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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Bogonzales1972 on October 16, 2019, 03:58:51 am

Title: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Bogonzales1972 on October 16, 2019, 03:58:51 am
Just wanted to make sure I was on the right path with this. As I understand it you can ferment a lager at ale temps as long as you keep it under pressure (12 psi). Is this the case or am I off base? Just looking for a little rudder.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Robert on October 16, 2019, 11:22:05 am
You are correct.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: dmtaylor on October 16, 2019, 12:11:53 pm
Re-e-e-e-eally!?  I wonder how well this might work for me then, being as that I now have two 3-foot tall thin vase fermenters.  Mua-ha-ha.  Unfortunately I guess that's only like 1 psi average, not 12.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: denny on October 16, 2019, 02:07:31 pm
Just wanted to make sure I was on the right path with this. As I understand it you can ferment a lager at ale temps as long as you keep it under pressure (12 psi). Is this the case or am I off base? Just looking for a little rudder.

You can generally get good results fermenting a lager at ale temps without pressure
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 16, 2019, 02:28:32 pm
Have a read of this thread : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/warm-fermented-lager-thread.592169/

TLDR - you should be fine without pressure, as long as you use the right yeast. The favourite seems to be California steam yeasts like Mangrove Jack M54 California Lager, followed by WLP800 Pilsner; 34/70 also works but doesn't drop as cleanly.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: denny on October 16, 2019, 08:33:47 pm
I've been getting great results with Lallemand Diamnond Lager, their version of the Wienstephan yeast.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Steve Ruch on October 17, 2019, 05:32:53 pm
I've been getting great results with Lallemand Diamnond Lager, their version of the Wienstephan yeast.
Good to know as I have two of them to use when it gets a bit cooler here.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: purduekenn on November 05, 2019, 04:00:02 pm
I've had good results with 34/70 in the mid 60's without pressure. I need to try Lallemand Diamnond Lager yeast.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: HopDen on November 05, 2019, 09:36:40 pm
Let me toss this in the thread, opinions on dry yeast vs liquid for lager type brews? Just read David Miller's Continental Pilsener and he does not recommend the use of dry yeasts for pilsners. I love 34/70 and use it often. I also collect and re-pitch if brew days overlap.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Robert on November 05, 2019, 09:44:57 pm
All of the  books in the BA Classic Styles series are hopelessly out of date, and most weren't based on authoritative information to start with -- nothing on Dave Miller, just the way it was.  Dry yeast was often questionable a few decades ago, but has come a long way in the last few decades.  If you like it, use it, you're not alone!
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 06, 2019, 02:52:34 am
Let me toss this in the thread, opinions on dry yeast vs liquid for lager type brews? Just read David Miller's Continental Pilsener and he does not recommend the use of dry yeasts for pilsners. I love 34/70 and use it often. I also collect and re-pitch if brew days overlap.

Thoughts?

I will add to what Rob said, the Miller Continental Pilsner book is far out of date. Was it number 2 in the series?

I perused my copy a couple of years back. When new it was information I didn't have. Now it is a historic piece, that allows us to gaugy how much information we have today.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: HopDen on November 06, 2019, 11:12:10 am
All of the  books in the BA Classic Styles series are hopelessly out of date, and most weren't based on authoritative information to start with -- nothing on Dave Miller, just the way it was.  Dry yeast was often questionable a few decades ago, but has come a long way in the last few decades.  If you like it, use it, you're not alone!

I'm not too sad to hear this. Although it is yet another book for the library shelf in the office, it is one that will sit with similar company.
Thanks for the feedback!

Also, idk if I'm getting lazy or what, but it's just so much easier to add dry yeast to a waiting batch of warm wort than to spend 2 days making, watching and tending to a starter. Although, I still do quite a few starters, if for any reason, the variety is better using liquid.
Title: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: BrewBama on November 06, 2019, 03:06:38 pm
FWIW, I’ve fermented several beers now with W34/70, S-189, and M54 dry lager yeast at 62 and 65*F. (Atmospheric pressure)

I did this because I wanted to pitch as soon as I cool and transfer to the fermenter.  Previously I’d cool the wort as much as I could then wait until the fridge cooled it the rest of the way. For lagers, this took my 30+ yr old fermentation camber fridge overnight to get the wort into the 50(s)*F.  I considered this overnight wait a risk.

I use dry yeast because my homebrew supply is a corner in a health food store. They don’t sell liquid yeast. Shipping liquid yeast to AL is a crap shoot and I’ve been the brunt of DOA liquid yeast one too many times. I’ve heard homebrewers say they keep dry yeast in reserve just in case of an emergency. Interestingly, I’ve never heard a dry yeast emergency. It’s more reliable. But I digress.

With the M54 I used 1/2 gram per liter and with S-189 I used 1 gram per liter. With W34/70 I used both 1/2g and 1g per liter in separate beers.

After cooling, I transfer half the wort to the fermenter, sprinkle the yeast on top, cover and wait ~15 min (clean something). Then, I fill the fermenter completely.

At 1/2 gram per liter the ferment had a sluggish start and seemed to struggle at the end. Same ole lager ferment.

At 1 g per liter, I experienced the fastest I’ve seen a ferment show airlock activity (regardless of yeast) and the fastest I’ve seen a lager completely finish.  The 62*F vs 65*F didn’t seem to matter on start or finish.

I have improved my cooling technique so if I can get the wort cooled into the 50(s)*F, I will to see if I get the same performance at 1 g per liter.

Of course, none of this matters if the end product sux. But it doesn’t. It’s good beer with no weird esters or any other off flavor that would indicate these are anything short of a clean crisp lager.

However, if I can cool my wort into the 50(s)*F so I can pitch 1 g per liter, and if I get the same start and finish performance, I’ll probably do that. If I can’t cool it enough, or it’s sluggish, I’ll go with 62*F.


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Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: denny on November 06, 2019, 03:46:48 pm
Let me toss this in the thread, opinions on dry yeast vs liquid for lager type brews? Just read David Miller's Continental Pilsener and he does not recommend the use of dry yeasts for pilsners. I love 34/70 and use it often. I also collect and re-pitch if brew days overlap.

Thoughts?

Outdated info.  I frequently use 34/70, S-189 and lately a lot of Lallemand Diamond lager.  All are great yeasts.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Visor on November 06, 2019, 05:40:25 pm
FWIW, I’ve fermented several beers now with W34/70, S-189, and M54 dry lager yeast at 62 and 65*F.

   As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 06, 2019, 06:52:33 pm
FWIW, I’ve fermented several beers now with W34/70, S-189, and M54 dry lager yeast at 62 and 65*F.

   As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.

What's your experience with S-189 at those temps? I love S-189 but haven't heard much on running it warm.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: dmtaylor on November 06, 2019, 08:47:02 pm
As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.

Says who!?  If you're correct and can provide me the specific source then I guess I'd better update my master spreadsheet!  News to me.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: HopDen on November 06, 2019, 09:39:13 pm
FWIW, I’ve fermented several beers now with W34/70, S-189, and M54 dry lager yeast at 62 and 65*F.

   As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.
FWIW, I’ve fermented several beers now with W34/70, S-189, and M54 dry lager yeast at 62 and 65*F.

   As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.

I use 34/70 on my cream ale recipe and i pitch @50 and let it free rise to 55 let it ride out until diacetyl rest.

I'm definitely going to use on my next beer which will be my first attempt brewing a pilsner. I might go as low as 48* and see what happens. Temp range is 53-59 but hey, BTTW!
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Visor on November 07, 2019, 04:36:04 pm
As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.

Says who!?  If you're correct and can provide me the specific source then I guess I'd better update my master spreadsheet!  News to me.

   That's the information that Mangrove Jacks provided to me. If I still have the email in which they told me this I'll try to PM it to you Dave. According to the info they provided the only "real" lager yeast they sell is M-76 Bavarian which is a combination of Sacc. C and Pastorianus.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 07, 2019, 06:28:48 pm
As I recently found out though, M-54 is Sacc. C. and isn't really Lager yeast. My apologies for picking nits.

Says who!?  If you're correct and can provide me the specific source then I guess I'd better update my master spreadsheet!  News to me.

   That's the information that Mangrove Jacks provided to me. If I still have the email in which they told me this I'll try to PM it to you Dave. According to the info they provided the only "real" lager yeast they sell is M-76 Bavarian which is a combination of Sacc. C and Pastorianus.

Good to know. My house lager yeast is a blend of M-76 and S-189.
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: Robert on November 07, 2019, 06:54:45 pm
MJ just repackages and resells other manufacturers' yeast (mostly Lallemand and Fermentis,) they have no labs of their own and are notorious for not knowing or inquiring as to what's in the packet and just calling them all S. cerevisiae.   But the genetic data has gotten a major update again in the last month, and if you've followed it these past couple of years, yes, the conventional categories of "ale" and "lager" and "cerevisiae" and "pastorianus" have been shown to have been quite a bit more confused than was thought.  Many lager yeasts are cerevisiae,  many ale yeasts pastorianus,  and in fact there are far more than these two basic classifications.  Dave's chart is kept well up to date and we should applaud him for it; that said, his interpretation of some of the data will naturally differ somewhat from that of others like Kristoffer Krogerus (suregork) or other denizens of the labs and interwebs.  It's all in flux still at this point.  But all that matters is how a yeast works for you, so ignore the labels and terminology and carry on brewing as you were!
Title: Re: Fermenting a lager under pressure at room temp 68 degrees
Post by: dmtaylor on November 08, 2019, 04:00:30 am
   That's the information that Mangrove Jacks provided to me. If I still have the email in which they told me this I'll try to PM it to you Dave. According to the info they provided the only "real" lager yeast they sell is M-76 Bavarian which is a combination of Sacc. C and Pastorianus.

(EDIT: I typed the following even before reading Robert's response that is immediately above this post:)

Mangrove Jack's actually has no idea themselves, since they don't actually manufacture their own yeast but rather just repackage yeast from other places.   ;D