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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: charlie on July 06, 2019, 07:54:29 PM

Title: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: charlie on July 06, 2019, 07:54:29 PM
I have brewed 14 batches of Rye Pale Ale since January 2018. Batch 1 was 15% rye, and that was followed by several batches at 20%. Batches 8 through 13 saw it rise from 25% to 30%, and batch 14 (the most recent) at 35%. I have thoroughly enjoyed the beer, and though I'm not using rice hulls I have never had a hint of a stuck sparge (but I suspect that 35% is pushing it with both hands and both feet ;-).

I understand that rye is a subtle flavor, and that I should avoid anything that will hide it, but I'm wondering if there's something I can do to make this beer shine even brighter. Suggestions are welcome.

TIA,
Charlie
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on July 06, 2019, 08:23:38 PM
Are you using rye malt or flaked rye?
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: charlie on July 06, 2019, 08:59:12 PM
Are you using rye malt or flaked rye?

Rye malt, no flakes. The LHBS gets rye malt both from Briess and a company called Proximity.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: dmtaylor on July 06, 2019, 09:14:38 PM
I can only guess as to your hopping regimen, but I'll assume my next advice would be to cut your late hops down in half or just 33% as much, to make the rye flavor really shine through.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Steve Ruch on July 06, 2019, 11:07:18 PM
I made a rye porter a few years ago and added caraway seeds to steep.
I gotta brew that again.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on July 06, 2019, 11:31:00 PM
   I live in the land of Rye and use more of it than many commercial brewers, even at 100% rye [which I have done a few times] you'll probably never get a beer that strongly exhibits the flavors that are attributed to rye - at least by the maltsters, i.e. fruity & nutty. What you definitely will get, and eventually come to start  noticing is beer that has a fundamentally different mouthfeel than rye-less beers. My perception is that the more solid foundation of a high percentage rye beer changes the flavor contributions of all the ingredients [ya, I know, that sounds like a load of psycho-babble horse nonsense], maybe like the difference between using water colors on a canvas versus on a brick wall.
   As for percentages, I've done probably 70 or so brews using various amounts of rye, from my experience anything over 30% or so you're risking a seriously stuck mash without rice hulls. That's not a hard and fast rule, I've gotten away with a 60% rye beer and no hulls, and had train wrecks with 40% rye beers with plenty of hulls. I've done a few stepped mashes with attempted glucosidase rests with the idea being to improve lautering porosity, but have yet to hit the intended temp range for the rest [all the infusion calculators I've found are totally FU].
   FWIW, the All Rye beers are really weird to drink, they have the viscosity of about 20 weight motor oil and the bubbles rise to the surface in extra slow motion. Surprisingly little in the way of unique flavors though.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: charlie on July 07, 2019, 01:17:46 AM
I made a rye porter a few years ago and added caraway seeds to steep.
I gotta brew that again.

That sounds like a good match! I'm going to look into it.

Charlie
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: goose on July 07, 2019, 11:42:49 AM
I have found that adding more rye to a beer adds a peppery note to the beer.  Although that is not a bad thing, it can get a bit overpowering if you use too much.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: dmtaylor on July 07, 2019, 02:05:19 PM
  FWIW, the All Rye beers are really weird to drink, they have the viscosity of about 20 weight motor oil and the bubbles rise to the surface in extra slow motion. Surprisingly little in the way of unique flavors though.

THIS.  NOT spicy.  NOT caraway.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on July 07, 2019, 03:06:14 PM
  FWIW, the All Rye beers are really weird to drink, they have the viscosity of about 20 weight motor oil and the bubbles rise to the surface in extra slow motion. Surprisingly little in the way of unique flavors though.

THIS.  NOT spicy.  NOT caraway.

Of course not caraway...that's a totally different thing. But I definitely get spicy.  I have gone as high as 60% rye.  2ho problem lautering, but I didn't really care for the beer.  Also, I do a huge amout of late hops in my rye IPA and it doesn't cover up the rye.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: rodwha on August 01, 2019, 04:37:56 PM
I had an excellent rye witbeir from a brew pub which, of course, made me want to brew one, and is the reason I tried my first partial mash. I’ve never been able to get that rye taste using up to 33% rye malt. I’ve been thinking of trying caraway seeds myself.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Steve Ruch on August 01, 2019, 04:42:14 PM
 I used caraway to mimic the taste of dark rye bread.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on August 01, 2019, 08:02:03 PM
  FWIW, the All Rye beers are really weird to drink, they have the viscosity of about 20 weight motor oil and the bubbles rise to the surface in extra slow motion. Surprisingly little in the way of unique flavors though.

THIS.  NOT spicy.  NOT caraway.

Of course not caraway...that's a totally different thing. But I definitely get spicy.  I have gone as high as 60% rye.  2ho problem lautering, but I didn't really care for the beer.  Also, I do a huge amout of late hops in my rye IPA and it doesn't cover up the rye.

what's considered a huge amount of late hops?
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on August 01, 2019, 08:41:11 PM
  FWIW, the All Rye beers are really weird to drink, they have the viscosity of about 20 weight motor oil and the bubbles rise to the surface in extra slow motion. Surprisingly little in the way of unique flavors though.

THIS.  NOT spicy.  NOT caraway.

Of course not caraway...that's a totally different thing. But I definitely get spicy.  I have gone as high as 60% rye.  2ho problem lautering, but I didn't really care for the beer.  Also, I do a huge amout of late hops in my rye IPA and it doesn't cover up the rye.

what's considered a huge amount of late hops?

For me, 2-3 oz. dry hops
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on August 01, 2019, 09:53:06 PM
  FWIW, the All Rye beers are really weird to drink, they have the viscosity of about 20 weight motor oil and the bubbles rise to the surface in extra slow motion. Surprisingly little in the way of unique flavors though.

THIS.  NOT spicy.  NOT caraway.

Of course not caraway...that's a totally different thing. But I definitely get spicy.  I have gone as high as 60% rye.  2ho problem lautering, but I didn't really care for the beer.  Also, I do a huge amout of late hops in my rye IPA and it doesn't cover up the rye.

what's considered a huge amount of late hops?

For me, 2-3 oz. dry hops

Ok. Just making sure. Thanks
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on August 02, 2019, 04:33:32 PM
I used caraway to mimic the taste of dark rye bread.

   Pumpernickel beer? I've never managed to make a rye beer that tastes like rye bread, but I've never really tried. Interesting idea though - I dearly love pumpernickel bread, I doubt that adding caraway is the secret though. My experience with caraway in beer is a lot of extra bitterness but very little of the aromatic aspect of those wondrous little seeds.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Robert on August 02, 2019, 04:54:51 PM
As a big fan and and baker of real European style rye breads, I just have to get this off my chest.  Caraway has no place whatsoever in rye bread.  In Sauerkraut, in cheese, in lots of stuff.  Not rye bread.  (The American breads containing it are virtually devoid of rye.)  Rye itself, when fermented, whether by Sauerteig (sourdough) or by beer yeast, has a very distinctive, malty-fruity flavor.  Maybe you have made beer that tastes like rye bread, but have never had the pleasure of experiencing the real taste of rye bread. There, I feel better now.  Carry on.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: goose on August 03, 2019, 12:58:17 PM
As a big fan and and baker of real European style rye breads, I just have to get this off my chest.  Caraway has no place whatsoever in rye bread.  In Sauerkraut, in cheese, in lots of stuff.  Not rye bread.  (The American breads containing it are virtually devoid of rye.)  Rye itself, when fermented, whether by Sauerteig (sourdough) or by beer yeast, has a very distinctive, malty-fruity flavor.  Maybe you have made beer that tastes like rye bread, but have never had the pleasure of experiencing the real taste of rye bread. There, I feel better now.  Carry on.

Not disputing your claim, Rob, as you are way more knowledgeable about bread making than I am.  However, I made a pumpernickel porter last year and researched a lot of recipes for the bread before I brewed it. I got the idea for the beer from the Tamoka Brewery in Port Orange, FL who made a good one.  Yes, pumpernickel is a dark rye bread but every recipe I looked at had caraway seed in it.  I brewed my rye porter with more rye than I normally use and added caraway seed to it.  It came out pretty good the first time and I entered it in a competition in Cleveland where it was well received.  One of the judges said it needed more caraway which I am a bit reluctant to do since the spice can get a bit overpowering quickly.

But caraway in an authentic rye bread, I agree that it should not be there although I have had some from bakeries that put it in there.  But they are not baking to the European style.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on August 03, 2019, 04:48:52 PM
   Thanks for the enlightenment Rob, but I'm gonna continue to put caraway in my rye bread, cuz I like it that way and cuz I'm a heathen and really don't give a flip if what I consume conforms to any standard other than what tastes good to me ;). Interestingly, I've found that just about any treber flour that contains dark grains will give bread a definite rye flavor, caraway or no caraway.
   I am curious how it came to be that rye bread in this country almost always contains caraway, are we Americans just never content to leave stuff as we found it?
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Robert on August 03, 2019, 05:04:38 PM


   Thanks for the enlightenment Rob, but I'm gonna continue to put caraway in my rye bread, cuz I like it that way and cuz I'm a heathen and really don't give a flip if what I consume conforms to any standard other than what tastes good to me ;). Interestingly, I've found that just about any treber flour that contains dark grains will give bread a definite rye flavor, caraway or no caraway.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant or anything.   I just so often see the comment, "I had a rye beer and couldn't taste rye," or "it didn't add the flavor I heard it would."  Most, unlike you obviously, have never tasted rye, though.  In American commercial rye breads, I can't detect any rye flavor.  They, even the dark ones (basically white bread and caramel color,) normally contain only enough rye flour to make it over the "and less than 2% of" line on the ingredient list so they can legally call it rye bread, and all the characteristic flavor comes from caraway or other ingredients.

So yeah, put whatever you want in your beer.  Or bread.  That's why we do it ourselves.  Just saying,  rye has a very unique flavor but it can be masked by the spice.  And rye itself is delicious  and worth discovering. 

And just to be fair I should probably bake a loaf of caraway-laden deli-style rye bread again soon.  Even that's way better homemade than store bought.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on August 03, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
Rob, have you tried artisinal rye breads?  We have some great ones around here...without caraway.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Robert on August 03, 2019, 05:30:42 PM
Rob, have you tried artisinal rye breads?  We have some great ones around here...without caraway.
Yeah, there is one really good German bakery locally here (shout out to Reinecker's.)  They tend to the more intensely sour and dense Northwest German style, while I like a little milder touch.  (And they make one or two breads they put ground caraway in just to make everybody happy.)  But in the summer when I don't want to bake, they are a godsend!  I wish more people would try the good stuff.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on August 04, 2019, 04:35:32 PM


   Thanks for the enlightenment Rob, but I'm gonna continue to put caraway in my rye bread, cuz I like it that way and cuz I'm a heathen and really don't give a flip if what I consume conforms to any standard other than what tastes good to me ;). Interestingly, I've found that just about any treber flour that contains dark grains will give bread a definite rye flavor, caraway or no caraway.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant or anything.   I just so often see the comment, "I had a rye beer and couldn't taste rye," or "it didn't add the flavor I heard it would."  Most, unlike you obviously, have never tasted rye, though.  In American commercial rye breads, I can't detect any rye flavor.  They, even the dark ones (basically white bread and caramel color,) normally contain only enough rye flour to make it over the "and less than 2% of" line on the ingredient list so they can legally call it rye bread, and all the characteristic flavor comes from caraway or other ingredients.

So yeah, put whatever you want in your beer.  Or bread.  That's why we do it ourselves.  Just saying,  rye has a very unique flavor but it can be masked by the spice.  And rye itself is delicious  and worth discovering. 

And just to be fair I should probably bake a loaf of caraway-laden deli-style rye bread again soon.  Even that's way better homemade than store bought.

   Was that a rant ;)? To me rye, whether in beer or bread has a fairly subtle flavor, in bread it's easily overwhelmed by caraway or molasses, in beer it's hard for me to taste it unless it's at least 30% of the grain bill. What I do tend to notice even with lower percentages is the different texture/mouthfeel that rye brings to beer, I love it!
   A sour German bread? Sounds tasty, just don't ask me to drink one of them nasty sour beers with it.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 06, 2019, 10:04:43 PM
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, thought I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: BrewBama on September 06, 2019, 10:18:36 PM
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, though I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.

Welcome. That’s a good looking recipe. I like the late Citra/Galaxy additions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: charlie on September 07, 2019, 12:36:37 AM
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, though I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.

6.25% rye malt + 6.25% caramel rye? I guess that's 12.5% rye total, but that's not a whole lot of rye!

What is caramel rye?

Charlie
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Robert on September 07, 2019, 12:50:35 AM




What is caramel rye?

Charlie

Briess makes this, a 60L crystal (they call all theirs caramel though they are really drum roasted crystal malts) made from rye.  They also have CaraCrystal Wheat at 55L.  I've also seen caramel rye and wheat listed by Weyermann,  and probably others are doing this.  I've wondered if any of them contribute distinctive characters or if, in a fully saccharified, glassy, crystal malt, sugar is sugar.  But it must be worth it because it's got to be a real pain to make a crystal malt from a naked grain.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 07, 2019, 08:31:15 AM
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Recipes/beer/display/rye-rye_imperial_ipa

This recipe is on my brew cue, though I'd share.
First post, need time to adapt to this site.

6.25% rye malt + 6.25% caramel rye? I guess that's 12.5% rye total, but that's not a whole lot of rye!

What is caramel rye?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Products/Caramel.htm

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CaramelRye.pdf

Notes from site: Use with Briess Rye Malt or Briess Rye Flakes for more rye flavor, and to complement the smooth and subtle yet complex flavor of Briess Caramel Rye Malt.  Flavor, Roasting of this grain develops touches of caramel and bread crust flavors that complement the spicy characteristic of rye. The result is a uniquely smooth and subtle yet complex rye malt with slight sweetness.


Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 07, 2019, 01:55:28 PM




What is caramel rye?

Charlie

Briess makes this, a 60L crystal (they call all theirs caramel though they are really drum roasted crystal malts) made from rye.  They also have CaraCrystal Wheat at 55L.  I've also seen caramel rye and wheat listed by Weyermann,  and probably others are doing this.  I've wondered if any of them contribute distinctive characters or if, in a fully saccharified, glassy, crystal malt, sugar is sugar.  But it must be worth it because it's got to be a real pain to make a crystal malt from a naked grain.

Over the years I've used a lot of rye in a lot of different forms.  I found the caramel rye to be interesting, but not have a lot of rye character.   In addition, IMO the small amount of rye in that recipe won't be noticeable.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 08, 2019, 06:56:24 AM
"In addition, IMO the small amount of rye in that recipe won't be noticeable. "

Agreed:

"SUGGESTED USAGE LEVELS"

1-5% Adds touches of depth to lighter-flavor beers like Pilsner, Oktoberfest and Bock.

5-10% Adds complexity to malt-forward beers.

10-20% Adds an intriguing softness and slight rye-like character. Use in all rye-style beers for toast flavor and color as well as in Scottish Ales, Doppelbock, Dunkels, Stouts, Porters and other medium to dark ales and lagers
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: dmtaylor on September 08, 2019, 01:38:22 PM
@Fire Rooster, I fixed this for you:

"SUGGESTED USAGE LEVELS"

1-5% Adds nothing

5-10% Adds a little better head retention

10-20% Adds a little body and head retention

20-30% Adds more body and head retention

30-40% Begins to add a little earthy and bready flavor that is different from other malts, along with the creamiest body and head you've ever seen

50%+ More earth & bread & body & head... and more may or may not necessarily be better.

Notice I don't use the word "spicy".  Chew on some raw, and you'll see why.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 08, 2019, 02:48:33 PM
Dave, I've concluded that you're "Rye Blind"   ;D
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: dmtaylor on September 08, 2019, 03:18:20 PM
Dave, I've concluded that you're "Rye Blind"   ;D

I know you have.  Yet consider the possibility that you might be the only one to have concluded that, and what that might mean.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 08, 2019, 03:39:25 PM
Dave, I've concluded that you're "Rye Blind"   ;D

I know you have.  Yet consider the possibility that you might be the only one to have concluded that, and what that might mean.

I have considered it, and the consensus disagrees with you.  Since you started posting your perceptions I've made it a point to talk to people about rye malt the last few years.   I have yet to find anyone who feels as you do.  Which doesn't make you wrong, just unsupported.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on September 08, 2019, 05:29:46 PM
   I suppose we're all "blind" to something.
   I'd imagine I use as much rye as just about anyone and agree to a small degree with Dave at least as far as a discernable Rye flavor is concerned. Even at 50% and higher Rye's flavor is pretty subtle, as I said earlier though the contribution to mouthfeel is very significant at levels as low as 20%. One other thing I've noticed about Rye is the unfermented wort has a very noticeable sliminess and almost motor oil like viscosity that increases as the rye percentage increases. Hydrometers, measuring cups, spoons all become very slippery when they've been in rye wort, and the wort doesn't wash off nearly as easily as non rye wort.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 08, 2019, 05:56:25 PM
  I suppose we're all "blind" to something.
   I'd imagine I use as much rye as just about anyone and agree to a small degree with Dave at least as far as a discernable Rye flavor is concerned. Even at 50% and higher Rye's flavor is pretty subtle, as I said earlier though the contribution to mouthfeel is very significant at levels as low as 20%. One other thing I've noticed about Rye is the unfermented wort has a very noticeable sliminess and almost motor oil like viscosity that increases as the rye percentage increases. Hydrometers, measuring cups, spoons all become very slippery when they've been in rye wort, and the wort doesn't wash off nearly as easily as non rye wort.

Absolutely.  And I think it depends on whose rye malt you're using.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Steve Ruch on September 08, 2019, 10:51:30 PM
  I suppose we're all "blind" to something.
   I'd imagine I use as much rye as just about anyone and agree to a small degree with Dave at least as far as a discernable Rye flavor is concerned. Even at 50% and higher Rye's flavor is pretty subtle, as I said earlier though the contribution to mouthfeel is very significant at levels as low as 20%. One other thing I've noticed about Rye is the unfermented wort has a very noticeable sliminess and almost motor oil like viscosity that increases as the rye percentage increases. Hydrometers, measuring cups, spoons all become very slippery when they've been in rye wort, and the wort doesn't wash off nearly as easily as non rye wort.

Absolutely.  And I think it depends on whose rye malt you're using.
Whose do you prefer?
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on September 08, 2019, 11:06:21 PM
   I've used Briess, Avanguard & Viking interchangeably in the same recipes and haven't noticed any difference.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: riceral on September 08, 2019, 11:25:28 PM
  I suppose we're all "blind" to something.
   I'd imagine I use as much rye as just about anyone and agree to a small degree with Dave at least as far as a discernable Rye flavor is concerned. Even at 50% and higher Rye's flavor is pretty subtle, as I said earlier though the contribution to mouthfeel is very significant at levels as low as 20%. One other thing I've noticed about Rye is the unfermented wort has a very noticeable sliminess and almost motor oil like viscosity that increases as the rye percentage increases. Hydrometers, measuring cups, spoons all become very slippery when they've been in rye wort, and the wort doesn't wash off nearly as easily as non rye wort.


Absolutely.  And I think it depends on whose rye malt you're using.

Whose do you prefer?

I have used Mecca Grade Rimrock rye and it came through with a nice flavor. Not really spicy but hearty, rich in a good way. (I have to get better with my descriptors!) Enjoyed that malt.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 09, 2019, 02:13:45 PM
  I suppose we're all "blind" to something.
   I'd imagine I use as much rye as just about anyone and agree to a small degree with Dave at least as far as a discernable Rye flavor is concerned. Even at 50% and higher Rye's flavor is pretty subtle, as I said earlier though the contribution to mouthfeel is very significant at levels as low as 20%. One other thing I've noticed about Rye is the unfermented wort has a very noticeable sliminess and almost motor oil like viscosity that increases as the rye percentage increases. Hydrometers, measuring cups, spoons all become very slippery when they've been in rye wort, and the wort doesn't wash off nearly as easily as non rye wort.

Absolutely.  And I think it depends on whose rye malt you're using.
Whose do you prefer?

Mecca Grade is by far my fave.  After that, Briess.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 10, 2019, 08:39:31 AM
 
    Never used Rye before.  Based on dialog here, 4 gallon batch will be 6 lb 2-row & 2 lb
Mecca Grade Rimrock Rye.  This will be my 17th All Grain batch.  Use to brew with cans
of syrup, and bags of powder, I think it's called extract brewing.

Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on September 10, 2019, 03:46:56 PM
   I use a lot of Briess grains and like them, but the last bag of Briess rye malt had a bunch of what looked like wheat grains in it, probably much less than 1% but looking in the bag there were lots of white dots on the grayish brown rye background. That being said, it brewed and tasted the same as any other rye I've used. I meant to send a photo to Briess to see what's up but never got around to it and now the empty bag is gone so I don't have a lot #. Not a big deal but I was curious.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: charlie on September 14, 2019, 01:17:17 AM
Notice I don't use the word "spicy".  Chew on some raw, and you'll see why.

I didn't coin the word spicy (or peppery) to describe rye flavor. I used the words that others use when describing rye flavor.

Frankly, I don't care what you call it. I like it, and I intend to keep rye brews in rotation.

Charlie
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 14, 2019, 07:20:55 AM
I have brewed 14 batches of Rye Pale Ale since January 2018. Batch 1 was 15% rye, and that was followed by several batches at 20%. Batches 8 through 13 saw it rise from 25% to 30%, and batch 14 (the most recent) at 35%. I have thoroughly enjoyed the beer, and though I'm not using rice hulls I have never had a hint of a stuck sparge (but I suspect that 35% is pushing it with both hands and both feet ;-).

I understand that rye is a subtle flavor, and that I should avoid anything that will hide it, but I'm wondering if there's something I can do to make this beer shine even brighter. Suggestions are welcome. https://www.morebeer.com/articles/brewwithrye

TIA,
Charlie



https://www.morebeer.com/articles/brewwithrye
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: ynotbrusum on September 14, 2019, 11:04:03 AM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 14, 2019, 11:56:05 AM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

Confirms what I was thinking of doing, often add small amounts of crystal to most batches.
Don't like carapils (dextrin), and use a little wheat and/or crystal instead.
Now I'm going to add it to this one as well, probably 40.

Tentative plan for a 4 gallon batch is: 5 lb 2-Row, 2lb Rye, 1 lb Crystal 40.
All recipes are kept in 1 lb increments.  Keeping Rye low to see if I like it,
and what it does for the beer.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 14, 2019, 02:44:35 PM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

I almost always use crystal in any APA/AIPA and several other styles.  Don't really understand why it fell out of favor, but it seems to be trendy to not use it.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 14, 2019, 02:47:08 PM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

Confirms what I was thinking of doing, often add small amounts of crystal to most batches.
Don't like carapils (dextrin), and use a little wheat and/or crystal instead.
Now I'm going to add it to this one as well, probably 40.

Tentative plan for a 4 gallon batch is: 5 lb 2-Row, 2lb Rye, 1 lb Crystal 40.
All recipes are kept in 1 lb increments.  Keeping Rye low to see if I like it,
and what it does for the beer.

FYI, my Rye IPA recipe, which is not only popular at my house but also with thousands of homebrewers nd commercial breweries round the world,  used both 1.25 lb. of C60 and .5 lb. of carapils.  It can work.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Steve Ruch on September 14, 2019, 04:58:44 PM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

Confirms what I was thinking of doing, often add small amounts of crystal to most batches.
Don't like carapils (dextrin), and use a little wheat and/or crystal instead.
Now I'm going to add it to this one as well, probably 40.

Tentative plan for a 4 gallon batch is: 5 lb 2-Row, 2lb Rye, 1 lb Crystal 40.
All recipes are kept in 1 lb increments.  Keeping Rye low to see if I like it,
and what it does for the beer.

FYI, my Rye IPA recipe, which is not only popular at my house but also with thousands of homebrewers nd commercial breweries round the world,  used both 1.25 lb. of C60 and .5 lb. of carapils.  It can work.
I recently brewed a batch of Wry Smile with rye extract that has crystal 60 in it and I steeped some also. It turned out pretty good.
Title: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: BrewBama on September 15, 2019, 12:02:48 PM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

Confirms what I was thinking of doing, often add small amounts of crystal to most batches.
Don't like carapils (dextrin), and use a little wheat and/or crystal instead.
Now I'm going to add it to this one as well, probably 40.

Tentative plan for a 4 gallon batch is: 5 lb 2-Row, 2lb Rye, 1 lb Crystal 40.
All recipes are kept in 1 lb increments.  Keeping Rye low to see if I like it,
and what it does for the beer.

FYI, my Rye IPA recipe, which is not only popular at my house but also with thousands of homebrewers nd commercial breweries round the world,  used both 1.25 lb. of C60 and .5 lb. of carapils.  It can work.

I understand Stone used over 13% crystal in their Pale Ale and Pete’s Wicked Ale used over 15% so it definitely can work. Seems like too much to me but that ain’t sayin much.


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Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Visor on September 16, 2019, 01:47:20 PM
   Just cracked the 1st bottle of the most recent batch of Wyo common last night, absolutely LOVE that beer, definitely my favorite. It's 45% rye malt with caramel and chocolate rye malt, and a healthy dose of maize. Like Denny I don't get the aversion some have to crystal/caramel malts, to me they're indispensable, and very few of my brews have none in the bill. We do all have our own preferences though, and I've liked beers that had close to 30% caramel/crystal malt.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: EnkAMania on September 16, 2019, 02:48:29 PM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

I almost always use crystal in any APA/AIPA and several other styles.  Don't really understand why it fell out of favor, but it seems to be trendy to not use it.

I was one of those who stopped using crystal.  Then I was at a malt tasting and crystal won me back.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: goose on September 17, 2019, 01:29:25 PM
This may be anathema to many, but I’d suggest a light touch of crystal 40-60L.  This is coming from one who rarely uses much crystal and when I do it is usually 10L or lower.  With rye, the crystal adds a nice counterpoint to my palate.  With the recipe in the article, maybe add a half pound of crystal 60?

Just my 2 cents...Cheers!

I almost always use crystal in any APA/AIPA and several other styles.  Don't really understand why it fell out of favor, but it seems to be trendy to not use it.

+1

I have always put a small amount of crystal in my APA/IPA.  My rye IPA that advanced to the final round of the NHC twice had some crystal malt in it as well. I was never sure why it fell out of favor either.  I always thought it added an extra flavor dimension to the beer.

(Note to Denny)  I always forget to tell you this but my rye IPA recipe, which was a modified version of yours, became the rye IPA we brewed at Hoppin' Frog for several years, "Hopped up Goose Juice".  It was one of the earlier rye IPA's that came on the scene when craft breweries started getting on the band wagon with this style.
Title: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: BrewBama on September 17, 2019, 02:06:29 PM
It may have fallen out of favor when Gordon Strong started encouraging using less caramel/crystal saying the sweetness clashed with the hoppy-ness about the time Brewing Better Beer came out.  I believe he used to say Munich is the new crystal or something like that. I don’t think he said to eliminate crystal malts but rather be judicious in their use. ...but homebrewers took that advice to extreme and crystal malts became taboo. I’ve seen recently that even 5-6% caramel/crystal is being rejected as too sweet and a clash in an IPA.  I don’t get it but to each their own.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 17, 2019, 03:24:53 PM
I first heard it at a Vinnie Cilurzo talk at NHC. He said to use 5% or less Crystal of 20L or lighter. The dark sugar, dark fruit, dried fruit flavors as the Lovibond increased clashed with the citrus and pine flavors of the hops he was using. Of course that was interpreted as low/no Crystal.

Here is one that used a touch of dark Crystal. It works with the EKG. I should brew it again.
http://www.brewery.org/cm3/recs/01_114.html

Ivey also brewed a Balantine IPA using C80L. That works great using Bullion and Brewers Gold hops.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 17, 2019, 03:58:29 PM
I first heard it at a Vinnie Cilurzo talk at NHC. He said to use 5% or less Crystal of 20L or lighter. The dark sugar, dark fruit, dried fruit flavors as the Lovibond increased clashed with the citrus and pine flavors of the hops he was using. Of course that was interpreted as low/no Crystal.

Here is one that used a touch of dark Crystal. It works with the EKG. I should brew it again.
http://www.brewery.org/cm3/recs/01_114.html

Ivey also brewed a Balantine IPA using C80L. That works great using Bullion and Brewers Gold hops.

It's funny how one person's opinion becomes many people's rule.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Robert on September 17, 2019, 04:31:11 PM
Over time I came to learn that my preference is for essentially all-base-malt beers, nobody else influenced me.  But as my processes, and perhaps taste, change, flavors can play differently.  I'm starting to play with reintroducing very small amounts of certain crystal/caramel malts as an accent on or enhancer of base type malts, but not necessarily an identifiable component themselves.  As in everything, its a matter of balance and personal taste.
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: BrewBama on September 17, 2019, 04:51:48 PM
I first heard it at a Vinnie Cilurzo talk at NHC. He said to use 5% or less Crystal of 20L or lighter. The dark sugar, dark fruit, dried fruit flavors as the Lovibond increased clashed with the citrus and pine flavors of the hops he was using. Of course that was interpreted as low/no Crystal.

Here is one that used a touch of dark Crystal. It works with the EKG. I should brew it again.
http://www.brewery.org/cm3/recs/01_114.html

Ivey also brewed a Balantine IPA using C80L. That works great using Bullion and Brewers Gold hops.

It's funny how one person's opinion becomes many people's rule.

Especially when he says “Low” crystal vs “No” crystal.   https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-for-better-ipas-from-vinnie-cilurzo/


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Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: Fire Rooster on September 17, 2019, 05:02:49 PM
Briess suggestions.

40L
SUGGESTED USAGE LEVELS

3-7% For balance in Pilsners
5-10% California Common Beer, Doppelbocks and Dark Lagers
5-15% Vienna, Marzen and Oktoberfest
10-15% Bitter Ales, Pale Ales, Mild Ales, Strong Ales and Belgian Ales
5-15% Certain styles of Brown Ales, Scotch Ales, Stouts and Porter




http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CaramelMalt40L.pdf
Title: Re: Rye Pale Ale: Where to now?
Post by: denny on September 17, 2019, 05:41:14 PM
Briess suggests to keep crystal low.

40L
SUGGESTED USAGE LEVELS

3-7% For balance in Pilsners
5-10% California Common Beer, Doppelbocks and Dark Lagers
5-15% Vienna, Marzen and Oktoberfest
10-15% Bitter Ales, Pale Ales, Mild Ales, Strong Ales and Belgian Ales
5-15% Certain styles of Brown Ales, Scotch Ales, Stouts and Porter




http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CaramelMalt40L.pdf

Briess has no idea what my own tastes are.  And I don't consider 15% to be low.  But their recommendations could be a useful place to start.