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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: beerphilmcd on June 22, 2020, 05:04:30 am

Title: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: beerphilmcd on June 22, 2020, 05:04:30 am
I’m sure some are familiar with the attached dry yeast spreadsheet. I noticed the wide general difference between Fermentis and Lallemand listed alcohol tolerances with Fermentis showing substantially lower numbers across the board.

I’m planning a 14+ abv beer to store which I’m calling 10 Year Ale. Just a challenge to push me. I’ve got the process covered, making a small beer the week before to build yeast, oxygen, etc. I would love input on yeast options. Super high gravity from white labs is the easy choice. Anyone have experience with dry yeast like bry97 in a 15% beer? Diamond lager and Nottingham are listed as being good to 14%. I’d never push Notty to that extent!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Y8e2PPEbT8eTy-jeGxKfmUsls5qQIpZHHRb3EjYPNXU/htmlview
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 22, 2020, 11:02:46 am
I don’t have specs, but S-189 is the yeast from Hurliman, supposedly the Swiss yeast used in Samiclaus.  It’s a lager yeast, but some have used it a bit warmer with success.
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: Descardeci on June 22, 2020, 12:21:16 pm
I’m sure some are familiar with the attached dry yeast spreadsheet. I noticed the wide general difference between Fermentis and Lallemand listed alcohol tolerances with Fermentis showing substantially lower numbers across the board.

I’m planning a 14+ abv beer to store which I’m calling 10 Year Ale. Just a challenge to push me. I’ve got the process covered, making a small beer the week before to build yeast, oxygen, etc. I would love input on yeast options. Super high gravity from white labs is the easy choice. Anyone have experience with dry yeast like bry97 in a 15% beer? Diamond lager and Nottingham are listed as being good to 14%. I’d never push Notty to that extent!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1Y8e2PPEbT8eTy-jeGxKfmUsls5qQIpZHHRb3EjYPNXU/htmlview

I would go with fermentis new yeast SafBrewTM HA-18, they say can go to 18%, but I never push pass the 10%, not with this yeast of course, but with the BE-256 from fermentis, I stopped after that with high alchool beers
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: denny on June 22, 2020, 02:09:58 pm
Just because a yeast is listed for a certain ABV or temp range doesn't mean that it won't work in different ranges.
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: beerphilmcd on June 23, 2020, 05:00:10 pm
Thanks Denny, Descardeci, & ynotbrusum. Curious if anyone has experience with 12+% beers with diamond or bry97?
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: Iliff Ave on June 23, 2020, 06:17:48 pm
Thanks Denny, Descardeci, & ynotbrusum. Curious if anyone has experience with 12+% beers with diamond or bry97?

It shows to have an alcohol tolerance of 13% ABV
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: a10t2 on June 23, 2020, 09:28:51 pm
I haven't had a chance to brew with BRY-97 (or homebrew in general for that matter) but I've brewed >15% beers with US-05, Nottingham, and S-04.
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: allenhuerta on June 24, 2020, 02:02:14 am
Just because a yeast is listed for a certain ABV or temp range doesn't mean that it won't work in different ranges.
Yeah, I can't remember where I heard it.. might have been Denny & Drew tbh... Or maybe it was Marshall Schott... But they said the yeast can't read the instructions on the outside of the package. They can't read, and they are inside the package. So telling them they can't ferment outside of the listed OG/FG/ABV tolerance is ridiculous.

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Title: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: BrewBama on June 24, 2020, 01:04:47 pm
I can’t imagine the manufacturer would put on the label the recommended fermentation temp and ABV range simply because yeast can’t read. What would be the advantage to limiting the usage spectrum of their product?  Less sales?  That’s ridiculous.

No, the ranges are listed because adverse reactions occur outside those ranges as determined by tasting panels and test batches.

Sure, a degree or three or an ABV percent here or there isn’t going to be as detrimental because nature doesn’t work that way. It’s not an on/off switch. It’s a gradual detriment to the finished product. I don’t know but it could even be exponential — the further you stray from mfr recommended ranges the more pronounced the adverse effect.

You might get away with success using products outside the mfr’s recommendation but then again you might not. My batches are running ~$40 or so a batch so I think I’ll color between the lines to attempt to have a better chance at success.  If I need a different range I’ll choose a different product suited for that range.

Don’t drink bleach simply because someone in authority tells you it’s OK.


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Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: erockrph on June 24, 2020, 01:05:36 pm
If you're looking for a clean ale yeast,  I'd recommend US-05 over BRY97 because it tends to attenuate a bit more. In a really big beer your challenge isn't so much the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, but making sure your FG gets low enough so the beer isn't sweet.

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Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: allenhuerta on June 24, 2020, 01:16:44 pm
Many companies for many products list safe ranges for use based on trial and testing, but it doesn't mean they won't work outside those ranges. Sure, maybe don't use a yeast designed for low abv beers on an imperial stout but if your yeast is rated for 14% and it hits 17%, the yeast was just doing it's job in the environment that you provided. They won't quit just because they are like, WE HIT THE MAX LIMIT! They will finish when they are done. To a determent? Probably not.

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Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: BrewBama on June 24, 2020, 01:31:29 pm
Many companies for many products list safe ranges for use based on trial and testing, but it doesn't mean they won't work outside those ranges. Sure, maybe don't use a yeast designed for low abv beers on an imperial stout but if your yeast is rated for 14% and it hits 17%, the yeast was just doing it's job in the environment that you provided. They won't quit just because they are like, WE HIT THE MAX LIMIT! They will finish when they are done. To a determent? Probably not.

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Completely agree


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Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: denny on June 24, 2020, 03:02:05 pm
I can’t imagine the manufacturer would put on the label the recommended fermentation temp and ABV range simply because yeast can’t read. What would be the advantage to limiting the usage spectrum of their product?  Less sales?  That’s ridiculous.

No, the ranges are listed because adverse reactions occur outside those ranges as determined by tasting panels and test batches.

Sure, a degree or three or an ABV percent here or there isn’t going to be as detrimental because nature doesn’t work that way. It’s not an on/off switch. It’s a gradual detriment to the finished product. I don’t know but it could even be exponential — the further you stray from mfr recommended ranges the more pronounced the adverse effect.

You might get away with success using products outside the mfr’s recommendation but then again you might not. My batches are running ~$40 or so a batch so I think I’ll color between the lines to attempt to have a better chance at success.  If I need a different range I’ll choose a different product suited for that range.

Don’t drink bleach simply because someone in authority tells you it’s OK.


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You seem to be assuming that the manufacturers test these things.  I can assure you that's often not the case.
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: denny on June 24, 2020, 03:02:51 pm
If you're looking for a clean ale yeast,  I'd recommend US-05 over BRY97 because it tends to attenuate a bit more. In a really big beer your challenge isn't so much the alcohol tolerance of the yeast, but making sure your FG gets low enough so the beer isn't sweet.

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Personally I don't find 05 nearly as clean as BRY97
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: BrewBama on June 24, 2020, 04:11:05 pm

Personally I don't find 05 nearly as clean as BRY97

+1


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Title: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: BrewBama on June 24, 2020, 07:06:12 pm
You seem to be assuming that the manufacturers test these things.  I can assure you that's often not the case.

Of course I cannot speak for the mfr, but my assumption is based on statements like this one: “In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort...” X “yeast exhibits...” and it goes on to list characteristics of their products.

Likewise, the extensive results presented by Fermentis at AHA Homebrew Convention points to very detailed product analysis by the mfr.

If they didn’t perform test batches and taste panels they wouldn’t have a “Standard Conditions Wort” and wouldn’t be able to provide performance or flavor and aroma characteristics.

Are you suggesting they just guessed? ...and hope they got it right?  The information is far too detailed to simply be a guess. Besides, I’m not sure guessing would be a very viable business model for the long term.


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Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: denny on June 24, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
You seem to be assuming that the manufacturers test these things.  I can assure you that's often not the case.

Of course I cannot speak for the mfr, but my assumption is based on statements like this one: “In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort...” X “yeast exhibits...” and it goes on to list characteristics of their products.

Likewise, the extensive results presented by Fermentis at AHA Homebrew Convention points to very detailed product analysis by the mfr.

If they didn’t perform test batches and taste panels they wouldn’t have a “Standard Conditions Wort” and wouldn’t be able to provide performance or flavor and aroma characteristics.

Are you suggesting they just guessed? ...and hope they got it right?  The information is far too detailed to simply be a guess. Besides, I’m not sure guessing would be a very viable business model for the long term.


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I know not all of them test everything to determine things like temp range.
Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: erockrph on June 24, 2020, 08:29:55 pm
You seem to be assuming that the manufacturers test these things.  I can assure you that's often not the case.

Of course I cannot speak for the mfr, but my assumption is based on statements like this one: “In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort...” X “yeast exhibits...” and it goes on to list characteristics of their products.

Likewise, the extensive results presented by Fermentis at AHA Homebrew Convention points to very detailed product analysis by the mfr.

If they didn’t perform test batches and taste panels they wouldn’t have a “Standard Conditions Wort” and wouldn’t be able to provide performance or flavor and aroma characteristics.

Are you suggesting they just guessed? ...and hope they got it right?  The information is far too detailed to simply be a guess. Besides, I’m not sure guessing would be a very viable business model for the long term.


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I know not all of them test everything to determine things like temp range.
If I went by manufacturers recommended temps I probably would have quit brewing years ago. For most of the yeasts I've used over the years I get my best results outside (or at the very edge of) manufacturers recommended temps. I also routinely get better attenuation and higher ABV's than listed by the manufacturer. Those numbers are good for comparison between strains, but don't necessarily give the best picture of what happens in my brewhouse.

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Title: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: BrewBama on June 24, 2020, 08:33:47 pm
You seem to be assuming that the manufacturers test these things.  I can assure you that's often not the case.

I know not all of them test everything to determine things like temp range.

I can’t account for all, but I assume the major players do extensive testing.

To satisfy myself, I shot Lallemand a note asking them to describe how they determine temp range and aroma/flavor characteristics. Here’s their reply:

“We ferment a standard beer wort at a range of temperatures in EBC-tubes in our lab. The optimal range is determined based on fermentation kinetics and sensory analysis.
 
Flavor and aroma analysis is done by GC and HPLC to measure the concentration of specific flavor compounds. We also validate flavor and aroma using a trained sensory panel, since the actual perception of a flavor is often different from what the chemical analysis would suggest.”

Doesn’t sound like a lot of guesswork to me.  It sounds like a very professional mfr trying to enable it’s customers to be successful thru testing resulting in a recommendation.

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Title: Re: High alcohol dry yeast options
Post by: denny on June 24, 2020, 08:45:14 pm
You seem to be assuming that the manufacturers test these things.  I can assure you that's often not the case.

Of course I cannot speak for the mfr, but my assumption is based on statements like this one: “In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort...” X “yeast exhibits...” and it goes on to list characteristics of their products.

Likewise, the extensive results presented by Fermentis at AHA Homebrew Convention points to very detailed product analysis by the mfr.

If they didn’t perform test batches and taste panels they wouldn’t have a “Standard Conditions Wort” and wouldn’t be able to provide performance or flavor and aroma characteristics.

Are you suggesting they just guessed? ...and hope they got it right?  The information is far too detailed to simply be a guess. Besides, I’m not sure guessing would be a very viable business model for the long term.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know not all of them test everything to determine things like temp range.
If I went by manufacturers recommended temps I probably would have quit brewing years ago. For most of the yeasts I've used over the years I get my best results outside (or at the very edge of) manufacturers recommended temps. I also routinely get better attenuation and higher ABV's than listed by the manufacturer. Those numbers are good for comparison between strains, but don't necessarily give the best picture of what happens in my brewhouse.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Agreed.