, did it have banana for days!
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: tgfish on October 17, 2018, 08:08:42 pm
For future reference Imperial confirmed for me that L28 Urkel is 2278. Mr Malty says that's Pilsner Urquell strain D.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: JT on October 18, 2018, 06:14:30 pm
For future reference Imperial confirmed for me that L28 Urkel is 2278. Mr Malty says that's Pilsner Urquell strain D.
2278 is Pilsner Urquell strain D.
Edit: I read your post wrong.  I agree.  L28 = WY2278 = Pilsner Urquell D
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: Robert on October 18, 2018, 06:29:14 pm
WY2001/WLP800 is Urquell H strain, the one used alone since c.1990. 
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: Northern_Brewer on November 14, 2018, 02:49:32 pm
WY2001/WLP800 is Urquell H strain, the one used alone since c.1990. 

Do you have a source for WLP800 being H? I'm not doubting you (well - kinda surprised that of their 5 strains they chose the ale one) but it's always good to know where these equivalences came from.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: Robert on November 14, 2018, 04:21:49 pm
WY2001/WLP800 is Urquell H strain, the one used alone since c.1990. 

Do you have a source for WLP800 being H? I'm not doubting you (well - kinda surprised that of their 5 strains they chose the ale one) but it's always good to know where these equivalences came from.
Kristen England's table of yeast strain origins gives Urquell H as the source of WY2001 and WLP800, and in addition an article on Urquell in the May/August 1997 Brewing Techniques states that the H strain was the one chosen when they switched to a single strain fermentation.
Title: Re: Saaz-type vs Frohberg-type lager yeast strains
Post by: Northern_Brewer on November 14, 2018, 07:13:46 pm
Gotcha - it's all there on Kristen's list, you just need to cross-reference a bit. Not that his list is gospel truth, but it's a start. So Urquell is really a kolsch?  :o

I've just seen something that says 2278 is a pastorianus incidentally.