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General Category => Zymurgy => Topic started by: denny on August 25, 2010, 09:02:56 PM

Title: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 25, 2010, 09:02:56 PM
If anyone has any questions related to my article, post 'em here!

But first, a correction...in the final paragraph, the sentence that begins "The only downside..." should read...

"The only downside to batch sparging is that it may be too fast!  A friend who brews 3 10 gal. batches at a time tried it and said it worked great, but didn't leave him enough extra time to deal with them all!"

Anyone who knows me knows how ludicrous is it to think of me doing 3 10 gal. batches at a time!
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: bluesman on August 25, 2010, 09:45:52 PM
I'll definitely be looking for your article.  Is this your first Zymurgy article?

I'll also give you my review.  ;)
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: saintpierre on August 25, 2010, 09:48:06 PM
Great article! Read it last night. I recently started batch sparging based on comments from the forum and don't think I will switch back.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 25, 2010, 11:25:57 PM
I'll definitely be looking for your article.  Is this your first Zymurgy article?

I'll also give you my review.  ;)

I've done at least one other (can't remember if there were more than that) and a few for BYO.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: treaves on August 26, 2010, 01:55:22 AM
I found it a well-written article. Thanks!  I fly sparge, as it's trivial for me to do on my cheap sculpture, but, if I was using an Igloo I'd switch.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: nppeders on August 26, 2010, 03:08:52 PM
Hey Denny,

I have a question for you.  I use a 54 quart igloo cooler to batch sparge and am just getting into 10 gallon batch's.   I can't for the life of me figure out what is the biggest beer I can do with this system.  I'd like to be able to do a beer at 1.060 as like you say, life starts at 60!   Any idea on how big a beer I can do on this system at 70% efficiency?   I'm thinking that at the least, I'll give it a try, and if I don't reach 12+ gallons after Mash and Sparge I can always sparge again with a few extra gallons.  Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Nick
www.dankbrewingcompany.blogspot.com
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 26, 2010, 03:51:48 PM
Yeah, about the only time I do more than a single sparge is when I'm making a larger batch or higher OG beer.  With my 48 qt. cooler, I max out at 28 lb. of grain at 1 qt./lb.  At that point the cooler is almost too full to stir.  I can do 5 gal. of a 1.100 OG or 10 gal. of a 1.050 OG.  There's a great "Can I Mash It?" volume calculator at http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml .
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: nppeders on August 26, 2010, 04:04:46 PM
Thanks Denny!

According to that calculator I think I can make it to 1.060.   Is that calculator set up for 5 gallon batch's though.  That's what I can't tell with that calculator.   I'm thinking trial and error on the first one, and double sparge if I have too!   I really wanna make a 10 gallon batch of the GF Hop Head Red Clone I brewed earlier in the year!   
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 26, 2010, 04:15:02 PM
Thanks Denny!

According to that calculator I think I can make it to 1.060.   Is that calculator set up for 5 gallon batch's though.  That's what I can't tell with that calculator.   I'm thinking trial and error on the first one, and double sparge if I have too!   I really wanna make a 10 gallon batch of the GF Hop Head Red Clone I brewed earlier in the year!   

What it's telling you is how much volume your mash will occupy.  Batch size is irrelevant.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: nppeders on August 26, 2010, 04:24:00 PM
HMMM....I think I need more coffee or something to get my brain juices flowing.   It seems to me that batch size would matter because you'd use almost twice as much strike and sparge water for a 10 gallon versus 5 gallon batch.  Maybe I'm just being dumb though.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: nppeders on August 26, 2010, 04:27:17 PM
Sorry for hijacking your thread by the way.  I appreciate your help....you rock!
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 26, 2010, 04:27:47 PM
HMMM....I think I need more coffee or something to get my brain juices flowing.   It seems to me that batch size would matter because you'd use almost twice as much strike and sparge water for a 10 gallon versus 5 gallon batch.  Maybe I'm just being dumb though.

Or I am!  I just realized that you;re looking for info on the whole process and that calculator only tells you how much volume your mash (grain and strike water) will occupy.  After that, you kinda have to do the sparge empirically.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: nppeders on August 26, 2010, 04:29:43 PM
Right.  My sparge is where it gets close, because the grain has already absorbed the strike water during the mash.   
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: linenoiz on August 26, 2010, 07:13:57 PM
I was at my LHBS this last weekend, looking for a kit to convert a cooler. I talked to one of the people working there, asking if their kit would fit my cooler (it was a SS braid and a bulkhead. It looked right, just awful small). He said it would if it was a round cooler, but the square one I had wouldn't work right, it would channel, and it would be just terrible. He then proceeded to draw me a diagram on how I could build a drain thingymabob out of PVC or copper. The whole time he was doing that, I kept thinking "but Denny says..." I ended up not buying the kit and walking out with only the latest issue of Zymurgy. I totally guffawed when I saw this article in it. I need to go back tell him to RTFM!
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 26, 2010, 08:42:48 PM
I was at my LHBS this last weekend, looking for a kit to convert a cooler. I talked to one of the people working there, asking if their kit would fit my cooler (it was a SS braid and a bulkhead. It looked right, just awful small). He said it would if it was a round cooler, but the square one I had wouldn't work right, it would channel, and it would be just terrible. He then proceeded to draw me a diagram on how I could build a drain thingymabob out of PVC or copper. The whole time he was doing that, I kept thinking "but Denny says..." I ended up not buying the kit and walking out with only the latest issue of Zymurgy. I totally guffawed when I saw this article in it. I need to go back tell him to RTFM!

You might want to save the money on a bulkhead and look at my website for an alternative.  Although it varies some deopending on which cooler you use, I've found that often a bulkhead doesn't allow you o get the braid down on the floor of the cooler and you lose some wort because of it.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: linenoiz on August 26, 2010, 09:27:04 PM
You might want to save the money on a bulkhead and look at my website for an alternative.  Although it varies some deopending on which cooler you use, I've found that often a bulkhead doesn't allow you o get the braid down on the floor of the cooler and you lose some wort because of it.
Too late, I already built it!

I attached a short piece of tubing to the barb on the inside of the cooler, then attached the hose braid to that. In my water drain test, I was able to drain about an inch or so below the bulkhead. How well that will work with grain in there... Well, I'll find out in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: rabid_dingo on August 26, 2010, 09:42:21 PM
...
You might want to save the money on a bulkhead and look at my website for an alternative.  Although it varies some deopending on which cooler you use, I've found that often a bulkhead doesn't allow you o get the braid down on the floor of the cooler and you lose some wort because of it.
Too late, I already built it!

I attached a short piece of tubing to the barb on the inside of the cooler, then attached the hose braid to that. In my water drain test, I was able to drain about an inch or so below the bulkhead. How well that will work with grain in there... Well, I'll find out in a couple of weeks.

No prob, just prop the far end of the cooler with a couple of 2X4s. You wont capture all of the sparge lost the "dead space" but it helps. I've been looking for a cooler that has a channel for a lower spigot. I saw one once but it's "the cooler that got away."
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: Hokerer on August 26, 2010, 11:26:15 PM
I've been looking for a cooler that has a channel for a lower spigot. I saw one once but it's "the cooler that got away."

Any sporting goods joint or even something like Wally-World ought to carry the Coleman Xtreme's.  The pic of mine shows the drain channel and I end up with about zero deadspace losses...

(http://www.brinkleys.org/users/tsl/Files/IMG_1042s.jpg)
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 26, 2010, 11:36:31 PM
Denny - my name is Jeff, and I am a flysparger. 

But I can also adapt to different things, so I have pulled out the old Rubbermaid orange (sorry) round cooler from my brewing equipment museum, and will try a batch sparge or three.  Anything to take 30-45 minutes out of the brewday for some beers is a good thing to explore. 

Is a Coleman Extreme in my future?
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: rabid_dingo on August 27, 2010, 12:29:40 AM
I've been looking for a cooler that has a channel for a lower spigot. I saw one once but it's "the cooler that got away."

Any sporting goods joint or even something like Wally-World ought to carry the Coleman Xtreme's.  The pic of mine shows the drain channel and I end up with about zero deadspace losses...

(http://www.brinkleys.org/users/tsl/Files/IMG_1042s.jpg)

That's the one! Will start looking for it...
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: tygo on August 27, 2010, 02:45:55 AM
Amazon has the 70 qt xtreme for $40 and free shipping right now:

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-70-Quart-Xtreme-Cooler-Blue/dp/B000G64I1A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1282877033&sr=8-2
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: tschmidlin on August 27, 2010, 04:07:40 AM
Amazon has the 70 qt xtreme for $40 and free shipping right now:

http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-70-Quart-Xtreme-Cooler-Blue/dp/B000G64I1A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1282877033&sr=8-2
The 100 quart one comes with wheels, $75.  You could probably fit 75 lbs of grain in that!  ;D  I've been needing a new cooler anyway, and I'm a fan of the wheels.  According to coleman.com, it's got the drain channel too.
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-100-Quart-Xtreme-Wheeled-Cooler/dp/B000G64FJK/ref=pd_luc_sim_01_02_t_lht1

But I think I'm going to get the 70 qt one and see how it goes.  I actually intend to use it as a cooler, not as a mash tun!  :o
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: tygo on August 27, 2010, 12:06:43 PM
But I think I'm going to get the 70 qt one and see how it goes.  I actually intend to use it as a cooler, not as a mash tun!  :o

And then one day soon at a nice picnic you'll be standing their admiring your 70 qt cooler and you'll start thinking, "I could just put a little braid in there..."
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 27, 2010, 03:42:37 PM
Denny - my name is Jeff, and I am a flysparger.  

But I can also adapt to different things, so I have pulled out the old Rubbermaid orange (sorry) round cooler from my brewing equipment museum, and will try a batch sparge or three.  Anything to take 30-45 minutes out of the brewday for some beers is a good thing to explore.  

Is a Coleman Extreme in my future?

Jeff, the first step is to admit you have a problem!  ;)

The round cooler will work fine for batch sparging, but I find a rectangular is much easier to use due to the larger opening.  They don't cost much, so my recommendation would be to just get a rectangular and avoid possibly having to change down the road.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 27, 2010, 04:14:11 PM
I am going to use the old round one just to see how it goes.  Also thinking of making a Fred Bonjour beer, you know, really really big.  So the plan is to use the 1/2 barrel mash tun and the rubbermaid cooler to add to the grain bill.   This was just with the stuff on hand, if I want to do more then I can get the Coleman Extreme. 


Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 27, 2010, 05:10:53 PM
Sounds like a plan!
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: tschmidlin on August 27, 2010, 05:18:03 PM
And then one day soon at a nice picnic you'll be standing their admiring your 70 qt cooler and you'll start thinking, "I could just put a little braid in there..."
I mash in a converted keg though, so there's really no need to change.  Although it would fit more grain . . . or if I wanted to do a second mash . . . :)
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: bonjour on August 27, 2010, 05:20:52 PM
I am going to use the old round one just to see how it goes.  Also thinking of making a Fred Bonjour beer, you know, really really big.  So the plan is to use the 1/2 barrel mash tun and the rubbermaid cooler to add to the grain bill.   This was just with the stuff on hand, if I want to do more then I can get the Coleman Extreme. 
Key is to collect lots of wort at a very high fermentability, then boil it down to volume,  long boil, another key.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: hopfenundmalz on August 27, 2010, 05:30:58 PM
Fred, I have been paying attention!  Of late, I have been looking at some of the Thomas Hardy recipes that are in some books I have.  It might be fun to try something like that.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: Slowbrew on August 27, 2010, 07:30:42 PM
Just got around to reading the latest issue.

Nice article Denny!!!  Even my wife chuckled when saw the byline.  "Is that the Denny from the forums you spend so much time reading?" she said.  Like it's a bad thing.   :)

Keep 'em coming because I still have lots to learn.

I found a blue Coleman Extreme (I can't recall the exact size at the moment, just big) this summer at K-Mart.  They had them on sale for $39 or so. 

If you need to get your braid closer to the bottom in a cooler without a drain recess you can use 2 45 deg. copper elbows fitted together and drop it about 3/4".  I did that in a smaller cooler I used for awhile.

Paul
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: jrskjei on August 28, 2010, 05:09:57 AM
The article is great - thanks for putting that together.  It's an article that almost everybody can get something out of.  I was really happy to see it listed on the cover and even more excited to find that you had written it.
I have a question about the water temperatures listed in the "A Batch Sparge Walkthrough" section.  I usually brew with 12-15 lbs of grain in a 10 gallon cooler.  I heat the mash water to about 78-80 deg C, add it to the cooler, and let it cool to around 74 deg C before I add the grain.  This usually gets me a mash temp around 65 deg C.  I'll then fly sparge with water at about 77 deg C. I have done a batch sparge only twice, and the target temps I used were the same as when I fly sparge.  I am going to do a brew on Sunday and am going to batch sparge it.   You have listed the mash and batch sparge water at 85-88 deg C, which seems kinda high to me.  Do you need those higher temps to account for the complete draining of the tun?  Is there something I'm missing?
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 28, 2010, 03:56:20 PM
The article is great - thanks for putting that together.  It's an article that almost everybody can get something out of.  I was really happy to see it listed on the cover and even more excited to find that you had written it.
I have a question about the water temperatures listed in the "A Batch Sparge Walkthrough" section.  I usually brew with 12-15 lbs of grain in a 10 gallon cooler.  I heat the mash water to about 78-80 deg C, add it to the cooler, and let it cool to around 74 deg C before I add the grain.  This usually gets me a mash temp around 65 deg C.  I'll then fly sparge with water at about 77 deg C. I have done a batch sparge only twice, and the target temps I used were the same as when I fly sparge.  I am going to do a brew on Sunday and am going to batch sparge it.   You have listed the mash and batch sparge water at 85-88 deg C, which seems kinda high to me.  Do you need those higher temps to account for the complete draining of the tun?  Is there something I'm missing?

Nope, you're not missing anything.  For the mash, use whatever temp you usually like to use, and account fopr the thermal mass of the cooler and grain in your normal way.  For the sparge, I like to try to get my grainbed up to about 168F if I can.  To do that, I use sparge water that's about 185-190.  I don't know if there's really an advantage to doing that, but it's my SOP.  I suppose that since you drain the tun before the sparge there may be less residual heat there than if there was still water in it.  Basically, use whatever temps work for you....my article was intended to be only a general guideline for temps.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: pertinax92 on August 28, 2010, 11:42:19 PM
great article!  no other comment.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: jrskjei on August 29, 2010, 12:09:39 PM
The article is great - thanks for putting that together.  It's an article that almost everybody can get something out of.  I was really happy to see it listed on the cover and even more excited to find that you had written it.
I have a question about the water temperatures listed in the "A Batch Sparge Walkthrough" section.  I usually brew with 12-15 lbs of grain in a 10 gallon cooler.  I heat the mash water to about 78-80 deg C, add it to the cooler, and let it cool to around 74 deg C before I add the grain.  This usually gets me a mash temp around 65 deg C.  I'll then fly sparge with water at about 77 deg C. I have done a batch sparge only twice, and the target temps I used were the same as when I fly sparge.  I am going to do a brew on Sunday and am going to batch sparge it.   You have listed the mash and batch sparge water at 85-88 deg C, which seems kinda high to me.  Do you need those higher temps to account for the complete draining of the tun?  Is there something I'm missing?

Nope, you're not missing anything.  For the mash, use whatever temp you usually like to use, and account fopr the thermal mass of the cooler and grain in your normal way.  For the sparge, I like to try to get my grainbed up to about 168F if I can.  To do that, I use sparge water that's about 185-190.  I don't know if there's really an advantage to doing that, but it's my SOP.  I suppose that since you drain the tun before the sparge there may be less residual heat there than if there was still water in it.  Basically, use whatever temps work for you....my article was intended to be only a general guideline for temps.

Thanks for the info, and the quick response. I'm really looking forward to this batch.  I'll keep an eye out for more of your articles.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: halenrush on August 29, 2010, 05:52:42 PM
Denny, I haven't read all the responses so I don't know if this was brought up. 

Up until yesterday, I've been using a brewing calculator for my strike and sparge water calculations.  I usually ended up with about 8 gallons of preboil wort with my method which consisted of 3-4 gallons of strike water and 5-6 gallons of sparge water, depending on recipe. I would never try and split strike and sparge water 50/50 (like your method).  Usually, my way had great efficiencies but my gravity would be a few points low.  Your way, yesterday, gave me a more accurate OG.  Did that make the difference? 
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on August 30, 2010, 04:18:53 PM
Denny, I haven't read all the responses so I don't know if this was brought up. 

Up until yesterday, I've been using a brewing calculator for my strike and sparge water calculations.  I usually ended up with about 8 gallons of preboil wort with my method which consisted of 3-4 gallons of strike water and 5-6 gallons of sparge water, depending on recipe. I would never try and split strike and sparge water 50/50 (like your method).  Usually, my way had great efficiencies but my gravity would be a few points low.  Your way, yesterday, gave me a more accurate OG.  Did that make the difference? 

I can't say for sure, but it's entirely possible it did.  You'd need to repeat exactly the same batch and procedure a few times to be certain, though.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: halenrush on August 31, 2010, 05:14:08 PM
If I perfect your method, I'm starting to wonder if I can pull off 10 gallon batches in my 52qt mash tun.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: bluedog on September 02, 2010, 03:11:38 PM
Hi Denny,

I have a question regarding your article on batch sparging. I have been fly sparging and anything to cut the time down on brew day would be great. My mash tun is a 10 gallon pot with a false bottom. The false bottom takes 1.25 gallons to fill. If I use this set up to batch sparge how do I account for the extra water in the false bottom. It seems most people batch sparging use a mesh screen instead of a false bottom.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: bonjour on September 02, 2010, 03:30:40 PM
I batch sparge a bit differently, and I don't calculate.

1. mash normally
2. drain mash tun into boil kettle (after clearing the wort/vorlaufing)
3. measure the wort in the kettle
4. add either the full amount remaining or half the amount remaining
5. repeat as necessary from item 2.

Works every time and no worry about dead space.
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on September 02, 2010, 03:50:05 PM
Hi Denny,

I have a question regarding your article on batch sparging. I have been fly sparging and anything to cut the time down on brew day would be great. My mash tun is a 10 gallon pot with a false bottom. The false bottom takes 1.25 gallons to fill. If I use this set up to batch sparge how do I account for the extra water in the false bottom. It seems most people batch sparging use a mesh screen instead of a false bottom.


Boy, that's one I haven't dealt with!  I assume you;d account for it the same way you do for fly sparging.  Is there much dead space or does it drain completely?
Title: Re: 2010 Sept./Oct. - Batch Sparging
Post by: denny on September 02, 2010, 03:50:57 PM
I batch sparge a bit differently, and I don't calculate.

1. mash normally
2. drain mash tun into boil kettle (after clearing the wort/vorlaufing)
3. measure the wort in the kettle
4. add either the full amount remaining or half the amount remaining
5. repeat as necessary from item 2.

Works every time and no worry about dead space.

The empirical method!  In my article, I address that in the section "Science or Seat of the Pants?".