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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 09:56:10 am

Title: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 09:56:10 am
REVISED - 5/20/2020

Here are the previous posts where we dug deep into the topic:

"Rochefort 4":
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=26158.45

"Rochefort 6 Clone":
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=30994.0

Here is my detailed writeup on the subject:

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=717
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: narvin on February 07, 2019, 11:35:36 am
Curious about the yeast.  In general I've never been much of a fan of White Labs 540.  I had better results cropping and reusing from a lower gravity batch, then making an 8/10.  Checking White Labs website now says "This strain may benefit from extra oxygen", but the brewery doesn't do open fermentations or rousing like a british top cropping strain.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 11:47:47 am
Curious about the yeast.  In general I've never been much of a fan of White Labs 540.  I had better results cropping and reusing from a lower gravity batch, then making an 8/10.  Checking White Labs website now says "This strain may benefit from extra oxygen", but the brewery doesn't do open fermentations or rousing like a british top cropping strain.

I prefer 1762.

With that said, you should key in on the following:

"They brew two batches each day Tuesday to Thursday, and one on Friday morning. All seven of those batches go into the same fermenter, right on top of each other."

Each subsequent batch is being pitched, with yeast, on top of an already fermenting batch. Their yeast is conditioned for that, which could also explain why people report that 1762 in particular benfits from a few repitches before hitting it's stride.

Another cool thing to notice is the pitch rates:

6 = 0.86 10⁶/ml/°P
8 = 0.79 10⁶/ml/°P
10 = 0.66 10⁶/ml/°P

Most would look at that and say, "How the hell do they get away with a LOWER pitch rate for the 10?

Since we know that they repitch in order (slurry from the 6 into the 8 and 8 into the 10), and that they are performing a sort of drauflassen, you can imagine that by the time that stuff hits the 10, it's at what Duane Allman would have referred to as "full tilt boogie", i.e. very healthy.

Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: narcout on February 07, 2019, 11:49:24 am
Have you brewed any of these yourself yet?  I could try the 6 or the 8 soon (maybe next month).

It's been years since I read BLAM, do we have any info regarding their mash process?  I'd probably start with my typical hochkurz.

Cool post, thanks for organizing all that information. 
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 11:55:57 am
Have you brewed any of these yourself yet?  I could try the 6 or the 8 soon (maybe next month).

It's been years since I read BLAM, do we have any info regarding their mash process?  I'd probably start with my typical hochkurz.

Cool post, thanks for organizing all that information.

I have not.

What I am planning to do, however, is to start brewing very small batches, on the order of 2.64 liters of finished beer, to experiment with these.

They never disclose the actual mash schedule in BLAM, but a simple 3 step along the lines of the following would probably work just fine:

Beta - 148 for 20-25 minutes
Alpha - 162 for 30 minutes
Mashout 172 for 10 minutes
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: narcout on February 07, 2019, 03:11:59 pm
They never disclose the actual mash schedule in BLAM, but a simple 3 step along the lines of the following would probably work just fine:

Beta - 148 for 20-25 minutes
Alpha - 162 for 30 minutes
Mashout 172 for 10 minutes

That I can handle (even more easily with some new equipment recently purchased).  It looks like I can order wheat starch from Amazon and Sinamar from one of the online homebrew shops.  Those will both be new ingredients for me.

I'll give the 6 a try.  Nothing about the recipe or process looks overly complicated.

And I just bought a half pound of Styrian Goldings, though I'll need to order some Hallertau. I assume that's H. Mittelfruh?

Dose Coriander @ 0.133 g/l

Think that's liters of post-boil volume?  I'll err on the conservative side.  Maybe I can find some of that Indian coriander at Whole Foods, which conveniently is also where I can pick up a bottle of real Rochefort 6.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 03:24:24 pm
They never disclose the actual mash schedule in BLAM, but a simple 3 step along the lines of the following would probably work just fine:

Beta - 148 for 20-25 minutes
Alpha - 162 for 30 minutes
Mashout 172 for 10 minutes

That I can handle (even more easily with some new equipment recently purchased).  It looks like I can order wheat starch from Amazon and Sinamar from one of the online homebrew shops.  Those will both be new ingredients for me.

I'll give the 6 a try.  Nothing about the recipe or process looks overly complicated.

And I just bought a half pound of Styrian Goldings, though I'll need to order some Hallertau. I assume that's H. Mittelfruh?

Dose Coriander @ 0.133 g/l

Think that's liters of post-boil volume?  I'll err on the conservative side.  Maybe I can find some of that Indian coriander at Whole Foods, which conveniently is also where I can pick up a bottle of real Rochefort 6.

If you can get corn starch, that should be a very reasonable alternative. That what they used to use and it seems they only discontinued it for reasons of faith (GMO considerations).

Also, research indicates Hallertau may have been replaced with Aramis.

They add the coriander at the end of the boil so pre-boil would be the one.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: denny on February 07, 2019, 03:25:01 pm
Those recipes look remarkably like what Herman Holtrop came up with 20 years ago.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 03:36:03 pm
Those recipes look remarkably like what Herman Holtrop came up with 20 years ago.

I only know of the Holtrop recipe for Rochefort 8, which is a bit different, i.e. specialty malts, dark Candi rocks, flaked corn, etc.

Are there different recipes?

If this recipe works out, I’d certainly be in good company. The Holtrop recipe is a classic. I shouldn’t say I either. I just simply took the brewery’s recipe for the 6 and scaled up.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: denny on February 07, 2019, 04:19:48 pm
Those recipes look remarkably like what Herman Holtrop came up with 20 years ago.

I only know of the Holtrop recipe for Rochefort 8, which is a bit different, i.e. specialty malts, dark Candi rocks, flaked corn, etc.

Are there different recipes?

If this recipe works out, I’d certainly be in good company. The Holtrop recipe is a classic. I shouldn’t say I either. I just simply took the brewery’s recipe for the 6 and scaled up.

Yeah, those are differences, but they're based on what they were doing when he was there...plus some educated guessing!  He just scaled for the different versions, too, IIRC.  I'm looking forward to trying this version.  And I couldn't agree more about the 1762!
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 07, 2019, 04:36:25 pm
Those recipes look remarkably like what Herman Holtrop came up with 20 years ago.

I only know of the Holtrop recipe for Rochefort 8, which is a bit different, i.e. specialty malts, dark Candi rocks, flaked corn, etc.

Are there different recipes?

If this recipe works out, I’d certainly be in good company. The Holtrop recipe is a classic. I shouldn’t say I either. I just simply took the brewery’s recipe for the 6 and scaled up.

Yeah, those are differences, but they're based on what they were doing when he was there...plus some educated guessing!  He just scaled for the different versions, too, IIRC.  I'm looking forward to trying this version.  And I couldn't agree more about the 1762!

I’m going to update the OP tomorrow with the remainder of my research. I’m going to try and reorganize it into a more functional narrative from Mash to fermenter as well.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 06:09:02 am
I fully revised the OP this morning with some fermentation discussion and my references.
Title: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: BrewBama on February 08, 2019, 06:28:37 am
Florida Crystals is a company I have used with great results and their Turbinado, Raw Cane Sugar and Raw Cane Invert Syrup is available in the grocery store.

My store carries Florida Crystals brand but I cannot find Raw Cane Invert Syrup. They have Lyle’s Golden Syrup but I am not sure it is invert. I am also not finding it on the Florida Crystals website. Have I overlooked something? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 06:31:40 am
Florida Crystals is a company I have used with great results and their Turbinado, Raw Cane Sugar and Raw Cane Invert Syrup is available in the grocery store.

My store carries Florida Crystals brand but I cannot find Raw Cane Invert Syrup. They have Lyle’s Golden Syrup but I am not sure it is invert. I am also not finding it on the Florida Crystals website. Have I overlooked something? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

https://www.floridacrystals.com/products/liquid-organic-raw-cane-sugar

I'm pretty sure it says invert on the actually ingredients section on the bottle.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Robert on February 08, 2019, 06:48:01 am


Florida Crystals is a company I have used with great results and their Turbinado, Raw Cane Sugar and Raw Cane Invert Syrup is available in the grocery store.

My store carries Florida Crystals brand but I cannot find Raw Cane Invert Syrup. They have Lyle’s Golden Syrup but I am not sure it is invert. I am also not finding it on the Florida Crystals website. Have I overlooked something? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

https://www.floridacrystals.com/products/liquid-organic-raw-cane-sugar

I'm pretty sure it says invert on the actually ingredients section on the bottle.

Most cane syrup is not inverted.   Lyles Golden Syrup is partially inverted.  Can't say about the FC.  Making invert is very easy.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 07:05:25 am


Florida Crystals is a company I have used with great results and their Turbinado, Raw Cane Sugar and Raw Cane Invert Syrup is available in the grocery store.

My store carries Florida Crystals brand but I cannot find Raw Cane Invert Syrup. They have Lyle’s Golden Syrup but I am not sure it is invert. I am also not finding it on the Florida Crystals website. Have I overlooked something? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

https://www.floridacrystals.com/products/liquid-organic-raw-cane-sugar

I'm pretty sure it says invert on the actually ingredients section on the bottle.

Most cane syrup is not inverted.   Lyles Golden Syrup is partially inverted.  Can't say about the FC.  Making invert is very easy.

I can only go by what the bottle says, which i'm pretty sure is "Invert Syrup".
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 08:32:40 am
I'm looking forward to trying this version.

Are you still using ProMash?

I've been playing around with it again, as Excel runs a bit slow on my laptop. I was thinking of throwing some ProMash recipe files together.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: denny on February 08, 2019, 10:16:46 am
I'm looking forward to trying this version.

Are you still using ProMash?

I've been playing around with it again, as Excel runs a bit slow on my laptop. I was thinking of throwing some ProMash recipe files together.

Yep.  I don't see any reason not to.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: narcout on February 08, 2019, 12:27:20 pm
Miraculously, I had a bit of free time last night, and this is what I came up with as an initial draft.

Roche #6

6 gallon batch, targeting 71% efficiency (no sparge)

11.75 lbs. German Pils (77%)
1.5 lbs. Wheat Starch (9.9%)
2 lbs. Brun Fonce (13.1%)

1 oz. Aramis (5%) at 60 minutes
1 oz. Styrian Goldings (2.5%) at 20 minutes
3 grams coriander seed at 5 minutes
77 grams Sinamar (flameout I suppose?)

Wyeast 1762 (pitch around 300 billion cells, assuming 5.25 gallons into the fermentor; oxygenate wort with tank/stone for 2 minutes)

Pitch yeast at 68°, hold for 2 days, and let free rise into the low 70s.

OG: 1.072
FG Target: 1.010-1.012 (it's been a long time since I've used 1762, not exactly sure what to expect in terms of AA%; I'll check my notes from the last time I brewed with it)
IBU: 18.5

Water (Using distilled and salts, I can't get to 80 ppm calcium without really overshooting the sulfate and chloride; I think this is a good compromise)

Calcium: 55 ppm
Sodium: 10 ppm
Sulfate: 74 ppm
Chloride: 58 ppm

8.75 ml of phosphoric acid in mash (much prefer acid malt these days though)

Bru'n Water projected mash pH = 5.4

Step mash with rests at 148°, 163°, and 170°

I'm assuming wheat starch has the same extract potential as flaked wheat, but I have no idea if that's true.  It's only 9.9% of the fermentables, so it shouldn't be a big deal as long as it's reasonably close.

That's everything I can think of at the moment.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 12:53:14 pm
3 grams coriander seed at 5 minutes

That checks out as far as the maths are concerned.

77 grams Sinamar (flameout I suppose?)

Yup. I would at it at the very end.
Wyeast 1762 (pitch around 300 billion cells, assuming 5.25 gallons into the fermentor

Sanity check -> M/ml/P = ( 300 / 17.5 ) / 19.87 = ~0.86

Looks good!

Water (Using distilled and salts, I can't get to 80 ppm calcium without really overshooting the sulfate and chloride; I think this is a good compromise)

Calcium: 55 ppm
Sodium: 10 ppm
Sulfate: 74 ppm
Chloride: 58 ppm

I didn't really go into this but it is impossible to match the flavor ions in their water exactly. Hit 50 ppm Ca and do the best you can with the other minerals. Nothing really different than what i would do for any beer.

I'm assuming wheat starch has the same extract potential as flaked wheat, but I have no idea if that's true.  It's only 9.9% of the fermentables, so it shouldn't be a big deal as long as it's reasonably close.

I'm honestly not 100% sure. I'd imagine the extract potential is more on the order of wheat malt but I can't be sure. I've assumed about 75% for starters.

I can't really see a reason not to use Corn Starch if it's easier to get. I would have to order Wheat Starch online to get some so I will be looking for a decent Corn Starch at the grocery store.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: denny on February 08, 2019, 01:08:56 pm
Why not add the Sinamar earlier?  I do it that way.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 01:23:47 pm
Why not add the Sinamar earlier?  I do it that way.

You would just want to make sure that you use the correct volume in the calculations.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Robert on February 08, 2019, 02:33:35 pm
Why not add the Sinamar earlier?  I do it that way.
I used to add Sinamar, as well as sugars, late in the boil because, well, "they" say to.  (Never a good reason for anything.)  I've started adding it all as the wort comes to a boil because it makes things simpler for me.  I've noticed no difference doing it this way.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 03:00:38 pm
Why not add the Sinamar earlier?  I do it that way.
I used to add Sinamar, as well as sugars, late in the boil because, well, "they" say to.  (Never a good reason for anything.)  I've started adding it all as the wort comes to a boil because it makes things simpler for me.  I've noticed no difference doing it this way.

Right. So long as you use the right volume when dosing I can’t see it making a difference.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 08, 2019, 08:05:33 pm
As I sit doing some liquid research (a rare cache of Rochefort 6 was discovered at my local Wegmans!), I am inclined to say that, at least in reference to Rochefort 6, 20 SRM may be a bit high.

It looks closer to Chimay Premiere, which is about 15 SRM. 

Anyone else have an opinion on this?
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 09, 2019, 06:58:54 pm
More “research” tonight with a chalice of Rochefort 8. My local grocery stores all just received major restocks of Rochefort, Chimay, and Westmalle.

I,lol be curious to take a look at the color on the 8, as well as the 10 that’s in the fridge. I have a feeling BLAM may have overestimated the colors on these.

I think 15, 24, 32 may be more appropriate then 20, 32, 45 (6, 8, and 10 respectively).
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: denny on February 10, 2019, 08:48:27 am
More “research” tonight with a chalice of Rochefort 8. My local grocery stores all just received major restocks of Rochefort, Chimay, and Westmalle.

I,lol be curious to take a look at the color on the 8, as well as the 10 that’s in the fridge. I have a feeling BLAM may have overestimated the colors on these.

I think 15, 24, 32 may be more appropriate then 20, 32, 45 (6, 8, and 10 respectively).

What about the possibility that the color has changed since then?  Last time I had a Rochefort it seemed lighter than I recalled.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 10, 2019, 09:08:58 am
More “research” tonight with a chalice of Rochefort 8. My local grocery stores all just received major restocks of Rochefort, Chimay, and Westmalle.

I,lol be curious to take a look at the color on the 8, as well as the 10 that’s in the fridge. I have a feeling BLAM may have overestimated the colors on these.

I think 15, 24, 32 may be more appropriate then 20, 32, 45 (6, 8, and 10 respectively).

What about the possibility that the color has changed since then?  Last time I had a Rochefort it seemed lighter than I recalled.

Certainly.

The 8 I drank last night had a  much less noticeable color difference as opposed to the 6 I drank Friday.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: narcout on February 18, 2019, 11:55:47 am
@Big Monk

I've got a Saison planned for Friday night, but the Roche 6 is next on my list.  Are you interested in any of the details? If so, would you prefer that I post them here or start a new thread?
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: Big Monk on February 18, 2019, 05:44:39 pm
@Big Monk

I've got a Saison planned for Friday night, but the Roche 6 is next on my list.  Are you interested in any of the details? If so, would you prefer that I post them here or start a new thread?

I would throw it right in here. I’ve structure the OP here to be a repository of the excruciating details and research so anything else in the thread is fair game.
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: denny on February 19, 2019, 08:57:32 am
More “research” tonight with a chalice of Rochefort 8. My local grocery stores all just received major restocks of Rochefort, Chimay, and Westmalle.

I,lol be curious to take a look at the color on the 8, as well as the 10 that’s in the fridge. I have a feeling BLAM may have overestimated the colors on these.

I think 15, 24, 32 may be more appropriate then 20, 32, 45 (6, 8, and 10 respectively).

What about the possibility that the color has changed since then?  Last time I had a Rochefort it seemed lighter than I recalled.

Having  had another 8 last week, the color is definitely lighter than I recall.  Of course, memory is an inexact thing, but still....
Title: Re: "Realfort" 6, 8, and 10 (Rochefort Recipe Discussion)
Post by: narcout on February 20, 2019, 12:07:34 pm
Came across this the other day: https://merchantduvin.com/brew-rochefort-trappist-6.php

It states the OG of the 6 is 1.066, and the ABV is 7.5% (which would put the finishing gravity around 1.009).