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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: gws on January 31, 2019, 12:23:25 pm

Title: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: gws on January 31, 2019, 12:23:25 pm
I just noticed that DMT shared his yeast comparison chart as a part of another thread. But I think perhaps it should have its own so that we can discuss. I am particularly interested in how DMT and friends came up with the comparisons, and what the color-coding means, etc.

The source papers cited are abstracted from the brewing strains in the sense that they don't say, 'here is the genomic data for Wyeast 1056 and WLP 001', so how did you guys go about figuring that part out?

Link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CEl1_Fb8CgQcAqbFNETgOwH5BWx3bTqEt0kEpV-O5OM/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on January 31, 2019, 12:35:34 pm
For some background, there was this thread
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=31732.0

And much of the process is available directly or in references and, especially comments, in a couple of articles on Kristoffer Krogerus'  blog Suregork Loves Beer, cited in Dave's references: http://beer.suregork.com/

Those two starting points should get you well down the rabbit hole.   

And you're right, now that Dave has collated so much of this information into a concise form that should facilitate further discussion,  a new thread is a good idea.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on January 31, 2019, 03:36:04 pm
Thanks, gws, for the new thread.

Primary sources were the ancient list from Kristen England on MrMalty.com, and from there dozens of hours of digestion by myself and by suregork and qq on the suregork website of the Gallone and Fay genomic research results.  One magic bullet was when suregork figured out that nearly all the White Labs strains were numbered in order in the Gallone study.  Without that magic key, we wouldn't be talking so much like this here today.

Beyond all those sources, I've brewed a good ~150 batches with many many different yeasts over the years, and so I've incorporated some of my own real-world experiences including attenuation and flavor data to help figure out which ones were which.  And beyond that, well, I used my own intuitive thinking to try to figure others out.  Am I right on all my guesses?  Hell no.  Am I pretty damn close on most of them?  You be the judge.

The color coding means essentially nothing.  It had some meaning to me personally once upon a time, but now, not so much.  I should probably clear all that out to avoid confusion.  The yellow ones are slightly useful in that they are all 50/50 odds of one match versus another.

Special note that I should add to the sheet:  These matches aren't all 100% identical.  Divergent evolution will happen when multiple manufacturers source the same yeast strains.  And some might have sourced theirs 50 years ago, some 15 years ago, some within the last couple years.  I have no way of knowing when they sourced their stuff, and frankly, nor do I care.  I figure, sometimes good enough really is good enough.  And that was my goal with all of this:  Good enough.  I thought it was at a point that's good enough for most intents and purposes.  Is it good enough for you?  Again, you be the judge.  I'm just sharing because I think it's the right thing to do.

Sorry that I don't have a better website or blog site to put it on, and I don't intend to.  Maybe one day.  I dunno.  I'm just a dork.  I don't really care to publicize it or fancy it up all that much.  It is what it is.  Take it for what it is... one guy's obsessive intuitive list of stuff that might be equivalent, and hopefully a vast improvement of what was previously available out there.  That was my selfish goal.  If others can benefit, great.  If not, oh well.

Cheers.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Frankenbrew on February 01, 2019, 07:35:34 pm
In any or all of those cases, you seem to have found your niche, so follow it, and see where it leads. We will all benefit, I'm sure.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on February 04, 2019, 06:20:32 pm
Dave,

Any interesting insight to share on how you have decided to split BRY-97 off all on its own?  Last I recall you thought it might be closely related or even "equivalent" to at least one other.

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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on February 04, 2019, 07:20:53 pm
Dave,

Any interesting insight to share on how you have decided to split BRY-97 off all on its own?  Last I recall you thought it might be closely related or even "equivalent" to at least one other.

The new Fay study found this out:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7919/33113325118_76dd53ea5c_z.jpg)

http://beer.suregork.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Brewing_yeast_family_tree_nov_2018_v11.pdf

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4030

BRY-97 is miles away from any English yeasts besides Munton's and Windsor... all of which seem to have far more in common with bread yeasts, and NOTHING to do with the typical WLP002/007 or American stuff.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: BrewBama on February 04, 2019, 07:43:02 pm
I’m not sure I understand how to properly read this chart. For example is it saying Windsor and S-33 are the same or are related?


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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on February 04, 2019, 07:43:10 pm
I had seen where BRY-97 (surprisingly?) fits on the tree.  So I guess the question more accurately is, how do you identify 019 and 1272 and distinguish them from BRY-97?   I don't see them on the tree, and don't recall seeing any hints in the comments on suregork's blog.  (But I've missed things there before.)  At least we're miles away from the notion of a connection between 051, 1272, and 97 that still gripped us so recently.   As far as 051 is concerned, that is.

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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on February 04, 2019, 07:46:32 pm
I’m not sure I understand how to properly read this chart. For example is it saying Windsor and S-33 are the same or are related?

They are very very closely related.  My table is intended to indicate "equivalency", in a very general sense.  Whether these yeasts are in fact "equivalent" depends on performance and subjective opinion.  In my opinion, they are "close enough".  That's all I was ever going for: "close enough".  But they are indeed extremely closely related.  Like sisters, or mother & daughter.  Very very close.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on February 04, 2019, 07:46:49 pm
I’m not sure I understand how to properly read this chart. For example is it saying Windsor and S-33 are the same or are related?


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If two strains have separate places on the tree, they're different -- now.  But they may have evolved divergently just since the two labs acquired the same original culture. 

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Title: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: BrewBama on February 04, 2019, 07:51:51 pm
‘Close enough’ has a home in my brewery. Thanks!

It will be interesting to see if they add Mangrove Jacks strains as well as Imperial and others over time.

Edit: the rumor is MJ rebrand Lallemand and Fermentis (and others) into their MJ product line. So they do not offer any new yeast strains that are not already purchasable from their competitors.

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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on February 04, 2019, 07:54:32 pm
I had seen where BRY-97 (surprisingly?) fits on the tree.  So I guess the question more accurately is, how do you identify 019 and 1272 and distinguish them from BRY-97?   I don't see them on the tree, and don't recall seeing any hints in the comments on suregork's blog.  (But I've missed things there before.)  At least we're miles away from the notion of a connection between 051, 1272, and 97 that still gripped us so recently.   As far as 051 is concerned, that is.

There is yet another study that qq references at bottom of the first link.... 1272 is linked to WLP002 in second link:

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4000

https://www.biorxiv.org/sites/all/libraries/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=/content/biorxiv/early/2017/09/27/194969.full.pdf#page=29

I'm having a hard time digging up how I figured out WLP019 and 1272 might be equivalent.  Maybe they're not.  Try a side by side experiment and let me know your results!?
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on February 04, 2019, 08:01:22 pm
I think this may apply to both posts #11 and #12...  The caveat that "close enough" or "equivalent," thanks to that divergence in the hands of two labs, means they may not perform the same at all.  One of the takeaways I had from the big thread last year was, it's informative to know the genetics and provenance of yeast strains, but not dispositive.   Each strain from each manufacturer really needs to be evaluated on its own.

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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on February 04, 2019, 08:03:13 pm
I think this may apply to both posts #11 and #12...  The caveat that "close enough" or "equivalent," thanks to that divergence in the hands of two labs, means they may not perform the same at all.  One of the takeaways I had from the big thread last year was, it's informative to know the genetics and provenance of yeast strains, but not dispositive.   Each strain from each manufacturer really needs to be evaluated on its own.

I really can't argue with that.  Certainly many of the so-called equivalents aren't much alike at all.  However, I haven't used them all yet side by side to know for sure which ones aren't!  :)
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on February 04, 2019, 08:06:13 pm
I had seen where BRY-97 (surprisingly?) fits on the tree.  So I guess the question more accurately is, how do you identify 019 and 1272 and distinguish them from BRY-97?   I don't see them on the tree, and don't recall seeing any hints in the comments on suregork's blog.  (But I've missed things there before.)  At least we're miles away from the notion of a connection between 051, 1272, and 97 that still gripped us so recently.   As far as 051 is concerned, that is.

There is yet another study that qq references at bottom of the first link.... 1272 is linked to WLP002 in second link:

http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4000

https://www.biorxiv.org/sites/all/libraries/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=/content/biorxiv/early/2017/09/27/194969.full.pdf#page=29

I'm having a hard time digging up how I figured out WLP019 and 1272 might be equivalent.  Maybe they're not.  Try a side by side experiment and let me know your results!?
Thanks, I do keep missing or forgetting things.  I forgot about the Preiss, et al. paper, I guess I had seen where they place 1272.  That's taken care of at least.   I think my brain has been scrambled from staring at these dendrographs for too many hours.   ;)

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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: BrewBama on February 04, 2019, 09:02:01 pm
In the comments Suregork says. ”... that even though strains are closely related, they may still differ phenotypically (especially on the aroma side as you mention). The tree can still be useful for finding substitutes though, but should of course not be trusted blindly.”


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Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Chino Brews on April 07, 2019, 08:29:55 pm
Hey, nice work dmtaylor!

A couple pairs of strains that Kris equated but are not the same:

1187/WLP 005 -- Both are supposedly single-strain isolates from Ringwood. But Ringwood is a multi-strain culture and these are definitely not the same yeast.

1187's history is that Wyeast had 1187 Ringwood Ale and also 1742 Swedish Porter. 1742 was from the famed Carnegie Porter (Pripp's). Kris even says that in his chart. But then when Wyeast sequenced 1187 and 1742, it turned out they are the same, and Wyeast ended up discontinuing 1742. It's not surprising that the same strain ended up in Ringwood and in the Carnegie brewery, because yeast lending and trading was common in the British Isles, and the entrepreneur who owned Carnegie (David Carnegie) was back and forth between Scotland and Sweden.

If you read the yeast specs, it's clear that the performance specs are quire different. White Labs admits that WLP005 is adapted for conical fermentation. Meanwhile, 1187 is the yeast that brewpubs in the 1980s and 1990s loved for its legendary speed (fermentation kinetics and clearing) and expressive ale character, and it doesn't take much experimentation to realize it does in open fermentation and would likely do poorly in conicals.

1178/WLP028 - maybe this one is a bit closer call. Doubtless they both came from McEwan's. It just seems based on fermentation performance and flavor profile that for whatever reason, selection of individuals for the master culture, drift, or something else, these are nowhere near identical strains. 1178 is adapted to very cold fermentation, can ferment (slowly) at even lager fermentation temps (50-55°C), and from what I've heard it seems more closely adapted to what modern Scottish breweries are doing. WLP028, on the other hand, won't ferment as cool and is not as clean at any temperature. The other interesting thing is that 1178 is a great IPA yeast and plays well with hops, while WLP028 seems to diminish hop character (maybe due to flocculation characteristics). Anyway, this is a tougher call to claim the two strains are completely differentiated -- but they've certainly drifted apart quite a bit.

Anyway, I appreciate your keeping the chart up to day. Cheers!
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on September 15, 2019, 07:24:53 am
I might as well set this here, since someone on another forum asked for it.  Yes, I've been maintaining my list regularly, but hadn't published an updated version since January... until now I suppose. Here's the latest including what little I know about the newest studies just came out this month:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14zvCCukT0xiTN2sWtTNa3ptHlBaPstRa/view?usp=sharing

OR

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nwVema5Y8kuGbTR_vlz6gzU-KCngFYWjrAJO44xjwfA/edit?usp=sharing

(pick the Google version you prefer)

Primary references for the newest updates found here -- I believe we might have already had an AHA thread here on it as well, and if not, well now we do:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/interesting-genome-sequencing-of-some-yeasts.670056/

Interestingly, 1187 Ringwood is most likely a pastorianus strain.  Nobody saw that one coming!  And so is WLP029 Kolsch.  That one makes more sense.  And WLP838 lager might be a cerevisiae strain!?  Yikes.  etc.

My spreadsheet is compiled mainly for my own personal gratification. I don't blog, don't have a website, don't really care what people think of it. But if it can help anybody out, please enjoy and feel free to share. :)

Cheers all.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on September 15, 2019, 01:15:13 pm
Thanks for keeping it updated, Dave!  I think you'll be kinda busy here in the next few months...
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: goose on September 17, 2019, 07:55:38 am
Kudos, Dave!  You have done an immense amount of work to create this yeast chart.  Thank you for that!
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: charlie on September 18, 2019, 12:27:01 pm
Does anyone have info on Bells House Yeast? I have used it for a 2HA clone and (accidentally) for an SNPA clone. The 2HA clone turned out excellent, and I'll get a taste of the SNPA clone this evening.

The yeast is very flocculent, and the appearance of the starters (clumpy) and the yeast mud in the bottom of the fermentor leads me to believe its origin is English. Overall its behavior is much like WLP-007.

Charlie
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 18, 2019, 01:44:00 pm
Bell's yeast is not Chico, as some claim. It ferments with a big krausen, produces an orange ester, and only goes to 11% ABV.
Those that have talked to Larry said his reply was that when he started there were only 3 or 4 yeasts out there, andbitbismone of them. My vote goes to an English strain, which one?
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 18, 2019, 01:45:08 pm
Bell's yeast is not Chico, as some claim. It ferments with a big krausen, produces an orange ester, and only goes to 11% ABV.
Those that have talked to Larry said his reply was that when he started there were only 3 or 4 yeasts out there, andbitbismone of them. My vote goes to an English strain, which one?

Imperial has the Bell's house yeast, only sell it at the general store.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on September 18, 2019, 04:11:05 pm
My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on September 18, 2019, 04:17:49 pm
My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.
Similar in the big mess of fluff in the bottle as well.  I'd never have thought in that direction, but it is worth considering.   Whatever the origin, it has surely changed significantly in Bell's hands. 
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 18, 2019, 04:56:06 pm
My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Was Cooper's available in the Homebrew trade in 1985? Or when Larry started his Homebrew shop?

I started in 1992, Cooper's was around then.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Robert on September 18, 2019, 05:11:49 pm
My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Was Cooper's available in the Homebrew trade in 1985? Or when Larry started his Homebrew shop?

I started in 1992, Cooper's was around then.
This suggests it's possible  https://coopers.com.au/diy-beer
Started exporting in '82
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 18, 2019, 05:21:25 pm
My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Maybe it will go through genetic ID, the we know for sure what it is close to?
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on September 18, 2019, 09:19:20 pm
My own guess is that Bell's yeast might be a derivative of Cooper's.  But I could be way off on this of course.  It's only a guess.  Based on fruity esters.  Personally I've picked up pineapple and citrus-like esters in both Cooper's and Bell's beers... some of the time... occasionally... maybe.

Maybe it will go through genetic ID, the we know for sure what it is close to?

Not that I've been able to discern yet.  But of course anything's possible.
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: charlie on September 19, 2019, 05:15:17 pm
I googled it and found a post by 303 Brews on this forum that says; "I'm using the Inland Island Eccentric ale, which is the Bell's house strain.". Interesting!

My 2HA clone pulled an astonishing FG of 0.8 Plato (temperature corrected). That translates to 1.003 SG, and I have never come close to 1.003 before! The lowest I had previously seen was 1.005, and that only happens once in a blue moon.

The SNPA clone I used the yeast on only got down to 1.006. lol

Charlie
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: dmtaylor on October 25, 2019, 09:39:33 am
To the best of my own abilities and with very low volume fanfare, I have absorbed and processed the latest data from Langdon et al. and suregork in a new living permalink here (and it also includes a handful of other tweaks) -- for convenience the latest July-October 2019 genomic-related updates have been highlighted in purple:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing

This is a tool and labour of love, intended mostly for my own use, but if you like it that's cool too.  The usual caveats apply... strains listed together are not necessarily exactly equivalent... however, you might perhaps find them "close enough, for most intents and purposes", which has always been my primary intent.  If you don't like this or find it useful, ignore it.  For those interested, from here on out I am going to attempt to maintain the link above as the final permanent link, as a living document, no longer just a snapshot in time, but continually being tweaked at least about once or twice per month or as necessary based on new inputs, which is how it's been going all year long since I started this in January 2019.

Cheers all and happy yeasting.  :)
Title: Re: dmtaylor's yeast chart
Post by: Frankenbrew on October 27, 2019, 02:24:43 pm
Excellent, Dave! Thank you for putting all of this new information in a nice, understandable format.