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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Megary on July 31, 2019, 03:46:28 pm

Title: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on July 31, 2019, 03:46:28 pm
I'm trying to decide on a yeast for a porter that I will be brewing in a week or two.  Medium attenuation, malty finish.  Slight fruit is ok...I doubt it will get past the grain bill.

I've narrowed it down to these.

1450
S-04
WLP001
1318

I know Denny's preference (and I'm leaning that way), but if I told you that this beer will be sitting at 68 (the lowest temp I can reliably maintain), would that change your mind?
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on July 31, 2019, 04:20:25 pm
I'm trying to decide on a yeast for a porter that I will be brewing in a week or two.  Medium attenuation, malty finish.  Slight fruit is ok...I doubt it will get past the grain bill.

I've narrowed it down to these.

1450
S-04
WLP001
1318

I know Denny's preference (and I'm leaning that way), but if I told you that this beer will be sitting at 68 (the lowest temp I can reliably maintain), would that change your mind?

Nope in terms of 1450
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Robert on July 31, 2019, 07:03:56 pm
I've made some very nice porters with S-04.  It also offers the convenience of direct pitching with no starter or aeration if that's a consideration this time of year.  001 could work fine, but I just am not fond of 1318.  Full disclosure:  I have never used 1450.  Sorry Denny!  At least I've finally come clean!
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: mainebrewer on July 31, 2019, 08:59:31 pm
Assuming this is an English style porter, I'd use WLP002.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on July 31, 2019, 09:14:43 pm
I've made some very nice porters with S-04.  It also offers the convenience of direct pitching with no starter or aeration if that's a consideration this time of year.  001 could work fine, but I just am not fond of 1318.  Full disclosure:  I have never used 1450.  Sorry Denny!  At least I've finally come clean!

You should try it.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Robert on July 31, 2019, 09:42:34 pm
I've made some very nice porters with S-04.  It also offers the convenience of direct pitching with no starter or aeration if that's a consideration this time of year.  001 could work fine, but I just am not fond of 1318.  Full disclosure:  I have never used 1450.  Sorry Denny!  At least I've finally come clean!

You should try it.
So many yeasts so little time.  Always meant to.  And I'm deep in lager mode again.  But thinking about a Burton for the Holidays.   Sounds like a great opportunity!
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on July 31, 2019, 10:14:50 pm
Assuming this is an English style porter, I'd use WLP002.

I considered this yeast, but its optimum temperature "range" is listed at 65-68.  I will barely be able to keep it stored at 68 (assuming no more heat waves). I don't know how much this really matters, but the other ones that I listed at least give me some margin for error.  I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm not interested in pushing the envelope.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: BrewBama on August 01, 2019, 12:48:56 am
Mangrove Jacks M42 and M15 temp range: 61 - 72°F (16 - 22°C).


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Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on August 01, 2019, 12:14:44 pm
Mangrove Jacks M42 and M15 temp range: 61 - 72°F (16 - 22°C).


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That's another one I considered but felt the attenuation was too high.  Maybe if this was a RIS...
OG will be in the mid 50's, hoping to finish in the low teens.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: goose on August 01, 2019, 01:27:06 pm
I use Wyeast 1028 (London Ale) in my porters.  It is a bit fruitier, but I like the esters I get from it

Just my .02
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on August 01, 2019, 02:18:45 pm
Assuming this is an English style porter, I'd use WLP002.

I considered this yeast, but its optimum temperature "range" is listed at 65-68.  I will barely be able to keep it stored at 68 (assuming no more heat waves). I don't know how much this really matters, but the other ones that I listed at least give me some margin for error.  I'm probably overthinking this, but I'm not interested in pushing the envelope.

Take temp ranges with a grain of salt
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Iliff Ave on August 01, 2019, 02:31:53 pm
I'll go out on a limb and vote for WLP001 just so you don't really have to be concerned about temp. English yeasts start to get a bit icky TO ME at the temp you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on August 01, 2019, 02:48:19 pm
I use Wyeast 1028 (London Ale) in my porters.  It is a bit fruitier, but I like the esters I get from it

Good call, thanks.  It checks the boxes I'm looking to check.

I'll go out on a limb and vote for WLP001 just so you don't really have to be concerned about temp.

Got it. Thanks.

I appreciate the feedback.  I now have options when I walk into the LHBS!
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Kevin on August 01, 2019, 03:17:16 pm
Lately I've been using Imperial A09 Pub and I like it so much It's pretty much my new go-to for all my English ales.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: TREE on August 01, 2019, 06:01:40 pm
Personally I would go with WLP001 since I use the dry version, US-05 at 68F and I've had great results.  This year my Porter took gold at NHC.

I'm interested in try 1450 though.  Sounds like it would work great.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on August 01, 2019, 06:11:33 pm
Personally I would go with WLP001 since I use the dry version, US-05 at 68F and I've had great results.  This year my Porter took gold at NHC.

I'm interested in try 1450 though.  Sounds like it would work great.

Be aware that 001, 1056, and 001 produce different results.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Robert on August 01, 2019, 07:49:10 pm
Personally I would go with WLP001 since I use the dry version, US-05 at 68F and I've had great results.  This year my Porter took gold at NHC.

I'm interested in try 1450 though.  Sounds like it would work great.

Be aware that 001, 1056, and 001 produce different results.

Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion around here about all the genetic information that's come out in the last couple of years.  Those are 3 different yeasts.  Beware of the supposed "equivalents" popularly circulated, virtually none is even close to correct.  Much more important is knowing how each individual yeast performs, since assuming that one will give similar results to another based on supposed relationships is unlikely to succeed.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on August 01, 2019, 08:41:57 pm
Personally I would go with WLP001 since I use the dry version, US-05 at 68F and I've had great results.  This year my Porter took gold at NHC.

I'm interested in try 1450 though.  Sounds like it would work great.

Be aware that 001, 1056, and 001 produce different results.

Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion around here about all the genetic information that's come out in the last couple of years.  Those are 3 different yeasts.  Beware of the supposed "equivalents" popularly circulated, virtually none is even close to correct.  Much more important is knowing how each individual yeast performs, since assuming that one will give similar results to another based on supposed relationships is unlikely to succeed.

Genetics aside, they produce different results. 
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: rburrelli on August 01, 2019, 09:53:42 pm
Personally I would go with WLP001 since I use the dry version, US-05 at 68F and I've had great results.  This year my Porter took gold at NHC.

I'm interested in try 1450 though.  Sounds like it would work great.

I can report great results with 1450.  Denny’s VIP was a tremendous hit with me and many friends. Fruit esters were great.  Stone fruits came through really well.

I still have a half dozen bottles about a year old at this point.  I am seeing how they age.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: blatz on August 05, 2019, 02:42:44 pm
1450 is a great versatile yeast overall, but really shines in ambers, browns and porters IMHO
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: KellerBrauer on August 06, 2019, 12:03:29 pm
Assuming this is an English style porter, I'd use WLP002.

+1

This is my all time favorite porter yeast!
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: goose on August 06, 2019, 01:04:25 pm
Assuming this is an English style porter, I'd use WLP002.

+1

This is my all time favorite porter yeast!

I use WLP002 in my ESB.  It is a great yeast for that style.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: coolman26 on August 06, 2019, 09:03:47 pm
Anything with color gets 1450 here.
I usually brew brown, porter, then RIS with it. It gets better with every generation for me. I try to always have it in hand.


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Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: KellerBrauer on August 07, 2019, 11:07:56 am
Assuming this is an English style porter, I'd use WLP002.

+1

This is my all time favorite porter yeast!



I use WLP002 in my ESB.  It is a great yeast for that style.

+1 Again!

I also used this yeast in my ESB earlier this year.  It performed wonderfully!!
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on September 08, 2019, 03:04:30 pm
For housekeeping purposes, because these type of threads are so much more helpful when the OP actually follows up and lets interested parties know how they made out.   :)

I ended up using 1450 in the porter mainly because I had great results with it in my previous beer, an IPA.  The IPA came out really tasty and very much "to style"...hop forward, clean and relatively dry.  No mistaking this beer for anything other than an IPA.  (That may not sound like much to those who have made hundreds of beers, but for a new brewer making a style that honestly tastes no different (and often better) than what I get on tap at a brew pub...well that's something for sure!)

I got good attenuation with the IPA which is always a bonus, but it was the "clean" part that sold me on 1450. 

The porter fermented at 68 for 2 weeks and then packaged.  It's only been conditioning for 1 week, but I couldn't help myself and popped one open yesterday.  Again, the taste is all porter...roast, a bit of chocolate, all about the malt.  Very complex and honestly, very good (even if it has not quite finished carbing). No fruit, no nothing from the yeast other than 75% attenuation. 

Really liking 1450.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on September 08, 2019, 03:40:28 pm
For housekeeping purposes, because these type of threads are so much more helpful when the OP actually follows up and lets interested parties know how they made out.   :)

I ended up using 1450 in the porter mainly because I had great results with it in my previous beer, an IPA.  The IPA came out really tasty and very much "to style"...hop forward, clean and relatively dry.  No mistaking this beer for anything other than an IPA.  (That may not sound like much to those who have made hundreds of beers, but for a new brewer making a style that honestly tastes no different (and often better) than what I get on tap at a brew pub...well that's something for sure!)

I got good attenuation with the IPA which is always a bonus, but it was the "clean" part that sold me on 1450. 

The porter fermented at 68 for 2 weeks and then packaged.  It's only been conditioning for 1 week, but I couldn't help myself and popped one open yesterday.  Again, the taste is all porter...roast, a bit of chocolate, all about the malt.  Very complex and honestly, very good (even if it has not quite finished carbing). No fruit, no nothing from the yeast other than 75% attenuation. 

Really liking 1450.

Glad you're enjoying it! 
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: skyler on September 09, 2019, 02:48:21 am
68F fermentation temperature or will the fermenter be sitting in a 68F room? If it's the latter, the true fermentation temperature will probably be 72-76F, which is too warm for any of those yeasts, IME, but WLP001 would be my choice at that temperature.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on September 09, 2019, 12:50:01 pm
68F fermentation temperature or will the fermenter be sitting in a 68F room? If it's the latter, the true fermentation temperature will probably be 72-76F, which is too warm for any of those yeasts, IME, but WLP001 would be my choice at that temperature.

68F room temp.  Sure, the yeast will work up a good lather and raise the actual temperature some measurable amount.  But how much in a 2.5 gal batch? And to what end??  I chose 1450 based on previous good results (at the same temperature) and early returns on the porter say that it has been a success again.  Clean, which is what I was hoping for.

FWIW, I currently have WLP001 hard at work on a Gooseberry Wheat/Fruit Beer (66-67F, same room that is starting to cool down) and it managed to keep the airlock active for a full week, which is 2-3 days longer than I'm used to seeing.  I realize the airlock is not a reliable guide to the success or failure of fermentation and certainly not all worts are the same, but I found that interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: skyler on November 08, 2019, 05:07:31 am
Sure, the yeast will work up a good lather and raise the actual temperature some measurable amount.  But how much in a 2.5 gal batch? And to what end??

My experience is ales increase 4-8 degrees during fermentation. 6 degrees 90% of the time. To what end? For my taste buds a 74º F-fermented American ale just tastes like homebrew, not like professional beer. Fruity and spicy in a bad way, is how I put it. Add "extract tang" and a ton of suspended sediment in the glass and you have 95% of the beer i brewed my first year. It's... not my preference. If you like it, more power to you.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on November 08, 2019, 05:25:48 pm
Sure, the yeast will work up a good lather and raise the actual temperature some measurable amount.  But how much in a 2.5 gal batch? And to what end??

My experience is ales increase 4-8 degrees during fermentation. 6 degrees 90% of the time. To what end? For my taste buds a 74º F-fermented American ale just tastes like homebrew, not like professional beer. Fruity and spicy in a bad way, is how I put it. Add "extract tang" and a ton of suspended sediment in the glass and you have 95% of the beer i brewed my first year. It's... not my preference. If you like it, more power to you.

I get you.  But for what its worth, the Porter I made with 1450 and fermented at 68° room temperature had no signs of fruity/home brew anything.  Nothing off-flavor about it at all.  Maybe it was masked by the roasty grains, maybe 1450 isn't as susceptible to throwing that off flavor at that temp, maybe a whole pack of 1450 in a 2.5 gallon batch doesn't stress the little buggers all that much.  Whatever the reason, the Porter came out great (I did like it!) and since it didn't last long, I plan on brewing another soon.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: skyler on November 09, 2019, 01:07:18 am
In my experience, 1450 is moderately to very temperature-sensitive. I adore it in dark ales fermented 62-66F, but find it to be a poor performer much cooler and I have found it to throw out a lot of esters in the 72-74F range. One pack to 2.5 gallons is the correct pitch rate (assuming moderate gravity and a reasonably fresh pack), not some sort of overpitch. The roasty grains masking flaws is highly likely, as some people are more sensitive to yeast-driven flavors than others and some people like esters that others don't. For example, lots of people love WLP007 and I absolutely hate it. Warm, cool, English bitters, porters, and West Coast IPA -- I have hated that yeast in all of them because I find the ester profile weird (and yes, I do like Stone beers, but not that much and I frequently disliked the "one off" beers they had at their facility in Napa when I lived there last year). Likewise, I really like S-04 fermented super cool (58-62F) and I know a lot of people who despise it in any capacity.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on November 09, 2019, 01:17:12 pm
I would agree that if 1450 produced any esters/off floavors, it was the dark grains that helped to mask them.  However, I previously used 1450 in a IPA at the same 68 room temp and it was unnoticeable there as well.  Maybe that time it was the hops doing the work of the dark grains and hiding any issues??  Hard to say, but all I've noticed from 1450 at this temp is solid attenuation: 81% with the IPA, 74% with the porter.

I don't doubt you on pitch rate.  Frankly I don't understand pitch rate at all.  I used a calculator once to determine if my liquid yeast was still viable and it told me, based on the date of the package, that all my yeast was already dead!  I smacked the pack, it blew up like a balloon, in it went and fermentation proceeded as usual.   ???  I don't use calculators anymore.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: reverseapachemaster on November 09, 2019, 03:05:41 pm
I don't doubt you on pitch rate.  Frankly I don't understand pitch rate at all.  I used a calculator once to determine if my liquid yeast was still viable and it told me, based on the date of the package, that all my yeast was already dead!  I smacked the pack, it blew up like a balloon, in it went and fermentation proceeded as usual.   ???  I don't use calculators anymore.

IMO all the calculators run conservative on yeast viability which kind of makes sense that you would rather have a calculator undershoot viability and take steps to make sure you pitch healthy yeast than have the calculator overshoot and then you don't pitch enough healthy yeast and end up with fermentation problems.

I believe most of them rely on viability expectations from yeast labs who themselves want to be known as reliable producers of healthy yeasts and conservatively estimate viability. That way shops will stock and sell you fresh product so you get good fermentations and they get happy customers.

A lot of this is strain dependent, too. Some strains are viable and easy to revive even after years in the back of your fridge but others are tough to get to grow and be healthy a little outside of the yeast lab's viability expectations. You'll never go wrong buying fresh yeast but with older yeast you should give yourself a little time cushion to make a starter and grow up the yeast volume if needed.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on November 09, 2019, 03:51:45 pm
In my experience, 1450 is moderately to very temperature-sensitive. I adore it in dark ales fermented 62-66F, but find it to be a poor performer much cooler and I have found it to throw out a lot of esters in the 72-74F range. One pack to 2.5 gallons is the correct pitch rate (assuming moderate gravity and a reasonably fresh pack), not some sort of overpitch. The roasty grains masking flaws is highly likely, as some people are more sensitive to yeast-driven flavors than others and some people like esters that others don't. For example, lots of people love WLP007 and I absolutely hate it. Warm, cool, English bitters, porters, and West Coast IPA -- I have hated that yeast in all of them because I find the ester profile weird (and yes, I do like Stone beers, but not that much and I frequently disliked the "one off" beers they had at their facility in Napa when I lived there last year). Likewise, I really like S-04 fermented super cool (58-62F) and I know a lot of people who despise it in any capacity.

FWIW, I often run 1450 in the mid to upper 50s without problems.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on November 09, 2019, 03:53:20 pm
I would agree that if 1450 produced any esters/off floavors, it was the dark grains that helped to mask them.  However, I previously used 1450 in a IPA at the same 68 room temp and it was unnoticeable there as well.  Maybe that time it was the hops doing the work of the dark grains and hiding any issues??  Hard to say, but all I've noticed from 1450 at this temp is solid attenuation: 81% with the IPA, 74% with the porter.

I don't doubt you on pitch rate.  Frankly I don't understand pitch rate at all.  I used a calculator once to determine if my liquid yeast was still viable and it told me, based on the date of the package, that all my yeast was already dead!  I smacked the pack, it blew up like a balloon, in it went and fermentation proceeded as usual.   ???  I don't use calculators anymore.

Pitch rate is a canard. Yeast vitality what really matters not exact cell counts.
Title: Yeast for a porter
Post by: BrewBama on November 09, 2019, 09:28:28 pm
While yeast health vitality is certainly a high priority, I believe a robust pitch rate of healthy yeast reduces lag time, reduces stress (and possibly the resulting off flavors), and finishes quickly and completely.


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Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Robert on November 09, 2019, 10:14:50 pm
While yeast health vitality is certainly a high priority, I believe a robust pitch rate of healthy yeast reduces lag time, reduces stress (and possibly the resulting off flavors), and finishes quickly and completely.


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Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Megary on November 09, 2019, 11:15:13 pm
Denny and Brew Bama sum up my thoughts on pitching yeast.  The one thing I have come to appreciate about brewing 2.5gal. batches is that even if a properly handled pack of yeast has some dearly departed members, there always seems to be plenty left to do the job.  I won't dismiss cell count/pitch rate - in the extreme, 0 active cells won't ferment anything -  just that I don't think the calculators are particularly accurate. At least not for packaged yeast, for all the reasons reverseapachemaster mentions. Maybe for starters they are more useful?  I'll never know.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: denny on November 10, 2019, 05:34:43 pm
While yeast health vitality is certainly a high priority, I believe a robust pitch rate of healthy yeast reduces lag time, reduces stress (and possibly the resulting off flavors), and finishes quickly and completely.


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Which is true...you need to pitch an appropriate amount of healthy yeast.  But as long as it's "enough", cell count doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Robert on November 10, 2019, 06:17:15 pm
But "enough" really is a matter of biomass, fundamentally, which is measurable as cell count, even if you are measuring by a proxy like volume instead of actual counts with a hemocytometer.  I think the terminology can mislead homebrewers.  This is aggravated by the proliferation  of calculators that presume to predict actual cell count when they really have no way of doing so, which just makes homebrewers focus on imagined cell counts.  We really need to think in terms of mass of healthy yeast and empirically find a way of judging that that gives consistent results.  For me, volume of slurry is the only thing I can estimate with any consistency.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Visor on November 11, 2019, 03:58:47 pm
   But density of the slurry can vary dramatically, sometimes the harvested yeast has the consistency of warm molasses, sometimes cold peanut butter. I have little doubt that there a buttload more yeast cells per mL in the thicker stuff than the thin stuff. In the absence of some way to accurately test the viability of that yeast, I'm not going to presume to guess at it. I know what usually works for me, but "usually" isn't the same as "always".
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Robert on November 11, 2019, 04:05:18 pm
   But density of the slurry can vary dramatically, sometimes the harvested yeast has the consistency of warm molasses, sometimes cold peanut butter. I have little doubt that there a buttload more yeast cells per mL in the thicker stuff than the thin stuff. In the absence of some way to accurately test the viability of that yeast, I'm not going to presume to guess at it.
Well, my system has evolved so that my slurry is allowed to pack down to a consistent consistency ( ) from which I judge the amount needed for pitching (this varies with gravity, temperature, and age of slurry, and maybe intuition.)  It may be somewhat arbitrary, but I'd bet less so than any of the calculators and charts out there, and it's proven to work for me.  So I trust consistent experience over somebody else's assumptions.
Title: Re: Yeast for a porter
Post by: Visor on November 11, 2019, 04:42:08 pm
   Yup, where would we be without good ol' SWAGs?