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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: trapae on December 09, 2018, 09:09:00 am

Title: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: trapae on December 09, 2018, 09:09:00 am
 I was thinking of pouring my dry hop additions in with my yeast.   Has anyone done this and any good or bad results? Since there’s no alcohol present yet, increased risk of contamination?
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: bigpete225 on December 09, 2018, 09:15:00 am
I have not dry hopped when pitching yeast but after 2-3 days durning high krausen for biotransformation. Should help result in haziness for NEIPA. I have my first attempt at this in fermenter now but seems like it worked. I’m not concerned with contamination.


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Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: goose on December 09, 2018, 09:41:47 am
Does doing this scrub a lot of the hop aroma out when the beer ferments?  That would be my concern.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: trapae on December 09, 2018, 10:02:58 am
 Good question. I am also very interested in hop taste longevity.  I don’t drink my beers all that quickly and my dry hopping fades. Trying to figure a way to have a more stable long-term taste.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: denny on December 09, 2018, 10:14:38 am
I prefer to get the beer away from the yeast before dry hopping.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: RC on December 09, 2018, 11:29:01 am
I was thinking of pouring my dry hop additions in with my yeast.   Has anyone done this and any good or bad results? Since there’s no alcohol present yet, increased risk of contamination?

I've done close to this. I once added the dry hops the day after pitching. Fermentation was well underway but it was also well before high krausen. This early dry hopping added a hop punch, but it wasn't as strong as what I get with more traditional dry hopping. Some scrubbing probably occurred but also a lot of the hop particles stayed atop the krausen foam and ended up on the sidewall when the krausen fell. So any benefit (and personally I don't think there is any) would be at least partially offset by these considerations.

I've tried most of the dry hopping permutations for a NEIPA. IMO, none of them make a superior beer compared to a traditional, single dry-hop charge after fermentation is over.

There's always some risk of contamination from dry hopping but it's probably very low, and it would be mitigated by healthy yeast and optimized wort.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: MNWayne on December 10, 2018, 07:21:23 am
I dry hop in the keg (in a bag) and the aroma is there until the end.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: goose on December 10, 2018, 07:49:38 am
I prefer to get the beer away from the yeast before dry hopping.

I have always done this as well, Denny.  However, when I made my most recent Black IPA, I dry hopped in the conical fermenter without first burping out the yeast.  I did this because I did not have room at the time to transfer to a secondary and the beer came out great, even won a medal with it.  But I still prefer to get the beer off the yeast before adding the dry hops.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: Visor on December 10, 2018, 08:45:01 am
I've had my best results dry hopping after cold crashing, but even then after a couple weeks beers with heavy late hopping are just a shadow of what they were when fresh. I'm sure there must be a way to keep those flavors and aromas longer, but I haven't found it [yet].
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: denny on December 10, 2018, 09:07:16 am
I've had my best results dry hopping after cold crashing, but even then after a couple weeks beers with heavy late hopping are just a shadow of what they were when fresh. I'm sure there must be a way to keep those flavors and aromas longer, but I haven't found it [yet].

I've found that using cryo hops for dry hopping helps a lot.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: Robert on December 10, 2018, 10:10:57 am
I've had my best results dry hopping after cold crashing, but even then after a couple weeks beers with heavy late hopping are just a shadow of what they were when fresh. I'm sure there must be a way to keep those flavors and aromas longer, but I haven't found it [yet].
Nobody's found the answer,  it seems.  British brewers generally won't supply dry hopped beers to accounts with insufficient turnover to finish the cask within four days. 
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: reverseapachemaster on December 10, 2018, 10:22:59 am
This is a supposedly common practice for hazy beers and people talk a lot about biotransformation bringing out new hop flavors. I know yeast can do things to hop flavor and aroma compounds; but I've never seen even a serious attempt at explaining why this happens with dry hopping during primary fermentation in any way that doesn't happen to hop compounds introduced through any post-boil additions (e.g. flameout, whirlpool).

Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: Robert on December 10, 2018, 10:28:19 am
I have one on tap right now, which, after hearing all this stuff about biotransformation, I fermented with WY1318 and dry hopped during active  fermentation.   It's hazy all right, but I can't say it has any distinctly different flavor I can identify,  and the aroma didn't stick around any longer than usual.   It's kind of boring really.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: Xoonz on December 10, 2018, 11:16:17 am
Brulosophy did an experiment on this and it turned out insignificant (dry hopped at high krausen vs end of fermentation)

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/ (http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/)
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: denny on December 10, 2018, 11:29:08 am
Brulosophy did an experiment on this and it turned out insignificant (dry hopped at high krausen vs end of fermentation)

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/ (http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/)

That's a data point, not a conclusion.  Although data points are good, too.  And insignificant in what regard?
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: Xoonz on December 10, 2018, 12:02:58 pm
Brulosophy did an experiment on this and it turned out insignificant (dry hopped at high krausen vs end of fermentation)

http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/ (http://brulosophy.com/2017/01/23/biotransformation-vs-standard-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/)

That's a data point, not a conclusion.  Although data points are good, too.  And insignificant in what regard?

I agree its a data point, good catch. Their taste tests were insignificant as participants could not reliably pick out the odd man out in the triangle test. Anecdotally they noticed the appearance was sightly different (clear vs hazy) but that's not something they tested..
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: trapae on December 10, 2018, 12:35:53 pm
Perhaps the only way to keep it (dryhop aroma/taste) around is dry hop in the keg.  Which I haven’t done yet. I usually end up just doing a massive whirl pool and that keeps the taste pretty stable with less of a chance of oxidation/staling
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: denny on December 10, 2018, 12:41:33 pm
Perhaps the only way to keep it (dryhop aroma/taste) around is dry hop in the keg.  Which I haven’t done yet. I usually end up just doing a massive whirl pool and that keeps the taste pretty stable with less of a chance of oxidation/staling

I do whirlpool and keg dry hop, both with cryo.  Currently have a Rye APA kegged 9/14 that still has huge hop flavor and aroma.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: Visor on December 11, 2018, 09:32:52 am
   Alas, kegging all my beer isn't an option, I normally have a dozen or more batches on hand, about half of which are dry hopped. I'm not sure if even a 20 cu.ft. keezer could accommodate that many kegs. Even if finances weren't an issue space constraints don't allow me that luxury so I bottle and use every tweak I can think of to keep my hoppy stuff as fresh as possible as long as possible.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 11, 2018, 11:46:45 am
I appreciate the expense angle of that many live kegs, but you can bottle from the keg, if you have a “slow mover”.  Even so, it is an expense to get started with kegs, admittedly.  I could never go back completely to bottling at this point, so maybe you are wiser than you think - once you keg....it’s hard to go back to bottling for anything but comps or gifting.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: davidpepin on December 14, 2018, 05:10:26 pm
I'm interested in this - I have a "NEIPA-style" IPA fermenting right now, and I did an addition at high krausen to get that biotransformation everyone is talking about. But the info on "when" it should be done is contradictory:
- when pitching yeast
- when the krausen is physically at its highest point
- when 50% attenuation is attained

I hear one thing (doing too soon will have the fermentation scrub the aroma), and its contrary (doing it too late will not have the benefits of biotransformation).

So... I did a big addition a bit more than 24 hours after pitching (fermentation had stated after about 18 hours), and I will do a second "traditional" dry hop soon.

We'll see how it turns out!
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: goose on December 15, 2018, 07:19:44 am
I'm interested in this - I have a "NEIPA-style" IPA fermenting right now, and I did an addition at high krausen to get that biotransformation everyone is talking about. But the info on "when" it should be done is contradictory:
- when pitching yeast
- when the krausen is physically at its highest point
- when 50% attenuation is attained

I hear one thing (doing too soon will have the fermentation scrub the aroma), and its contrary (doing it too late will not have the benefits of biotransformation).

So... I did a big addition a bit more than 24 hours after pitching (fermentation had stated after about 18 hours), and I will do a second "traditional" dry hop soon.

We'll see how it turns out!

Keep us in the loop, David.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: davidpepin on December 16, 2018, 06:10:06 am
I'll report back. I added 1.5 oz of dry hop yesterday morning.

This is my first brew with the SS Brewbucket. I was hoping to do a closed transfer with CO2 to minimize O2, but there is so much hop particles in this beer (even before the last dry hop) that I'm not sure if if will work.

- If I cold crash, there is a risk of oxygenation, and the trub/hop at the bottom may be over the dip tube
- I I don't cold crash, I'm not sure how the transfer will go (so much hops at the top), and there may be tons of hops in the keg (which may or may not be a problem).

I will likely keg tomorrow on Tuesday.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: davidpepin on December 19, 2018, 05:04:57 am
I kegged this beer 2 days ago. I had some issues because of the amount of hop particles, but it went ok.

The taste of the sample was really good. I will post the full recipe on my blog once it's carbonated and I can say I'm satisfied with it. I used 4 hopping techniques:
- a small (0.25 oz) of Warrior as FWH
- a huge 10-min whirlpool addition after wort was cooled below 185F (Citra, Simcoe, Amarillo, Mosaic), 6 oz in total)
- dry hop at high krausen (Simcoe and Mosaic, 1.5 oz each)
- 1.5 oz Citra as a "conventional" dry hop (3 days prior to kegging)

So far, the hop aroma seems to be very good. Maybe just a tad too bitter, but it may somewhat mellow.
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: davidpepin on December 22, 2018, 07:24:33 am
So, here's the recipe for that brew that had some hops at high krausen:
https://desgrainsauverre.com/2018/12/22/neipa-days-of-haze/

I'm very happy with it!
Title: Re: Dry hopping during active primary fermentation?
Post by: charlie on December 24, 2018, 03:28:15 pm
I dry hopped in the primary one time. The brew room smelled great, the beer not so much.

Charlie