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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: fredthecat on May 12, 2020, 08:37:10 pm

Title: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: fredthecat on May 12, 2020, 08:37:10 pm
I used it a long, long time ago, so long ago I don't even have notes on that beer anymore. Edit: I did find the notes. it just says "off yeast taste" then later notes say "off yeast taste is 80% gone" after weeks later.

I remember not liking it. But it is 2020, I want a cheap and clean yeast other than S05, and want to try nottingham for the heck of it.

Would you recommend it?
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: TANSTAAFB on May 12, 2020, 08:52:23 pm
I had the same off experience years ago and never tried it again. I'd love to hear the Notty success stories! I've really enjoyed Fermentis’ 34/70 as a clean, go either way yeast. Or  Bry-97 as a dry Chico alternative.

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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: jeffy on May 13, 2020, 05:02:12 am
I used Nottingham recently in half a batch of Rye APA, the other half with BRY-97.  I prefer the Nottingham.
I had not used this yeast in about 28 years, when it used to come in a packaged kit beer.  Now that it can be purchased fresh like any other dry yeast, I believe all the previous memories of off flavors are in the past.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Fire Rooster on May 13, 2020, 05:22:18 am
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/docs/products/tds/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_NOTTINGHAM_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

I don't have enough experience to comment in detail.
However, after 20 consecutive batches using this yeast,
I can confirm it's slightly fruity to neutral (to the best of my ability).
These perceived results are from fermenting many styles, with 4.25 gallons,
at ambient 54-58F, for 3-4 weeks.  Yeast was always pitched directly into wort.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Northern_Brewer on May 13, 2020, 05:46:13 am
It's complicated. Some people seem to really not get on with Notty, yet plenty of people use it happily (it's very widely used in UK commercial microbreweries) and I'm not sure anyone's quite figured out why.

So I'd suggest if you don't get on with it, use BRY-97 or 34/70 or whatever.

One thing Notty is really useful for is as a "helper" yeast added at high krausen or so to help other yeast flocc out and to squeeze an extra bit of attenuation out of lower attenuation strains. Windsor followed by Notty is a classic combination of dry yeast for UK styles.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: erockrph on May 13, 2020, 05:55:03 am
It's complicated. Some people seem to really not get on with Notty, yet plenty of people use it happily (it's very widely used in UK commercial microbreweries) and I'm not sure anyone's quite figured out why.

So I'd suggest if you don't get on with it, use BRY-97 or 34/70 or whatever.

One thing Notty is really useful for is as a "helper" yeast added at high krausen or so to help other yeast flocc out and to squeeze an extra bit of attenuation out of lower attenuation strains. Windsor followed by Notty is a classic combination of dry yeast for UK styles.

I use the Windsor/Notty combo a couple of times a year and never got any off flavors. I haven't used Nottingham on its own in years, but that's only because I've already settled on US-05 as my clean ale yeast of choice from years of use and familiarity.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on May 13, 2020, 06:58:25 am
Nottingham simply needs to be kept on the colder side in order to be considered clean.  S-O5 is well more heat forgiving in this regard.  That is (in my opinion) why in comparison of the outcomes of these two, S-O5 often wins.  I.E. Nottingham fails to live up to S-05 because people treat it as if it actually is S-05, when it is not.  Nottingham can be successfully used as an ale yeast substitute for lager yeast, and will ferment at 50 degrees F.  If kept at or below a cut-off point of about 62 degrees (at most) it is clean.  It simply is not SO5 like as to its temperature profile, and Lallemand does it a major injustice by implying otherwise.

PS:  If you simply pitch Nottingham in a refrigerated environment maintained at 62 degrees, it will heat the Wort to potentially as high as 72 degrees, and it will fail and taste awful.  The Wort itself needs to be actively maintained at (or below) 62 degrees for Nottingham, not the air environment around it.  It also does not explode and head out the blow-off tube when so maintained.  In fact, at the proper temperatures it doesn't even need a blow off tube.  If you see it heading out the blow-off tube, this is a good indication that the beer will taste "off".
Title: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: BrewBama on May 13, 2020, 08:05:33 am
I must have missed it somewhere but I’ve not seen the mfr suggesting Nottingham is a US-05 like.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200513/e7fbc9dfa1dacd7da6788cd239598db6.jpg)


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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: denny on May 13, 2020, 08:07:36 am
I used Nottingham recently in half a batch of Rye APA, the other half with BRY-97.  I prefer the Nottingham.
I had not used this yeast in about 28 years, when it used to come in a packaged kit beer.  Now that it can be purchased fresh like any other dry yeast, I believe all the previous memories of off flavors are in the past.

I'm a big fan of BRY97 and I'd love to hear your thoughts comparing them.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on May 13, 2020, 08:44:36 am
I must have missed it somewhere but I’ve not seen the mfr suggesting Nottingham is a US-05 like.

I hope I didn't in any way imply that, as I was arguing quite the opposite.  I said that in my opinion (subject of course to being right or wrong, as for any opinion) many home brewers seem to make that assumption.  And that Lallemand doesn't help things by implying that Nottingham can successfully be used at temperatures generally up to the range seen for US-05.  In none of this does Lallemand imply that Nottingham is similar to US-05.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 13, 2020, 10:05:38 am
Interesting thread. I had given up on Nottingham yeast, but might revisit using it.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: BrewBama on May 13, 2020, 12:30:30 pm
I must have missed it somewhere but I’ve not seen the mfr suggesting Nottingham is a US-05 like.

I hope I didn't in any way imply that, as I was arguing quite the opposite.  I said that in my opinion (subject of course to being right or wrong, as for any opinion) many home brewers seem to make that assumption.  And that Lallemand doesn't help things by implying that Nottingham can successfully be used at temperatures generally up to the range seen for US-05.  In none of this does Lallemand imply that Nottingham is similar to US-05.
I guess I’m confused. I don’t think they’ve implied anything.

I believe they have a suggested fermentation temp range based on sensory analysis and their products can be successfully used within the guidelines provides.

If it is the same temp range as another yeast that is no implication they are the same strain. I’ve never heard anyone say they were based on temp range until you did here today. 

Bry-97 and Windsor have the same recommended fermentation temp range as well. They aren’t the same either.

I’m sorry if I am missing the point.


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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: tommymorris on May 13, 2020, 12:59:48 pm
I must have missed it somewhere but I’ve not seen the mfr suggesting Nottingham is a US-05 like.

I hope I didn't in any way imply that, as I was arguing quite the opposite.  I said that in my opinion (subject of course to being right or wrong, as for any opinion) many home brewers seem to make that assumption.  And that Lallemand doesn't help things by implying that Nottingham can successfully be used at temperatures generally up to the range seen for US-05.  In none of this does Lallemand imply that Nottingham is similar to US-05.
I guess I’m confused. I don’t think they’ve implied anything.

I believe they have a suggested fermentation temp range based on sensory analysis and their products can be successfully used within the guidelines provides.

If it is the same temp range as another yeast that is no implication they are the same strain. I’ve never heard anyone say they were based on temp range until you did here today. 

Bry-97 and Windsor have the same recommended fermentation temp range as well. They aren’t the same either.

I’m sorry if I am missing the point.


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The sensory diagram in the Nottingham data sheet shows basically neutral yeast flavors and the temp range listed in the data sheet is pretty wide. That implies neutral across the whole temp range. This is more true for some yeasts than others (true for 34/70, Bry-97).

I wish yeast providers gave more data across more conditions.

Reading homebrewer forums can tell you a lot more about how a yeast behaves across a variety of conditions: temp ranges, pitch rates, etc.

I don’t mean to throw Nottingham under the bus. Generalizations based on one test condition are common for lots of yeast’s data sheets.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: mdyer909 on May 13, 2020, 04:07:30 pm
I use it and like it.  I just ferment at ambient temperatures, but even in the summer it rarely gets above 70 at my place, and I tend to brew English style bitters in the late summer to drink in the fall, so it’s probably fermented cooler.
Title: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: BrewBama on May 13, 2020, 04:08:02 pm
If they’ve done anything close to what Fermentis has done based on their presentation at HBC, they ck several temps, OG, and pitch rates to draw their conclusions.

Of course, I’m also assuming Fermentis has performed this analysis across their product line. The presentation only discussed 34/70.


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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Copymutt on May 13, 2020, 05:55:41 pm
Notty led me down the lager path.  I’ll need to find my notes.  Notty, Windsor was my choice for a boosted American style Ale.
After it reached acceptable FG it was xferd to a cornie and crashed. 3 days later it developed carbonation at 48*. Looked it up and found it to be active for both Ale and lager. Final product sent me down the lagering path. Haven’t looked back.
Jim
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: fredthecat on May 14, 2020, 05:15:41 pm
Ok, thanks

Definitely I think it requires a lower temp than s05. The instructions I heard over and over at one time were "Nottingham just rips through anything and is clean, its so easy, same as s05" etc, and I'm sure that it would have been fermenting likely around 65F. Also could have been an old packet

Is there a difference between BRY97 and s05?

Anyway, I'm not going to risk it on nottingham, got s05.. again.
Title: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: BrewBama on May 14, 2020, 05:44:25 pm

Is there a difference between BRY97 and s05?


Yes. In my opinion, Bry-97 is slower to start and finish and is much cleaner than US-05. It is my go-to (house?) yeast. I use it in ~90% of my beers. Many of my “lagers” are actually ‘faux’ or ‘mochs’ which are probably more like Cream Ale-style or Kölsch-style beers (Ales treated as Lagers).


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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: TANSTAAFB on May 14, 2020, 06:29:03 pm
I used S05 for many years but after listening to a podcast (was that you Denny?) that mentioned the peachy flavor I couldn't untaste it! So I switched to Bry-97 for clean ales. Haven't tried it for my kolsch/cream ale recipes as I usually just use 34/70 but might have to give it a shot fermenting a little cooler. Honestly, now that I have a basement brewery that stays 65-68 year round, unless I'm brewing something that requires a specific yeast and a specific temp range I don't even mess with temp control. I spent so many years brewing in Texas fighting the heat and then a little spot in southern Colorado that likes to stay below zero for waaaaay too long (I think it got to -40 something the first year we were there. That was a bit of a shock to the system after 110°  + Texas summers!) that I enjoy the simplicity of yeast that is a little forgiving as long as I keep it in a reasonable range.

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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Steve Ruch on May 14, 2020, 09:07:05 pm
I plan on a British pale ale next month using nottingham.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Iliff Ave on May 15, 2020, 08:08:53 am

Is there a difference between BRY97 and s05?


Yes. In my opinion, Bry-97 is slower to start and finish and is much cleaner than US-05. It is my go-to (house?) yeast. I use it in ~90% of my beers. Many of my “lagers” are actually ‘faux’ or ‘mochs’ which are probably more like Cream Ale-style or Kölsch-style beers (Ales treated as Lagers).


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My experience was the opposite but I only have used 97 once with more to come. It started fast, finished fast, with good attenuation. Performed better than 05 and I am looking forward to using it more.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: denny on May 15, 2020, 08:17:40 am

Is there a difference between BRY97 and s05?


Yes. In my opinion, Bry-97 is slower to start and finish and is much cleaner than US-05. It is my go-to (house?) yeast. I use it in ~90% of my beers. Many of my “lagers” are actually ‘faux’ or ‘mochs’ which are probably more like Cream Ale-style or Kölsch-style beers (Ales treated as Lagers).


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My experience also.  BRY97 is my go to dry ale yeast.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: denny on May 15, 2020, 08:18:24 am
I used S05 for many years but after listening to a podcast (was that you Denny?) that mentioned the peachy flavor I couldn't untaste it! So I switched to Bry-97 for clean ales. Haven't tried it for my kolsch/cream ale recipes as I usually just use 34/70 but might have to give it a shot fermenting a little cooler. Honestly, now that I have a basement brewery that stays 65-68 year round, unless I'm brewing something that requires a specific yeast and a specific temp range I don't even mess with temp control. I spent so many years brewing in Texas fighting the heat and then a little spot in southern Colorado that likes to stay below zero for waaaaay too long (I think it got to -40 something the first year we were there. That was a bit of a shock to the system after 110°  + Texas summers!) that I enjoy the simplicity of yeast that is a little forgiving as long as I keep it in a reasonable range.

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Yeah, that was probably me.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: denny on May 15, 2020, 08:19:05 am

Is there a difference between BRY97 and s05?


Yes. In my opinion, Bry-97 is slower to start and finish and is much cleaner than US-05. It is my go-to (house?) yeast. I use it in ~90% of my beers. Many of my “lagers” are actually ‘faux’ or ‘mochs’ which are probably more like Cream Ale-style or Kölsch-style beers (Ales treated as Lagers).


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My experience was the opposite but I only have used 97 once with more to come. It started fast, finished fast, with good attenuation. Performed better than 05 and I am looking forward to using it more.

Yeah, people keepm talking about slow starts with it, but that hasn't been my experience.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Visor on May 15, 2020, 09:29:35 am
   I just used Bry for the 1st time in a split ferment of my dark cream ale with 05 as the other yeast. Fresh packages sprinkled on the surface immediately after chilling. The Bry was almost a day slower starting than the 05 but finished a more than a day sooner with the Bry at 83% AA & the 05 at 79% AA. They're both cold crashing at the moment so I don't have final taste results yet, but tasting the gravity samples I really couldn't tell a difference.
   As to the OP's original question, I've never used Notty but have a package I've been meaning have a go at if I ever figure out what I want to do with it.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: tommymorris on May 15, 2020, 02:02:01 pm

Is there a difference between BRY97 and s05?


Yes. In my opinion, Bry-97 is slower to start and finish and is much cleaner than US-05. It is my go-to (house?) yeast. I use it in ~90% of my beers. Many of my “lagers” are actually ‘faux’ or ‘mochs’ which are probably more like Cream Ale-style or Kölsch-style beers (Ales treated as Lagers).


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Bry-97 is a very good yeast for clean ales. US-05 has the peach flavor others have mentioned. People say ferment warmer to avoid the peach but Bry-97 is clean regardless of temp (within limits).

I do like the mouthfeel from Chico. But, if I want Chico I go with a liquid version.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: denny on May 15, 2020, 02:25:18 pm
Can someone post a recipe and process for re-producing peach flavors with US-05? 

I brewed a number of batches last winter with US-05 in the 57-ish ambient (around 60-ish in fermenter) and didn't find peach flavors.

Does it to me regardless of recipe or process.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: TANSTAAFB on May 15, 2020, 03:37:47 pm
I think it's an individual flavor threshold thing. I used it for years and brewed good beer that I and my friends and family enjoyed. But once I looked for it, I couldn't escape it and switched to Bry-97. Others who drank my beer either didn't notice or didn't care.

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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: Iliff Ave on May 15, 2020, 06:33:45 pm
I think it's an individual flavor threshold thing. I used it for years and brewed good beer that I and my friends and family enjoyed. But once I looked for it, I couldn't escape it and switched to Bry-97. Others who drank my beer either didn't notice or didn't care.

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Couldn’t agree more never noticed the peach thing in 05. Sometimes I wish I could because I might like it.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: chumley on May 15, 2020, 09:10:19 pm
Years ago I brewed am "Imperial" cream ale with Nottingham (OG 1.065) and I have friends to this day telling me that was the best beer I ever brewed.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: skyler on May 21, 2020, 11:49:57 pm
Can someone post a recipe and process for re-producing peach flavors with US-05? 

I brewed a number of batches last winter with US-05 in the 57-ish ambient (around 60-ish in fermenter) and didn't find peach flavors.

I got it once, years ago:

10 lbs US 2-row
1 lb munich
1 lb caramunich

1 oz Perle 60 mins
1 oz Mt Hood 15 minutes.

Pitch at 72F, ferment at ambient, and experience a heatwave the next day so it ferments in the low-80's. Worth nothing: it's a cooked/candy peach flavor, not fresh peach. Think cheap peach cobbler pie filling.
.5 lbs golden naked oats
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: denny on May 22, 2020, 07:51:07 am
I think it's an individual flavor threshold thing. I used it for years and brewed good beer that I and my friends and family enjoyed. But once I looked for it, I couldn't escape it and switched to Bry-97. Others who drank my beer either didn't notice or didn't care.

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Couldn’t agree more never noticed the peach thing in 05. Sometimes I wish I could because I might like it.

I used 05 for years and never noticed it.  Thought 05 was very clean.  But once I tasted it I couldn't not taste it any more.  What does that mean?  Maybe there are only specific production runs that have it?  Maybe some people re more sensitive to it than others?  Maybe there are certain brewing processes that bring it out?  I have no idea, but I have found the way for me to avoid it is to avoid 05.
Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: TANSTAAFB on May 22, 2020, 09:01:20 am
I think it's an individual flavor threshold thing. I used it for years and brewed good beer that I and my friends and family enjoyed. But once I looked for it, I couldn't escape it and switched to Bry-97. Others who drank my beer either didn't notice or didn't care.

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Couldn’t agree more never noticed the peach thing in 05. Sometimes I wish I could because I might like it.

I used 05 for years and never noticed it.  Thought 05 was very clean.  But once I tasted it I couldn't not taste it any more.  What does that mean?  Maybe there are only specific production runs that have it?  Maybe some people re more sensitive to it than others?  Maybe there are certain brewing processes that bring it out?  I have no idea, but I have found the way for me to avoid it is to avoid 05.
My palate is not very refined and I struggle to pick out exactly what the flaws in my beer are. I've been brewing for about 12 years now, so not talking about the easy off flavors that we eliminate through knowledge, experience, and solid fundamental brewing practices. I mean those subtle flaws that are the most difficult to identify and correct. I know there's something there I don't like but not always able to figure out exactly what it is, what I did to get it, or how to fix it. After hearing Denny talk about the cheap, fake, candy peach flavor was one of those epiphany moments where I actually knew what was off, why it was off, and how to avoid it in the future.  Thank you sir! 

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Title: Re: Would you recommend nottingham yeast in 2020?
Post by: ynotbrusum on May 22, 2020, 10:51:24 am
Sensitivities are just part of a person's makeup.  I am so sensitive to clove that for the longest time I avoided any slightly phenolic yeasts or beers made with them, but after a few years, I overcame it with a liberal amount of high end commercial saisons….I still get the yips on many super heavy clove and banana hefeweizens, but that might be my next hurdle.  Some might say, why punish yourself, but I kind of look at it as trying to overcome a negative bias that allows me personally to experience what others see in a favorite.  Even when I can't come to fully appreciate it for my own enjoyment, I can appreciate what others find enjoyable.  (I avoid making extremely hopped styles for the same reason - tough on my palate, but I have had enough NEIPA's to appreciate what others enjoy in them)

As to the peach - yeah, I have it in my head, too, and I try to ignore it/forgive it in beers made with US-05, but I find that I just don't use that yeast very often anymore...life has its conundrums, for sure.