Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Extract/Partial Mash Brewing => Topic started by: garyg on November 02, 2009, 04:53:15 PM

Title: Extract and DMS
Post by: garyg on November 02, 2009, 04:53:15 PM
In the process of making malt extract, wort goes through a boiling process (albeit a low temp, low pressure boil) to remove water from the wort and concentrate it into extract.  Does that process drive off DMS in the resulting extact?  In other words, does extract need to be boiled the same as all-grain wort in order to avoid DMS in the finished beer?
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: denny on November 02, 2009, 05:48:40 PM
That's a great question, Gary!  I have no absolute knowledge or evidence, but a SWAG would be that extract manufacturing removes the SMM, which is the precursor to DMS.  It sure would be great to have some real evidence, though.
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: Kaiser on November 04, 2009, 03:48:27 AM
What I would be concerned with is the extend to which DMS-P or SMM is converted to DMS during the extract production. Once DMS is formed, it is quickly evaporated especially since extract production evaporates all or most of the water. The remaining DMS-P concentration is a function of initial concentration (determined by the malt that was used), temperature and time and while I'm not an extract manufacturer, if I were one my first goal would be to minimize the energy used to make the extract. Essentially this means that I would minimize the boiling that is necessary.

As a result I would expect that there is a need to boil extract to make sure the amount of DMS precursor in the wort at flame-out is sufficiently low that you won't get excessive DMS formation between then and cooling. The amount of boiling necessary should however be less than what you would need for a comparable AG batch.

So much for the theory. I have little practical experience with using extract.

Kai
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: dontblake on November 04, 2009, 07:49:56 PM
Maybe we can ask the folks at Briess what the SMM level is in their pilsener extract (the lightest stuff I've found).
In my practical experience, I've found that an hour boil is fine (i.e. no DMS off-flavors) when I do extract batches.

I seem to remember a Jamil show where that topic was discussed and the advice was that for extract batches, an extended boil wasn't necessary to drive off the SMM.

Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: richt on November 05, 2009, 04:49:42 PM
No science here, but I went through three 50 pound bags of Briess Pilsen DME plus countless other little bags before I made the switch and never had an issue and never did more than a 60 minute boil.
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: dhacker on November 06, 2009, 01:59:53 PM
I've seen a number of recipes that instruct extract additions in the last 15 minutes of a boil . . In fact, there's a whole slew of recipes in the July/ August BYO that say to add the LME at the end of the boil and simply let stand for 5 minutes before chilling.

FWIW
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: richt on November 06, 2009, 02:51:31 PM
Good point dhacker, the last 2 years or so of my extract brewing included late additions and still no issues.
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: Kaiser on November 06, 2009, 06:46:35 PM
Does someone know why that is? I.e. is the amount of late addition extract too little or is the amount of DMS precursor in malt very low to begin with?

I don’t say that it shouldn’t work. I’m just curious is anyone has some additional insight.

Kai
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: homebrewdad on November 06, 2009, 10:18:02 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, the biggest reason for late extract additions is to reduce the darkening/Maillard reactions that can occur with extended boiling of the wort.
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: bonjour on November 07, 2009, 01:05:05 AM
And increase hop utilization specially on brews with a less than full volume boil.

Fred
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: nyakavt on November 10, 2009, 12:59:53 PM
Does someone know why that is? I.e. is the amount of late addition extract too little or is the amount of DMS precursor in malt very low to begin with?

I don’t say that it shouldn’t work. I’m just curious is anyone has some additional insight.

Kai


Could it be that the base malt used in the extract is a bit darker than Pilsener, or that the varieties of barley used to make extract have inherently less SMM than continental Pilsener malt? 

I have had one beer with DMS, it was a maibock with lots of pilsener malt, a 60 minute boil, and problems with the chiller.  A friend made an Oktoberfest extract beer that was reeking of cooked corn or cabbage, he used Pilsener extract and boiled with the lid on.  Unfortunately, he did not have the best control on fermentation temperature, so I can't say the problem was isolated to the extract.
Title: Re: Extract and DMS
Post by: Kaiser on November 18, 2009, 04:15:54 PM
A friend made an Oktoberfest extract beer that was reeking of cooked corn or cabbage, he used Pilsener extract and boiled with the lid on.  Unfortunately, he did not have the best control on fermentation temperature, so I can't say the problem was isolated to the extract.

I think the lid during the boil is to blame for his DMS problem. Aside from that I don't have much to add to this though I'm curious where the line is at which you may get too much DMS in the cooled wort. Variables would be type of extract, amount of late addition extract, boil time and chill time.

Kai