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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 09:26:07 PM

Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 09:26:07 PM
I am in a dilemma right now as I want to try my hand at low dissolved oxygen brewing but I also want to use a Decoction mash schedule.  My question is fairly simple, does Decoction mashing destroy the purpose of low oxygen brewing?  Secondary question; if not, is there a Best practice I should be utilizing?

Thanks for your input!

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: natebrews on July 02, 2019, 09:45:32 PM
Decoctions are basically incompatible with low oxygen brewing due to the oxygen you will pick up during those steps.  If you want to try out low oxygen brewing I would stick with a non-decoction mashing regiments.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 09:46:51 PM
Decoctions are basically incompatible with low oxygen brewing due to the oxygen you will pick up during those steps.  If you want to try out low oxygen brewing I would stick with a non-decoction mashing regiments.
Thanks Nate!  Kind of what I thought.  I was thinking that the boiling of the thick mash might negate that.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: natebrews on July 02, 2019, 09:49:26 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 09:53:31 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 02, 2019, 10:00:55 PM
Decoctions are basically incompatible with low oxygen brewing due to the oxygen you will pick up during those steps.  If you want to try out low oxygen brewing I would stick with a non-decoction mashing regiments.
Thanks Nate!  Kind of what I thought.  I was thinking that the boiling of the thick mash might negate that.

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The boiling will drive oxygen out, but it will already have been added in there and done its damage.  The idea of low oxygen brewhouse method is to get all the oxygen out of the water before mash in, and then not let any more in throughout the process.  So pulling decoctions just doesn't fit.  Note this is maybe the biggest factor in the divergence of Czech and German Pilsners -- the one is LODO all the way, the other is exposed to HSA throughout, from mash in, to decoctions, to collecting wort in open grants, to old time coolships and Baudelot coolers.  If you want to try decoctions, try a Czech style and forego all the LODO measures.  It would be a fascinating comparison especially if you used the same grain and hop recipe for each!
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 02, 2019, 10:03:59 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 10:11:31 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 02, 2019, 10:16:27 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!  
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 10:26:54 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!
I disagree a little.  Color isn't the only reason for Decoction.  I am a firm believer that boiling of the grain really draws out that bread crust delicious toasty flavor we all drool over in a good pilsner. 

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 02, 2019, 11:15:29 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 11:18:59 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 02, 2019, 11:20:16 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 02, 2019, 11:25:07 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Super cool!  Thanks for that!  So, what's your opinion on LODO then Denny?  Should I forgo Decoction for LoDO?  Should I skip both and just infuse? 

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Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 03:30:43 AM
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 




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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:36:21 AM
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed. 




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Okay, where are the sources on that?  I appreciate your input, but would love to see the science on that.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 03:38:29 AM
I literally wrote the book on low oxygen brewing.   My sources are here


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:41:55 AM
I literally wrote the book on low oxygen brewing.   My sources are here


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


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Sweet! Thanks!  That's actually where I started my research for brewing LODO.  Thanks for supplying the community with that!

So, Denny's research actually shows there is a significant correlation that Decoction method is preferred to step mashing.  That said, we haven't seen any research for Decoction vs LODO. 

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Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 03:47:22 AM
Oh yes we have,  which why we recommend not doing it.   Very few in Germany are decoction mashing anything anymore, and usually if they do it’s just Hefeweizen.   It’s a gelatinization temp of the wheat starch and efficiency thing though. 

People like ayinger, paulaner, spaten, weihenstephaner, etc are step mashing.   Augustiner, and bitburger are the only ones that come to mind that are still decocting.  Mostly single decoctions at that.  WITH THAT SAID the have multimillion dollar brewhouses where slurrys are pumped in a inert environment. 


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:48:54 AM
Oh yes we have,  which why we recommend not doing it.   Very few in Germany are decoction mashing anything anymore, and usually if they do it’s just Hefeweizen.   It’s a gelatinization temp of the wheat starch and efficiency thing though. 

People like ayinger, paulaner, spaten, weihenstephaner, etc are step mashing.   Augustiner, and bitburger are the only ones that come to mind that are still decocting.  WITH THAT SAID the have multimillion dollar brewhouses where slurrys are pumped in a inert environment. 


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Oh cool!!!  It's actually kind of funny, I just got back from my trip to Bavaria and Augusteiner were my favorites!

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 03:50:20 AM
Sure, augustiner is amazing.  But it’s not decoction that makes them that. 


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:52:31 AM
Sure, augustiner is amazing.  But it’s not decoction that makes them that. 


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Sure, it's the super sophisticated equipment that isn't available to homebrewers (for a reasonable price anyway).

Anyway, thanks! 

Now that I've decided to go LoDO for my brewday tomorrow, do you have suggestions for step mashing? I'd have to do infusion as I can't directly heat my MT.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 03:57:52 AM
Well equipment and basically the most highly trained brewing professionals. 


Without knowing your malt lots I don’t.  Dough in, beta somewhere in the 140’s (could be 144-149 depending on gelatinization temps), some alpha around 162-4, and a mash out around 170. 

Have all water deoxygenated/sulfites and add gently. 
Though I don’t know that I would do that on my first go round with the method.  You will already have enough changes in routine.  Get the bugs worked out on the first 10 batches then turn the levers. 


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:59:06 AM
Well equipment and basically the most highly trained brewing professionals. 


Without knowing your malt lots I don’t.  Dough in, beta somewhere in the 140’s (could be 144-149 depending on gelatinization temps), some alpha around 162-4, and a mash out around 170. 

Have all water deoxygenated/sulfites and add gently. 
Though I don’t know that I would do that on my first go round with the method.  You will already have enough changes in routine.  Get the bugs worked out on the first 10 batches then turn the levers. 


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Cool, I'll start simple... Maybe this isn't the recipe to start trying new things on as I intend to enter it into a comp.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 03, 2019, 11:45:21 AM
 Brewtopalonian,  I had made a couple of attempts to go all in on low oxygen.  Since I already had pretty solid side hot side practices and my cold side locked down tight, most of the adjustments were hardly intrusive:  adding antioxidants to my water treatment regime, adding mash, lauter and HLT caps.  In my sleep.  The PITA that held me back was deoxygenating the liquor in the first place.  Boiling and cooling was just impractical in my system and on my brew day schedule.  But there's the yeast scavenging method detailed on the LOB site.  I'd always balked at it because I was sure it would contribute some objectionable flavor.  Well I finally tried it.  Easy as can be, works perfectly, no flavors added... even if it did, it would be one of those cases the benefits far outweigh.  With one simple technique,  it's now been possible for me, with a pretty old school setup on the hot side, to implement a low oxygen brewhouse.  It might be something you want to consider too.  Anyway, good luck.
Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 03, 2019, 12:36:29 PM
I have been making smaller steps (though not required) as described in BRAUWELT INTERNATIONAL | 2016/V 309:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190703/cc46ea78d773a361476d22a62a7f42aa.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190703/dd24e1c11b9856c8dd2d07b5ee6279e7.jpg)

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 03, 2019, 12:58:30 PM
I have been making smaller steps (though not required) as described in BRAUWELT INTERNATIONAL | 2016/V 309:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190703/cc46ea78d773a361476d22a62a7f42aa.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190703/dd24e1c11b9856c8dd2d07b5ee6279e7.jpg)

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That flexibility is one great advantage of your RIMS system.  Using direct fire on the kettle, I find it more practical to use a single beta rest target, which may drop off a bit and be boosted back once during the 30 minute period.  This also limits stirring, a non issue for you.  I suspect Brewtopalonian, using infusions, will have to assess his capacity to achieve and hold temperatures and just how many and how large infusions he has room to make in planning a step program.  If his goal is to end up with a full volume mash and no sparge, less restricted.  But you still need room to hit and hold the more critical 160°F and 170°F steps.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 03, 2019, 02:33:40 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Super cool!  Thanks for that!  So, what's your opinion on LODO then Denny?  Should I forgo Decoction for LoDO?  Should I skip both and just infuse? 

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My opinion is that whatever advantages LODO may provide aren't worth the expense and effort for me.  You should make your own decision.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 03, 2019, 02:35:58 PM
I literally wrote the book on low oxygen brewing.   My sources are here


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/


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Sweet! Thanks!  That's actually where I started my research for brewing LODO.  Thanks for supplying the community with that!

So, Denny's research actually shows there is a significant correlation that Decoction method is preferred to step mashing.  That said, we haven't seen any research for Decoction vs LODO. 

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You're overlooking the big picture...while decoction was preferred over single infusion, if you combine infusion and go preference it's more than decoction.  That says to me there is no clear preference for decocted beers.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 03, 2019, 02:38:11 PM
All the stirring and then the scooping it out and returning it to the mash are all points where you can pickup oxygen exposure.   I suppose that there could be some sort of amazing piece of equipment that would do it all in a closed system that never exposed it to air...but I certainly don't have that.
Cool, yeah it was a long shot, but I had to ask if anyone figured a way to do it without too much O2 pickup.  I am kinda bummed because I really don't think there's a way to impart the typical Bavarian toasty flavors without Decoction mashing, at the same time I know a lot of big breweries use LoDO in Germany....  Catch 22 here.

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Try the low oxygen routine and you may be surprised.  It's not about GETTING those flavors in there, it's about KEEPING them in there, they're already in the good Pilsner malt.  Just don't want them all running off with the oxygen before you get to enjoy them.
Well I'm making a Munich Dunkel this go around so I will just utilize the decoctions as I normally do for this style.  But maybe I try it with a Pilsner.  Thanks Robert!

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If I ever tried decoctions, it would surely be with a Dunkel.  As I understand it the dark malt can really have a lot more color and flavor drawn out by the boiling.  With Pilsner malt, there's just none of that to draw out.  You can boil it all day and it won't turn into dark malt!

Back in 2006, when I did my decoction experiment, one of the beers I brewed was a dunkel, one version single infusion, the other single decoction.  No one could tell the difference.  FWIW, same results with a German pils.
Huh, cool!  For whatever reason, I've done the experiment myself with a pils Urquell clone and could definitely notice the difference.  Can't argue with results though.  If you had a bunch of people not be able to tell the difference then it definitely wouldn't be worth the extra effort.

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Start on pg. 25.....http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf
Super cool!  Thanks for that!  So, what's your opinion on LODO then Denny?  Should I forgo Decoction for LoDO?  Should I skip both and just infuse? 

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My opinion is that whatever advantages LODO may provide aren't worth the expense and effort for me.  You should make your own decision.
Yeah, as I mentioned it was ultimately so little effort to make the last adjustments that it makes no sense for me not to do it. But everybody has their own goals and priorities.  And for certain styles it just doesn't make sense.  But if you think it might be for you, only one way to find out.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 02:39:54 PM
I'm just so happy we can finally have a civilized discussion about this on here. Unlike many other places.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:16:31 PM
Me too!  This is an interesting conversation for sure.  In brewing, there are a hundred "right" ways to make beer and it's great to hear everyone's opinion.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 03:21:24 PM
After careful thought and listening to everyone on here, I think I will try my hand at LoDo today using a step mash infusion.  It really won't change much about my normal brewday and is actually less work than Decoction.  I do have to use the LoDO calculator to figure out my additions, but I am already fairly fluent with Bru'n water and this shouldn't be much additional work.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: mainebrewer on July 03, 2019, 04:25:56 PM
To echo Robert, I've been able to implement many of the LoDo procedures in my basic brewing system (single burner, mash in a cooler) with little or no additional expense and time. I do intend to add a pump to the system in the near future which will allow me to implement a couple more of the recommended practices.
While it may be confirmation bias since I haven't done any side by side experiments, I find that the beer stays fresher longer. 
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: brian_welch on July 03, 2019, 04:50:52 PM
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 


I think you mean Southern Bavarians and large industrial brewers, not all Germans. Definitely not the Franconians (not to mention the Czechs).  https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/ (https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/) Homebrewing for many is a lot closer to old school, small family brewery brewing (open fermenting, for example) rather than large modern industrial brewing. 

One of the more interesting things I saw at HomebrewCon on Friday was back-to-back panels in the same ballroom with Denny claiming that decoction is a myth and doesn't make a difference (and referencing his experiment) followed by Gordon Strong right after saying that decoction definitely makes a (very positive) difference. Looking now at Denny's results it sure looks to me that decoction is preferred!

I have learned a lot from the LODO folks and try to incorporate as much of it is is practical (closed transfers, for example), but I am cheap and a traditionalist and I enjoy decoction.  Maybe if I were to brew a Helles (which is what LODO seems to be really all about) I might try to go all in on LODO. But it is probably my least favorite lager style. Guess that's why in my upcoming German beercation I am spending 5 days in Franconia and half a day in Munich. Brew what makes you happy and in a way that makes you happy. But don't think you HAVE to brew LODO since all the great lager brewers are LODO, because they are not.


Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 05:03:19 PM
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 05:03:31 PM
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 


I think you mean Southern Bavarians and large industrial brewers, not all Germans. Definitely not the Franconians (not to mention the Czechs).  https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/ (https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/) Homebrewing for many is a lot closer to old school, small family brewery brewing (open fermenting, for example) rather than large modern industrial brewing. 

Right, most everyone has only had the macro Germans.

The frankonians/czech are certainly old word, and homebrew practices mirror that of those.

However they know about HSA, and will tell you about it, and their house flavor. Not to mention the beer travels horribly.

I would wholeheartedly disagree on helles being the primary style to brew low oxygen, though it is a prime example. But all other beer styles brewed by the same brewers that make these helles, are brewed in the same fashion.

We had a decoction only brewer born and raised in Munich, when we started out with the group that brought this forward. Lets just say he has stopped decocting. Not to say YOU can't do it, but on our scale, especially with non specialized homebrew equipment, it won't be as good of a beer in the terms of the low oxygen beers. Not to say it won't be a good beer, but in these terms (low oxygen brewing) you will have a better product, since oxygen mitigation is paramount.

By all means though, brew how you want too.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 05:04:36 PM
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

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http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 05:08:25 PM
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

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http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: The Beerery on July 03, 2019, 05:11:08 PM
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Nearly everything in the brewing world works better with metric.

ppm = mg/l

20ppm =20mg/l

so for every L of brewing water add 20mg of antioxidant.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 05:13:04 PM
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Nearly everything in the brewing world works better with metric.

ppm = mg/l

20ppm =20mg/l

so for every L of brewing water add 20mg of antioxidant.
Ah yes, I love metric.  Thanks for that clarification... Time to do the math.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 03, 2019, 05:14:33 PM
Decoction essence is a myth. 

Id bet pretty much every German Dunkel ( or beer short of hefe) you have ever had is step mashed.  As Zee Germans have found since about 1970, that is does more hurt than good. 


I think you mean Southern Bavarians and large industrial brewers, not all Germans. Definitely not the Franconians (not to mention the Czechs).  https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/ (https://beerandbrewing.com/slow-beer-frankish-style/) Homebrewing for many is a lot closer to old school, small family brewery brewing (open fermenting, for example) rather than large modern industrial brewing. 

One of the more interesting things I saw at HomebrewCon on Friday was back-to-back panels in the same ballroom with Denny claiming that decoction is a myth and doesn't make a difference (and referencing his experiment) followed by Gordon Strong right after saying that decoction definitely makes a (very positive) difference. Looking now at Denny's results it sure looks to me that decoction is preferred!

I have learned a lot from the LODO folks and try to incorporate as much of it is is practical (closed transfers, for example), but I am cheap and a traditionalist and I enjoy decoction.  Maybe if I were to brew a Helles (which is what LODO seems to be really all about) I might try to go all in on LODO. But it is probably my least favorite lager style. Guess that's why in my upcoming German beercation I am spending 5 days in Franconia and half a day in Munich. Brew what makes you happy and in a way that makes you happy. But don't think you HAVE to brew LODO since all the great lager brewers are LODO, because they are not.

Decoction was preferred to single infusion.  But if you add nbo preference to infusion, it was more than preferred decoction.  People did not have a clear preference for decocted beer.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 05:40:55 PM
Anyone have suggestions for SMB ratio?!  I'm driving the struggle bus here trying to figure out how much of each to add to strike water. And should I add btb to the boil? To the fermenter? Ofta I've got a lot of learning to do.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/
Thanks... I've been there and scavanged what I can from it.  But the spreadsheet link is 404.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Nearly everything in the brewing world works better with metric.

ppm = mg/l

20ppm =20mg/l

so for every L of brewing water add 20mg of antioxidant.

So, by the math I have 34.45L of water total.  34.45 x 20 = 689

So if I use the recommended 45/45/10 method that means I add .689g NaMeta, .689g AA, and .0689g BTB?

I can't even measure units that small with my current scale... Does this seem right to you though?
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 03, 2019, 05:54:30 PM
The antioxidants I can't argue with, but I use BtB at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 6g/hL,  which is about 2g for you.  I use it late in the boil, a minute or two before Whirlfloc, at the same rate but calculated according to the post boil volume,  so a smaller addition (for me the additions are around 2g and 1.4g.)  HTH
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 03, 2019, 07:31:01 PM
The antioxidants I can't argue with, but I use BtB at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 6g/hL,  which is about 2g for you.  I use it late in the boil, a minute or two before Whirlfloc, at the same rate but calculated according to the post boil volume,  so a smaller addition (for me the additions are around 2g and 1.4g.)

^^^^
This.

Forget you ever heard about 45/45/10. It's a limiting factor for those with the component parts. It is actual a hindrance and many who were using the Antioxin SBT blend were having to increase BtB dose anyway when meta levels got lower and lower.

Step 1: Find Meta dose (0.689g)
Step 2: Duplicate that dose with AA (0.689g)
Step 3: Dose BtB per manufacturer
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 07:32:54 PM
The antioxidants I can't argue with, but I use BtB at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 6g/hL,  which is about 2g for you.  I use it late in the boil, a minute or two before Whirlfloc, at the same rate but calculated according to the post boil volume,  so a smaller addition (for me the additions are around 2g and 1.4g.)

^^^^
This.

Forget you ever heard about 45/45/10. It's a limiting factor for those with the component parts. It is actual a hindrance and many who were using the Antioxin SBT blend were having to increase BtB dose anyway when meta levels got lower and lower.

Step 1: Find Meta dose (0.689g)
Step 2: Duplicate that dose with AA (0.689g)
Step 3: Dose BtB per manufacturer
Thanks!  That's actually exactly what I did!  I'm at my second infusion and I'm afraid I didn't hit my beta test temp... I'm stuck at 130.  Super worried this won't work!

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 03, 2019, 07:42:34 PM
This is what I settled on for BtB

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190703/d4aba1add261b641cce6088bf4132588.jpg)


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 03, 2019, 08:40:48 PM
The antioxidants I can't argue with, but I use BtB at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 6g/hL,  which is about 2g for you.  I use it late in the boil, a minute or two before Whirlfloc, at the same rate but calculated according to the post boil volume,  so a smaller addition (for me the additions are around 2g and 1.4g.)

^^^^
This.

Forget you ever heard about 45/45/10. It's a limiting factor for those with the component parts. It is actual a hindrance and many who were using the Antioxin SBT blend were having to increase BtB dose anyway when meta levels got lower and lower.

Step 1: Find Meta dose (0.689g)
Step 2: Duplicate that dose with AA (0.689g)
Step 3: Dose BtB per manufacturer
Thanks!  That's actually exactly what I did!  I'm at my second infusion and I'm afraid I didn't hit my beta test temp... I'm stuck at 130.  Super worried this won't work!

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Infusion step mashing is more trouble than its worth. If you can get a stable β temp, just stay there.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 03, 2019, 08:43:46 PM
Sweet, thanks.  I'm at 147.8 rn.  I'm mostly there....  I tasted the wort and it is some of the best wort I've ever sampled....  So I might be a convert, but it's still too early to tell.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Bilsch on July 06, 2019, 04:31:32 AM
This has been the most civil LODO thread I've ever read.
What is the world coming to where people all get along like this? ;)
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2019, 11:32:14 AM


This has been the most civil LODO thread I've ever read.
What is the world coming to where people all get along like this? ;)

Well, nobody brought up glitter, so....
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2019, 12:33:03 PM
This has been the most civil LODO thread I've ever read.
What is the world coming to where people all get along like this? ;)

I don’t think LO will come up much anymore. At least not from us.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 06, 2019, 01:50:51 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 06, 2019, 03:01:44 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

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Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2019, 03:51:07 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sad part is that when the LO site is mothballed this fall, those frequent posters and old AHA diehards who left still won’t come back.

Guys like Hoosierbrew and the like.

At the end of the day it’s not about LOB. It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2019, 03:51:19 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've noticed more of them around again lately.   There's a wide world of homebrewers,  and this place ought to include them all, if we want to see it as the go to clearinghouse of information.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2019, 03:56:07 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sad part is that when the LO site is mothballed this fall, those frequent posters and old AHA diehards who left still won’t come back.

Guys like Hoosierbrew and the like.

At the end of the day it’s not about LOB. It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.
Mothballed?!  Will the posts be archived somewhere?  Or is it just the forum?  So much valuable information that can't be found elsewhere.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 06, 2019, 04:11:38 PM
It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.

And that mischaracterization is why there were issues.  Let's get back to talking about brewing.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 06, 2019, 04:19:32 PM
It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.

And that mischaracterization is why there were issues.  Let's get back to talking about brewing.
^ I second this! 

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 06, 2019, 04:20:16 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sad part is that when the LO site is mothballed this fall, those frequent posters and old AHA diehards who left still won’t come back.

Guys like Hoosierbrew and the like.

At the end of the day it’s not about LOB. It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.
Mothballed?!  Will the posts be archived somewhere?  Or is it just the forum?  So much valuable information that can't be found elsewhere.

Not sure.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 06, 2019, 04:28:15 PM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sad part is that when the LO site is mothballed this fall, those frequent posters and old AHA diehards who left still won’t come back.

Guys like Hoosierbrew and the like.

At the end of the day it’s not about LOB. It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.
Mothballed?!  Will the posts be archived somewhere?  Or is it just the forum?  So much valuable information that can't be found elsewhere.

Not sure.
Well I for one hope it lingers in an endless, zombie existence just like Kai's old site!
Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 06, 2019, 04:50:18 PM
I agree. Great info over there. Especially the library!  Wow!  It would be a shame to lose that as a resource. If the info will be lost otherwise, maybe the AHA can at least pick up the library.

I've noticed more of them around again lately.   There's a wide world of homebrewers,  and this place ought to include them all, if we want to see it as the go to clearinghouse of information.

Good to see them around. Hopefully we’ll see more.


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Bilsch on July 08, 2019, 02:30:32 AM
I didn't realize it was such a contentious topic.  I'm always looking for ways to improve my brewing and thought I'd give it a try if people have had success with it.  Now that I've tried it on my 3 tier system, I'm realizing I'd have been better off just using a BIAB in my kettle so I could direct heat and recirc.

Thanks to all who participated in this conversation!

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Not so long ago LODO was a dividing line for many on both sides of the argument. So much so that the LODO adherents moved to their own forum. Birds of a feather I guess. Most of those brewers used to frequent this site.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The sad part is that when the LO site is mothballed this fall, those frequent posters and old AHA diehards who left still won’t come back.

Guys like Hoosierbrew and the like.

At the end of the day it’s not about LOB. It’s about people not liking being told how to brew lager by an experienced lager brewer.

You never know.. it actually seems to be pretty congenial around here of late. Maybe this will be the space where two sides come together to form one.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 08, 2019, 03:33:26 AM
Let's hope so.

Funny thing.  When I first started regularly participating here, I got the idea it was at the tail end of a mass exodus of an earlier generation.   And that didn't seem to be particularly tied to LODO.   I do remember that almost any thread could start with some poor noob asking a decent question,  and within 5 posts it turned into 5 pages of two members going at each other on a personal level.  Another funny thing.  Those guys all vanished too. 

I stuck around because there was a great base community and a lot of potential for invaluable information exchange.  Where else.  It has been more valuable than I could have hoped.  Hope the old members who have something to offer and a constant openness to new ideas come back.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 08, 2019, 04:11:45 AM
It appears as though I've serendipitously stumbled onto a topic that needed to be redressed.  I only ever hoped to learn more about brewing, but here we are mending bridges (at least I hope).

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 11, 2019, 03:03:05 AM
...  Hope the old members who have something to offer and a constant openness to new ideas come back.

I do, too.


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 11, 2019, 04:29:42 AM


...  Hope the old members who have something to offer and a constant openness to new ideas come back.

I do, too.


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Very sorry to see that Bryan (The Beerery) has deleted his account.  He was a valuable resource.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 11, 2019, 10:22:34 AM


...  Hope the old members who have something to offer and a constant openness to new ideas come back.

I do, too.


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Very sorry to see that Bryan (The Beerery) has deleted his account.  He was a valuable resource.

His opinions were very polarizing but wavered very littered, i.e. he was opinionated because he makes absolutely fantastic lager beer of all persuasions and has a very particular way he likes to do it (HAS to do it is probably more accurate), which he feels (and in which very many others are beginning to feel as well) is the right way.

Right way, wrong way exchanges can get very charged, very quickly. Some people never figured out how to stand on firm ground and debate Bryan based solely on the technical aspects of what he was talking about. That got old for him after a while.

He's still out there if you need to get in contact with him.
Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 11, 2019, 11:29:38 AM
I believe there are absolute truths and there are personal convictions. Absolute truths are worth dividing over. Personal convictions are not. In brewing, there are very few absolute truths. Therefore, in brewing there is very little to divide over.

Edit: problems can arise when personal convictions are confused with absolute truth. Further problems arise when those convictions are applied to another person.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 12, 2019, 02:08:26 AM
Dear God I hope this thread was not the reason he deleted his account!  I would feel horrible if I did something to make him leave. 

He has always had very strong opinions on my posts, but I've valued his input, even though he comes off a tad brash.  It's great to see a guy who is truly passionate and methodical about brewing.  Really a big loss to our community!  I apologize if it were something I said to make him leave.  I was honestly just looking for the best information I could find on this particular subject.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 12, 2019, 02:15:10 AM
Oh, don't worry, definitely not you.  I'm surprised he was still here this long at all.  It's just unfortunate all around.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: dmtaylor on July 12, 2019, 02:35:52 AM
I don't like criticism, but I don't quit forums (well okay except for basically the NB forum)... But I also know I'm not that popular and typically don't get attacked as much either, so there's that, too.

I do wish all the best to Mr. R and eventually I do want to get over to his brewery (is it ever going to open?!) and taste some of his lagers.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: JT on July 13, 2019, 04:40:53 PM
Bryan has deleted his account before, hopefully he comes back after taking some time off for a bit.
Also looks like the LODO site will stick around and become a pay to play venture. I understand him not wanting to shell out money for the forum or site, but I also value free exchange of information.  Full access will be almost 3x the price of AHA membership.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 14, 2019, 01:33:56 PM
Bryan has deleted his account before, hopefully he comes back after taking some time off for a bit.
Also looks like the LODO site will stick around and become a pay to play venture. I understand him not wanting to shell out money for the forum or site, but I also value free exchange of information.  Full access will be almost 3x the price of AHA membership.

I think the basic tier gets you everything on the site plus the forum. Thats the status quo for $12 a year. Not too shabby.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Bilsch on July 15, 2019, 02:56:56 AM
It's a pretty awesome deal when you consider the quality of the information available there.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 15, 2019, 06:29:47 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: tommymorris on July 15, 2019, 07:12:40 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
We have low oxygen threads. Why do we need a low oxygen“board”? We don’t have separate fly, batch, and BIAB boards. We don’t have separate Picobrew, Grainfather, pot and cooler boards. As you can probably tell, I am for keeping the forum organization simple. We can all benefit from discussion even when the discussion is about a method we don’t employ.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 15, 2019, 07:15:36 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
We have low oxygen threads. Why do we need a low oxygen“board”? We don’t have separate fly, batch, and BIAB boards. We don’t have separate Picobrew, Grainfather, pot and cooler boards. As you can probably tell, I am for keeping the forum organization simple. We can all benefit from discussion even when the discussion is about a method we don’t employ.
I think because LoDO is so very different and actually contradicts some of the things we've learned or thought we've learned in homebrewing, it is worthy of its own subject line.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 15, 2019, 07:29:56 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
We have low oxygen threads. Why do we need a low oxygen“board”? We don’t have separate fly, batch, and BIAB boards. We don’t have separate Picobrew, Grainfather, pot and cooler boards. As you can probably tell, I am for keeping the forum organization simple. We can all benefit from discussion even when the discussion is about a method we don’t employ.

I just thought it would in fact be simpler.  To have a place where those who want to go into the weeds on techniques many brewers won't find relevant won't be cluttering other threads with digressions.  Maybe you're right, maybe integrating these topics into the general boards is better.  Just filing under all grain might be the thing to do.  Or kegging, fermentation, whatever.  We do however have boards for all grain, extract, equipment and software... not to mention other fermentables.  I thought maybe those were more analogous.   I'll go with what the people want.  If anyone else feels it would be more appropriate to have a board for specific LODO topics, I support that.  If not, I accept that.  Maybe unnecessary now that someone bringing up low oxygen issues in a thread is less likely to be seen as disruptive.  That's a very good sign. 

And you're absolutely right, we all benefit from exposure to ideas were not really looking for.  Reminds me that's what hooked me here in the  first place.  (And it was exposure to these ideas in the forum as currently organized that got me to adopt low oxygen brewing techniques, come to think of it...)
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 15, 2019, 08:32:43 PM
It reminds me of when I suggested a category for sour and wild ales - unnecessary I was told at the time and it probably was true.  Still, I would frequent the low oxygen category if it developed here. 

I keep up from time to time over at Low Oxygen Brewing forum.  I had adopted the approach whole hog back in 2017, but I have not done all of my styles as LODO - typically just the really light styles that seem to be the most impacted by oxygen staling effects.  Even those I occasionally skip the O2 scavenging sometimes in the interests of time.  My beers turn out ok with that approach, but I earnestly try to get them consumed most quickly, if I haven't done the full low O2 process.

However, I always use Brewtan B in both the mash and boil and then transfer after fermentation under CO2 purged process or spund to keg if I catch the timing right.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 15, 2019, 08:57:29 PM
Brewtopalonian,

Maybe the fact that newer, better information contradicts old habits is exactly why it should not be segregated into its own sub forum.  Otherwise the function of the whole forum as a place to exchange information and improve our brewing is compromised.

Ynotbrusum,

I feel LODO methods are imperative (for me, that is) for my lagers, what I primarily enjoy and brew.  For some styles it initially feels inappropriate,  like where it's anachronistic:   a low oxygen 19th century Burton Ale would be a very different beer from the original.  But it might be a beer I like better,  who knows?  Same with a pre-prohibition style lager maybe.  Will I try the methods on such beers?  Time will tell.   It's another tool in the box, and we're all just learning what an impact it can have, and where it may be profitably applied.

More I think about it, these ideas probably belong in the general discussion.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 15, 2019, 09:01:41 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
We have low oxygen threads. Why do we need a low oxygen“board”? We don’t have separate fly, batch, and BIAB boards. We don’t have separate Picobrew, Grainfather, pot and cooler boards. As you can probably tell, I am for keeping the forum organization simple. We can all benefit from discussion even when the discussion is about a method we don’t employ.

THIS
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 15, 2019, 09:03:51 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
We have low oxygen threads. Why do we need a low oxygen“board”? We don’t have separate fly, batch, and BIAB boards. We don’t have separate Picobrew, Grainfather, pot and cooler boards. As you can probably tell, I am for keeping the forum organization simple. We can all benefit from discussion even when the discussion is about a method we don’t employ.
I think because LoDO is so very different and actually contradicts some of the things we've learned or thought we've learned in homebrewing, it is worthy of its own subject line.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

But lots of things here are different and don't need or get their own board.  Do we need one for SNS starters?  They re definitely out of the conventional wisdom.   Batch sparging used to be, and to a degree BIAB still is.  I just don't see why LODO can't be part of the existing structure.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 15, 2019, 09:19:20 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.   

Even if I am ever successful,  I will still help with any lobbying efforts to get a low oxygen board on here, which is what really needed to happen long ago.  Without one, this is not a complete and inclusive homebrewers' resource.   Otherwise I like it here and feel at home.
We have low oxygen threads. Why do we need a low oxygen“board”? We don’t have separate fly, batch, and BIAB boards. We don’t have separate Picobrew, Grainfather, pot and cooler boards. As you can probably tell, I am for keeping the forum organization simple. We can all benefit from discussion even when the discussion is about a method we don’t employ.
I think because LoDO is so very different and actually contradicts some of the things we've learned or thought we've learned in homebrewing, it is worthy of its own subject line.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

But lots of things here are different and don't need or get their own board.  Do we need one for SNS starters?  They re definitely out of the conventional wisdom.   Batch sparging used to be, and to a degree BIAB still is.  I just don't see why LODO can't be part of the existing structure.
Yeah, I really agree.  I think a couple of days ago when it was mentioned here that LOB was being mothballed it seemed like maybe their amassed resources might be given a home here.  Apparently that ship has sailed.   We can do a lot more good for the hobby by encouraging more cross pollination of ideas.

(Sorry to let my view evolve so much live in real time on this thread.  Oh wait, that's the beauty of the way things work here!)
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: ynotbrusum on July 15, 2019, 09:57:01 PM
I'm cool with the current approach for discussion.  I pretty much try to keep up with threads on a semi-regular basis, so I doubt that I would miss out on information that comes up by way of a new thread, anyway....

Cheers to this forum sticking around!
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 15, 2019, 10:02:10 PM
I certainly see the argument for simply incorporating it into our general/allgrain boards.  I've extensively read for understanding everything I could find on the low oxygen brewing website.i have since performed two LoDo brews, a Munich Dunkel and a Czech Premium Pils. I can honestly say, I've never had such pristinely clear wort and a thick sludge like cold break.  I'm excited to sample the results and see if it is truly something for me, but for now I will remain open minded and optimistic. Thanks for everyone's input and I am glad to be the catalyst for bringing this topic back into the fray.

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Title: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: BrewBama on July 16, 2019, 12:28:45 AM
...  I think a couple of days ago when it was mentioned here that LOB was being mothballed it seemed like maybe their amassed resources might be given a home here.  Apparently that ship has sailed.   We can do a lot more good for the hobby by encouraging more cross pollination of ideas.

...

I agree. I only introduced the idea of incorporating the Low Oxygen library resource here as a home in fear the information would be lost. ...which I believe would be a loss to the entire homebrewing community.  The idea was (is) all ideas can be shared here without discrimination. (Regardless of where within the structure the information is discussed)


Cheers to this forum sticking around!

Cheers to that!


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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 16, 2019, 12:37:20 AM


The idea was (is) all ideas can be shared here without discrimination.

Even during its most tumultuous times, this has still been the great strength of this forum.

Cheers indeed!
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Big Monk on July 16, 2019, 01:27:49 AM
Hopefully the way forward is a peek into the past. Mainly, there is an elephant in the room that has always parked its big ass right on top of some people who would rather have it somewhere else. We have inadvertently (yet passionately) engaged in hyperbole from time to time with the following statement:

”This means all beer! Your ales and lagers will benefit equally from these methods.

and

”All beers benefit from the Low Oxygen methods.”

When I say hyperbole here, I do not mean the meaning of the word having to do with exaggeration or embellishment, but rather a magnification or amplification of a finer point. We have always been passionate about its application and we have always felt that anyone willing to lavish the extra effort onto their most loved recipes would be rewarded with the final results.

With that said, I think we can definitely point towards beers that will most certainly see the greatest impacts: lagers and hop forward ales.

Does that mean that my Trappist inspired ales don’t benefit? Absolutely not, but something as yeast forward as a 3787 fermented ale may not be the most startling representation of the methods. Also, beers made with tons of auxiliary flavors or sour beers are not good candidates.

So have we steered people wrong? I don’t think so. Are there beers where the method may not yield striking results? Of course, but I think they are outliers. Anyone making simple, base malt heavy beers, beers with supplementary amounts of light to medium crystal malts, or hop forward beers will be rewarded with the benefits of full Oxygen exclusion.

This is of course applies within reason.

Were/Are we passionate enough about the methods to engagein sensible hyperbole to get the point across? A resounding yes. Do I think that’s a bad thing? Or that we have willfully mislead anyone? Absolutely not. I think we have found many sympathetic brewers who were looking for that final piece of the puzzle to really make their simpler recipe style pop.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Bilsch on July 16, 2019, 04:00:39 AM
I think most low oxygen brewers from past experience have learned just to keep quiet round these parts.. but now it will be most interesting to see how this new glasnost works. The test will likely be when a newbie comes in and asks how to brew something like Bud or maybe why he can't make beers that taste like what he had in Germany.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 16, 2019, 11:38:24 AM
"Radical" new ideas slowly become mainstream.   We've seen, for example, increased interest in and adoption of cold side practices like proper keg purging and closed transfer as the popularity of hoppy IPAs has led brewers to seek ways of keeping these beers better.  The results must speak for themselves and the word will get out.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: stpug on July 16, 2019, 04:42:44 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.

Robert, I just tested registration for the forum at low oxygen brewing dot com and all seems well.  We continue to have new registration happening daily as well, so it would seem that things are (at least) mostly working.  Is this the site you're having difficulty registering for or another?
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Robert on July 16, 2019, 05:52:30 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.

Robert, I just tested registration for the forum at low oxygen brewing dot com and all seems well.  We continue to have new registration happening daily as well, so it would seem that things are (at least) mostly working.  Is this the site you're having difficulty registering for or another?

Yes, LOB.  I'll try again when I get a chance.  If I'm having trouble and get an error message again using the contact feature, is there someone I can email directly?
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 16, 2019, 07:23:15 PM
I've tried multiple times to register over there.  Just did again.  Whenever I try to submit the registration I get a "form invalid" message.  When I use the "contact" feature to try to contact Admin about the problem, it's also "form invalid."  Either they've already shut down their existing system, or they really don't want any new, potential paying, members.

Robert, I just tested registration for the forum at low oxygen brewing dot com and all seems well.  We continue to have new registration happening daily as well, so it would seem that things are (at least) mostly working.  Is this the site you're having difficulty registering for or another?
When I attempt to register for the forum it keeps telling me my confirmation code is incorrect.  I've attempted at least a dozen times.

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Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: stpug on July 18, 2019, 02:25:18 PM
As an admin of the site, it's good to know that some folks are having troubles with the registration form not functioning correctly. Will you both try registering using an Incognito Window (Chrome) or Private Window (Firefox) - with ad-blockers deactivated - just to see if registration goes through.  If it does, then you should be able to use those credentials to log in using your regular browser panes after that.  As a final resort, I could set up an account for each of you, pass along the credentials, and then you log in and change the password to whatever you want along with account details/etc.  Keep me posted.
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: Brewtopalonian on July 18, 2019, 07:46:48 PM
As an admin of the site, it's good to know that some folks are having troubles with the registration form not functioning correctly. Will you both try registering using an Incognito Window (Chrome) or Private Window (Firefox) - with ad-blockers deactivated - just to see if registration goes through.  If it does, then you should be able to use those credentials to log in using your regular browser panes after that.  As a final resort, I could set up an account for each of you, pass along the credentials, and then you log in and change the password to whatever you want along with account details/etc.  Keep me posted.

Thank you!  I was able to create an account now!  Much appreciated!
Title: Re: LODO and Decoction Mashing
Post by: denny on July 19, 2019, 03:52:50 PM
Tried again, failed again.  New routine it seems, get up, get coffee, try to register, get rejected.  Stpug, any further suggestion?  Admin there not responding.

THIS may be better done by PM