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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: David K on October 27, 2019, 10:15:10 PM

Title: Bottling sugar
Post by: David K on October 27, 2019, 10:15:10 PM
I’m looking for the actual formulas to calculate how much table sugar, honey, dme, lme, brown sugar etc. to prime.  I would like to see a formula that takes into account the temp, volume of brew, residual co2, attenuation of yeast and brew sugars.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 27, 2019, 10:45:51 PM
After 20 years, here's my formula:

2 tablespoons table sugar per gallon
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Kevin on October 27, 2019, 11:14:05 PM
^^^^ Same here.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 27, 2019, 11:33:38 PM
In part, this is really very simple.  We know exactly how many grams of fermentable sugar yield how many grams of CO2, and the density of CO2 allowing us to translate grams of CO2 into volumes.  You can also find out how much fermentable sugar each of those products contains.  But what you likely will not know is how much residual fermentable sugar and how much CO2 your beer already contains before priming; those factors would need to be actually measured.

Dave and Kevin are right on target.  Adopt a rule of thumb, strive for consistency in your process,  and refine based on the results.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: BrewBama on October 28, 2019, 01:36:00 AM
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Accurately_Calculating_Sugar_Additions_for_Carbonation


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Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: David K on October 28, 2019, 02:08:16 AM
It’s refreshing to hear from an adult instead of the prepubescents with their indecorous comments. Thanks BrewBama.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 28, 2019, 02:34:44 AM
It’s refreshing to hear from an adult instead of the prepubescents with their indecorous comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSVGB4YWW1g
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 28, 2019, 02:40:38 AM
It’s refreshing to hear from an adult instead of the prepubescents with their indecorous comments. Thanks BrewBama.
Wow, second post here on the forum.  That took an abrupt turn.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on October 28, 2019, 01:49:10 PM
It’s refreshing to hear from an adult instead of the prepubescents with their indecorous comments. Thanks BrewBama.

David, you're new here so maybe you don't know....we treat each other respectfully here.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: kramerog on October 28, 2019, 04:58:09 PM
Honey's water content varies significantly so your results will probably differ from the prediction from a carbonation calculator.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on October 28, 2019, 05:20:49 PM
I appreciate Dave's attempt to simplify things with a "one size fits all".  Thats kinda what I do by using an oz. per gal.  Both my method and his will work Ok if you only brew styles that need that particular level of carbonation and you always follow the same fermentation temp regimen. But it's pretty inexact and you have to be willing to accept whatever level of carbonation you get from it.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 28, 2019, 05:49:30 PM
In real life, I deviate slightly based on experience, like I'll use slightly less than 2 tablespoons per gallon for British styles, to better emulate the traditional "warm and flat" stereotype where appropriate.  But I'll never ever use more than 2 Tbsp anymore, not even for hefeweizens, Belgians, etc., as I've had too many of these go overboard and gush all over the place and it drives me crazy.  Also if I think there is any risk of gushing, if I'm not 1000% sure that fermentation is complete (this never happens anymore but let's say maybe it's possible for others), I'd underprime slightly -- I mean we're talking 1.7-1.8 Tbsp or whatever, so nothing real drastic, I know it will still carbonate, but just build in a little insurance to prevent gushing.  Personally I prefer a "flat" beer over a gusher any day.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on October 28, 2019, 06:09:43 PM
In real life, I deviate slightly based on experience, like I'll use slightly less than 2 tablespoons per gallon for British styles, to better emulate the traditional "warm and flat" stereotype where appropriate.  But I'll never ever use more than 2 Tbsp anymore, not even for hefeweizens, Belgians, etc., as I've had too many of these go overboard and gush all over the place and it drives me crazy.  Also if I think there is any risk of gushing, if I'm not 1000% sure that fermentation is complete (this never happens anymore but let's say maybe it's possible for others), I'd underprime slightly -- I mean we're talking 1.7-1.8 Tbsp or whatever, so nothing real drastic, I know it will still carbonate, but just build in a little insurance to prevent gushing.  Personally I prefer a "flat" beer over a gusher any day.

Why no go by weight?  It's not easy to measure .8 Tbsp.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 28, 2019, 06:25:48 PM
Why no go by weight?  It's not easy to measure .8 Tbsp.

I dunno.  I never got around to it I guess.  And there are 3 teaspoons in a tablespoon, so 2.4 teaspoons is pretty easy to measure, just come up slightly short on one fill of a 1/2 teaspoon.  And as I always say... close enough is close enough, for me anyway.  I'm not positive I have a scale that can measure that tiny amount anyway.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: David K on October 28, 2019, 10:17:18 PM
There is only one person that addressed the question I asked. Dm you lost me with a less than risible answer the first time. I will not pander you by watching any videos or responding to any comments. As for respect, it needs to be earned by addressing the explicit question asked.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 28, 2019, 11:13:19 PM
If your interest was merely trivial, a simple Google search would have turned up the only two values (0.49g, CO2 produced by fermentation of 1g sugar; and 1.977g/L, density of CO2 @STP) needed to generate precisely the formula you seem to want.  If, however, your interest is in applying that information, in the context of brewing, toward achieving the end of properly and predictably carbonating beer, you might consider that you have received replies from several individuals, each possessing at least 2 to 3 decades of brewing experience, who are indicating to you that you are asking the wrong question.  We come here, to a forum, a venue for friendly exchange of information and furtherance of learning, eager to assist each other in improving their own brewing knowledge and techniques.  We would be glad to help you achieve your goals, and to learn what you have to offer, should you choose to continue as a member of this community.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 29, 2019, 12:14:13 AM
*gulp*

I've used the following calculator once or twice, literally.  And, for the veracious purpose of frivolity, this rejoinder is duly expressed with requisite superfluous ostentatiousness and prolixity.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/pages/priming-sugar-calculator
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 29, 2019, 12:36:42 AM
*gulp*

I've used the following calculator once or twice, literally.  And, for the veracious purpose of frivolity, this rejoinder is duly expressed with requisite superfluous ostentatiousness and prolixity.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/pages/priming-sugar-calculator
Brewer's Friend has one too, there are plenty.  But they all have to make unfounded or generalized assumptions about the residual sugar and CO2 already present in the beer.   It seemed to me that the request in the OP was for a universal formula that would incorporate universal, absolute values for those factors, which remains impossible as they simply must be actually measured in order to be definitively known.  So in the end, any calculator which looks really sciencey but assumes unsupported values for key factors is a barely even a SWAG, and will serve no better than starting with an arbitrary quantity of sugar and adjusting based on a long series of trials under consistent, actual, brewery conditions.  In fact, repeatedly relying on the calculator is worse, because it will keep leading one astray from following empirical evidence. 

But I don't think we'll see the OP again.  I think he got just what he wanted, a little jolly trolling.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 29, 2019, 12:45:28 AM
I don't think we'll see the OP again.  I think he got just what he wanted, a little jolly trolling.

But if he can get past his lack of risibility and our apparent indecorous lack of pubes, I'm sure we'd be happy to have him.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Richard on October 29, 2019, 04:47:32 AM
It’s refreshing to hear from an adult instead of the prepubescents with their indecorous comments. Thanks BrewBama.
Wow, second post here on the forum.  That took an abrupt turn.

Yeah, most people wait until their fourth or fifth post before insulting dmtaylor. Then they figure out that he really doesn't care, so there is no point to it and they stop. I skipped the intermediate step and just take him for what he is: an experienced homebrewer with a somewhat irreverent attitude.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on October 29, 2019, 10:54:01 AM
It’s refreshing to hear from an adult instead of the prepubescents with their indecorous comments. Thanks BrewBama.
Wow, second post here on the forum.  That took an abrupt turn.

Yeah, most people wait until their fourth or fifth post before insulting dmtaylor. Then they figure out that he really doesn't care, so there is no point to it and they stop. I skipped the intermediate step and just take him for what he is: an experienced homebrewer with a somewhat irreverent attitude.

Happy 3rd anniversary on the AHA forum, Richard.  :)
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: goose on October 29, 2019, 01:51:09 PM
I don't think we'll see the OP again.  I think he got just what he wanted, a little jolly trolling.

But if he can get past his lack of risibility and our apparent indecorous lack of pubes, I'm sure we'd be happy to have him.

Dave:  I always enjoy your posts here.  I usually glean useful knowledge and also can also LMAO from time to time.  This is one of those times for the latter.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Barbarian Brewer on October 29, 2019, 08:58:49 PM

Wow!  Who knew reading the AHA forum could be so educational? I feel so erudite now.   ;D
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: BrewBama on October 29, 2019, 09:42:36 PM
I had to break out the dictionary several posts ago.


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Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Visor on October 30, 2019, 03:20:32 PM
I had to break out the dictionary several posts ago.


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   And here I thought I was one of the last dinosaurs to still own and use one of those archaic tomes.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 30, 2019, 03:45:30 PM
I had to break out the dictionary several posts ago.


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   And here I thought I was one of the last dinosaurs to still own and use one of those archaic tomes.
Hardly alone there.  Know what else a big book like a dictionary is good for?  Heaving at those kids on your lawn. 
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: jeffy on October 30, 2019, 04:13:02 PM
I had to break out the dictionary several posts ago.


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   And here I thought I was one of the last dinosaurs to still own and use one of those archaic tomes.
Hardly alone there.  Know what else a big book like a dictionary is good for?  Heaving at those kids on your lawn. 
That couldn't work with the one we have on our mantle.  It's about four inches thick and was published in 1901.  It's good for storing letters and postcards to be discovered later.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 30, 2019, 04:45:48 PM


I had to break out the dictionary several posts ago.


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   And here I thought I was one of the last dinosaurs to still own and use one of those archaic tomes.
Hardly alone there.  Know what else a big book like a dictionary is good for?  Heaving at those kids on your lawn. 
That couldn't work with the one we have on our mantle.  It's about four inches thick and was published in 1901.  It's good for storing letters and postcards to be discovered later.

This will knock 'em out cold.  Has all those fancy words in it too.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191030/8b8db694f465dc72fef1f7a90ed5f757.jpg)
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: David K on October 30, 2019, 09:28:20 PM
Let me see if I can put this in a perspective you can understand. Let’s say someone asks about the engineering behind a automobile fuel injection system and how it affects fuel economy and mpg. And the answers comes back: Well I just put 15 gallons of regular gas from sams and I get 15 mpg.  Me too. Well you can find mpg’s for all cars online.
When the respondents get called out on there lack of knowledge their panties get in a wad and the wagons circle and they start spewing out more irrational comments of we have decades of experience driving cars so we should know. As far as I’m concerned the respondents should learn better reading comprehension and show some respect for the author and the question buy not filling up the post with a plethora of useless information. The apologies are due from all of the respondents except bama. If you enjoy stroking each other’s ego so much over nonsense, find another venue. One last thing, if you don’t have any legitimate knowledge pertaining to the questions on the site...move on.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 30, 2019, 10:37:47 PM
I’m looking for the actual formulas to calculate how much table sugar, honey, dme, lme, brown sugar etc. to prime.  I would like to see a formula that takes into account the temp, volume of brew, residual co2, attenuation of yeast and brew sugars.

It's a bit complicated as noted above, but years of experience will get you to a simplified approach.  RDWHAHB works easier.  Me, I keg.  ;)
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Richard on October 31, 2019, 02:17:40 AM
I’m looking for the actual formulas to calculate how much table sugar, honey, dme, lme, brown sugar etc. to prime.  I would like to see a formula that takes into account the temp, volume of brew, residual co2, attenuation of yeast and brew sugars.
BrewBama gave you the technical reference, then you started the name-calling afterwards.

Here is an article from BYO that goes into all the chemistry and technical details
https://byo.com/article/dose-carbing-co2-generation-from-sugar-sources/

You can also use BeerSmith and other calculators, which will get you the same results without having to do the math yourself.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on October 31, 2019, 02:36:21 AM
The problem with all of these resources remains:  they tell you how much CO2 your added sugar will generate.  They do not account for how much CO2 the beer already contains, nor how much fermentable sugar it contains.  Both of these must be ascertained before you know how much CO2 you still want to generate,  so you can then determine how much added sugar is needed.  Any calculator  claiming to account for these factors is disingenuously making wild guesses, as these cannot be known absent actual measurements.  Novice brewers would like to believe that there must be simple instructions to follow to obtain the desired result throughout the process.  Slightly less novice brewers see a maelstrom of complex scientific principles which all must be taken into account every step of the way.  Advanced brewers have intuited enough to triage all of this, finesse things by instinct, employee few hacks, and get the desired result every time.  The guys at Budweiser aren't reinventing the wheel every day, they follow well evolved procedures.  Like Dave and Kevin know 2 tablespoons a gallon works for both of them.  But you will have to discover what works for you, because you are not them doing things as they do.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on October 31, 2019, 02:10:41 PM
Now I know how to define "arrogant".
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Visor on October 31, 2019, 03:06:58 PM
   Perhaps David K along with a lot of other folks should do a refresher on the proper use of "their", "there" & "they're". And Rob, after rotator cuff surgeries on both shoulders I no longer huck heavy books at those damn kids on the lawn, I use a 12 ga. loaded with rock salt.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: BrewBama on October 31, 2019, 03:35:36 PM
   ... I use a 12 ga. loaded with rock salt.

I thought it but didn’t say it!  LOL


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Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: mainebrewer on October 31, 2019, 04:28:14 PM
I've been following this post for the past few days and finally decided to respond.

David K, there may be a good explanation for your negative attitude, I just can't imagine what it is.
In one of your earlier posts you said that "respect" had to be earned. I doubt if anyone here is looking for "respect", but a little civility would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: MNWayne on November 01, 2019, 01:18:50 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Slowbrew on November 01, 2019, 07:27:31 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: jeffy on November 01, 2019, 07:33:22 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: mainebrewer on November 01, 2019, 08:25:31 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or USMCruz from the MoreBeer forum?
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on November 02, 2019, 04:12:18 AM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on November 04, 2019, 03:33:00 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(

But how much of that knowledge would still be relevant?  Kinda lime Desiging Great Beers....once it was an amazing book loaded with lots of useful info. Now, 20 years later, only a bit of it still has anything to do with what and how we brew.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 04, 2019, 10:32:47 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(

But how much of that knowledge would still be relevant?  Kinda lime Desiging Great Beers....once it was an amazing book loaded with lots of useful info. Now, 20 years later, only a bit of it still has anything to do with what and how we brew.
When is Ray going to put out an updated version?
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 04, 2019, 10:54:57 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(

But how much of that knowledge would still be relevant?  Kinda lime Desiging Great Beers....once it was an amazing book loaded with lots of useful info. Now, 20 years later, only a bit of it still has anything to do with what and how we brew.
When is Ray going to put out an updated version?

I had heard it was a project, but the Cicerone thing blew up, and takes all of his time.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: dmtaylor on November 04, 2019, 11:01:17 PM
When is Ray going to put out an updated version?

I had heard it was a project, but the Cicerone thing blew up, and takes all of his time.

:( :( :(
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on November 05, 2019, 03:08:40 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(

But how much of that knowledge would still be relevant?  Kinda lime Desiging Great Beers....once it was an amazing book loaded with lots of useful info. Now, 20 years later, only a bit of it still has anything to do with what and how we brew.
When is Ray going to put out an updated version?

I had heard it was a project, but the Cicerone thing blew up, and takes all of his time.

Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 05, 2019, 06:39:49 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(

But how much of that knowledge would still be relevant?  Kinda lime Desiging Great Beers....once it was an amazing book loaded with lots of useful info. Now, 20 years later, only a bit of it still has anything to do with what and how we brew.
When is Ray going to put out an updated version?

I had heard it was a project, but the Cicerone thing blew up, and takes all of his time.

Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Maybe he could designate someone else to do it?
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: denny on November 05, 2019, 06:45:53 PM
David K. might find that no one is willing to respond to any other inquiries he might have.

Maybe.  Does anyone remember BlueFoxy?  We never stopped talking to him.  ;D

Paul
Blue Fox Icy.  Now there was an interesting forumite.  Did he ever post anything related to brewing?

Not that I recall. Sometimes I wonder where these guys went. Anyone remember Triple Freak or Mcruz from the MoreBeer forum?

I didn't know Blue Fox.  Triple Freak yes.

...And all that knowledge and history on the MoreBeer forum... gone forever.   :( :( :(  Northern Brewer forum is nearly as dead...  :(

But how much of that knowledge would still be relevant?  Kinda lime Desiging Great Beers....once it was an amazing book loaded with lots of useful info. Now, 20 years later, only a bit of it still has anything to do with what and how we brew.
When is Ray going to put out an updated version?

I had heard it was a project, but the Cicerone thing blew up, and takes all of his time.

Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Maybe he could designate someone else to do it?

Wouldn't be the same
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Robert on November 05, 2019, 08:43:10 PM
With the amount of information available today, from so many sources, and changing so quickly, I don't think a book like that would have the kind of impact Ray's originally had, or have anywhere near the longevity it did.  It's a different world in homebrewing now than it was in the 90s -- and we have Ray's book to thank for that in no small part.  It served its purpose well.  RIP DGB.
Title: Re: Bottling sugar
Post by: Richard on November 06, 2019, 03:45:05 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath.
Maybe he could designate someone else to do it?

I once tried to designate someone else to hold my breath, but he didn't last long.