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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: troy@uk on August 16, 2010, 05:25:40 AM

Title: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: troy@uk on August 16, 2010, 05:25:40 AM
If I am batch sparging and miss 170* as my mash out temp and for my second run, what kind of damage did I do?  I added 170* water for my second run and the temp only settled in at 162*, I got lazy and went ahead and ran it.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: tschmidlin on August 16, 2010, 05:45:14 AM
Did you hit your gravity?  That's all you need to worry about.  You can supplement in the boil with extract or some other sugar if you're too low.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: Jimmy K on August 16, 2010, 10:18:42 AM
No damage. Some brewers skip mash-out when batch sparging so that any last little bits of conversion take place, even after the wort is drained.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: Hokerer on August 16, 2010, 01:42:24 PM
No damage at all.  Mashout just isn't that critical.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: bonjour on August 16, 2010, 02:03:22 PM
The beer is destroyed, possibly toxic,  you MUST send it to me for proper disposal. 

Obviously I'm kidding.  Sounds like a normal brew to me.

I'm one of those who normally skip the mashout.

Fred
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: wingnut on August 16, 2010, 02:21:57 PM
Not hitting 170 for mash out is not critical AT ALL.

Essentially, heating to 170 does two things.  One, denatures Enzymes. Two, thins the mash (kind of like heating honey or syrup).

Since you mashed to full conversion, there were no more sugars for the enzymes to work on any way, and as for the slightly thicker consistency of the wort... so you leave behind a tiny percentage of sugars, or sparging takes an extra 30 seconds...  At the 5 gal level, the benefits of mashing out at 170 are negligible. 

In fact, I usually do not mash out.  When everything is converted, I drain the wort or sparge.  I do not want to risk getting above 170, where some noticeable tannin extraction becomes possible, and besides, it shaves 20 minutes off of my brewday.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: bonjour on August 16, 2010, 02:48:38 PM
Not hitting 170 for mash out is not critical AT ALL.

Essentially, heating to 170 does two things.  One, denatures Enzymes. Two, thins the mash (kind of like heating honey or syrup).

Since you mashed to full conversion, there were no more sugars for the enzymes to work on any way, and as for the slightly thicker consistency of the wort... so you leave behind a tiny percentage of sugars, or sparging takes an extra 30 seconds...  At the 5 gal level, the benefits of mashing out at 170 are negligible. 

In fact, I usually do not mash out.  When everything is converted, I drain the wort or sparge.  I do not want to risk getting above 170, where some noticeable tannin extraction becomes possible, and besides, it shaves 20 minutes off of my brewday.

Continued mashing will continue to breakdown long-chain "converted" sugars or dextrines into small chain simple or fermentable sugars until the enzymes are denatured (in the kettle without a mash-out step.) This is something I take advantage of for achieving high attenuation in my big beers.  I'll mash for two hours + at times for this reason.  For your beers not a big deal, but the enzymes are still doing there thing after the 15-20 minutes it takes to "convert" the starches to sugars.

Fred
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: denny on August 16, 2010, 03:52:16 PM
In fact, I usually do not mash out.  When everything is converted, I drain the wort or sparge.  I do not want to risk getting above 170, where some noticeable tannin extraction becomes possible, and besides, it shaves 20 minutes off of my brewday.


pH is much more of a factor than temperature.  If your pH is in line, you can boil the grains with no ill effects...hence, decoctions!
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: freddy2 on August 17, 2010, 03:14:23 AM
I've always mashed long and I've never checked ph.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: tschmidlin on August 17, 2010, 04:27:16 AM
I've always mashed long and I've never checked ph.
Denny was talking about pH and temperature - you can boil grains and not get tannin extraction as long as your pH is in the normal mash range.  If it is higher, like towards the end of sparging, then you can get tannin extraction above 170F or even lower.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: tubercle on August 17, 2010, 04:41:43 AM
Don't worry about it as long as you are batch sparging, as you should be.

 Mash out will be in the boil kettle 8)
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: dhacker on August 17, 2010, 11:36:56 AM
Continued mashing will continue to breakdown long-chain "converted" sugars or dextrines into small chain simple or fermentable sugars until the enzymes are denatured (in the kettle without a mash-out step.) This is something I take advantage of for achieving high attenuation in my big beers.  I'll mash for two hours + at times for this reason.  For your beers not a big deal, but the enzymes are still doing there thing after the 15-20 minutes it takes to "convert" the starches to sugars.

Fred

For years I've mashed 60-75 minutes for all of my beers. I have noticed some of the bigger ones tend to be a little sweeter than I'd like. Is there a formula or graph you use to determine mash time vs. OG/ attenuation ratio?
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: gordonstrong on August 17, 2010, 12:33:22 PM
Are they sweeter than you like or are you not getting the attenuation you expect?

You could be getting expected attenuation but just not like the level of sugar that represents in a big beer.  If you start big, you finish big.  That's why you don't make a tripel like you make a barleywine.  You can get the same ABV but if you want to control the sweetness, start smaller and/or use sugar.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: dhacker on August 17, 2010, 01:35:25 PM
Good point . . I'm getting the expected attenuation, just some residual sweetness that I'd like to be more muted.
Title: Re: Missed Mash out Temp
Post by: bonjour on August 17, 2010, 01:39:32 PM
Gordon makes some good points, I get 5-8 points additional attenuation from the longer mash on my system.  Nothing like a Strong Scotch Ale mashed at 148F for 2.5 hours.

Fred