Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: charlie on December 05, 2019, 06:27:54 pm

Title: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 05, 2019, 06:27:54 pm
My GF is a long time Coors Regular drinker, but I introduced her to Kolsh courtesy of Karbach Love Street, and she really liked it. So on Sept 15 I made 10 gal of Kolsh for her, and she sucked it down in 3 weeks and wanted more. And on Nov 17 I made another batch which she is currently working on.

This Kolsh recipe calls for 25 IBU of Hallertau hops at 60 minutes. There are no other hops in the recipe. Here comes the question:

Hallertau is described as a "mellow spicy hop with great flavor with citrus tones", but we all know that the flavor/aroma oils will steam distill out of the boil in 10 minutes or less. When we pitch Hallertau at 60 minutes then by 50 minutes "BLAM", all gone! So why use Hallertau? Why not Magnum or some other cheap high alpha hop?

Please enlighten me,
Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: blatz on December 05, 2019, 06:32:47 pm
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off. 

I make a lot of beers with only one hop addition and I can definitely taste and smell it and no doubt could make distinct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 05, 2019, 06:40:14 pm
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off.

I was trying to be polite, but I guess it didn't work.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on December 05, 2019, 06:43:02 pm


Coors Regular

The Silver Bullet is Unleaded?
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: blatz on December 05, 2019, 06:57:20 pm
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off.

I was trying to be polite, but I guess it didn't work.

Sorry you took it that way.  I said that tongue in cheek. I mean Bitburger has only one addition and it has plenty of aroma and flavor.

In my experience with German styles you can definitely tell a difference with single hop additions early in the boil.  Maybe other people can’t. 

Make it with magnum next time and if you can’t tell a difference then stick with that.  To me it makes a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on December 05, 2019, 06:57:42 pm
Seriously,  blatz may be right.   It has long been understood that wort/beer retains the flavor and aroma of hops no matter when they are added. FWH is only one case.  German beers today most often use only a single addition at around 50 minutes, and retain plenty of hop character.  Traditionally, with longer boils, there may have been multiple additions, but none later than 60 minutes.  Continental and British brewers have generally opined that late additions do nothing for aroma -- oils do not have sufficient time to become solubilized in the wort -- and are inefficient for bittering, while "bittering" hops with coarser flavor will taint the finished beer.  (DeClerck had a piece to say about this.)  Anyone may dispute these views, perhaps correctly, but if you want to know why German brewers use aromatic hops in the way they do, that is the root of it .  It also jibes with my experience.  I usually use only one addition, and get more "late" character than I do with actual late additions.  No doubt many variables in equipment and processes will lead to variable mileage.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: dmtaylor on December 06, 2019, 05:05:33 am
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off.

I was trying to be polite, but I guess it didn't work.

But he's right though!  I was going to say pretty much the same thing.  Hallertau gives a LOT of flavor and aroma even when added at the beginning of the boil.  It is simply the most noble of all noble hops.  It truly is THAT good.  Try it and you'll see.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 06, 2019, 11:55:01 am
Seriously,  blatz may be right.   It has long been understood that wort/beer retains the flavor and aroma of hops no matter when they are added. FWH is only one case.  German beers today most often use only a single addition at around 50 minutes, and retain plenty of hop character.  Traditionally, with longer boils, there may have been multiple additions, but none later than 60 minutes.  Continental and British brewers have generally opined that late additions do nothing for aroma -- oils do not have sufficient time to become solubilized in the wort -- and are inefficient for bittering, while "bittering" hops with coarser flavor will taint the finished beer.  (DeClerck had a piece to say about this.)  Anyone may dispute these views, perhaps correctly, but if you want to know why German brewers use aromatic hops in the way they do, that is the root of it .  It also jibes with my experience.  I usually use only one addition, and get more "late" character than I do with actual late additions.  No doubt many variables in equipment and processes will lead to variable mileage.

If you would say only one addition for some styles, like Heffeweißen, I might agree. As stated, I can't agree. I have seen a small Bavarian brewer put the aroma hops in with 15 minutes left in the boil. Small addition by American standards but it was done.

You can look at some German recipes in the Steve Holler presentation in the link. Some have 1 addition for some, up to 5 for Schönramer Pils.
https://www.homebrewcon.org/past-presentations/2008-presentations/


That brings me to a discussion about Noble Hops. They are low Alpha Acid, relatively low oil, but high in polyphenols from the bracts. There are flavors associated with the polyphenols. When YCH introduced the Cryo hops, Brewers said something was missing, it was the flavors from the polyphenols. Then they made the American Noble products which is made from the leftover green material.

Denny and Drew have brewed with American Noble hops. I haven't tasted their beers, but I did taste a series of beers Annie Johnson brewed while at YCH Hop and Brew School. I liked the Loral beer the best, as Loral was the most like it's German Noble cousins.

PU has always been said to use 3 additions. This article is a little old, I can ask Annie, if you want, what they did when she was there to brew.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Pilsner_Urquell
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 06, 2019, 05:14:03 pm
That brings me to a discussion about Noble Hops. They are low Alpha Acid, relatively low oil, but high in polyphenols from the bracts. There are flavors associated with the polyphenols.

Now that makes sense! Polyphenols are huge molecules that would not steam distill.

OK. I'll buy that explanation. Hallertau it is.

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on December 06, 2019, 09:35:04 pm
When YCH introduced the Cryo hops, Brewers said something was missing, it was the flavors from the polyphenols. Then they made the American Noble products which is made from the leftover green material.



Long before that, Miller did an enormous amount of research (the kind of thing only the biggest brewers can afford) and established the basis of understanding the flavor and aroma contributions of the green material in hops (and received a number of patents.)  They found that their beers made only with extracts providing bitterness and the familiar hydrocarbons were severely lacking in hop character, particularly "kettle hop" flavor and aroma  -- just what you get from a relatively large proportion of low alpha hops added early in the boil.  They identified glycosides as the missing elements, and developed methods for reintroducing these flavors into their products. (Just using whole noble hops would be too obvious it seems.)  These glycosides can be bound with phenols and terpenes, can be initially flavorless but release these hoppy flavors and aromas at various stages, right up to in the drinker's mouth,  and also can have important effects on foam.  Substituting a small amount of high alpha hops as a kettle addition rather than a larger amount of low alpha hops will have a similar effect as the problem they initially had with their extracts, and was rediscovered with Cryo Hops.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 07, 2019, 05:38:03 am
Now that explains it - after years of tweaking I have settled on FWH with Magnum and knockout addition of Hallertauer or similar lower alpha hop as the combination I favor in most of my pale lagers.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 18, 2019, 07:34:53 pm
I used Magnum for bittering for years, but quit because everything was coming up celery flavored!. In retrospect I think it was the Green Belt yeast more than the Magnum hops that was causing that.

I've been furiously using last year's hop purchase to get rid of it (and I have got 3 lbs to go!). This year's purchase will be Magnum, Centennial and Hallertau. That's it!

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: majorvices on December 19, 2019, 09:31:59 am
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 19, 2019, 07:53:03 pm
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.

I'm a tweaker, so I expect I'll end up doing that just to see what happens. Thanks.

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 20, 2019, 07:34:01 am
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.
US or German? I find US to have a little more aroma.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: majorvices on December 20, 2019, 07:38:02 am
Hmmm interesting. Probably usually Use them Interchangeably. I haven’t done a home brewed small batch kolsch in a very long time so I will try the single charge next time I brew one. When brewing commercially it doesn’t make a lot of sense to use you expensive hops as buttering/aroma only. I use a charge of Magnum and then an aroma hop at WP. Crystal has been my go to over the years but Hallertauer Mittlefruh, Madarina, Blanc, etc .... I’ve had fun playing with all of those as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 20, 2019, 04:52:32 pm
Hmmm interesting. Probably usually Use them Interchangeably. I haven’t done a home brewed small batch kolsch in a very long time so I will try the single charge next time I brew one. When brewing commercially it doesn’t make a lot of sense to use you expensive hops as buttering/aroma only. I use a charge of Magnum and then an aroma hop at WP. Crystal has been my go to over the years but Hallertauer Mittlefruh, Madarina, Blanc, etc .... I’ve had fun playing with all of those as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had a serious chuckcle reading this message. Buttering! lol

Don't you just loathe "AutoCorrect"? It needs a better name.

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 20, 2019, 04:57:54 pm
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.
US or German? I find US to have a little more aroma.

TBN had a podcast where Vinnie Cilurzo (of Russian River fame) was praising Magnum hops, and recommended that they do a SMASH using Magnum. He also touted Crystal hops. So I made two SMASHes with only Magnum and Crystal, and was totally unimpressed. To be perfectly fair I was a newbie then, and the nuance may have escaped me. But I have a pound of Crystal leaf in the freezer. Hmmmmm , .....

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on December 20, 2019, 05:02:37 pm



Don't you just loathe "AutoCorrect"? It needs a better name.

Charlie

I always call it autocorrupt.   My phone finally gave up and accepts that.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on December 20, 2019, 07:39:37 pm
I always call it autocorrupt.   My phone finally gave up and accepts that.

Sounds good! I'm gonna go with that.

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: chumley on December 28, 2019, 09:40:59 pm
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: denny on December 29, 2019, 08:18:04 am
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.

I could have written that for you..... ;D
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on December 29, 2019, 08:26:00 am
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.

I could have written that for you..... ;D
I love Cluster to death, but maybe not in a Kölsch?!  Then again I love Fuggle so what do I know, eh Denny?   (In fact I love the combination, I do a CAP I call Cluster Fuggle... but that's a different issue I should deal with I guess.  )
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 29, 2019, 09:42:33 am
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.

I could have written that for you..... ;D
I love Cluster to death, but maybe not in a Kölsch?!  Then again I love Fuggle so what do I know, eh Denny?   (In fact I love the combination, I do a CAP I call Cluster Fuggle... but that's a different issue I should deal with I guess.  )

I can see that working in a CAP.

YCH had a beer on tap at HomebrewCon that was called Cluster Fugget. Equal parts of Cluster, Fuggles, and Nugget (they gave packaged ounces away). I liked it! I plan to do a Pale Ale like that, as those 3 are in the freezer.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: denny on December 29, 2019, 09:43:49 am
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.

I could have written that for you..... ;D
I love Cluster to death, but maybe not in a Kölsch?!  Then again I love Fuggle so what do I know, eh Denny?   (In fact I love the combination, I do a CAP I call Cluster Fuggle... but that's a different issue I should deal with I guess.  )

I can see that working in a CAP.

YCH had a beer on tap at HomebrewCon that was called Cluster Fugget. Equal parts of Cluster, Fuggles, and Nugget (they gave packaged ounces away). I liked it! I plan to do a Pale Ale like that, as those 3 are in the freezer.

I made a beer dry hopped with the Cluster Fugget and loved it!
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on December 29, 2019, 11:21:29 am
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.

I could have written that for you..... ;D
I love Cluster to death, but maybe not in a Kölsch?!  Then again I love Fuggle so what do I know, eh Denny?   (In fact I love the combination, I do a CAP I call Cluster Fuggle... but that's a different issue I should deal with I guess.  )

I can see that working in a CAP.

YCH had a beer on tap at HomebrewCon that was called Cluster Fugget. Equal parts of Cluster, Fuggles, and Nugget (they gave packaged ounces away). I liked it! I plan to do a Pale Ale like that, as those 3 are in the freezer.

I made a beer dry hopped with the Cluster Fugget and loved it!
Wow, Denny liked something with Fuggles in it, and after having a couple intended brewday put off till today, I decided I'd better do a sort of vitality starter with the slurry I'd had waiting to repitch.  You never know what might happen in this world.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: denny on December 29, 2019, 11:26:20 am
Late to the party, but the greatest all-time bittering hop is without question Clusters.

This really shouldn't be a conversation.

I could have written that for you..... ;D
I love Cluster to death, but maybe not in a Kölsch?!  Then again I love Fuggle so what do I know, eh Denny?   (In fact I love the combination, I do a CAP I call Cluster Fuggle... but that's a different issue I should deal with I guess.  )

I can see that working in a CAP.

YCH had a beer on tap at HomebrewCon that was called Cluster Fugget. Equal parts of Cluster, Fuggles, and Nugget (they gave packaged ounces away). I liked it! I plan to do a Pale Ale like that, as those 3 are in the freezer.

I made a beer dry hopped with the Cluster Fugget and loved it!
Wow, Denny liked something with Fuggles in it, and after having a couple intended brewday put off till today, I decided I'd better do a sort of vitality starter with the slurry I'd had waiting to repitch.  You never know what might happen in this world.

 :D. The blend aucessfully covered up what I dislike about Fuggles.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on January 06, 2020, 06:03:55 pm
UPDATE: We may not have to worry about it. Hops Direct has been unable to get German Hallertau. They're still trying, but it's not looking good.

I looked at the "Substitutions" pages, and what I see is all garbage.

I brewed the GF her third 10 gal batch of Kolsh yesterday and used the last of my real Hallertau. So next time it's going to be Magnum. Whatcha wanna bet she can't tell the diff? lol

Charlie
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: blatz on January 06, 2020, 06:49:21 pm
The newest crop of German hops usually doesn’t hit the sites until mid/late first quarter of the following year.  You’ll prob be able to get them soon at most of the popular hop shops.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Robert on January 06, 2020, 06:49:45 pm
UPDATE: We may not have to worry about it. Hops Direct has been unable to get German Hallertau. They're still trying, but it's not looking good.

I looked at the "Substitutions" pages, and what I see is all garbage.

I brewed the GF her third 10 gal batch of Kolsh yesterday and used the last of my real Hallertau. So next time it's going to be Magnum. Whatcha wanna bet she can't tell the diff? lol

Charlie
Hallertau Tradition is a decent substitute, Charlie.  That's what it was bred for, and it's closer to the mark than any other replacement I know of.  I see Hops Direct has 2018 pellets.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Jason on January 11, 2020, 09:48:56 pm
I find Jarrylo to be a great hop for Kolsch. Just high enough AAU for bittering and a nice noble-ish tone for the late addition.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: fredthecat on February 09, 2020, 12:43:34 pm
i started using spalt a long time ago as i read altbier used only spalts for when i made an altbier. i found they hit the spot, and i've been using them ever since. i had a good experience with tettnang in a pale lager once. saaz is great.

spalt is very indistinct in a way, really just kind of hides and is mellow but provides good bitterness, not too spicy/herby i find.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 15, 2020, 06:35:57 am


Coors Regular

The Silver Bullet is Unleaded?

No...it's kerosene (Jet-A).
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c2/4f/e8/c24fe82d04c4f7f181084ca616f4b06d.jpg)
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: skyler on April 16, 2020, 10:27:45 pm

 :D. The blend aucessfully covered up what I dislike about Fuggles.

What, you don't like the black truffle/sweaty armpit aroma of fuggles? Seriously, I like Styrian Goldings fine, but UK or US-grown fuggles are the literal worst.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: fredthecat on April 17, 2020, 09:48:11 pm
Lol think I already said here at some point, but yup. I have never had a good experience with fuggles, can't remember if they were UK or US. I won't even risk using them again.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: charlie on October 26, 2020, 07:25:51 pm
I'm about to have the definitive answer about why to use Hallertau: Tomorrow I'm brewing (yet another) APA using 50% Golden Promise, 34% Rye and 16% base malt. This is a recipe I have made many times with many variations (and up to 50% rye with no problems), only this time I'm going to use 100g (3 oz and a bit) of Hallertau for bittering. If there is a significant effect from the phenols I'm sure that it will show up in this brew!

I'll post an update in a couple of weeks when I get it in the glass.

Charlie (has his own sticky!)
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: denny on October 27, 2020, 08:43:38 am
I'm about to have the definitive answer about why to use Hallertau: Tomorrow I'm brewing (yet another) APA using 50% Golden Promise, 34% Rye and 16% base malt. This is a recipe I have made many times with many variations (and up to 50% rye with no problems), only this time I'm going to use 100g (3 oz and a bit) of Hallertau for bittering. If there is a significant effect from the phenols I'm sure that it will show up in this brew!

I'll post an update in a couple of weeks when I get it in the glass.

Charlie (has his own sticky!)

Check out the seminar on survivables from Yakima Chief virtual harvest, or the Scott Janish interviews we did on The Brew Files.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Village Taphouse on October 27, 2020, 04:00:21 pm
This is an interesting topic and I didn't see it when it was new.  I agree that using a hop at the start of the boil doesn't mean that ALL of its character is gone.  I also make a lot of beers where there is a hop addition at the start of the boil and that's it.  When I do that, I typically use something noble as opposed to Magnum.  Would I be able to tell the difference between the two?  Not sure.  I tend to use Magnum when I know that more hops will be added later... which are usually noble.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: Qzm on December 22, 2020, 06:02:18 am
Less relevant for a mild beer like kolsh, but I'll note that beta acid content is a consideration for aged beers (while alpha acids are busy degrading out of bittertown, the betas begin to better bitter the brew).

So I think the summary thus far is that hops is more than AA and oils, and a serious brewer should get educated on the other components. And that we all want to know whether the princess noticed the pea :P.
Title: Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
Post by: coolman26 on January 12, 2022, 06:47:23 pm
I’m with Major on this. I’m late to the party, but I’ll still chime in. Bitter with Magnum and finish with Crystal. I did one bittered with Perle and finished with Spalt that I liked. Generally the bitter can change. I almost always finish with Crystal @ 10min. Always have used Giga021 for my yeast. Guess I’ll have to keep that going since they are no longer.