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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: jfin on August 17, 2010, 12:09:37 PM

Title: Fresh Hops
Post by: jfin on August 17, 2010, 12:09:37 PM
I have been growing my own hops this year and was interested in using them straight off the vine.  I am sure I'm not the only one who has thought about this.  Do you use more or less fresh hops than dried?
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: akr71 on August 17, 2010, 12:20:31 PM
I'm a first year grower too, but from what I've read, use 4 to 5 times as many 'wet' (freshly harvested) hops as you would dried hops.  That's to make up for the increased moisture content of the wet hops.  On the upside, your wet hops won't absorb as much wort during the boil.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 17, 2010, 04:51:53 PM
Typically people only use fresh hops for late additions, because the hops have an unknown amount of alpha acids. 
And yeah, 4-5 times the amount by weight is a good starting point, although I think 5-6+ is a better rule of thumb for my fresh hops, maybe because they haven't been processed at all so the lupulin is not as readily available, but that's just a guess.  Anyway, I stopped weighing them and go by volume now, just because it's easier and more fun for me.

A lot of people call them "wet" hops, which seems really silly to me because they're not wet, they're just not dried.  Like the fruit I ate yesterday, they're fresh.  Or the basil I like on my pizza, fresh, not dried.  No one calls it wet basil, or wet strawberries, and no one says "I'm going to go pick a wet apple off the tree".  Unless maybe it just rained.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: akr71 on August 17, 2010, 05:55:38 PM
... A lot of people call them "wet" hops, which seems really silly to me because they're not wet, they're just not dried....
For that matter, why is it called 'dry-hopping'?  All the hops we use are dry (except for fresh/wet hops).  Is it because the beer is 'dry' (the sugars have fermented to co2 & alcohol)?   :-\

Not trying to thread hijack - just curious...
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 17, 2010, 07:17:33 PM
... A lot of people call them "wet" hops, which seems really silly to me because they're not wet, they're just not dried....
For that matter, why is it called 'dry-hopping'?  All the hops we use are dry (except for fresh/wet hops).  Is it because the beer is 'dry' (the sugars have fermented to co2 & alcohol)?   :-\

Not trying to thread hijack - just curious...
Ha!  Good question - cold hop makes more sense than dry hop, since the wort/beer is at least at pitching temps when you put the hops in.  Dry hop is so ingrained though, that I wouldn't even try to change it.  Fresh hop has a clear meaning to non-brewers, "wet" hop does not.  And "wet" hop is new, and not universal - a lot of people call them fresh hops, including the growers at the Yakima Fresh Hop Ale Festival.  So there's that. :)

Consider that you could dry hop with "wet" hops - try telling that to a non-brewer.  ;D
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: akr71 on August 17, 2010, 07:51:29 PM

Consider that you could dry hop with "wet" hops - try telling that to a non-brewer.  ;D

which is why I asked the question...  I think because the wort has dried out (& become beer) makes the most sense.  I'm really just curious about the origin of the term.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 17, 2010, 08:10:32 PM

Consider that you could dry hop with "wet" hops - try telling that to a non-brewer.  ;D

which is why I asked the question...  I think because the wort has dried out (& become beer) makes the most sense.  I'm really just curious about the origin of the term.
It does make sense, but I don't know if it's right or not.  :)
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on August 18, 2010, 07:31:10 PM
How quickly do you have to use them after picking?
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 18, 2010, 07:32:49 PM
How quickly do you have to use them after picking?
As soon as possible, preferably the same day, although YMMV.  But as always, RDWHAHB.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: beerocd on August 19, 2010, 12:15:38 AM
maybe because they haven't been processed at all so the lupulin is not as readily available,

So, cutting them open... has anyone tried that yet?
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tubercle on August 19, 2010, 01:15:37 AM
I have been growing my own hops this year and was interested in using them straight off the vine.  I am sure I'm not the only one who has thought about this.  Do you use more or less fresh hops than dried?

 Just 6 or 7 hundred years late on this one :P

 Drying came about mostly as a way to preserve them for later use. Experience showed that dry hops took "less" than fresh for the same effect, by weight.

 But I bet if you took fresh cones and counted out 50 and weighed them and then dried them and weighed them again you would come out with the same ratio these others are talking about. I don't know. Just thinking out side the kettle here.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 19, 2010, 01:51:10 AM
You would be using the same number of cones.

Wet hops are 80% water, 20% vegatative matter that has the AA and oils.
Dried hops are 10% water and 90% vegatative matter that has the AA and oils.

To get the same vegatative matter, 90/20=4.5.  That is where the 4 to 5 comes from.

Commercial growers dry at 140F, which will flash off/damage some of the essential oils.   Wet hops have these essential oils, which I think is part of the flavor they give.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 19, 2010, 02:09:29 AM
Quote
You would be using the same number of cones.

Fresh hops are 80% water, 20% vegatative matter that has the AA and oils.
Dried hops are 10% water and 90% vegatative matter that has the AA and oils.

To get the same vegatative matter, 90/20=4.5.  That is where the 4 to 5 comes from.

Commercial growers dry at 140F, which will flash off/damage some of the essential oils.   Fresh hops have these essential oils, which I think is part of the flavor they give.
Fixed it for you.  ;)
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: denny on August 20, 2010, 04:30:43 PM
How quickly do you have to use them after picking?


According to this excellent presentation from NHC last June, hops begin composting themselves within hours.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/4802/Hop_Quality-James_Altweis.pdf
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 20, 2010, 06:59:46 PM
Quote
Fixed it for you.  ;)

Some call the hops straight off the bine wet.  It looks like you like fresh as the term..
Should Dave Wills change the name of his company.  :D

These guys know a little about hops too.
Wet http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/harvest.html
Fresh http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/harvest_southern.html

Just pointing out where I learned the terms, not being too OCD (or am I???).

Edit - Denny is right.  The talk by James Altweis was one of the best of the conference, I would say outstanding.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: Dave King on August 20, 2010, 11:03:46 PM
I use my fresh Cascades & Fuggles for what I call "Wet Hopping" while they're in season.  I put them in my IPA or ESB kegs, but what I really like to do is put a fist full in a 2 liter soda bottle, fill it ~2/3 of the way with IPA or ESB, and put a Carbonator on it.  I hit it with CO2 a couple times, and take it to picnics or similar outings.  People really react to the floating cones and the intense aroma, it's great fun.  Some people mention "grassy," but I don't get that much.
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 23, 2010, 03:56:53 AM

Some call the hops straight off the bine wet.  It looks like you like fresh as the term..
Should Dave Wills change the name of his company.  :D

These guys know a little about hops too.
Wet http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/harvest.html
Fresh http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/harvest_southern.html

Just pointing out where I learned the terms, not being too OCD (or am I???).

Edit - Denny is right.  The talk by James Altweis was one of the best of the conference, I would say outstanding.
Fresh makes sense, wet just doesn't, so I'm on a one-man campaign to get people to change.  I'm not grumpy about it, I just don't think wet is a good term at all.  And I don't think anyone else really cares.   ;D
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: denny on August 23, 2010, 03:37:22 PM
Fresh makes sense, wet just doesn't, so I'm on a one-man campaign to get people to change.  I'm not grumpy about it, I just don't think wet is a good term at all.  And I don't think anyone else really cares.   ;D

Ooooohhh, Mr. Grumpy!   ;D
Title: Re: Fresh Hops
Post by: tschmidlin on August 23, 2010, 03:44:57 PM
Ooooohhh, Mr. Grumpy!   ;D
You know me :)