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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: Robert on May 29, 2019, 01:15:47 PM

Title: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on May 29, 2019, 01:15:47 PM
From an AP article:


"I personally am not a fan of ridiculous brews incorporating materials and gimmicks that have no historical provenance in brewing," said Charlie Bamforth, a distinguished professor emeritus in the food science and technology department of the University of California, Davis.
Bamforth said laws restricting ingredients — like Germany has — might be going a bit too far. But he would like to see some regulations defining what can and can't be called "beer."
"If someone wants to explore bizarre components, then I think they should do it under the umbrella of alternative beverages and not be allowed to sully the good name of beer," he said.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on May 29, 2019, 02:05:43 PM
Hear hear!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Wilbur on May 29, 2019, 05:59:32 PM
Who owns "Beer"? Who's history is the right one for "beer"? There's a lot of historical context for using barley, wheat, sorghum, rye, rice, corn, and oats. Lots of ancient brews used hops or spices. I believe Lithuanians made beer from bread, which you can argue lends to using pop tarts or cereal as a starch/sugar source.

What's ridiculous in beer? Give me a clear rule on how to decide what beer is that doesn't arbitrarily exclude brewing history from across the world and I'll happily concede.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Black Lion Homebrewery on May 29, 2019, 06:20:41 PM
Who owns "Beer"? Who's history is the right one for "beer"? There's a lot of historical context for using barley, wheat, sorghum, rye, rice, corn, and oats. Lots of ancient brews used hops or spices. I believe Lithuanians made beer from bread, which you can argue lends to using pop tarts or cereal as a starch/sugar source.

What's ridiculous in beer? Give me a clear rule on how to decide what beer is that doesn't arbitrarily exclude brewing history from across the world and I'll happily concede.

From what I've seen the closest definition of beer is a fermented, grain-based beverage.  Never understood what it matters if someone decides to throw a bushel of twinkies into their brew.  Don't like it, then don't drink it. 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: a10t2 on May 29, 2019, 09:02:24 PM
What's ridiculous in beer? Give me a clear rule on how to decide what beer is that doesn't arbitrarily exclude brewing history from across the world and I'll happily concede.

Bud Light Straw-Beer-Lime-a-Rita. Line in the sand.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: ethinson on June 10, 2019, 07:41:51 PM
What's ridiculous in beer? Give me a clear rule on how to decide what beer is that doesn't arbitrarily exclude brewing history from across the world and I'll happily concede.

Bud Light Straw-Beer-Lime-a-Rita. Line in the sand.

Depending on what guidelines you go by, the "Ritas" are already not beer.  There's a legal distinction between "Beer" (often listed on labels as ALE, even for lager beers) and FMB or Flavored Malt Beverage. They are taxed differently. 

A lot of what's hot in the market right now that gets lumped into "Beer" for trade publications, Mike's Hard, all of the hard seltzers and hard kombucha's are legally "not beer".  It's a weird gray area though when it comes to the TTB. 

Of course, based on the OP, a 12% imperial stout with lactose, strawberries, chocolate, coffee and poptarts is still beer.... LOL
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 11, 2019, 10:06:50 AM
I started drinking beer because it was fun. I moved to drinking craft beer because I love exploring the endless variety and I love the good vibes of the community.
I really don't care about some old, curmudgeonly macro brewer's divisive comments but... when he says that there needs to be "regulations", what he is effectively saying is: "If someone puts pop tarts in a pilsner and labels it beer, I want men with guns to show up and at that brewer's door and force him to stop." Any time men with guns show up to force someone to comply with a regulation, there's a chance someone gets killed. Over "beer." A word.
Go suck foam, Charlie.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 11, 2019, 11:04:43 AM
I think this would be a much needed change, and if craft beer doesn't get behind it things will get ugly.

Here's why: "Appealing to underage drinkers."

That gets stuck on anything that bucks the norm, and it'll force craft breweries making actual beer that is fruity (NEIPA? Anyone?) to deal with that moniker as well.

I see now that DewClaw has a "Unicorn Fart" beer, with actual glitter, that I'm surprised was allowed to be sold based on how much it appears to be marketed to teens. Sure, it's DewClaw, it's all tongue in cheek...but one teen gets killed driving drunk after drinking it, and every craft brewer will suffer.

Throw these weird non-traditional beer items into another category. Oh wait! We have one: Malt Beverage.

I fail to see the difference between a Mike's Hard and some of the recent swill I see on shelves. Except where it's made. Not judging folks for drinking their preference, but let's call a duck a duck.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 11, 2019, 02:24:29 PM
I started drinking beer because it was fun. I moved to drinking craft beer because I love exploring the endless variety and I love the good vibes of the community.
I really don't care about some old, curmudgeonly macro brewer's divisive comments but... when he says that there needs to be "regulations", what he is effectively saying is: "If someone puts pop tarts in a pilsner and labels it beer, I want men with guns to show up and at that brewer's door and force him to stop." Any time men with guns show up to force someone to comply with a regulation, there's a chance someone gets killed. Over "beer." A word.
Go suck foam, Charlie.

If you keep reading he says that he doesn't want regulations.  And nowhere is there a hyperbolic mention of "men with guns".
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 11, 2019, 02:25:14 PM
Who owns "Beer"? Who's history is the right one for "beer"? There's a lot of historical context for using barley, wheat, sorghum, rye, rice, corn, and oats. Lots of ancient brews used hops or spices. I believe Lithuanians made beer from bread, which you can argue lends to using pop tarts or cereal as a starch/sugar source.

What's ridiculous in beer? Give me a clear rule on how to decide what beer is that doesn't arbitrarily exclude brewing history from across the world and I'll happily concede.

Glitter
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 11, 2019, 04:47:13 PM
I started drinking beer because it was fun. I moved to drinking craft beer because I love exploring the endless variety and I love the good vibes of the community.
I really don't care about some old, curmudgeonly macro brewer's divisive comments but... when he says that there needs to be "regulations", what he is effectively saying is: "If someone puts pop tarts in a pilsner and labels it beer, I want men with guns to show up and at that brewer's door and force him to stop." Any time men with guns show up to force someone to comply with a regulation, there's a chance someone gets killed. Over "beer." A word.
Go suck foam, Charlie.

If you keep reading he says that he doesn't want regulations.  And nowhere is there a hyperbolic mention of "men with guns".

"But he would like to see some regulations defining what can and can't be called "beer.'"

Regulations are enFORCED by policemen(men with guns). Noncompliance with even the simplest misdemeanor CAN escalate to violence and death. All due respect to LEOs who enforce the important laws that keep us safe.

What people need to realize is that when you say we need a law, you are asking the state to coerce someone with the threat of violence. Is this what you want? Because you don't like someone's use of a word?

Why all the hate over glitter beer, NEIPA, pumpkin beer, milkshake IPA, etc.? What happened to the good vibes microbrew community I fell in love with? Why can't we just let people enjoy what they enjoy and be happy for them? Why does craft beer have to be so divisive? Just drink what you like and let the free market sort out the rest.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: joe_meadmaker on June 11, 2019, 05:42:08 PM
Regulations are enFORCED by policemen(men with guns). Noncompliance with even the simplest misdemeanor CAN escalate to violence and death. All due respect to LEOs who enforce the important laws that keep us safe.

What people need to realize is that when you say we need a law, you are asking the state to coerce someone with the threat of violence. Is this what you want? Because you don't like someone's use of a word?

I think this a bit extreme.  There are already regulations on what can/cannot be on a beer (or other unspecified beverage) label.  Even if regulations were established regarding what can be called "beer", what would result are rejected beer label designs when the content isn't compliant.  A fine if there's something on your label that isn't allow to be there.  But that's already the case.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: The Beerery on June 11, 2019, 07:48:30 PM
Weird, I had some similar thoughts.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/reinheitsgebot-what-is-it-and-why-its-important-to-me/
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: mainebrewer on June 11, 2019, 08:29:18 PM
I don't drink, brew or buy bizarre beer (my bizarre may not be the same as other people's bizarre).
I don't see the need to use bizarre ingredients in brewing beer since there are so many interesting combinations of malt, hops and yeast.
But, I don't really care if some brewery makes bizarre beer or if all their beer is bizarre. If they succeed great, if not, then the market place has culled out the weak. 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 11, 2019, 09:00:27 PM


Weird, I had some similar thoughts.
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/reinheitsgebot-what-is-it-and-why-its-important-to-me/

I started homebrewing (this is my 30th year) because I knew I wouldn't  be able to get a decent, well made, fresh beer when I returned to this country, excepting standard American lager (which is still in my fridge at all times, mind you.)  Briefly, around that time, the nascent new brewery movement gave me hope that the situation was going to change.  Then it all very quickly went off the rails somehow.  Rant on, Bryan.  You and I probably disagree on a lot of specifics, but the principle that there must be principles, and that solid, fundamental knowledge and skills must underpin the brewing industry, still applies.  In my home brewery I can't, due to practical constraints, necessarily meet every single ideal goal required of a professional brewery (and we can still dispute what those are, based on differing traditions and end products, and we won't talk about your brewery.)  But I seem to come a lot closer, or at least know better what those goals are, than most who have the audacity to charge good money for their, um, "beer," and I do really like my beer, which is more than I can say for the vast majority of "craft" "beer."  So here we are 30 years later.

The German accommodation  worked out with the EU actually sounds a lot like what Charlie (whose meat and potatoes has been the kind of adaptive quality and process control you emphasize) was suggesting.  You can put anything you want in a bottle, but you can't necessarily label it all as "beer."  As someone mentioned, we do already have something like this.  Malternatives, or what Jim Koch is calling "beyond beer" ventures.  But drawing the lines is not something I'd want to attempt.

BTW Bryan, you probably don't read Ron Pattinson's blog (Shut up about Barclay Perkins,) but his increasing frustration with trying to find a drinkable, recognizable beer while he is in this country, ironically usually on invitation of craft brewers who want to promote education about traditional beer, would be amusing if it weren't actually quite worrying.  Think he'll blow a gasket soon. Or just go on straight whisk(e)y.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on June 11, 2019, 09:05:15 PM
I couldn't agree more with The Beerery's take on the current state of beer in this country.
Well said.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Wilbur on June 11, 2019, 10:03:01 PM
Regarding glitter-do you look down at a birthday cake with red frosting? Does that prevent you from enjoying that slice of cake? Probably not.

I don't think styles and quality correlate at all. People that make bad hazy beers are going to make bad pilsners. I tend to think that bad brewers are more likely to chase trends, and thus you have more bad West Coast IPAs, pastry stouts, sour beers, NEIPA, whatever. If we stuck with Rheinheitsgebot, we'd be missing out on a world of flavor, and still drinking the same quality beer.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 11, 2019, 10:49:58 PM


I tend to think that bad brewers are more likely to chase trends.... If we stuck with Rheinheitsgebot, we'd be missing out on a world of flavor, and still drinking the same quality beer.

I think that the logical progression here is that incompetent brewers, if they were obliged to make transparent (no pun intended, but hey it works) beers, would not be in business very long.  But the quality of the beer doesn't even seem to matter anymore, it's seemingly just about chasing trends, for both the undiscriminating, name checking consumers and the undisciplined brewers they enable.  If "craft beer" is really about lifestyle, demographic, rather than product, then it is no wonder that it must have an ultimate limit on its growth.  And if beer as a whole is losing sales to wine and spirits, it isn't a stretch to deduce that this is because there is really no middle ground, in the beer category as defined by beverage analysts, between a niche, lifestyle accessory, and gas station 30 packs (where, ironically, quality is paramount, as its drinkers will surely recognize and object to defects, aka beerlike flavor and aroma.)  Those looking for a serious, adult beverage must look elsewhere.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on June 11, 2019, 10:57:32 PM
Regarding glitter-do you look down at a birthday cake with red frosting? Does that prevent you from enjoying that slice of cake? Probably not.

I don't think styles and quality correlate at all. People that make bad hazy beers are going to make bad pilsners. I tend to think that bad brewers are more likely to chase trends, and thus you have more bad West Coast IPAs, pastry stouts, sour beers, NEIPA, whatever. If we stuck with Rheinheitsgebot, we'd be missing out on a world of flavor, and still drinking the same quality beer.

Yes but.. at least we'd be drinking quality beer.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dannyjed on June 11, 2019, 11:44:13 PM
Fads and gimmicks never last long. I would never have imagined that murky, pastry, glitter, etc. beers would be popular. It used to bother me that when new homebrewers would start out making beers with all kinds of weird ingredients instead of learning how to make a solid pale ale. I use the jazz analogy, great jazz musicians must have a solid foundation of scales and music theory before they can push the boundaries of a new direction. Too many new brewers and breweries don’t have a solid foundation in ingredients, process, and packaging before they try to make the latest, new craze. It really doesn’t bother me much anymore and I’ll let them learn the hard way. If they want my honest opinion I’ll give it to them. All things go through cycles and just think in a few years maybe well made beer that tastes like beer will be all the rave.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 12, 2019, 01:17:22 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/11/business/salad-frosting-trnd/index.html
This is where our society is at right now. Deal with it. You can still kick people off your lawn.

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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 12, 2019, 01:23:41 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/11/business/salad-frosting-trnd/index.html
This is where our society is at right now. Deal with it. You can still kick people off your lawn.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
And this has got to have something to do with brewers who got "participation trophies" as kids.     
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 12, 2019, 01:34:57 AM
I got a participation trophy when I was 10(I'm 46 now). I can vividly remember thinking how it meant nothing and it was stupid.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 12, 2019, 01:58:34 AM
I got a participation trophy when I was 10(I'm 46 now). I can vividly remember thinking how it meant nothing and it was stupid.
The updated version of walking 10 miles to school carrying water from the well barefoot in the snow uphill both ways:  we didn't even get a damn ice cream if we lost the game!

Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 12, 2019, 12:55:39 PM
BTW Bryan, you probably don't read Ron Pattinson's blog (Shut up about Barclay Perkins,) but his increasing frustration with trying to find a drinkable, recognizable beer while he is in this country, ironically usually on invitation of craft brewers who want to promote education about traditional beer, would be amusing if it weren't actually quite worrying.  Think he'll blow a gasket soon. Or just go on straight whisk(e)y.

This has an interesting side effect - it pushes people Macro. I'll admit I've been walking past the craft beer straight to the domestic area of the local beer cave...and picking up Miller High Life more often than I ever thought I would. Heineken is another staple, when fresh.

There's just no "normal" beer craft beer available anymore, not fresh anyway. Yuengling and Sam Adams are it.

I know I'm not alone in this sentiment either. The high alcohol content and lack of good simple beers has frustrated several folks I know, most of whom would rather buy craft but instead buy Macro because there isn't a craft option that fits what they're looking for.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: ethinson on June 12, 2019, 09:19:47 PM
BTW Bryan, you probably don't read Ron Pattinson's blog (Shut up about Barclay Perkins,) but his increasing frustration with trying to find a drinkable, recognizable beer while he is in this country, ironically usually on invitation of craft brewers who want to promote education about traditional beer, would be amusing if it weren't actually quite worrying.  Think he'll blow a gasket soon. Or just go on straight whisk(e)y.

This has an interesting side effect - it pushes people Macro. I'll admit I've been walking past the craft beer straight to the domestic area of the local beer cave...and picking up Miller High Life more often than I ever thought I would. Heineken is another staple, when fresh.

There's just no "normal" beer craft beer available anymore, not fresh anyway. Yuengling and Sam Adams are it.

I know I'm not alone in this sentiment either. The high alcohol content and lack of good simple beers has frustrated several folks I know, most of whom would rather buy craft but instead buy Macro because there isn't a craft option that fits what they're looking for.

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 13, 2019, 01:55:06 AM


Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage....

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on June 13, 2019, 02:24:24 AM


Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage....

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Same experience here. Brewers with the least amount of skill typically don't fare well making lighter styles.
Title: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on June 13, 2019, 02:41:50 AM
Supply and Demand:  if there is a customer that’s willing to fund the bizarre flavors the brewer’s who bring them to market will continue. Offering a product without a customer base doesn’t last long in a market based economy. With so much good beer available today, bad beer won’t last long.

The breweries around here run booming businesses. I have never been to one for lunch or dinner without a nice healthy crowd of paying customers. I have no doubt it’s a direct connection to the mere coincidence that there are never guacamole, buffalo chicken dip, glitter, birthday cake, Twinkie, or other bizarro offerings on tap. Fruit, sugars, barrel aged, etc laced base beers  are offered I am sure because they sell well enough to keep them in production.

It’s all dollars and sense. 


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 13, 2019, 02:42:46 AM


Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage....

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Same experience here. Brewers with the least amount of skill typically don't fare well making lighter styles.
It's funny, for as long as I can remember, it's been a trope amongst craft brewers to say, condescendingly, "we certainly respect the macros, it takes tremendous skill to brew such a light, delicate, almost flavorless beer so consistently, and with nowhere to hide flaws...."  Read:  "We don't need skill.  Flaws are no concern.  We'll just pile on layer after layer of masking distractions."  As the prosecutor would say, "Your witness."
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 13, 2019, 04:41:58 AM
I am pretty much open to any ingredient added to a beer if there is a credible argument that it produces a quality beer even if it is a beer I have no interest in drinking. The problem I have with a lot of the craft beer market right now is that it isn't about making a quality beer as much as putting something together that will sell rapidly and get clicks on Instagram. It is not even chasing trends in brewing, which has always been part of craft beer, but chasing trends in marketing.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: santoch on June 13, 2019, 04:57:56 AM
I agree with ethinson that there is a resurgence of craft lagers up here in the PacNW.  Since lagers from breweries like Chuckanut, and pFriem raised the bar and they started gaining traction, newer breweries like Chainline, Airways, Bosk, and 4 Generals have been following suit and the results have been outstanding.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: boulderbrewer on June 13, 2019, 02:28:53 PM
Great Thread, as one of those craft brewers I hear it all the time in the tap house, What's new? Do you make this or that? It is easy to get sucked in to making the latest fad beer trying to have something new, Brut IPA anyone? I have resisted for the most part, I do make a NE session IPA(it's call a pale ale folks!), kettle sours and barrel aged, but most of our offerings are straight forward. However my best sellers are flavored wheat beers so go figure.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on June 13, 2019, 05:04:48 PM
Great Thread, as one of those craft brewers I hear it all the time in the tap house, What's new? Do you make this or that? It is easy to get sucked in to making the latest fad beer trying to have something new, Brut IPA anyone? I have resisted for the most part, I do make a NE session IPA(it's call a pale ale folks!), kettle sours and barrel aged, but most of our offerings are straight forward. However my best sellers are flavored wheat beers so go figure.

My DIL loves watermelon wheat. I bought some of that syrup with a pump to add to taste once. I found out it’s not for me. ...but then again I barely like wheat beer.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: joe_meadmaker on June 13, 2019, 05:30:11 PM
I hear it all the time in the tap house, What's new? Do you make this or that?

There does seem to be a mindset for some people that they always need a new/different beer.  Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy trying new beers.  And if I'm out at the bar having a couple, I rarely drink the same beer twice in a row.  I have friends who always want something new.  But unfortunately the primary objective doesn't seem to be about finding a beer that's good, it's about adding another entry to their Untapped profile.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on June 13, 2019, 05:37:41 PM
...  But unfortunately the primary objective doesn't seem to be about finding a beer that's good, it's about adding another entry to their Untapped profile.

Reminds me of my grandkids looking for Pokémon.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: thcipriani on June 13, 2019, 08:30:06 PM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: ethinson on June 13, 2019, 10:59:53 PM
Supply and Demand:  if there is a customer that’s willing to fund the bizarre flavors the brewer’s who bring them to market will continue. Offering a product without a customer base doesn’t last long in a market based economy. With so much good beer available today, bad beer won’t last long.

The breweries around here run booming businesses. I have never been to one for lunch or dinner without a nice healthy crowd of paying customers. I have no doubt it’s a direct connection to the mere coincidence that there are never guacamole, buffalo chicken dip, glitter, birthday cake, Twinkie, or other bizarro offerings on tap. Fruit, sugars, barrel aged, etc laced base beers  are offered I am sure because they sell well enough to keep them in production.

It’s all dollars and sense. 


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You're right, but I think that's part of the "problem" (depending on how you look at it).  Most of the really crazy s*** like throwing whole sheet cakes in the tun is very small volume that's driven by the Instagram/Untappd/Ratebeer world of camp out/mules/trades/one day releases/one case per person per day etc etc.  You only have to sell the beer once. It's not like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that has to be solid time after time after time.

I have to assume some of the really bizzarro stuff, like Rogue's Beard Yeast beer never actually get opened and drank. People buy it for novelty and it sits on a shelf.  Like the brewery in Denver that makes beer with bull testicle? (Although, I hear rumors people actually drink that and it's good).

As always there will be those who love it and those who bash it... to each their own.. YMMV.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 13, 2019, 11:59:51 PM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O2 almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 14, 2019, 01:53:36 AM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

"Gatekeeping" says it all. I wonder why people would put so much energy into controlling a cultural activity that doesn't actually hurt anyone? The majority here seem to agree that the laws of economics will prevail. What's the point of allocating so much life energy to hating something?
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 14, 2019, 02:39:11 AM
A couple of points.  First, the main thrust of this topic is not aimed at the hobby.   As hobbyists, we can and do brew anything we like, especially things we can't find commercially.   That's at the heart of it. Second, gatekeeping can take different forms, and can be used to thwart the market forces mentioned.  The demand of a majority of consumers can be subordinated to the interests of a minority, and more importantly distributors and third party influencers, who have found it possible to profit in the short term from maintaining constant publicity and frenzy for novelty among a few consumers, some of whom are not even, as has been mentioned, particularly interested in the product, just the associated circuses.   Producers themselves are often frustrated by being unable to produce products either they want to make or their majority -- potentially growth -- market desire, as they are obliged to cater to marketers rather than markets.  There's been much discussion in recent years of the imbalance of power in the 3 tier system and between it and consumers.   This is another aspect.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on June 14, 2019, 04:59:10 AM
People will always want something new and different when their current selection is crappy.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 14, 2019, 01:35:17 PM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O2 almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

Ever had Trumer pils?  Pfriem pils?  Amazing beers.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: ethinson on June 14, 2019, 04:52:16 PM
A couple of points.  First, the main thrust of this topic is not aimed at the hobby.   As hobbyists, we can and do brew anything we like, especially things we can't find commercially.   That's at the heart of it. Second, gatekeeping can take different forms, and can be used to thwart the market forces mentioned.  The demand of a majority of consumers can be subordinated to the interests of a minority, and more importantly distributors and third party influencers, who have found it possible to profit in the short term from maintaining constant publicity and frenzy for novelty among a few consumers, some of whom are not even, as has been mentioned, particularly interested in the product, just the associated circuses.   Producers themselves are often frustrated by being unable to produce products either they want to make or their majority -- potentially growth -- market desire, as they are obliged to cater to marketers rather than markets.  There's been much discussion in recent years of the imbalance of power in the 3 tier system and between it and consumers.   This is another aspect.

This is the flip side of the wild and crazy stuff is the monotone.  Not too long ago craft was making beer the macros didn't like Amber Ales, Blond Ales, Pale Ales, Stouts and IPAs...

It's pretty common now (especially in the PacNW) to walk into a brewery tap room that has 1 blonde ale, 1 lager, 1 stout and 15 IPAs... A lot of brewers might want to make a good lager, or a belgian or a saison but the customers want IPA.

It's a damned if ya do damned if ya don't kinda thing sometimes...
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 14, 2019, 05:54:33 PM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O2 almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

Ever had Trumer pils?  Pfriem pils?  Amazing beers.
I thought Trumer was an Austrian macro with a plant in the Bay Area, not sure I'd count it.  Only seen it once, in a green bottle, on a warm shelf, a year old... just like if it had come from Austria. I'd do better buying a Beck's.  Likewise while I consider Yuengling's Pilsner to be a great beer, that's an old line, regional lager brewer that has been awkwardly shoehorned into the craft ranks by the BA.  Heard nothing  but good things about Pfriem, but can't get it.  Funny, but it sounds like if there's a lager revival, it's going to start on the West Coast, right where the original revolt against macro lagers started.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 14, 2019, 06:23:15 PM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O2 almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

Ever had Trumer pils?  Pfriem pils?  Amazing beers.
I thought Trumer was an Austrian macro with a plant in the Bay Area, not sure I'd count it.  Only seen it once, in a green bottle, on a warm shelf, a year old... just like if it had come from Austria. I'd do better buying a Beck's.  Likewise while I consider Yuengling's Pilsner to be a great beer, that's an old line, regional lager brewer that has been awkwardly shoehorned into the craft ranks by the BA.  Heard nothing  but good things about Pfriem, but can't get it.  Funny, but it sounds like if there's a lager revival, it's going to start on the West Coast, right where the original revolt against macro lagers started.

Shame that you can't get Trumer in good shape.   Amazing beer.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 14, 2019, 06:24:35 PM
A couple of points.  First, the main thrust of this topic is not aimed at the hobby.   As hobbyists, we can and do brew anything we like, especially things we can't find commercially.   That's at the heart of it. Second, gatekeeping can take different forms, and can be used to thwart the market forces mentioned.  The demand of a majority of consumers can be subordinated to the interests of a minority, and more importantly distributors and third party influencers, who have found it possible to profit in the short term from maintaining constant publicity and frenzy for novelty among a few consumers, some of whom are not even, as has been mentioned, particularly interested in the product, just the associated circuses.   Producers themselves are often frustrated by being unable to produce products either they want to make or their majority -- potentially growth -- market desire, as they are obliged to cater to marketers rather than markets.  There's been much discussion in recent years of the imbalance of power in the 3 tier system and between it and consumers.   This is another aspect.

This is the flip side of the wild and crazy stuff is the monotone.  Not too long ago craft was making beer the macros didn't like Amber Ales, Blond Ales, Pale Ales, Stouts and IPAs...

It's pretty common now (especially in the PacNW) to walk into a brewery tap room that has 1 blonde ale, 1 lager, 1 stout and 15 IPAs... A lot of brewers might want to make a good lager, or a belgian or a saison but the customers want IPA.

It's a damned if ya do damned if ya don't kinda thing sometimes...

Sounds like you need to get to Eugene.  Can't think of a single place here that's like that.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on June 14, 2019, 10:33:46 PM
Funny, but it sounds like if there's a lager revival, it's going to start on the West Coast, right where the original revolt against macro lagers started.

I'm betting somewhere in the midwest.. somewhere with more Germans.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: thcipriani on June 14, 2019, 11:08:25 PM
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer™, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer™ :)
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 14, 2019, 11:46:35 PM
I'm sorry, but there is a point where a fermented malt beverage is no longer beer. Mike's hard being an example. There's a craft brewery that says "malt beverage" rather than beer on the label, was/is it Dominion?

And if drinking malt beverage is your thing, fine. I don't care. I really don't.

Also, far as I can tell, this place IS inclusive. Plenty of posts about mead, wine, sake, etc...why not admit that malt beverages are a part of that? Let's just call them that, that's all I'm asking.

But from what I can tell, craft beer has bought into the Macro race to the bottom. Sickly sweet, gets you buzzed fast, mass market appeal...vs. being true to beer, which is how all this started.

Meanwhile, I just want fresh beer.

Oh, and Denny, I forgot one: Yuengling Golden Pils is an excellent craft lager, I had forgotten that one. Sadly now that it's not new it isn't as popular...and it's harder to find fresh. Still an easier task than most craft beers though.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 18, 2019, 03:50:25 AM
It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer™, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer™ :)

I'll take people talking about why they don't enjoy particular trends in brewing over people rolling in to drop ad hominem attacks and declining to support their position in any other way.

This post is the same kind of demeaning self-aggrandizement for which you complain.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: thcipriani on June 18, 2019, 06:22:16 PM
It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer™, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer™ :)

I'll take people talking about why they don't enjoy particular trends in brewing over people rolling in to drop ad hominem attacks and declining to support their position in any other way.

This post is the same kind of demeaning self-aggrandizement for which you complain.

This post was not meant to be self-aggrandizing.

If you found my post demeaning -- know that that wasn't my intent.

You characterize this discussion as being about particular trends in brewing. I disagree.

This discussion started by asserting that certain trendy beers should not be allowed to call themselves "beer" -- which is already different than your characterization. This topic then devolved into: NEIPA is bad, glitter is some kind of line in the sand/being marketed at children (read: you must be a child if you like it).

For f##k sake someone brought up participation trophies being bad for your character.

Rhetoric matters. The tone of this discussion was inflammatory. This discussion was about what's allowed to call itself beer and implicitly who's allowed to call themselves a brewer in this forum.

You're completely right: I am not taking a side in that argument. It's not because I'm not participating, it's because my knee-jerk reaction was not to participate because the discussion was so ugly.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 18, 2019, 07:04:08 PM
I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 18, 2019, 07:12:40 PM
Hear hear
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: thcipriani on June 18, 2019, 08:04:45 PM
What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude.

e.g.,

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

I think the hobby is killing itself and taking craft brew with it and I think this thread is a microcosm of the larger trends causing that.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 18, 2019, 09:09:06 PM
What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude.

e.g.,

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

I think the hobby is killing itself and taking craft brew with it and I think this thread is a microcosm of the larger trends causing that.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: thcipriani on June 18, 2019, 09:46:06 PM
What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude.

e.g.,

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

I think the hobby is killing itself and taking craft brew with it and I think this thread is a microcosm of the larger trends causing that.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

/me doffs cap
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on June 18, 2019, 10:15:36 PM
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 18, 2019, 10:22:42 PM
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know a couple guys who just published a book about that....

"The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible". 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on June 18, 2019, 10:31:27 PM
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know a couple guys who just published a book about that....

"The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible".

Absolutely.  Drew’s On the Ones idea, Palmer’s styles formula using base + four character malts in How to Brew, Josh’s Beer Simple, Zainasheff’s “by the sack method” in commercial breweries all reinforce this idea. I am aligning more and more to these ideas.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 18, 2019, 10:48:50 PM
Most of my beers are a single base malt, occasionally with an adjunct or brewing sugar, and most often a single FWH hop addition.  Recipe wise I don't think I could get much simpler.  It's pretty much how all beer was once.  You can accuse my brewhouse and cellar processes of being complicated, but -- and I think this jibes with Denny and Drew's philosophy -- there's nothing in there that doesn't have a good reason.   The result is decidedly beer flavored beer (when executed well,) and the challenge is to make the most of what you have.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Joe T on June 18, 2019, 11:37:39 PM
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know a couple guys who just published a book about that....

"The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible".

Reminds me of the old contractor's saying:
You can have it done cheap, fast, or good. Pick 2.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 19, 2019, 02:21:25 PM
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know a couple guys who just published a book about that....

"The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible".

Absolutely.  Drew’s On the Ones idea, Palmer’s styles formula using base + four character malts in How to Brew, Josh’s Beer Simple, Zainasheff’s “by the sack method” in commercial breweries all reinforce this idea. I am aligning more and more to these ideas.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm finding that more and more, enjoyment is my purpose in brewing.  Not the beer, not the equipment just the joy of doing it.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 19, 2019, 02:24:41 PM
I'm finding that more and more, enjoyment is my purpose in brewing.  Not the beer, not the equipment just the joy of doing it.

For once Denny and I are in total agreement. With my return to brewing I know I'm not going to make the best beer. (Though it'll still be superior for most Craft swill available these days...)

That's not the goal though. I miss the process. I miss smelling the grain mashing, (Yes, I know that means it's oxidizing) the boil, etc. I miss trying historic techniques. Taking a long break from brewing was a great way to realize what elements I missed, and which ones I did not...
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 19, 2019, 03:12:43 PM
I'm finding that more and more, enjoyment is my purpose in brewing.  Not the beer, not the equipment just the joy of doing it.

I know I'm not going to make the best beer. (Though it'll still be superior for most Craft swill available these days...)



See, that's the thing. When admittedly suboptimal homebrew is consistently better than commercial craft beer, there's a problem in the craft sphere, and it isn't going to be some homebrewers on a forum, per se, that kill the industry.  Have fun, Phil!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 19, 2019, 04:08:32 PM
I'm finding that more and more, enjoyment is my purpose in brewing.  Not the beer, not the equipment just the joy of doing it.

I know I'm not going to make the best beer. (Though it'll still be superior for most Craft swill available these days...)



See, that's the thing. When admittedly suboptimal homebrew is consistently better than commercial craft beer, there's a problem in the craft sphere, and it isn't going to be some homebrewers on a forum, per se, that kill the industry.  Have fun, Phil!

I can't really say that suboptimal homebrew is consistently better than craft around here.  We must be lucky.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 19, 2019, 04:18:46 PM
I'm finding that more and more, enjoyment is my purpose in brewing.  Not the beer, not the equipment just the joy of doing it.

I know I'm not going to make the best beer. (Though it'll still be superior for most Craft swill available these days...)



See, that's the thing. When admittedly suboptimal homebrew is consistently better than commercial craft beer, there's a problem in the craft sphere, and it isn't going to be some homebrewers on a forum, per se, that kill the industry.  Have fun, Phil!

I can't really say that suboptimal homebrew is consistently better than craft around here.  We must be lucky.
There's good and bad.  Just more bad than you'd expect would be sustainable.  But I guess a lot of that is operations not necessarily riding on the beer itself, from vanity projects, to those that attract customers by way of food, entertainment, activities, etc., or of course just hype and trend seeking.  Occasionally those operations don't survive,  but it's sometimes surprising what does survive (especially those that are primarily production breweries.)  And you are no doubt lucky out there.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Visor on June 20, 2019, 04:14:10 PM
   I managed to make it to a couple of brewfests near here this month and was very disappointed by the overall quality of the beers. I was amazed at the paucity of good beers, and the number of bad beers, and I don't just mean the weird "blueberry- mint julip-frappe breakfast saison" crap, I mean beers that had so many quality flaws that even my burned out taste buds couldn't help but notice. Granted both fests took place far from any population center, but I had the same experience last year at the Knoxville Brewfest.
    I think breweries get away with selling crap beer because so few people can really tell the difference between well made beer and garbage, and because it's cool to consume locally made stuff, be it beer, wine, spirits or someone's tough, overripe field corn purchased at the local farmer's market.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Wilbur on June 26, 2019, 01:09:21 AM
Tasty(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190626/fe1921e93a4d0b22bc06b2cf4d9d8eba.jpg)

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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on June 26, 2019, 01:49:20 AM
Tasty(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190626/fe1921e93a4d0b22bc06b2cf4d9d8eba.jpg)

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LOL. Exhibit A. Cheers!


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 26, 2019, 02:01:24 AM
Tasty(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190626/fe1921e93a4d0b22bc06b2cf4d9d8eba.jpg)

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LOL. Exhibit A. Cheers!


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Yeah well anything to do with Marion Barry is gonna contain some substances it oughta not.  Oh wait that's Marionberry.   Still. 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on June 26, 2019, 07:14:21 PM
Tasty(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190626/fe1921e93a4d0b22bc06b2cf4d9d8eba.jpg)

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LOL. Exhibit A. Cheers!


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Yeah well anything to do with Marion Barry is gonna contain some substances it oughta not.  Oh wait that's Marionberry.   Still. 

Hey, I LOVE marionberries! 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: The Beerery on June 27, 2019, 12:30:44 AM
Random dirty glass filled to the brim with no head? Check

Crazy ingredients that shouldn’t be in beer? Check

Stupid generic label to entice millennials?
Check

The exact beer I wrote my blog post about?
Check




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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Wilbur on June 27, 2019, 05:22:32 AM


Stupid generic label to entice millennials?
Check
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You've got one thing right, the Germans haven't restyled a car or a logo in decades... Centuries... Ever?

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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 27, 2019, 12:17:20 PM


Stupid generic label to entice millennials?
Check
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You've got one thing right, the Germans haven't restyled a car or a logo in decades... Centuries... Ever?

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Actually they pretty much invented the idea of design, and redesign... see Bauhaus.  And Spiegelau/Riedel is largely responsible for the increasingly absurd array of new glassware designs for various styles of beer.  But redesigning what's in the glass has never been seen as serving a useful purpose it seems.  Nonetheless trends and fashions are forces in German beer drinking, especially generationally, just as anywhere else.   Like when the utterly obscure Bavarian Hefeweizen exploded onto the scene in the 80s, when every student with Einstürzende Neubauten on their Walkman had to have one, with a lemon slice, in the newly anointed vase shaped glass.  The German counterpart to the contemporaneous collegiate American innovation of a Corona with a lime wedge.  Now both seem old hat.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 27, 2019, 02:07:18 PM
Radom dirty glass filled to the brim with no head? Check

Crazy ingredients that shouldn’t be in beer? Check

Stupid generic label to entice millennials?
Check

The extract beer I wrote my blog post about?
Check


Even if you don't have a taste for German beer, still represents everything wrong with the average Craft brewery.

And I'm not trying to hate on fruit beers...just want them shelved differently from "regular" beer. It's be nice to have the regular beer in a easier to pick over area...
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: The Beerery on June 27, 2019, 04:33:17 PM


Stupid generic label to entice millennials?
Check
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You've got one thing right, the Germans haven't restyled a car or a logo in decades... Centuries... Ever?

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It makes me sad when me, a homebrewer has nicer labels than them, a "professional" brewer. I have had my cans and labels for 2 years.... They have a peel and stick label on a generic can...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJDRe6G1P6c

Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: boulderbrewer on June 27, 2019, 08:28:17 PM
Even if you don't have a taste for German beer, still represents everything wrong with the average Craft brewery.

And I'm not trying to hate on fruit beers...just want them shelved differently from "regular" beer. It's be nice to have the regular beer in a easier to pick over area...

Small breweries have a hard enough time just to get a space on the shelf, that what you want would be next to impossible. Big beer sales and delivery people are always pulling crap on us by taking our shelf space or burying our beer. I'm just happy to have any shelf space.

Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on June 27, 2019, 11:29:35 PM
Even if you don't have a taste for German beer, still represents everything wrong with the average Craft brewery.

And I'm not trying to hate on fruit beers...just want them shelved differently from "regular" beer. It's be nice to have the regular beer in a easier to pick over area...

Small breweries have a hard enough time just to get a space on the shelf, that what you want would be next to impossible. Big beer sales and delivery people are always pulling crap on us by taking our shelf space or burying our beer. I'm just happy to have any shelf space.

It's not taking any more or less space, just re-arranging existing product...

And around here, s***ty local breweries have displaced some of the stars of craft brewing from shelves...I really miss Anchor Steam, and the old SN Porter...Anything from Saranac, etc.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dzlater on June 30, 2019, 11:38:16 AM
There is a local TV show about craft beer where they visit different local breweries.
They were interviewing a brewer who was talking about expanding into new markets.
The distributors don't want another IPA or pale ale, or what some would call "normal beer", so they are sort of forced to push the envelope on ingredients and style.
Just a thought.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on June 30, 2019, 04:41:51 PM

The distributors don't want another IPA or pale ale, or what some would call "normal beer"

The distributors are beholden to/controlled by Big Beer.  One implication of the situation described in this oft quoted and still excellent article

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blog/2017/5/5/watch-the-hands-not-the-cards-the-magic-of-megabrew

is that Big Beer doesn't want these for good reason: 

They want to control or influence a sufficient segment of what is popularly perceived as definitive, quality "craft" so as to bring its perceived quality (indicated by price point) into relative parity with their core brands, so as to in turn enhance the perceived quality, and hence the actual brand equity, of those mass market brands.  They want to keep independent craft confined to increasingly narrow niches.  Of course they don't want more competition in "normal beer" (I'm just going to use this convenient shorthand you've provided, dzlater.)

It seems to me they are missing a huge opportunity.  While craft, in a very limited niche (or niches,) holds fast -- even growing in certain statistical manipulations like number of brands or dollar sales, but not in actual number of loyal consumers -- beer sales as a whole continue to decline, while wine and spirits and malternatives grow.  I believe this is because the potential growth market in beer is would-be consumers of "normal beer," but not being served, they turn to other adult beverages.   Big Beer doesn't care, they will just invest in those sectors.  (So too increasingly the likes of Boston/DFH.)  Note also that one of the first effects of consolidation of ownership internationally was the disappearance of most of the former imports which might have filled the middle ground between the ephemeral avant garde of craft and the gas station 30 pack.  Again, Big Beer just sees this as a case of well, we have a brand presence in that market, no need to keep shipping stuff across the ocean.

It seems once again that the 3 tier system, intended to protect the consumer from undue influence on the part of brewers, in fact now insulates the brewer from the inconvenient influence of consumer demand.

[EDIT for typo]
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 01, 2019, 10:26:54 PM
Somewhat relevant:

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2019/06/hazy-juicy-ipas.html

Standout quote:   "The more we normalize poorly made beer, hazy or not, the harder it is to go back."
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: kgs on July 02, 2019, 05:15:50 AM
This is not the first time glitter has come up as a line in the sand. In the September/October Zymurgy, an article chastised women who put glitter in their homebrew. I was so annoyed I wrote a response, which didn't get published. No worries, it may not have been such a great submission. But I wrote something I feel strongly about:

"Diversifying membership as a strategy means embracing new ideas, opinions, and even values. New homebrewers don't need to 'garner respect'  by avoiding ingredients they find fun or interesting or even, dare I say, 'girly.' On the contrary, rather than ordering new members to conform to the majority, we should respect and welcome newcomers for challenging what it means to make beer and be a homebrewer."

I don't have any strong interest in brewing with glitter -- except when I read that this is something I shouldn't do. Then, I want to put glitter in my brew AND sprinkle it on the beer labels. Note, there are some beer trends I am highly tired of -- I have reached the point where I do not want hazy anything! But let the people brew.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on July 02, 2019, 12:27:10 PM

The distributors don't want another IPA or pale ale, or what some would call "normal beer"

The distributors are beholden to/controlled by Big Beer.  One implication of the situation described in this oft quoted and still excellent article

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blog/2017/5/5/watch-the-hands-not-the-cards-the-magic-of-megabrew

is that Big Beer doesn't want these for good reason: 

They want to control or influence a sufficient segment of what is popularly perceived as definitive, quality "craft" so as to bring its perceived quality (indicated by price point) into relative parity with their core brands, so as to in turn enhance the perceived quality, and hence the actual brand equity, of those mass market brands.  They want to keep independent craft confined to increasingly narrow niches.  Of course they don't want more competition in "normal beer" (I'm just going to use this convenient shorthand you've provided, dzlater.)

It seems to me they are missing a huge opportunity.  While craft, in a very limited niche (or niches,) holds fast -- even growing in certain statistical manipulations like number of brands or dollar sales, but not in actual number of loyal consumers -- beer sales as a whole continue to decline, while wine and spirits and malternatives grow.  I believe this is because the potential growth market in beer is would-be consumers of "normal beer," but not being served, they turn to other adult beverages.   Big Beer doesn't care, they will just invest in those sectors.  (So too increasingly the likes of Boston/DFH.)  Note also that one of the first effects of consolidation of ownership internationally was the disappearance of most of the former imports which might have filled the middle ground between the ephemeral avant garde of craft and the gas station 30 pack.  Again, Big Beer just sees this as a case of well, we have a brand presence in that market, no need to keep shipping stuff across the ocean.

It seems once again that the 3 tier system, intended to protect the consumer from undue influence on the part of brewers, in fact now insulates the brewer from the inconvenient influence of consumer demand.

[EDIT for typo]

Ironically, the best local distributor for Craft beer in my area is the local Bud one. Their rep for their craft brands (the distributor, not Inbev) seems to be the only one who can get us beer even remotely fresh.

Sadly, not a lot of craft brands seem to distribute through them.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Slowbrew on July 02, 2019, 02:28:17 PM
This is not the first time glitter has come up as a line in the sand. In the September/October Zymurgy, an article chastised women who put glitter in their homebrew. I was so annoyed I wrote a response, which didn't get published. No worries, it may not have been such a great submission. But I wrote something I feel strongly about:

"Diversifying membership as a strategy means embracing new ideas, opinions, and even values. New homebrewers don't need to 'garner respect'  by avoiding ingredients they find fun or interesting or even, dare I say, 'girly.' On the contrary, rather than ordering new members to conform to the majority, we should respect and welcome newcomers for challenging what it means to make beer and be a homebrewer."

I don't have any strong interest in brewing with glitter -- except when I read that this is something I shouldn't do. Then, I want to put glitter in my brew AND sprinkle it on the beer labels. Note, there are some beer trends I am highly tired of -- I have reached the point where I do not want hazy anything! But let the people brew.

Well stated and on the mark in my opinion.

On this forum we have had serious discussions on beers made with many unusual ingredients (Jolly Ranchers, Fruit Loops and Cocoa Puffs come to mind) and no one batted an eye.  Some people didn't think much of the ideas but no one railed about it "not being allowed".

IMHO - These discussions tend to fall under the mantra "Relax, Don't Worry, Have a Homebrew" and remind me that we can brew with whatever we want and evaluate the results without worrying what others think.  It's part of why I became a homebrewer. 

Let's leave the "No True Scotsman" arguments to other forums and just accept that while I don't want to use an ingredient, that doesn't make it a violation of some rule set I've not seen.  Be creative, share your discoveries (and failures) and keep brewing your own way.

Paul
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: The Beerery on July 02, 2019, 03:57:30 PM
I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 02, 2019, 03:59:31 PM
I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


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My main point exactly.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 03:40:55 AM
I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


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My main point exactly.


Well then.  Amen. 


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2019, 03:25:44 AM
I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


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My main point exactly.


Well then.  Amen. 


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Indeed. Brew with toad sweat if you like so long as the beer is well made.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: kgs on July 06, 2019, 04:04:53 PM
I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


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My main point exactly.


Well then.  Amen. 


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Indeed. Brew with toad sweat if you like so long as the beer is well made.

Then we are all in violent agreement, as the OP quoted a professor emeritus: "'I personally am not a fan of ridiculous brews incorporating materials and gimmicks that have no historical provenance in brewing,' said Charlie Bamforth, a distinguished professor emeritus in the food science and technology department of the University of California, Davis." The Forum consensus seems to be, it's all about the quality of the brew.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2019, 04:24:14 PM


I could give 2 s***s about any homebrewer ( hell even pro brewers) using any ingredient they want.  My beef is with poorly made beer.  There is way too much of it. Which in this day with all the science and technology is unacceptable.


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My main point exactly.


Well then.  Amen. 


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Indeed. Brew with toad sweat if you like so long as the beer is well made.

Then we are all in violent agreement, as the OP quoted a professor emeritus: "'I personally am not a fan of ridiculous brews incorporating materials and gimmicks that have no historical provenance in brewing,' said Charlie Bamforth, a distinguished professor emeritus in the food science and technology department of the University of California, Davis." The Forum consensus seems to be, it's all about the quality of the brew.

Yes, I originally chose the title of this topic not as a declaration, but as a characterization of what Prof Bamforth was saying, hoping to open up a discussion.  It worked, I guess.  I was just thinking last night that we seem to have come to a consensus around a more balanced refinement of his view:  Bamforth seems to think that novel ingredients, by their very existence, are ruining beer.  The forum seems to feel that these ingredients at most can enable the ruination of beer by providing cover, masking the shortcomings of poor brewers, and maybe by providing distractions that make it harder for consumers to learn to distinguish good from poor beer.  We seem to have a wise crowd around here.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 06, 2019, 04:33:28 PM
I see it more like this...

Bamforth seems to think that SOME novel ingredients, by their very existence, are ruining beer.  And his opinion is as valid as those to the contrary.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on July 10, 2019, 02:48:26 PM

It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer :)

Sadly, if one can take a closer introspective look, there’s an underlying truth in this ^^^.   AHA leadership might want to take a step back, take a breath, and take notice: Risking ridicule, you have a long-time member willing to voice an issue with the current state of affairs. If one member has the gumption to confront the issue openly, how many others are thinking the same thing and simply not saying anything ...but voting with their feet. Versus becoming defensive, maybe an alternate solution should be investigated.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 10, 2019, 04:08:48 PM
So, it seems like in order to keep the peace people shouldn't post contrary opinions?  Aren't we all allowed to have our own views?
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on July 10, 2019, 04:32:56 PM
Quite the contrary. I believe he is saying allow contrary opinions and respectful differences without being shut down. Maybe I misunderstood him.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Big Monk on July 10, 2019, 05:33:45 PM

It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer :)

Sadly, if one can take a closer introspective look, there’s an underlying truth in this ^^^.   AHA leadership might want to take a step back, take a breath, and take notice: Risking ridicule, you have a long-time member willing to voice an issue with the current state of affairs. If one member has the gumption to confront the issue openly, how many others are thinking the same thing and simply not saying anything ...but voting with their feet. Versus becoming defensive, maybe an alternate solution should be investigated.

Keep a few things in mind:

1.) Charlie Bamforth isn't involved with the AHA Forum, i.e. don't make the leap that posting and discussing something Bamforth said here has the 100% backing of the AHA forum mods/admin or the AHA itself;

2.) This is "The Pub", meaning it's the exact place to discuss something unrelated to the brewing of beer but brewing industry, etc. related;

3.) "The Pub" should be a place where even the admin/mods can voice their opinion on something, particularly when it wasn't them starting the thread in the first place.

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

thcipriani seems to have gone on a rant directed at the wrong people. Why does what Bamforth thinks have anything to do with the AHA or the AHA Forum? Why, in "The Pub", should anyone, even mods/admins, not be allowed to agree with him if they want to?

Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 10, 2019, 08:30:28 PM
Excellent points, Derek, and I for one am in complete agreement.   I made the original post to stimulate discussion and nothing more.  For people to think that anything I post is an endorsement by the AHA is wrong.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on July 10, 2019, 09:52:30 PM
 I think some of the issues he presented could be accurate regardless of where he posted them and how they were presented. I believe the deeper issue has nothing to do with Bamforth’s lack of connection with the AHA or who the originator of the thread was.  He didn’t even mention those things. His ‘rant’ may be a symptom of a deeper more concerning illness.

He listed issues such as lack of inclusiveness, shutting down dissenting opinions, loss of technical expertise, etc. Who knows, this long time member may have hit the nail on the head.

DMTaylor may have it right when he said this place is dying.  I’m saying maybe the leadership should take notice, discover why, then do something about it. Status quo may be a death spiral.




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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 10, 2019, 10:16:59 PM
I think some of the issues he presented could be accurate regardless of where he posted them and how they were presented. I believe the deeper issue has nothing to do with Bamforth’s lack of connection with the AHA or who the originator of the thread was.  He didn’t even mention those things. His ‘rant’ may be a symptom of a deeper more concerning illness.

He listed issues such as lack of inclusiveness, shutting down dissenting opinions, loss of technical expertise, etc. Who knows, this long time member may have hit the nail on the head.

DMTaylor may have it right when he said this place is dying.  I’m saying maybe the leadership should take notice, discover why, then do something about it. Status quo may be a death spiral.




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Keep in mind that he's not the only long term member, or even the longest one, here.  Not that I understand what that really has to do with it. 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on July 10, 2019, 10:28:18 PM
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 10, 2019, 11:02:14 PM
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


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Sorry I misunderstood.  If you don't mind, I'd like to move this discussion to PM.  I have a couple points I'd like to bring up with you and I don't want to clutter this threaad any more than I already have.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 10, 2019, 11:17:43 PM
One difficulty with inclusiveness and sensitivity to the sensibilities of others in the sense addressed here is that it in fact can tend to engender the opposite.  Some in this thread were perceived as expressing views that another member for some reason finds personally objectionable.  Should they not be included?  Or is inclusion extended only to the inoffensive as defined by those who now become de facto gatekeepers in their interpretation and administration of rules of etiquette?

And as Big Monk rightly pointed out, this thread is in The Pub, and should be taken in that context.

But even in the broader context, this entire space is a forum, by definition a venue for presenting and discussing divergent viewpoints.  When we self-censor for fear of contradicting someone else's viewpoint, we cease to have any useful function. 

A corollary of this is that we all must be somewhat steeled against the possibility of being confronted by objectionable viewpoints.

It was the emergence of an atmosphere such as is apparently considered welcoming in this context that drove me to abandon an academic career long ago.  When disputes as to even matters of fact, let alone opinions or values, are taken as personal affronts, and therefore no situatuon which may potentially give rise to such conflicts is permissible, then the hope of any rigorous, objective intellectual pursuit -- of anyone learning anything they didn't already presume to know -- is forlorn.  The logical endpoint is a forum with exactly one participant.

Malice is unacceptable.   Discomfort is unavoidable.  So we learn and grow.

If we truly want to see this forum, and the broader organization, established as the one, universal, inclusive, go-to source for all things homebrew, we will have to accept that people with interests, priorities and sensibilities so divergent that most of us may appear ridiculous to everyone else must coexist, shrug it off, and focus on whatever brought us here.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewBama on July 10, 2019, 11:47:41 PM
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


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Sorry I misunderstood.  If you don't mind, I'd like to move this discussion to PM.  I have a couple points I'd like to bring up with you and I don't want to clutter this threaad any more than I already have.

Absolutely. I look forward to it.


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Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Big Monk on July 11, 2019, 12:06:26 AM
As far as being inclusive goes, I am not always on the best terms with this forum, but it seems to welcome me back with no issues, even if I disagree with people here and they with me.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 11, 2019, 02:11:20 PM
The length of membership has nothing to do with the issues he raised.


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Sorry I misunderstood.  If you don't mind, I'd like to move this discussion to PM.  I have a couple points I'd like to bring up with you and I don't want to clutter this threaad any more than I already have.

Absolutely. I look forward to it.


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Thanks.  Basically, what I was gonna say was said much more eloquently in Rob' s post. 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dmtaylor on July 11, 2019, 03:17:08 PM
Here is my first post on this thread.  I obviously have some catching up to do, and not certain if I will have time to stay on here presently (as I am yes at work and yes kind of busy, almost sorry I dropped by).

Regarding the Bamforth thing, I'm happy to see that he shows no fear in expressing his opinion, which of course is HIS OPINION and isn't anything anywhere close to approaching shoving anything down anyone's throat, nowhere near the same manner in which certain other topics have been shoved down.  But anywho.

EDIT: And make no mistake... this forum, and most if not all other forums, are on their deathbed, even if maybe for no better reason than the old farts are dying off while everyone else is too busy texting their acquaintances and watching videos of cats on YouTube.  It's almost time for all the rest of us to move on and do the same -- lose interest due to such terribly low traffic, conform to the idiocy, then die.

EDIT2: The other trouble with the inevitable low traffic that is happening (not just here but everywhere except for Facebook) is that the only folks who seem to want to stick around on forums like this one are either A) Noobs, or B) the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions.  And inevitably, the B folks will quickly scare away all the A.  There will always be noobs but they'll never want to stick around as they can't grasp all the concepts and arguments, and certainly don't want to put up with our sh1t.

I consider myself a realist.  Not a pessimist.  Realist.  This is reality.

But I digress, sorry.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Visor on July 11, 2019, 04:39:34 PM
   The "problems" with this forum are reflective of the problems with the world, not the east of which is that so many people any more have become ridiculously thin skinned. When you have a forum such as this devoted to a subject that as many people are as passionate about as BEER, there will be times unfortunately that heated discussions will degrade to personal fights, human nature being what it is. The point at which a disagreement becomes a fight and thus justifies intervention from a moderator is of course very subjective, but I suspect that long before that definite red line is crossed, a large number of folks will already have seen enough and pulled the plug on the thread, if not the whole forum.
   Be as passionate as you like, but be respectful, try to be polite, and for Pete's sake stop being so damn hypersensitive - and if you do get your feeling hurt, act like an adult and heal up and hide over!
   
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 11, 2019, 04:53:22 PM


Stupid generic label to entice millennials?
Check
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You've got one thing right, the Germans haven't restyled a car or a logo in decades... Centuries... Ever?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Actually they pretty much invented the idea of design, and redesign... see Bauhaus.  And Spiegelau/Riedel is largely responsible for the increasingly absurd array of new glassware designs for various styles of beer.  But redesigning what's in the glass has never been seen as serving a useful purpose it seems.  Nonetheless trends and fashions are forces in German beer drinking, especially generationally, just as anywhere else.   Like when the utterly obscure Bavarian Hefeweizen exploded onto the scene in the 80s, when every student with Einstürzende Neubauten on their Walkman had to have one, with a lemon slice, in the newly anointed vase shaped glass.  The German counterpart to the contemporaneous collegiate American innovation of a Corona with a lime wedge.  Now both seem old hat.

Style and design make me think of the Italians. More understated style and design with good engineering makes me think Germans.

I think the glass making companies have had a hard time of it lately, with global competition. If you've been N-S along the Czech border in Niederbayern you know that the towns look nowhere as prosperous as the rest of Bavaria. Closed glass factories, shabby houses, even closed local breweries.

Spiegelau, Reidel, Nachmann are all making new glass styles, or going after the high end beer, wine, mixed drink crowd. That is what I concluded looking around at the products for sale at the Corning Glass Museum gift shop on the way back from HomebrewCon. Outstanding museum, BTW.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Megary on July 12, 2019, 12:35:12 AM
Here is my first post on this thread.  I obviously have some catching up to do, and not certain if I will have time to stay on here presently (as I am yes at work and yes kind of busy, almost sorry I dropped by).

Regarding the Bamforth thing, I'm happy to see that he shows no fear in expressing his opinion, which of course is HIS OPINION and isn't anything anywhere close to approaching shoving anything down anyone's throat, nowhere near the same manner in which certain other topics have been shoved down.  But anywho.

EDIT: And make no mistake... this forum, and most if not all other forums, are on their deathbed, even if maybe for no better reason than the old farts are dying off while everyone else is too busy texting their acquaintances and watching videos of cats on YouTube.  It's almost time for all the rest of us to move on and do the same -- lose interest due to such terribly low traffic, conform to the idiocy, then die.

EDIT2: The other trouble with the inevitable low traffic that is happening (not just here but everywhere except for Facebook) is that the only folks who seem to want to stick around on forums like this one are either A) Noobs, or B) the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions.  And inevitably, the B folks will quickly scare away all the A.  There will always be noobs but they'll never want to stick around as they can't grasp all the concepts and arguments, and certainly don't want to put up with our sh1t.

I consider myself a realist.  Not a pessimist.  Realist.  This is reality.

But I digress, sorry.

So I'll jump in where I don't belong because I haven't yet earned my wings.  Or maybe this is exactly where I belong because of that.

Bamforth...meh.  And your first Edit was highly entertaining.  Well done.

But I would have to take an exception to the whole Edit 2.  Consider me a flag waiving member of Group A, the Noobs.  Or another way to put it, the group with the most excitement and enthusiasm when it comes to digging into something new...something fun.  Ready to learn, ready to up my game.  To think that a few Get off my Lawn curmudgeons are going to scare me away is selling me short.  Maybe I'm an exception, but I doubt it.

Another point...yeah, about that Group B.  Maybe I have the benefit of a few too many winters, but I learned a long time ago that the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions are often using that as a cover for some other shortcoming or insecurity.  So the louder someone shouts, regardless of how many [equations] and fancy symbols used for my benefit, the less I pay attention.  Yawn.

And frankly, with all due respect, I have found out in a few short months since returning to this hobby that there is so much misinformation in printed books (surprise) and floating around the internet (not a surprise) that it really is hard to believe anyone.  Especially when it comes to dry hopping.  :)  We can all get from grain (or LME) to glass however we like, however it is most enjoyable. Can I brew a better beer if I followed every suggestion every expert ever posted and reposted on these (and other) forums?  Um, no.  I can't.  Why?  Because I'd quit first.

This is a ridiculously cool hobby and I'm glad I found a way back to it that works for me. So I'm here for the duration (or at least until I can get rid of "Cellerman").

Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 12, 2019, 02:06:00 AM
Here is my first post on this thread.  I obviously have some catching up to do, and not certain if I will have time to stay on here presently (as I am yes at work and yes kind of busy, almost sorry I dropped by).

Regarding the Bamforth thing, I'm happy to see that he shows no fear in expressing his opinion, which of course is HIS OPINION and isn't anything anywhere close to approaching shoving anything down anyone's throat, nowhere near the same manner in which certain other topics have been shoved down.  But anywho.

EDIT: And make no mistake... this forum, and most if not all other forums, are on their deathbed, even if maybe for no better reason than the old farts are dying off while everyone else is too busy texting their acquaintances and watching videos of cats on YouTube.  It's almost time for all the rest of us to move on and do the same -- lose interest due to such terribly low traffic, conform to the idiocy, then die.

EDIT2: The other trouble with the inevitable low traffic that is happening (not just here but everywhere except for Facebook) is that the only folks who seem to want to stick around on forums like this one are either A) Noobs, or B) the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions.  And inevitably, the B folks will quickly scare away all the A.  There will always be noobs but they'll never want to stick around as they can't grasp all the concepts and arguments, and certainly don't want to put up with our sh1t.

I consider myself a realist.  Not a pessimist.  Realist.  This is reality.

But I digress, sorry.

So I'll jump in where I don't belong because I haven't yet earned my wings.  Or maybe this is exactly where I belong because of that.

Bamforth...meh.  And your first Edit was highly entertaining.  Well done.

But I would have to take an exception to the whole Edit 2.  Consider me a flag waiving member of Group A, the Noobs.  Or another way to put it, the group with the most excitement and enthusiasm when it comes to digging into something new...something fun.  Ready to learn, ready to up my game.  To think that a few Get off my Lawn curmudgeons are going to scare me away is selling me short.  Maybe I'm an exception, but I doubt it.

Another point...yeah, about that Group B.  Maybe I have the benefit of a few too many winters, but I learned a long time ago that the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions are often using that as a cover for some other shortcoming or insecurity.  So the louder someone shouts, regardless of how many [equations] and fancy symbols used for my benefit, the less I pay attention.  Yawn.

And frankly, with all due respect, I have found out in a few short months since returning to this hobby that there is so much misinformation in printed books (surprise) and floating around the internet (not a surprise) that it really is hard to believe anyone.  Especially when it comes to dry hopping.  :)  We can all get from grain (or LME) to glass however we like, however it is most enjoyable. Can I brew a better beer if I followed every suggestion every expert ever posted and reposted on these (and other) forums?  Um, no.  I can't.  Why?  Because I'd quit first.

This is a ridiculously cool hobby and I'm glad I found a way back to it that works for me. So I'm here for the duration (or at least until I can get rid of "Cellerman").

Hang around, learn, have fun give good advice when you can.

I was a noob once. We all brewed our first beer.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 02:18:42 AM
This forum does tend to run in cycles.  But don't go writing our obituary.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dmtaylor on July 12, 2019, 02:31:24 AM
Tick tock.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on July 12, 2019, 02:37:14 AM
First off, let me second Derek's opinion that this is The Pub, and anything here needs to be taken in proper context. Furthermore if you're on this subforum, aren't working/about to drive, and don't have a beer in your hand...you're at least more likely to take things the wrong way.

Second:
EDIT2: The other trouble with the inevitable low traffic that is happening (not just here but everywhere except for Facebook) is that the only folks who seem to want to stick around on forums like this one are either A) Noobs, or B) the ones with the strongest and most vocal opinions.  And inevitably, the B folks will quickly scare away all the A.  There will always be noobs but they'll never want to stick around as they can't grasp all the concepts and arguments, and certainly don't want to put up with our sh1t.

I consider myself a realist.  Not a pessimist.  Realist.  This is reality.

But I digress, sorry.

I'm sorry, but this is an issue not just related to beer. I'm a Senior Engineering Technician, a team lead, and a Millennial (I'm 32, FWIW.) I started as an apprentice and worked me way up, and let me say that those in technical fields know: We're brutal to new folks.

It's not that we're assholes...(ok well maybe we are, but we don't intend to be)...it's just that if you don't fall in line with the laws of physics you can't work in a technical field. I've got issues hiring personnel because of this: Too few people are willing to "Tough it out and grasp all the concepts and arguments", as dmtaylor so eloquently put it.

Here's why that matters: An apprentice with an opinion generally isn't regarded as well as a higher level tech. It's OK to have a dissenting opinion...but the dissent of an apprentice doesn't carry the same weight as a full tech. (Whose opinion doesn't carry the same weight as a Junior Engineer, whose don't matter vs. a senior tech, and so on...)

Don't see this issue with engineers, because school gets them past the basics point.

And it's the same with beer. Don't believe me? Try convincing a run of the mill craft brewer with cloudy beer that his Pils isn't acceptable because it shouldn't include yeast particles. Someone who grasped the concepts wouldn't have done that unless he had to...the apprentice still thinks "But it's my interpretation of a Pils, so you're wrong."

I don't care about fruit beer, IPA, Lager, whatever. Just please at least TRY and do some study and make it well.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on July 12, 2019, 05:42:54 AM
↑↑↑↑this↑↑↑↑
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 12, 2019, 12:50:51 PM
Is the Forum dying? I don't know.

What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

Homebrewing sees growth in tough economic times, this recovery has been long. Now there are breweries in every small town it seems, will people want to Homebrew in the next recession, when craft beer is just around the corner?



Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 01:19:46 PM




And it's the same with beer. Don't believe me? Try convincing a run of the mill craft brewer with cloudy beer that his Pils isn't acceptable because it shouldn't include yeast particles. Someone who grasped the concepts wouldn't have done that unless he had to...the apprentice still thinks "But it's my interpretation of a Pils, so you're wrong."

I don't care about fruit beer, IPA, Lager, whatever. Just please at least TRY and do some study and make it well.

The great refuge of the mediocre brewer:  What I call the "Pee Wee Herman"  --  you know, sneer and say "I meant to do that."

Once, in the early days, it was, "This beer is so much better than the macro lager that's all you know, you're just incapable of recognizing it."

A little later it was, "It's Belgian."  (Then somebody found out what real Belgian beer was like, and that didn't work anymore.)

Now it's just the straight-up, fully-entitled, Pee Wee Herman.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: tommymorris on July 12, 2019, 05:47:09 PM
I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dmtaylor on July 12, 2019, 06:23:44 PM
I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.

I strongly encourage you to be sure to use Sorachi Ace hops (which taste strongly of dill).
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: tommymorris on July 12, 2019, 06:46:47 PM
I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.

I strongly encourage you to be sure to use Sorachi Ace hops (which taste strongly of dill).
Good tip. Thanks!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 06:57:42 PM


I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.

I strongly encourage you to be sure to use Sorachi Ace hops (which taste strongly of dill).
Good tip. Thanks!

If you really want to try this, you might look into Pickle from Urban Artifact in Cincinnati for ideas on how-to.   It's not aged on anything and contains no actual pickles.  It's a Gose, brewed with a $#!? ton of fresh cucumbers and a wad of fresh dill and I think coriander and other pickly stuff.  I've never tried it, and don't want to, just doesn't sound like my thing.  But everyone else says it smells and tastes exactly like a fresh pickle.  I love pickles, BTW.   Especially fresh, lactic, half-sours.  Which this beer probably resembles.  But I am a curmudgeon, and will continue to snack on pickles alongside my beer-flavored beer.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Visor on July 12, 2019, 07:44:48 PM
Is the Forum dying? I don't know.

What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

Homebrewing sees growth in tough economic times, this recovery has been long. Now there are breweries in every small town it seems, will people want to Homebrew in the next recession, when craft beer is just around the corner?
   WHAT? There's gonna be 'nuther recession? Holy crap, we're still in the middle of the last one 'round here!
   There will always be at least a few people home brewing regardless of the economy or other forces, how many is something we'll just have wait and see. On the surface it appears to me at least that most of the under 50 crowd are so hopelessly addicted to their thumb dancing pursuits, but a closer look reveals that there are still plenty of younger people that are just as avidly engaged in creative activities whether they be brewing, quilting, woodworking, gardening or knuckle busting. The digital world can be very alluring, but the part of the populace that is driven to make stuff is always going to find more quality of life in drinking the beer they brewed while eating the garden salad they grew than in responding to some nitwit's latest Fakebook post.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: jeffy on July 12, 2019, 07:52:57 PM


I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.

I strongly encourage you to be sure to use Sorachi Ace hops (which taste strongly of dill).
Good tip. Thanks!

If you really want to try this, you might look into Pickle from Urban Artifact in Cincinnati for ideas on how-to.   It's not aged on anything and contains no actual pickles.  It's a Gose, brewed with a $#!? ton of fresh cucumbers and a wad of fresh dill and I think coriander and other pickly stuff.  I've never tried it, and don't want to, just doesn't sound like my thing.  But everyone else says it smells and tastes exactly like a fresh pickle.  I love pickles, BTW.   Especially fresh, lactic, half-sours.  Which this beer probably resembles.  But I am a curmudgeon, and will continue to snack on pickles alongside my beer-flavored beer.
I saw that on their menu when I was in Cinci in the Spring, but it was not something I wanted to try.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 08:18:16 PM


Is the Forum dying? I don't know.

What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

Homebrewing sees growth in tough economic times, this recovery has been long. Now there are breweries in every small town it seems, will people want to Homebrew in the next recession, when craft beer is just around the corner?
   WHAT? There's gonna be 'nuther recession? Holy crap, we're still in the middle of the last one 'round here!
   There will always be at least a few people home brewing regardless of the economy or other forces, how many is something we'll just have wait and see. On the surface it appears to me at least that most of the under 50 crowd are so hopelessly addicted to their thumb dancing pursuits, but a closer look reveals that there are still plenty of younger people that are just as avidly engaged in creative activities whether they be brewing, quilting, woodworking, gardening or knuckle busting. The digital world can be very alluring, but the part of the populace that is driven to make stuff is always going to find more quality of life in drinking the beer they brewed while eating the garden salad they grew than in responding to some nitwit's latest Fakebook post.

Indeed.   When I hear the popular term "Maker," I immediately conjure up an image of somebody much younger than myself.   I think us older folks were much more inured to a fast-food, packaged, throw away, convenience lifestyle that younger people -- SOME of them at least, and increasingly in urban areas and not just the old, rural, purely-out-of-necessity DIY strongholds -- have reacted against.   Nobody I was aware of in my generation was knitting in their 20s, or going to whole hog butchering classes on a date, for crying out loud.  And the people in the older generation who weren't inclined to do hands-on stuff may not have had all the electronic and virtual distractions, but surely had no trouble finding other inane pursuits to numb their brain cells.  But the new hobbyists' approach to homebrewing both in terms of technique, thanks to options that never existed before we grew the hobby up, and what they value in it, inevitably is changing -- but probably broadening, not contracting.  The question of this forum's future is probably not determined by subject matter.  It's just a matter of shifting options and preferences in how people communicate and organize socially.   The online forum didn't exist once.  Magazines and pay phones and those bulletin board 8 1/2 x 11 notices you tore a fringe with a phone number off of did.  I have a hard time envisioning what could possibly supersede this perfectly desirable medium.  But that's my lack of imagination.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on July 12, 2019, 08:36:36 PM
When I hear the term "Maker", i conjure up an image of someone who tinkers around but never sticks with something long enough to get past the basics and into the science.

Basically, continual apprentices.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dmtaylor on July 12, 2019, 08:42:50 PM
When I hear the term "Maker", i conjure up an image of someone who tinkers around but never sticks with something long enough to get past the basics and into the science.

Basically, continual apprentices.

Yup.

I never heard the term Maker until now.  Looked it up.  I understand now.  To me the line looks very blurry between the term Maker and the term Hipster.  Jump on the bandwagon to whatever the current fad is, have fun being a "Maker" of whatever it is for a few months... then move onto the next thing.  Kind of fun... and kind of a waste at the same time, IMO.  I mean, I think of all the people I've known over the years who have brewed one or two or even three batches of beer, and the beers even turned out pretty darn good.... and then they gave up the hobby and never looked back.  Like I gave my own brother some equipment and he brewed two batches, and they were good (with my assistance)...... and that was like 15 years ago and he hasn't brewed one single time again since then.  Same for my bro-in-law.  Fickles.

I'm such an old fuddy duddy.   ;D
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 09:02:40 PM
When I hear the term "Maker", i conjure up an image of someone who tinkers around but never sticks with something long enough to get past the basics and into the science.

Basically, continual apprentices.
And before they get financing to open a brewery, they damn well ought to have progressed way beyond that (sadly not generally the case.)  But that is sufficient to keep the hobby supplied with a continual influx of new participants, even if, as Dave observes, most of them are transient.   That's always been the case.  From the early days, how many people got a bucket and saved some Grolsch bottles, tried a couple of Coopers or John Bull kits in the dorm, maybe got an apartment and tried something else more ambitious, and then life happened.   I don't see dilettantism presenting the hobby with an existential threat.  (Or commercial beer.  It'll just all be Big Beer again someday.)  A few people will always want to really learn and take it to the highest level, while most never will.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: tommymorris on July 12, 2019, 09:11:42 PM


I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.

I strongly encourage you to be sure to use Sorachi Ace hops (which taste strongly of dill).
Good tip. Thanks!


But I am a curmudgeon, and will continue to snack on pickles alongside my beer-flavored beer.
The maker in me says, “I’ve dabbled in this pickle beer thing long enough. I’ll just have a pickle with my beer-flavored beer.”
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 09:24:58 PM


I am planning a pickle flavored beer. Should I age the beer on bread butter or dill pickles?

The base beer will of course be a saison fermented with wild yeast collected from cucumbers grown in my neighbor’s yard.

I strongly encourage you to be sure to use Sorachi Ace hops (which taste strongly of dill).
Good tip. Thanks!


But I am a curmudgeon, and will continue to snack on pickles alongside my beer-flavored beer.
The maker in me says, “I’ve dabbled in this pickle beer thing long enough. I’ll just have a pickle with my beer-flavored beer.”

That's because you, sir, have stuck around long enough to really learn some things!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Megary on July 12, 2019, 09:44:10 PM
Every generation has had Makers and Hipsters and every other type of ers. Just called them something different is all. Every new generation pisses off the older ones. That’s their job and that’s the way it should be. Embrace it.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: dmtaylor on July 12, 2019, 10:48:34 PM
Every generation has had Makers and Hipsters and every other type of ers. Just called them something different is all. Every new generation pisses off the older ones. That’s their job and that’s the way it should be. Embrace it.

True, ain't it!  LOL
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on July 12, 2019, 11:51:32 PM
Every generation has had Makers and Hipsters and every other type of ers. Just called them something different is all. Every new generation pisses off the older ones. That’s their job and that’s the way it should be. Embrace it.

True, but as a millennial myself I think this is different. Yes every generation hates on the next...but honestly this whole maker thing is more based on delusion than a "yall's music today sucks" kinda thing.

This is how I see it:
A maker, with a four year business degree and a good job graduates from Estes rockets to making rockets from scratch thinks he's actually accomplishing something to benefit the space age. Compare and contrast that with the guy who is apprenticed as a tech and at the same age is in community college working on his ASE using an Estes rocket to model trajectory for his Dynamics course...
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: AzBruin on July 13, 2019, 04:06:41 AM
I disagree with your put downs on "makers". I consider myself a "maker" because I prefer to do most things myself. I won't let anyone work on my car, if it needs something, I do it. I make my own furniture. I can my own food. I make my own beer. I facet gemstones and make jewelry. My lifelong day job is repairing aircraft.
I am not a millennial, I'm a bit over 60. You might say I'm a jack of all trades, including carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.
I do all these things because they need doing, and I get satisfaction from doing them myself. And, if something is not up to snuff, I don't have anyone else to blame.

Rant off. Time for another stout.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: BrewnWKopperKat on July 13, 2019, 12:50:27 PM
This forum does tend to run in cycles.  But don't go writing our obituary.

That's what I see as well.  For me, it feels the other two (of the top 3 forums) slows down as well - but in different ways.  IMO, "answer quality" seems to drop off around the time of HomeBrewCon in one of those other places. And double digit growth isn't sustainable in the long run. 

Searchable forums (AHA, HBT) appear to be a great source of searchable information. As a side effect, there may not be a need to sign up to ask a question.  Occasionally, I see posts here (and over at HBT) where a new poster starts a question with "I tried searching for XYZZY, but couldn't find the answer".  For the questions they are asking, it appears to me that the new posters generally have 1) good search skills and 1) a difficult to search for questions.  Forums could provide value here with current FAQs, 'stickies', and articles.

Personally, I'm finding that many of my questions can be answered by searching (generally eBooks) a number of current home brewing books or by looking at recent HomeBrewCon presentations. 

Does anyone here have just a phone? 

Has anyone here tried to learn (or re-learn) how to brew with just a phone?

 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Visor on July 13, 2019, 11:35:48 PM
   The generally negative connotation the term "Maker" has to many people is the very reason I deliberately avoided using it.
    Like a lot of other DIY'ers I've been making stuff and fixin stuff and modifying stuff for as long as I can remember, I laugh when I think of all the times my dad jumped on in the middle s!@#t for not putting his tools back where they belonged. I don't spend much time or mental effort trying to define myself to myself, others are usually eager to do it for me, but I've always understood that my love, in reality need to create/make/modify stuff isn't something that the majority of humanity shares, but there still are a buttload of people more or less like me in this regard. Hence this forum. I'm the knucklebustin' gearheads and the quilters and the gardeners and potters have a numerous forums dedicated to those addictions.
   I think I am fundamentally different from the stereotypical Maker as the term is used today, but if some chose to call me that I'm not gonna get my knickers in a wad. I also don't want to be unfairly critical of dilettantes [as someone referred to them] for bouncing from one interest to another, at least they have a desire to do something creative, and there is no creative outlet that is ideal for everyone. There are a number of hobbies that I once avidly pursued that are no longer things I engage in - I have several dozen Ukrainian Easter eggs from the days when I indulged that interest, the newest one is over 40 years old. I still am known by a good percentage of the town as the crazy guy who had a garden in his front yard, and had a garden every year - even when working out of town - for over 20 years, but I haven't grown one in almost 20. I took a 25 years hiatus from brewing because life happened.
   I am currently more intensely into beer making than I was in the past, but that may change over time, and if it does some other Maker interest will probably be the cause of the diminishment. If I lived a healthy, wealthy & free 1,000 years I wouldn't have enough time to do all the maker stuff I already have on my list!!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on July 14, 2019, 03:39:08 AM
I disagree with your put downs on "makers". I consider myself a "maker" because I prefer to do most things myself. I won't let anyone work on my car, if it needs something, I do it. I make my own furniture. I can my own food. I make my own beer. I facet gemstones and make jewelry. My lifelong day job is repairing aircraft.
I am not a millennial, I'm a bit over 60. You might say I'm a jack of all trades, including carpentry, masonry, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC.
I do all these things because they need doing, and I get satisfaction from doing them myself. And, if something is not up to snuff, I don't have anyone else to blame.

Rant off. Time for another stout.

See, you're saying maker, but what I'm hearing is Renaissance man. Half the issue with the average person dubbed a "maker" is they do a only somewhat passable job at best, or do a job that only relates to something of little practical value, like movie props or cosplay.

Why I tend to put "makers" forward with a somewhat negative connotation is a direct result of many I've encountered who aren't willing to put in the time to become proficient.

FWIW, I do all my own vehicle maintenance as well, up to and including pulling transmissions and swapping engines. I've got an LS I'm pulling now in fact, recipient vehicle is still TBS. Just finished some work on my Camaro that should have it in the high 11's.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 14, 2019, 03:56:20 AM
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Phil_M on July 14, 2019, 01:09:40 PM
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: kgs on July 14, 2019, 02:54:58 PM
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.

So, where I work we have a great makerspace which has many positive outcomes for its primary users (university students and faculty). First, I do see what I call "makerhate" among some folks. Well, some people don't like anything, particularly if they didn't invent it. But, more to the emerging maker thread, there was an early meeting of makerspace doers, supporters, proponents, etc. and I think 3/4 of the people attending that meeting were homebrewers!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 14, 2019, 03:50:32 PM
Wow, I opened a can of worms!  Guess I wasn't aware that "maker" had acquired this negative sense.  When I quoted it I was thinking in terms more like the way Visor and AzBruin are using it.  A sense that it had a decade or more ago when it first appeared on my radar.   Like a DIYer, but more of an inventive, resourceful, junkyard engineering, tinkering sort.  Oops, now "tinkering" is probably a semantic landmine.  But I thought this was a sensibility that was coming back around, as things do every couple of generations.  Pendulum swings.

I think it mostly has a negative connotation because of how many tend to refuse help from knowledgeable sources and instead rely upon unverified bad advice, often from the internet.

If you consider yourself a maker and you don't fall into that trap, then I have no beef with you.

So, where I work we have a great makerspace which has many positive outcomes for its primary users (university students and faculty). First, I do see what I call "makerhate" among some folks. Well, some people don't like anything, particularly if they didn't invent it. But, more to the emerging maker thread, there was an early meeting of makerspace doers, supporters, proponents, etc. and I think 3/4 of the people attending that meeting were homebrewers!

Makers are a huge part of the homebrew culture.  The AHA is aware of that and has been targeting maker faire.  It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: reverseapachemaster on July 14, 2019, 04:09:05 PM
What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

I find it odd that the AHA seems to be pushing new membership a lot less than it has in past years which probably does not help the issue. I remember a few years ago the AHA did a lot of giveaways for new memberships/renewals and felt like I saw advertisements all over for membership but now not so much. I don't know if there was a low ROI on those efforts or what motivated that to change.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 15, 2019, 02:23:13 AM
What I do know is that the AHA membership numbers are flat, after many years of double-digit growth. Craft Brewer are also seeing slower growth.

I find it odd that the AHA seems to be pushing new membership a lot less than it has in past years which probably does not help the issue. I remember a few years ago the AHA did a lot of giveaways for new memberships/renewals and felt like I saw advertisements all over for membership but now not so much. I don't know if there was a low ROI on those efforts or what motivated that to change.

At HomebrewCon there was a discussion of what will be coming. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on July 15, 2019, 02:51:37 AM
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: tommymorris on July 15, 2019, 12:50:43 PM
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Homebrewing can be very simple. But, it can also be as complex as you want to make it.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Big Monk on July 15, 2019, 01:49:30 PM
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Homebrewing can be very simple. But, it can also be as complex as you want to make it.

I think Bilsch was referring to the concept that nothing could be simpler than simply going to the store and buying beer. I don't think it was an indictment of one's personal motivations for complexity in brewing.

 ;)
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Bilsch on July 16, 2019, 05:02:43 AM
Indeed. IMO anything beyond a Mr. Beer kit and it ceases to be simple anymore.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 16, 2019, 11:22:18 AM
OTOH Denny's principle of "make the best beer possible... doing the least work possible,"  doing everything necessary but nothing without a good reason, is not by any stretch reducing the process to "mere" homebrewing.  It's optimization of process.  It ought to apply to professionals as well.  One would think that no mega brewer would stay in business very long taking unnecessary steps.  (But then AB can somehow afford to kräusen; maybe it really serves a necessary purpose.)  Likewise one would think no craft brewer would survive very long lazily cutting too many corners.  (But then....)
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 16, 2019, 02:23:47 PM
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.
Homebrewing can be very simple. But, it can also be as complex as you want to make it.

Old AHA slogan....."It's not rocket science unless you want it to be".
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 16, 2019, 02:24:33 PM
It was also part of the impetus behind Simple Homebrewing.

Simple homebrewing seems like a contradiction in terms to me.

Not at all...it's experienced brewers who are most in need of the concept.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Big Monk on July 16, 2019, 02:36:16 PM
Brewing itself, even at its most heady and scientific, is simple.

Maybe we don’t want to conflate simplicity with difficulty but rather relate simplicity to to saving time. The reason I can’t brew much (or at all mostly) anymore is the time it takes and not the difficulty.

Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 16, 2019, 02:49:06 PM
Brewing itself, even at its most heady and scientific, is simple.

Maybe we don’t want to conflate simplicity with difficulty but rather relate simplicity to to saving time. The reason I can’t brew much (or at all mostly) anymore is the time it takes and not the difficulty.

That's very much true.  If you embrace simplicity by cutting out the unnecessary,  it will save you time.

One thing that's getting overlooked is that simplicity is a personal decision.  A Sabco BrewMagic might be simp,e for one person, while a cooler system might be simple for another. The simplicity concept is about identifying what works for you.
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 16, 2019, 03:23:27 PM



One thing that's getting overlooked is that simplicity is a personal decision.  A Sabco BrewMagic might be simp,e for one person, while a cooler system might be simple for another. The simplicity concept is about identifying what works for you.

+1
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: kgs on July 26, 2019, 01:01:38 PM

One thing that's getting overlooked is that simplicity is a personal decision.  A Sabco BrewMagic might be simp,e for one person, while a cooler system might be simple for another. The simplicity concept is about identifying what works for you.

I have been chewing over this for a few days. If I can say yes/and to this statement, then my yes/and is that within organizational frameworks (e.g. the world of homebrewers, the AHA, the AHA Forum), implicit norms can develop (and evolve, and be challenged etc.) about what is meant by terms such as "simplicity." These norms can inform the systems surrounding these organizations, such as the default norm for batch sizes being 5 gallons, assumptions about brewers being able to lift large amounts of grain and water throughout the process, etc. Alternatively, innovation can challenge these norms and simplify the complicated, such as electric brewing and step temperatures in the mash process. Sorry for the Friday morning abstraction. I bought Denny's book and it arrives tonight, so I can spend the weekend reading about simplicity and brewing, which is even easier than actually brewing. 
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: AzBruin on July 26, 2019, 08:21:20 PM
Which of Denny's books did you order? I like them both!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 26, 2019, 08:31:54 PM
Which of Denny's books did you order? I like them both!

New one is Simple Homebrewing
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: Robert on July 26, 2019, 08:34:05 PM
Which of Denny's books did you order? I like them both!

New one is Simple Homebrewing
Wait, there's more than two, right?
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: denny on July 26, 2019, 08:47:52 PM
Which of Denny's books did you order? I like them both!

New one is Simple Homebrewing
Wait, there's more than two, right?

Yeah, 3...

Experimental Homebrewing
Homebrew All Stars
Simple Homebrewing

plus I was a contributor to Craft Beer for the Homebrewer
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: AzBruin on July 27, 2019, 01:41:11 AM
Thanks Denny! Just found both of those on Amazon!
Title: Re: This has gone far enough!
Post by: kgs on July 27, 2019, 01:52:02 AM
Which of Denny's books did you order? I like them both!

New one is Simple Homebrewing
Wait, there's more than two, right?

Yeah, 3...

Experimental Homebrewing
Homebrew All Stars
Simple Homebrewing

plus I was a contributor to Craft Beer for the Homebrewer

I bought Simple Homebrewing -- I already own Homebrew All Stars