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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: TXFlyGuy on February 19, 2020, 10:02:53 PM

Title: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 19, 2020, 10:02:53 PM
Anyone used this, K-97?
We will be brewing a Kolsch and want the best yeast.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on February 19, 2020, 10:35:57 PM
I just used K-97.  Fermentation took 13 days to reach final gravity at the relatively low average temperature for this yeast of 53 F.  Bottled 11 days ago.  Popped the first bottle 2 days ago.  It came out great, I'm very happy with it.  There is a slight haze -- the yeast needs extra time and/or gelatin to help it settle out.  I used gelatin in the primary but honestly it wasn't as effective as I had hoped, not sure why.  Still tastes a little yeasty / bready from the yeast.  But other than that it is very clean tasting, zero diacetyl or sulfur, and no real noticeable fruitiness, at least when fermented real low as I did at 53 F.  It did NOT turn out with an odd tartness as I have experienced with many other dried yeasts; yet on the other hand, I mashed relatively high at 5.5 and did not adjust pH in the kettle either, so that may or may not be part of my satisfaction.  Note: I have theorized that this yeast is nearly equivalent to Wyeast 1007, and based on my experience with both, albeit separated by a few years, the K-97 seems to have performed VERY similarly to the 1007.  So yes I still think these two are very closely related to where they could be considered “equivalents”.  YMMV.

Cheers, hope you try it and enjoy it as I have.  I will not hesitate to use it again in the future for beers that I want to be clean, bready, and lager-like.  Potential drawbacks are not much different from Wyeast 1007 or 2565 -- not the quickest flocculation, hazy, some yeasty breadiness, at least for the first couple months, after which maybe most of that should settle out.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 19, 2020, 11:19:12 PM
I just used K-97.  Fermentation took 13 days to reach final gravity at the relatively low average temperature for this yeast of 53 F.  Bottled 11 days ago.  Popped the first bottle 2 days ago.  It came out great, I'm very happy with it.  There is a slight haze -- the yeast needs extra time and/or gelatin to help it settle out.  I used gelatin in the primary but honestly it wasn't as effective as I had hoped, not sure why.  Still tastes a little yeasty / bready from the yeast.  But other than that it is very clean tasting, zero diacetyl or sulfur, and no real noticeable fruitiness, at least when fermented real low as I did at 53 F.  It did NOT turn out with an odd tartness as I have experienced with many other dried yeasts; yet on the other hand, I mashed relatively high at 5.5 and did not adjust pH in the kettle either, so that may or may not be part of my satisfaction.  Note: I have theorized that this yeast is nearly equivalent to Wyeast 1007, and based on my experience with both, albeit separated by a few years, the K-97 seems to have performed VERY similarly to the 1007.  So yes I still think these two are very closely related to where they could be considered “equivalents”.  YMMV.

Cheers, hope you try it and enjoy it as I have.  I will not hesitate to use it again in the future for beers that I want to be clean, bready, and lager-like.  Potential drawbacks are not much different from Wyeast 1007 or 2565 -- not the quickest flocculation, hazy, some yeasty breadiness, at least for the first couple months, after which maybe most of that should settle out.

Our plan is to brew a Kolsch. We know that this yeast does not flocculate well, or rapidly. As a Kolsch is bright and clear, they suggested filtration, which we will do.
Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: PORTERHAUS on February 20, 2020, 02:23:06 PM
I have used K-97 a few times and I like it as well. I have only used it near 60* but I would not be afraid to use it warmer for a Kolsch maybe to get a bit more delicate fruit notes for the style. Other than that it is a clean, nice yeast.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on February 20, 2020, 02:25:38 PM
I’ve also used it. My experience mirrors Porterhouse’s. I have a cpl packs I plan to use soon.


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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: denny on February 20, 2020, 03:15:39 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 20, 2020, 03:29:17 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: denny on February 20, 2020, 03:46:13 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it

I don't have a problem with K97 itself.  It just doesn't make a beer that tastes like kolsch to me.  Disclaimer: I have not tried every kolsch.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 20, 2020, 04:11:40 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it

I don't have a problem with K97 itself.  It just doesn't make a beer that tastes like kolsch to me.  Disclaimer: I have not tried every kolsch.

Have you (or anyone) brewed two batches, using K-97 in one, and W-2565 in the other? That would be the best way to compare.
I have zero experience with either of these, but lot's of experience with Wyeast in general.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: PORTERHAUS on February 20, 2020, 04:26:30 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it

I don't have a problem with K97 itself.  It just doesn't make a beer that tastes like kolsch to me.  Disclaimer: I have not tried every kolsch.

Have you (or anyone) brewed two batches, using K-97 in one, and W-2565 in the other? That would be the best way to compare.
I have zero experience with either of these, but lot's of experience with Wyeast in general.

I also agree WY2565 is a great Kolsch yeast. I prefer it over the White Labs. I haven't done side by side with K-97 and 2565, but I have done side by side with White Labs and K-97...I preferred the k-97...but there are two White Labs Kolsch yeast, not sure which it was. Doesn't mean it's more Kolsch or better, but I did like the K-97 more for that beer. Omega has an awesome Kolsch yeast, I think it's more like 2565...it made the best Kolsch I ever made, but also one of the best beers I ever put out.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on February 20, 2020, 04:31:52 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it

I don't have a problem with K97 itself.  It just doesn't make a beer that tastes like kolsch to me.  Disclaimer: I have not tried every kolsch.

I agree.  It doesn't taste like a Kolsch.  Very tasty but not a Kolsch.  In fact, I've even decided to recategorize mine with K-97 as an American Blonde Ale instead, for purposes of entering into BJCP comps or whatever.  Just a clean, refreshing, lager-like ale.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: tommymorris on February 20, 2020, 04:56:16 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it

I don't have a problem with K97 itself.  It just doesn't make a beer that tastes like kolsch to me.  Disclaimer: I have not tried every kolsch.

I agree.  It doesn't taste like a Kolsch.  Very tasty but not a Kolsch.  In fact, I've even decided to recategorize mine with K-97 as an American Blonde Ale instead, for purposes of entering into BJCP comps or whatever.  Just a clean, refreshing, lager-like ale.
In that case, is there any advantage over 34/70 or S-189 lager yeast?
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 20, 2020, 04:56:41 PM
August of 2018 we tried a boatload of Kölsch in Cologne. Some are fruity, Früh, some have noble Hop aroma (Malzmüle), some are malty (Peters), some don't have much going on besides easy to drink (Sion).

Isn't K-97 closely related to WY-1007? Dmtaylor shows that on his speadsheet. 1007 is from Zum Uerige, a very clean yeast.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: denny on February 20, 2020, 04:58:50 PM
IMO, if you want the best yeast for kolsch, it's WY2565

I agree. I have used K97 and have not had the best experience with it though I have admitted not tried a kolsch with it. May have to revisit it

I don't have a problem with K97 itself.  It just doesn't make a beer that tastes like kolsch to me.  Disclaimer: I have not tried every kolsch.

Have you (or anyone) brewed two batches, using K-97 in one, and W-2565 in the other? That would be the best way to compare.
I have zero experience with either of these, but lot's of experience with Wyeast in general.

I have used each in separate batches.  K97 doesn't have the distinctive flavor I associate with kolsch.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: denny on February 20, 2020, 05:00:34 PM
August of 2018 we tried a boatload of Kölsch in Cologne. Some are fruity, Früh, some have noble Hop aroma (Malzmüle), some are malty (Peters), some don't have much going on besides easy to drink (Sion).

Isn't K-97 closely related to WY-1007? Dmtaylor shows that on his speadsheet. 1007 is from Zum Uerige, a very clean yeast.

Yes, reportedly K97 has the same heritage as 1007...an alt yeast.  You were who I had in mind when I said I haven't tried a lot of kolsch in situ.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Visor on February 20, 2020, 05:08:13 PM
  Regarding your disappointment with the gelatin you used in the primary Dave, I've never seen any benefit when using gelatin at room or cellar temperatures. I dose my beers with gelatin just before they go into the fridge to cold crash and normally have good results.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on February 20, 2020, 06:19:14 PM
I agree.  It doesn't taste like a Kolsch.  Very tasty but not a Kolsch.  In fact, I've even decided to recategorize mine with K-97 as an American Blonde Ale instead, for purposes of entering into BJCP comps or whatever.  Just a clean, refreshing, lager-like ale.
In that case, is there any advantage over 34/70 or S-189 lager yeast?

No "advantage".  It's just a lot different.  More bready.  If you want bready character, there are no better yeasts I know of than K-97 and 1007.

  Regarding your disappointment with the gelatin you used in the primary Dave, I've never seen any benefit when using gelatin at room or cellar temperatures. I dose my beers with gelatin just before they go into the fridge to cold crash and normally have good results.

Perhaps I should move more bottles into the refrigerator then.  Regardless, I think it's looking a lot more clear now anyway compared to the day I bottled.  Thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on February 20, 2020, 06:42:06 PM
...

Isn't K-97 closely related to WY-1007? Dmtaylor shows that on his speadsheet. 1007 is from Zum Uerige, a very clean yeast.

Yes, reportedly K97 has the same heritage as 1007...an alt yeast.  ...

I am planning to use the K-97 in my fridge for a Zum Uerige style Altbier.


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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 20, 2020, 08:05:43 PM
I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 21, 2020, 12:06:23 AM
I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on February 21, 2020, 12:29:06 AM
I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

Auto corrupt makes me think bitter vs please. Though I am sure it is pleasingly bitter.


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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 21, 2020, 01:27:57 AM
I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

Auto corrupt makes me think bitter vs please. Though I am sure it is pleasingly bitter.


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I think that was just me.

As my friend Gunter, who grew up in Duesseldorf used to say, "Zum Uerige is intensely bitter, but after 5 or 6 you don't notice".
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 21, 2020, 01:30:06 AM
I like the idea of trying K-97 in a Zum Uerige homage.  That will go on my list for sure - so unique it’s worth chasing that unicorn...I’ll have to look into the water for it.

Good discussion fellows!

What I have picked up at Zum Uerige is that the beer is really bitte, but it doesn't linger too long. Keep the sulfates modest to achieve that.

Auto corrupt makes me think bitter vs please. Though I am sure it is pleasingly bitter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think that was just me.

As my friend Gunter, who grew up in Duesseldorf used to say, "Zum Uerige is intensely bitter, but after 5 or 6 you don't notice".

Oh it is about 1.048 OG, and some sources say 50-55 IBU. It is highly attenuated.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on February 21, 2020, 03:50:22 AM
Okay, I just compared my split batch with S-189 versus K-97 and I have lots of comments now:

K-97 is yeasty, leaves a long standing aftertaste of yeast -- ick, I can still taste it 10 minutes after the last sip.  The beer tastes great in your mouth, but I'm not liking the prolonged yeasty aftertaste.  Haze is still noticeable after almost 2 weeks in the bottle, even with gelatin.  Also a slight tartness, which I also associate with presence of yeast.  All this might settle out over time.  I think I will wait another few weeks to let it settle before popping the next bottle.

Other than that, K-97 also has a super creamy long standing head, outstanding retention, and a much softer creamier mouthfeel than the S-189.  It also has an elegant lager-like flavor while in the mouth.  Just that yeasty aftertaste I can't get over.

S-189, on the other hand, is super clean in both aroma and flavor, crystal clear, with a rockier head with much lower retention.  Bitterness is far more pronounced, and I might even call it harsh.  pH is on the high end by design so at this I'm not super surprised.  But noticeably more bitter than the K-97 version.  Flavor, meanwhile tastes like CANDY compared to K-97.  Sweet-ish and cherry-ish candy.  Also sort of like caramel.  But also more bitter.  If that makes any sense.  The candy / caramel no doubt comes from my addition of 2.5% Gambrinus honey malt, which was a leftover, a couple years old, probably oxidized pretty far.  I get the feeling that S-189 allows the malt profile to stand out boldly, there's like zero yeast-derived flavors or esters here, only malt-derived stuff.  Very very clean.

Both beers are also noticeably orange in color, not yellow.  In future I think I'll add zero caramel malts to my light beers -- that was a dumb idea.

Overall, my favorite would be... neither.  Or maybe S-189.  But it's still not as spectacular as Wyeast 2206 or WLP833.  Just really really clean... and as such, kind of boring.  The candy/caramel thing in the S-189 version is weird, though not totally unpleasant (again I think this is my fault), and the yeasty aftertaste of the K-97 is super annoying to me.  Maybe I'm just overly sensitive to yeast?  I mean, tastes like bread & Braunschweiger.  I love bread and I love Braunschweiger... but not so much in my beer.

Bottom line: I won't really hesitate to use S-189 again.  But K-97........ well..... time will tell.  If the yeast gets out of the way, then I think it will be a more tasty beer.  I like how it tastes while in the mouth.  It's the yeasty aftertaste that drives me crazy.  If that goes away, I'll be real happy with it.  It's creamy, smooth, not fruity, no diacetyl, nothing bad but the yeast and poor flocculation.  Reminds me so much of 1007 and 2565.  I'll give it some more time and opportunity to prove itself worthy before passing final judgment.

Cheers all.

EDIT:

Recipe and picture at link below.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=3331.msg436395#msg436395
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Fire Rooster on February 21, 2020, 09:33:21 AM
Good read & review !  :)
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 21, 2020, 01:48:35 PM
Dave - Thanks for the detailed write up. With this info, we will use Wyeast Kolsch next week in our split batch. The other one getting the famous W-34/70.
The grain bill will be 95% Pils, with 5% Vienna.
A detailed post will be made on our results.

The results seem to mirror yours...

My Impressions: I was easily able to tell these beers apart just by appearance, as the beer fermented with US-05 was much clearer than the K-97 beer. I was also able to identify the unique sample consistently over a series of triangle tests. To my palate, the beer fermented with K-97 was a bit more classically expressive and had a bit more character than the US-05, giving it in edge when it terms of personal preference. I also appreciated how the K-97 held a persistent head and left nice lacing on the glass. However, there was nothing wrong with the US-05 beer, I enjoyed drinking both just fine.

For more reading on K-97:
http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 21, 2020, 02:26:40 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on February 21, 2020, 02:46:43 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 21, 2020, 02:56:01 PM
I have a zum Uerige knockoff doing the final lagering at 30F. I used WY-1007, which takes time to clear. This should speed the clearing.
Title: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on February 21, 2020, 03:11:38 PM
Dave, It will be interesting to read your impression after a few wks in the cold to see if it clears, and if so, the resulting taste difference.  I’ve used the yeast in the past but can’t seem to find my notes on that beer. (I’ve had BeerSmith help me by deleting some records)

I plan to use my upcoming k-97 batch in an Alt at a higher avg fermentation temp (60*F) and a higher pitch rate (1 gram per liter wort).  My SOP is a month from keg to tap so we’ll see if any of that makes a difference.

I have a zum Uerige knockoff doing the final lagering at 30F. I used WY-1007, which takes time to clear. This should speed the clearing.

I think I read that you were ~3/4 of the way to a pretty close rendition of Zum Uerige. If you don’t mind sharing I’d like to get your notes on tweeks you made thru the process.

I plan 96.2% Pils, 2.2% Cara III, and 1.6% Carafa Spec III.  I am concerned it still won’t be dark enough.

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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 21, 2020, 03:17:46 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

As filtration is suggested for this yeast, I’ll wager that would abate the yeast issues you have.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Iliff Ave on February 21, 2020, 03:55:28 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

I didn't have an issue getting it clear with a cold crash, adding gelatin, and cold storage. I still got the tart thing. I didn't mean to infer that you don't like it just glad that someone confirmed a note that I didn't like with this yeast. I never ran it as cold as you so I'm sure my results were different anyway.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 21, 2020, 05:09:07 PM
Dave, It will be interesting to read your impression after a few wks in the cold to see if it clears, and if so, the resulting taste difference.  I’ve used the yeast in the past but can’t seem to find my notes on that beer. (I’ve had BeerSmith help me by deleting some records)

I plan to use my upcoming k-97 batch in an Alt at a higher avg fermentation temp (60*F) and a higher pitch rate (1 gram per liter wort).  My SOP is a month from keg to tap so we’ll see if any of that makes a difference.

I have a zum Uerige knockoff doing the final lagering at 30F. I used WY-1007, which takes time to clear. This should speed the clearing.

I think I read that you were ~3/4 of the way to a pretty close rendition of Zum Uerige. If you don’t mind sharing I’d like to get your notes on tweeks you made thru the process.

I plan 96.2% Pils, 2.2% Cara III, and 1.6% Carafa Spec III.  I am concerned it still won’t be dark enough.

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That's the grain bill, I used Perle, Mittelfruh for bittering (50 IBU) spalt at 10, followed the published recipe. Fermented at 60F, then at 50F for a week, then it just went to 30F for 10 days.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on February 21, 2020, 06:15:30 PM
thx!


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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 21, 2020, 09:43:36 PM
Sorry to have derailed the thread, but man I am ready for a Zum Uerige!
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 27, 2020, 01:02:35 PM
Well...today is the big day! Brewing up an 11 gallon split batch. Kolsch / Helles. Yes, I know, not recommended!

We will use the Wyeast 2565, and the Saflager W-34/70. Just hope we can get in the "ballpark" for correct style and flavor.

Bought a couple 6 packs of Weihenstephaner, just to get an idea as to the yeast flavor. Very, very clean.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on March 01, 2020, 02:57:27 AM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

In followup... I popped another bottle tonight.  The yeast character has mellowed significantly.  The beer is now easier to enjoy.  Still very bready but the aftertaste is no longer annoying.  Upon first pour, there was significant haze, but after the beer warmed up for about 10 minutes, the haze disappeared.  I don't recall ever having chill haze before, but this is definitely the case with this one.  Aftertaste of Wonder Bread, which is probably somewhat yeasty, but pleasant and not annoying.  I like Wonder Bread.  :)
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on March 06, 2020, 12:23:10 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

In followup... I popped another bottle tonight.  The yeast character has mellowed significantly.  The beer is now easier to enjoy.  Still very bready but the aftertaste is no longer annoying.  Upon first pour, there was significant haze, but after the beer warmed up for about 10 minutes, the haze disappeared.  I don't recall ever having chill haze before, but this is definitely the case with this one.  Aftertaste of Wonder Bread, which is probably somewhat yeasty, but pleasant and not annoying.  I like Wonder Bread.  :)

And now in followup to my own post once again, I popped the next bottle last night to share with friends, and...... drat... smells like farty sulfur, and there is low sulfur in the taste as well, such that honestly I was not proud to share this beer as I did.  Dammit.  The K-97 yeast is pissing me off.  I don't believe I will use it again.  Maybe after another month or two or three of age, the sulfur and yeast will all dissipate.  But in the meantime, I'm impatient and I'm crabby about it.  Naw, I don't recommend this yeast.  That's pretty much where I've landed now.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 07, 2020, 11:47:44 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

In followup... I popped another bottle tonight.  The yeast character has mellowed significantly.  The beer is now easier to enjoy.  Still very bready but the aftertaste is no longer annoying.  Upon first pour, there was significant haze, but after the beer warmed up for about 10 minutes, the haze disappeared.  I don't recall ever having chill haze before, but this is definitely the case with this one.  Aftertaste of Wonder Bread, which is probably somewhat yeasty, but pleasant and not annoying.  I like Wonder Bread.  :)

And now in followup to my own post once again, I popped the next bottle last night to share with friends, and...... drat... smells like farty sulfur, and there is low sulfur in the taste as well, such that honestly I was not proud to share this beer as I did.  Dammit.  The K-97 yeast is pissing me off.  I don't believe I will use it again.  Maybe after another month or two or three of age, the sulfur and yeast will all dissipate.  But in the meantime, I'm impatient and I'm crabby about it.  Naw, I don't recommend this yeast.  That's pretty much where I've landed now.

Are we sure it's the yeast, and not another issue?
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Megary on June 02, 2020, 04:21:36 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

In followup... I popped another bottle tonight.  The yeast character has mellowed significantly.  The beer is now easier to enjoy.  Still very bready but the aftertaste is no longer annoying.  Upon first pour, there was significant haze, but after the beer warmed up for about 10 minutes, the haze disappeared.  I don't recall ever having chill haze before, but this is definitely the case with this one.  Aftertaste of Wonder Bread, which is probably somewhat yeasty, but pleasant and not annoying.  I like Wonder Bread.  :)

And now in followup to my own post once again, I popped the next bottle last night to share with friends, and...... drat... smells like farty sulfur, and there is low sulfur in the taste as well, such that honestly I was not proud to share this beer as I did.  Dammit.  The K-97 yeast is pissing me off.  I don't believe I will use it again.  Maybe after another month or two or three of age, the sulfur and yeast will all dissipate.  But in the meantime, I'm impatient and I'm crabby about it.  Naw, I don't recommend this yeast.  That's pretty much where I've landed now.

Any updates on the K-97 sulfur smell/taste? 

I ask because I just made a Cream Ale with K-97 on Saturday.  Kolsch style yeast...seemed reasonable at the time.  But after reading this thread, I'm guessing I might have made a poor decision.  Covid operations have limited my yeast choices to dry and I opted for this one because I had never used it before.  For pitching, I followed the Fermentis spec sheet - Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F) - so I pitched at 76° but I'm wondering if that was a bit too warm.  The yeast took off like a shot...I had signs of fermentation in 2 hours and my first ever yeast volcano out the air-lock in 15 hours.  All seems quiet now, eerily quiet.  I have no idea what to expect at this point but one must see these things through.  :)
Title: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on June 02, 2020, 05:14:09 PM
Not doubting that the sulfur was present for those above, but I have used K-97 a long time ago without the sulfur issue.  You’re most likely good to go.

However, I have also had a recent sulfur bomb with 34/70 lately which I’ve used many times with no issue whatsoever.  ...but I think it was caused by me futzing with water.


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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: dmtaylor on June 02, 2020, 11:23:42 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

In followup... I popped another bottle tonight.  The yeast character has mellowed significantly.  The beer is now easier to enjoy.  Still very bready but the aftertaste is no longer annoying.  Upon first pour, there was significant haze, but after the beer warmed up for about 10 minutes, the haze disappeared.  I don't recall ever having chill haze before, but this is definitely the case with this one.  Aftertaste of Wonder Bread, which is probably somewhat yeasty, but pleasant and not annoying.  I like Wonder Bread.  :)

And now in followup to my own post once again, I popped the next bottle last night to share with friends, and...... drat... smells like farty sulfur, and there is low sulfur in the taste as well, such that honestly I was not proud to share this beer as I did.  Dammit.  The K-97 yeast is pissing me off.  I don't believe I will use it again.  Maybe after another month or two or three of age, the sulfur and yeast will all dissipate.  But in the meantime, I'm impatient and I'm crabby about it.  Naw, I don't recommend this yeast.  That's pretty much where I've landed now.

Any updates on the K-97 sulfur smell/taste? 

I ask because I just made a Cream Ale with K-97 on Saturday.  Kolsch style yeast...seemed reasonable at the time.  But after reading this thread, I'm guessing I might have made a poor decision.  Covid operations have limited my yeast choices to dry and I opted for this one because I had never used it before.  For pitching, I followed the Fermentis spec sheet - Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F) - so I pitched at 76° but I'm wondering if that was a bit too warm.  The yeast took off like a shot...I had signs of fermentation in 2 hours and my first ever yeast volcano out the air-lock in 15 hours.  All seems quiet now, eerily quiet.  I have no idea what to expect at this point but one must see these things through.  :)

Low sulfur is still there, but it has faded significantly.  Final aged beer is pretty good.  Not great, not bad.  Pretty good.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Megary on June 25, 2020, 11:41:13 PM
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one who gets the strange tangy/tartness thing from K97. From my experience I never thought it would be suitable for Kolsch or Alt though I never attempted those styles with it. I was very excited when they released and then was soon disappointed.

To be clear, I don't want to say that I hate K-97 or would never use it again or anything like that.  I actually enjoy the beer quite a lot... EXCEPT that the lingering yeast flavor is super annoying to me.  I'm still hopeful that this will age after maybe another month.  I should also put all my bottles in the refrigerator to help with the settling, think I'll do that as well.  I wouldn't describe it as any more tart or tangy than any other beer I've ever tasted with entrained yeast, such as a true hefeweizen, or a badly made NEIPA with permanent haze not from hops but from the YEAST.  Just tastes like yeast.  I find yeast to give its own tartness.  If that settles out, it should be a very tasty beer indeed with no real defects.  Time will tell.

In followup... I popped another bottle tonight.  The yeast character has mellowed significantly.  The beer is now easier to enjoy.  Still very bready but the aftertaste is no longer annoying.  Upon first pour, there was significant haze, but after the beer warmed up for about 10 minutes, the haze disappeared.  I don't recall ever having chill haze before, but this is definitely the case with this one.  Aftertaste of Wonder Bread, which is probably somewhat yeasty, but pleasant and not annoying.  I like Wonder Bread.  :)

And now in followup to my own post once again, I popped the next bottle last night to share with friends, and...... drat... smells like farty sulfur, and there is low sulfur in the taste as well, such that honestly I was not proud to share this beer as I did.  Dammit.  The K-97 yeast is pissing me off.  I don't believe I will use it again.  Maybe after another month or two or three of age, the sulfur and yeast will all dissipate.  But in the meantime, I'm impatient and I'm crabby about it.  Naw, I don't recommend this yeast.  That's pretty much where I've landed now.

Any updates on the K-97 sulfur smell/taste? 

I ask because I just made a Cream Ale with K-97 on Saturday.  Kolsch style yeast...seemed reasonable at the time.  But after reading this thread, I'm guessing I might have made a poor decision.  Covid operations have limited my yeast choices to dry and I opted for this one because I had never used it before.  For pitching, I followed the Fermentis spec sheet - Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F) - so I pitched at 76° but I'm wondering if that was a bit too warm.  The yeast took off like a shot...I had signs of fermentation in 2 hours and my first ever yeast volcano out the air-lock in 15 hours.  All seems quiet now, eerily quiet.  I have no idea what to expect at this point but one must see these things through.  :)

Low sulfur is still there, but it has faded significantly.  Final aged beer is pretty good.  Not great, not bad.  Pretty good.

Well K-97 was an interesting ride. 

I used it in a Cream Ale, pitched into 76*F wort, kept it between 66-68F for 12 days. Fermentation took off like crazy.  The K-97 went after the sugars like George Steele on a turnbuckle.  I had my first “yeast through the airlock” volcano, but thankfully I caught it early enough and the villagers got out of town safely.  The sample when I kegged the beer tasted a bit yeasty, but clean otherwise.  81% attenuation.  Hopes were high.
1 week in the keg and I got a nice heady pour, but a pretty cloudy beer.  No cold crash or gelatin was used.  Taking a sip and I got an unmistakable sulfur aroma.  It wasn’t overwhelming, but it was there.  (Is this a lager yeast??)  The beer tasted fine, maybe a bit lemony-bitter.
I let it sit for a few more days but the sulfur wasn’t going away.  And the beer wasn’t really clearing.  But the yeasty thing was fading a bit and the lemony thing was gone. This beer has potential and at this point I’m kicking myself for not using something basic like US-05.
In desperation I started pulling the pin on the keg twice a day in hopes that it would help “purge” the sulfur.  The first pull of the pin was like getting punched in the mouth.  The sulfur spun me around.  But interestingly, the sulfur smell started to fade after a week of this.  Whether pulling the pin or just conditioning time was the reason, I have no idea.  Maybe both.
I just took a small glass and got just a hint of sulfur and a beer that is starting to clear nicely.  The taste is clean and very much the lawnmower beer I was looking for.  A little bready maybe?  I think another week and the sulfur will be gone, and at this point it’s really no longer a distraction but rather an interesting component in the glass.
I’ll definitely try this yeast again.  Though I wonder if there is a better fermentation temp. that would tamp down that sulfur?
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Iliff Ave on June 26, 2020, 12:50:18 AM
I had similar experiences with that yeast in the last and ended up not caring for it. Recently tried m54 for two back to back batches with similar results. Won’t be using that again.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: BrewBama on June 26, 2020, 01:41:33 PM
Have y’all tried the Köln yeast from Lallemand?  It’s another option.


https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/


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Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: Megary on June 26, 2020, 03:27:56 PM
Have y’all tried the Köln yeast from Lallemand?  It’s another option.


https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/


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Thanks.  It is on the list to try for my Cream Ale.  So is WLP080.  Fwiw, I'm not against K-97 (yet), just that for me, it seems to require a bit of patience.

Interesting that on dmtaylor's awesome yeast chart, Koln and K-97 are listed as similar (with M54 and WY1007).  Unless that has been changed.  I don't see any mention of WLP080.
Title: Re: Safale K-97
Post by: erockrph on June 26, 2020, 04:26:01 PM
Have y’all tried the Köln yeast from Lallemand?  It’s another option.


https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/


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Not yet, but i have a few packs in the fridge. One is for a Kölsch and since Lallemand states that its capable of biotransformation, I'll have to try it in something hoppy, too.

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