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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: samaral on January 21, 2020, 09:44:25 PM

Title: BRY 97
Post by: samaral on January 21, 2020, 09:44:25 PM
Thinking about using this yeast in a Black IPA. I've never used it before. Anyone have experience with this yeast?
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: dmtaylor on January 21, 2020, 10:13:30 PM
It's good, and it's very laggy.  Expect a good 2-3 days after pitching before it really begins to take off.  From that point it works normally and performs well.  It has similar results to US-05 with slightly lower attenuation.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 21, 2020, 10:50:27 PM
I have also experienced the same lag time with Bry 97. Otherwise, I’ve had good results.

However, if I remember correctly, Robert propagated it up (aka made a starter) and he reported less lag time.


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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Robert on January 21, 2020, 11:13:39 PM
I have also experienced the same lag time with Bry 97. Otherwise, I’ve had good results.

However, if I remember correctly, Robert propagated it up (aka made a starter) and he reported less lag time.


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Yes.  I'd nearly forgotten that, but I found my records from that batch.  It seems the first time I checked on it was 6 hours after pitching and it was already active.  Got 80% AA in 5 days. 
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 21, 2020, 11:32:57 PM
For some reason, I've never noticed anything other than a normal lag.  Guess I'll pay more attention next time.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: tommymorris on January 22, 2020, 12:45:09 AM
My current batch had a 1” krausen in 18 hours.  My experience is that Bry-97 doesn’t like to be cold. I had it flocculate once before starting to ferment when the temp dropped to 58-59F. I make sure the temp is 65-66F and it does fine.

Note: I pitch 1 pack into 2.7ish gallons of wort.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: dmtaylor on January 22, 2020, 12:47:37 AM
Note: I pitch 1 pack into 2.7ish gallons of wort.

I'm sure that helps.  That's a significant overpitch, assuming a standard OG of less than say 1.065.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: samaral on January 22, 2020, 12:49:49 AM
Thanks everyone that's some good info. I don't think I will make a starter but I was thinking of fermenting around 68. Anyone use at that temp?
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Robert on January 22, 2020, 12:53:11 AM
My batch with the starter was pitched at 64°F and peak temperature in the ferment (not ambient) was 69°F at 72 hours.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: narvin on January 23, 2020, 03:19:26 AM
It's also got the potential for biotransformation if you're into that...

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf
Title: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 24, 2020, 02:02:12 PM
Note: I pitch 1 pack into 2.7ish gallons of wort.

I'm sure that helps.  That's a significant overpitch, assuming a standard OG of less than say 1.065.

This comment triggered some thought in me. The lengthy lag I have experienced with this yeast has always been at ~.5 grams per liter wort (11 grams in 5.5 US gallons).

Lately, I have been using ~1 gram dry yeast per liter wort (2 packs per 5.5 gallon) ...but haven’t used BRY97 since I began this.

While that can be considered a significant overpitch according to some, one mfr recommends .5 - .8 grams per liter in ales and .8 - 1.2 grams per liter in lager. ...which is where I got the idea. BRY97’s mfr recommends “50 - 100g/hL to achieve a minimum of 2.5 - 5 million cells/mL” (aka .5 - 1 gram per liter wort).

I have just been rounding to the whole pack in both Ale and Lager which is ~.2 grams per liter overpitch for Ale according to one mfr but simply at the higher end of the pitch rate range for this mfr.

I figure the extra couple bucks invested in the second pack is worth the great starts, fast finishes, and spot on AA I have been generally getting since I began the practice. I have had one instance where MJ M54 stopped higher than I expected even at the 1 gram per liter rate. 

Mangrove Jack. Imagine that.

This slight ‘overpitch’ (or simply pitching at the higher end of the range) may be why both Tommy and Robert didn’t experience the lag.

As Lallemand puts it, “Lag phase, total fermentation time, attenuation and flavor are dependent on pitch rate, yeast handling, fermentation temperature and nutritional quality of the wort.”

I think I’ll try it again at 1 gram per liter at 66*F +/- 2* F.


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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Robert on January 24, 2020, 02:31:47 PM
That will be interesting to hear about, BrewBama!  I had always heard that it was laggy in the first generation, but not repitches.  So I thought putting it through a couple of starter steps might get it over its lagginess before it got into my main batch.  But it makes sense that it might just all come down to pitch rate.  Repitching, we're usually pitching at a higher rate.  A big starter or an extra pack of dry yeast would accomplish the same thing.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: dmtaylor on January 24, 2020, 02:52:19 PM
Excellent discussion!  I agree on a lot of points.

One thing I'd like to point out -- not sure if this is an item of confusion or contention, or just my imagination -- I think fermentation TEMPERATURE is the essential variable on pitch rate, as opposed to whether a "lager" yeast or "ale" yeast is being used.  For instance, if I want to use US-05 down at 55 F, I'm going to double my pitch rate, and conversely if I feel like using S-189 or W-34/70 or whatever "lager" yeast you can think of but warmer at like 65 F well then I only need to use half as much as for a "normal lager".  In other words, ANY typical dried yeast strain of the two main species Sacch. cerev. or Sacch. past. might need about 0.25 g/L at 65 F, or 0.5 g/L at 50-55 F, regardless of most other factors, except higher gravity, etc.

Get what I mean?  If it matters -- maybe ya'll already agreed with me anyway.  :)

And then maybe since we know BRY-97 tends to be laggy, well maybe we really should be doubling the standard rates, to say 0.5 g/L for warm ferms or up to 1.0-1.5 g/L for cool ferms.  So ultimately, I think we might all be on the same page... except that I still think we all tend to overpitch all dried yeasts (I have a previous lengthy thread out there on this... https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=27438.0).  So for this yeast, I think an "over-pitch" is just what the doctor ordered, for this particular strain, due to its unique lagginess.

EDIT: I was off on a few numbers, halved them now.  And added a link to that old lengthy thread on overpitching.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 24, 2020, 02:55:07 PM
How does pitching more yeast decrease lag time?
Title: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 24, 2020, 04:04:10 PM
How does pitching more yeast decrease lag time?

I don’t know the how. I shot the mfr a note to ask why they wrote that statement.

In the mean time I found this statement (below) but the writer offers no explanation.

“The pitching rate, too, plays a significant role in the effectiveness and length of the lag phase. Overpitching can decrease the lag phase, but, because each cell grows the same number of new cells, the result may be too many old, worn-out cells at the end of fermentation. This can lead to off- flavors and low viability if this yeast is subsequently repitched.” https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/MkKGQWjuiT/

...and this: “The shortest lag phase and time to the first division were obtained with largest inocula and with the youngest inoculated parent cells.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21511143/

Though not with BRY97, I have seen evidence on my Tilt that shows very short lag after pitching 2 vs 1 packs.

This Brülosophy experiment also showed shorter lag with more 34/70 vs longer lag with less:

A “day later, the overpitched beer was in full-swing as the underpitched batch appeared as though little was going on.” ...”the underpitched batch took nearly 2 days longer to show signs of active fermentation compared to the overpitched batch, which may be viewed by some as reason enough to pitch more yeast“

http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/07/yeast-pitch-rate-pt-5-underpitch-vs-overpitch-in-a-lager-exbeeriment-results/

Hopefully, the mfr can explain the how all this works. Maybe their explanation will satiate our curiosity.

Edit: I speculate that since the yeast cell count is doubled in the higher pitch rate, they use up the components in the wort that trigger the transition from lag to growth at a higher rate therefore reducing the lag time.

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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: narvin on January 24, 2020, 04:14:49 PM
I've never worried about lag time and haven't really seen any correlation with a short lag time making better beer. I got excellent attenuation and no off flavors when I used BRY-97 recently at a rate of 11 g / 5 gal.  I did rehydrate, which should increase the viable yeast count over just sprinkling the yeast on the wort.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 24, 2020, 04:19:19 PM
I think it's time for me to hit my contacts at Wyeast and Lallemand and get to the bottom of this.  It makes no sense to me, but that's not saying much.
Title: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 24, 2020, 04:38:13 PM
I think it's time for me to hit my contacts at Wyeast and Lallemand and get to the bottom of this.  It makes no sense to me, but that's not saying much.

Great idea!

Edit/followup:  Brian from Lallemand gave me a call. He said the lag I’m seeing at 36 - 48 hrs for one pack of BRY97 is too much. He thinks it’s more a matter of the age and how the yeast was handled. He says my method of overcoming this long lag by pitching two packs would work because it’s putting ~ one pack worth of good yeast in the wort to allow it to go thru it’s normal life cycle within a reasonable time. According to Brian, one pack of badly handled yeast has enough DOA cells that it creates this long lag.

It’ll be interesting to hear from Denny’s folks to compare their explanation with Brian’s.

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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: tommymorris on January 24, 2020, 09:00:18 PM
I think it's time for me to hit my contacts at Wyeast and Lallemand and get to the bottom of this.  It makes no sense to me, but that's not saying much.

Great idea!

Edit/followup:  Brian from Lallemand gave me a call. He said the lag I’m seeing at 36 - 48 hrs for one pack of BRY97 is too much. He thinks it’s more a matter of the age and how the yeast was handled. He says my method of overcoming this long lag by pitching two packs would work because it’s putting ~ one pack worth of good yeast in the wort to allow it to go thru it’s normal life cycle within a reasonable time. According to Brian, one pack of badly handled yeast has enough DOA cells that it creates this long lag.

It’ll be interesting to hear from Denny’s folks to compare their explanation with Brian’s.

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My results were with a pack that expires in February.

In reality I over pitch everything because I brew 2.5 gallon batches and don’t bother splitting packs of dry yeast.

There was a comment above about lag time not being a problem. That is my experience also. I get nervous when lag times are long but long lag times usually don’t correlate with bad batches.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 24, 2020, 10:23:06 PM
I think it's time for me to hit my contacts at Wyeast and Lallemand and get to the bottom of this.  It makes no sense to me, but that's not saying much.

Great idea!

Edit/followup:  Brian from Lallemand gave me a call. He said the lag I’m seeing at 36 - 48 hrs for one pack of BRY97 is too much. He thinks it’s more a matter of the age and how the yeast was handled. He says my method of overcoming this long lag by pitching two packs would work because it’s putting ~ one pack worth of good yeast in the wort to allow it to go thru it’s normal life cycle within a reasonable time. According to Brian, one pack of badly handled yeast has enough DOA cells that it creates this long lag.

It’ll be interesting to hear from Denny’s folks to compare their explanation with Brian’s.

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My results were with a pack that expires in February.

In reality I over pitch everything because I brew 2.5 gallon batches and don’t bother splitting packs of dry yeast.

There was a comment above about lag time not being a problem. That is my experience also. I get nervous when lag times are long but long lag times usually don’t correlate with bad batches.

I don't even think about lag time til it gets to 72 hours.
Title: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 26, 2020, 01:37:16 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 27, 2020, 03:04:38 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I'm a pretty relaxed brewer these days.  I don't stress over things like that like I used to.  I tell myself "it's only beer".
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Visor on January 27, 2020, 04:43:23 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I'm a pretty relaxed brewer these days.  I don't stress over things like that like I used to.  I tell myself "it's only beer".

   There you go blaspheming again Denny ;).
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 27, 2020, 04:52:34 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I'm a pretty relaxed brewer these days.  I don't stress over things like that like I used to.  I tell myself "it's only beer".

True. It’s just beer. But if I can be done two or three days sooner by simple pitch rate I don’t see a drawback.


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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 27, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I'm a pretty relaxed brewer these days.  I don't stress over things like that like I used to.  I tell myself "it's only beer".

True. It’s just beer. But if I can be done two or three days sooner by simple pitch rate I don’t see a drawback.


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Sure, we each have our own ways of doing things. It's all good.  I just don't care if it's a few days sooner.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: EHall on January 27, 2020, 07:58:59 PM
"it's only beer"
its only a rash
its only cancer
its only death
 :P
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: narvin on January 27, 2020, 08:12:48 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I don't disagree... slower fermentations are more likely to finish with a higher FG for me.  It's just that in the case of dry yeast I don't see any correlation between lag time and the speed of the rest of fermentation.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on January 27, 2020, 08:22:06 PM
"it's only beer"
its only a rash
its only cancer
its only death
 :P

fortunately, beer is not as serious as any of those
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 27, 2020, 09:33:46 PM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I don't disagree... slower fermentations are more likely to finish with a higher FG for me.  It's just that in the case of dry yeast I don't see any correlation between lag time and the speed of the rest of fermentation.

Maybe one of the groups who conduct beer experiments could brew up a 10 gal batch, split it into two fermenters, pitch one pack of BRY97 into one and two packs into the other and document the results with TILT and verifying FG with good old fashioned finishing hydrometers.

I plan to pitch one pack in one 5 gal batch and two in another and document my results but I’m not equipped to do a split of the same wort.


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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: dmtaylor on January 27, 2020, 10:16:38 PM
Maybe one of the groups who conduct beer experiments could brew up a 10 gal batch, split it into two fermenters, pitch one pack of BRY97 into one and two packs into the other and document the results with TILT and verifying FG with good old fashioned finishing hydrometers.

I plan to pitch one pack in one 5 gal batch and two in another and document my results but I’m not equipped to do a split of the same wort.

What if you split one 5 gal batch into two 2.5 gal batches, and used a 1/2 pack in one, and 1 whole pack in another.  You could even just bottle 2 or 3 of each, then combine and keg the remainder, without much fuss.

I say "you", but what I really mean is that *anybody* who is interested could try this experiment.  If anyone does, please report back with results.  :)
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: narvin on January 29, 2020, 04:07:54 AM
Interesting. I like to be at least halfway complete with fermentation in 72 hrs.

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I don't disagree... slower fermentations are more likely to finish with a higher FG for me.  It's just that in the case of dry yeast I don't see any correlation between lag time and the speed of the rest of fermentation.

Maybe one of the groups who conduct beer experiments could brew up a 10 gal batch, split it into two fermenters, pitch one pack of BRY97 into one and two packs into the other and document the results with TILT and verifying FG with good old fashioned finishing hydrometers.

I plan to pitch one pack in one 5 gal batch and two in another and document my results but I’m not equipped to do a split of the same wort.


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I think sensory analysis should also be a factor.  Pitching rate affects flavor as well as attenuation.

For what it's worth this batch went from around 1.060 to 1.009.  mashed at 152.  If anything I wanted a higher FG but I'm actually very happy with the body.
Title: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on January 31, 2020, 12:42:07 AM
Absolutely. The only thing that really matters is the results.

FWIW: I pitched S-04 in my Olde Dog ESB at 11:30. I am seeing activity now. I anticipate it’ll be full on Gatling gun soon.

Edit: S-04 https://youtu.be/6JItYcfj5VM

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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: jFrode on February 01, 2020, 02:05:39 AM
What is lag time? I guess we often define it as the time when we do not see something happening visually.  That does not mean that the yeast is not doing anything. From what I understand it uses the time to take up nutrients. I am still a proponent of that making a yeast starter can be appropriate even with dry yeast. Not for cost savings, but I have at least some anecdotal examples with Bry-97 that it takes off really fast and strong from the starter. My method of starter is super simple. One package of dry yeast into 4 liters of boiled dme at apx 1.035. Just let it do it’s thing. It might foam over if not on a stir plate. I put the stir plate on a minimum setting. Two days and that’s it. It settles fairly quick so I can decant off most of it. Besides that I think Denny is right. Given the time yeast multiplies it should be a matter of 3-7 hours before 1 package almost equalizes 2 packages. I am wondering if it is the double amount of nutrients per yeast cell so to speak that makes it take longer. Just a thought. Chris White did a podcast on BeerSmith that explained the different phases of the yeasts “lifespan” after pitching. Anyhow, when you get good beer with Bry-97, I think the yeast really contributes to that. My favorite dry strain.


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Title: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on February 01, 2020, 03:07:43 PM
Using the Tilt hydrometer, I began to experience what I think you’re describing: ‘blips’ in the log (possibly indicating yeast multiplication activity) without visual airlock activity (indicating CO2 production) at both the beginning and end of fermentation.

Seeing that, I began to define ‘lag time’ as the straight line before the first ‘blip’ or two. My observation does not rely on airlock activity.

I’ve noticed that if I pitch at the higher end of the mfr suggested rate, I see a shorter ‘lag time’ (straight line on the log as I’ve described it above) than if I pitch at a lower rate. It seems others have noted the same thing I have (as cited above).

I also notice a faster fermentation and better AA. Of course, this is anecdotal based on my experience. I used to complain that 34/70 would take 10-14 days to plod along to finish. Now, I am getting 5-7 days however, I am using it just slightly higher (60*F) than the recommended temp range (53-59*F) which probably doesn’t hurt the speed.

I guess I fall into the camp Brülosophy describes in the article I linked to: “Despite the fact tasters were unable to reliably distinguish between the underpitched and overpitched beers, there were some differences. For example, the underpitched batch took nearly 2 days longer to show signs of active fermentation compared to the overpitched batch, which may be viewed by some as reason enough to pitch more yeast...”

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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on March 21, 2020, 07:05:20 PM
Well, I pitched 1 gram per liter Bry97 into  1.057 wort @ 62*F and it is rocking and rolling at 11 hrs lag time.

Not sure if that means anything ...other than Mother Nature is still at work in N AL.


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Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on March 21, 2020, 07:25:41 PM
Well, I pitched 1 gram per liter Bry97 into  1.057 wort @ 62*F and it is rocking and rolling at 11 hrs lag time.

Not sure if that means anything ...other than Mother Nature is still at work in N AL.


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Sounds right.  I know people are reporting long lags with it, but I don't recall seeing that myself.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2020, 02:46:55 AM
I've got a BRY-97 batch going right now.  Took about 30 hours to start up but she's vigorous, krausen just does not fall even after I believe it's finished.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 22, 2020, 02:55:44 AM
I've got a BRY-97 batch going right now.  Took about 30 hours to start up but she's vigorous, krausen just does not fall even after I believe it's finished.

Thanks for the info. Using this tomorrow in an ipa. What temp did you run it at? I was thinking upper 60s
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: dmtaylor on March 22, 2020, 02:57:54 PM
I'm at a constant 68 F for the past 7 days.  I'll test and taste tonight.  Pretty sure it's done.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 23, 2020, 02:10:47 PM
I've got a BRY-97 batch going right now.  Took about 30 hours to start up but she's vigorous, krausen just does not fall even after I believe it's finished.

Thanks for the info. Using this tomorrow in an ipa. What temp did you run it at? I was thinking upper 60s

Activity within 18 hours @ 66F. Two month expired packet.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on March 23, 2020, 02:14:24 PM
I've got a BRY-97 batch going right now.  Took about 30 hours to start up but she's vigorous, krausen just does not fall even after I believe it's finished.

Thanks for the info. Using this tomorrow in an ipa. What temp did you run it at? I was thinking upper 60s

Activity within 18 hours @ 66F. Two month expired packet.

Pretty much my experience too
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 30, 2020, 06:06:56 PM
Really happy with the performance of this yeast for my first use. I could see using this instead of US-05 moving forward.

Gravity down from 1.063 to 1.011 in 7 days which is higher attenuation than I expected. Krausen has dropped and I added dry hops yesterday. After 5 days I will be cold crashing for a couple more days then packaging.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: denny on March 30, 2020, 06:35:03 PM
Really happy with the performance of this yeast for my first use. I could see using this instead of US-05 moving forward.

Gravity down from 1.063 to 1.011 in 7 days which is higher attenuation than I expected. Krausen has dropped and I added dry hops yesterday. After 5 days I will be cold crashing for a couple more days then packaging.

I gave up on 05 a long time ago, as yoou know.  It was great to rediscover BRY97 as a replacement.
Title: Re: BRY 97
Post by: BrewBama on March 30, 2020, 07:32:11 PM
+1. I got 78% AA on the APA in post #35 (above).  It’s kegged and cold conditioning/carbonating now.

I may sneak a taste to see how we’re coming along. You know, for research


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