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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Fire Rooster on July 24, 2020, 01:28:59 pm

Title: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on July 24, 2020, 01:28:59 pm
Ok my beer, not coffee.
Bottled a batch yesterday using BRY-97 for the first time.
It was a haze monster.  Haziest beer I've ever made.
Was this BRY-97 ?, or something else ?
I don't mind hazy beer, want to understand where it came from.

Thanks
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Bob357 on July 24, 2020, 02:28:04 pm
I use BRY-97 fairly often and have always found it to produce clear beers given a reasonable amount of time. If you want anything other than blind speculation as to the cause, you'll need to post the recipe and your process.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: denny on July 24, 2020, 02:39:07 pm
I also don't have cloudiness issues with BRY97
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on July 24, 2020, 02:45:44 pm
I use BRY-97 fairly often and have always found it to produce clear beers given a reasonable amount of time. If you want anything other than blind speculation as to the cause, you'll need to post the recipe and your process.

Process is exactly the same for all batches done prior.  Variables noted below.

BRY-97 (Never used before)
3 week ferment @65 degrees.

80% Vienna
20% White Wheat

90 Minute Mash (first time doing 90 minutes)
60 Minute Boil

Centennial-Whole (9.5) (Never used before)
Amarillo-Pellet (7.7) (Never used before)
Simcoe-Pellet (12.7) (Never used before)

60 min = .5 oz Centennial
45 min = .5 oz Centennial
30 min = .5 Amarillo
20 min = .5 Simcoe
Flame-out = .5 each Amarillo, Simcoe

During bottling yesterday a heavy haze was noticed.

"given a reasonable amount of time"
Perhaps after 3 weeks bottle carb/condition it will settle out ?
My current guess, yeast is in suspension, did not pack down well in fermenter.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Andy Farke on July 24, 2020, 04:32:11 pm
I would bet it will settle out in the bottles...did you cold-crash the beer prior to bottling?
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: ulander6206 on July 24, 2020, 05:47:32 pm
Not sure what a haze monster is, however wheat malt will produce some haze.
Title: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: BrewBama on July 24, 2020, 05:53:55 pm
I use Bry-97 ~90% of the time. I guess you could say it’s my house strain.

When I keg the beer is never clear.

A few things I think help the clarity: 1) floating dip tube. As the beer clears from top to bottom I can begin drinking clear beer while the entire volume closer to the bottom might not be clear yet. The one keg that I have without a floating dip tube takes longer to get a clear pint. This will be N/A for bottling. 2) pH. I find that if I hit ~5.4 room temp pH in a sample taken at 20 min I get brilliantly clearer beer than if I miss the mark. 3) time. It does take a few weeks to get the brilliantly clear beer but it hasn’t failed to clear for me yet.

Your recipe looks great to me. I mash 90 min and boil 60 as well. 20% wheat might cause it to be hazy as well. I rarely (if ever) use wheat malt.


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Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: denny on July 24, 2020, 06:08:13 pm
I use Bry-97 ~90% of the time. I guess you could say it’s my house strain.

When I keg the beer is never clear.

A few things I think help the clarity: 1) floating dip tube. As the beer clears from top to bottom I can begin drinking clear beer while the entire volume closer to the bottom might not be clear yet. The one keg that I have without a floating dip tube takes longer to get a clear pint. This will be N/A for bottling. 2) pH. I find that if I hit ~5.4 room temp pH in a sample taken at 20 min I get brilliantly clearer beer than if I miss the mark. 3) time. It does take a few weeks to get the brilliantly clear beer but it hasn’t failed to clear for me yet.

Your recipe looks great to me. I mash 90 min and boil 60 as well. 20% wheat might cause it to be hazy as well. I rarely (if ever) use wheat malt.


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Guess as soon as I get through this batch of slurries I'll have to make a BRY batch to see if I remembered correctly or not
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on July 24, 2020, 06:18:52 pm
I would bet it will settle out in the bottles...did you cold-crash the beer prior to bottling?
No, I bottle at basement temps, right now 64
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on July 24, 2020, 06:19:35 pm
Not sure what a haze monster is, however wheat malt will produce some haze.

It's hiding under your bed and waiting for you to fall asleep.
One batch was 50% white wheat, and nowhere near as hazy.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on July 24, 2020, 06:21:45 pm
I use Bry-97 ~90% of the time. I guess you could say it’s my house strain.

When I keg the beer is never clear.

A few things I think help the clarity: 1) floating dip tube. As the beer clears from top to bottom I can begin drinking clear beer while the entire volume closer to the bottom might not be clear yet. The one keg that I have without a floating dip tube takes longer to get a clear pint. This will be N/A for bottling. 2) pH. I find that if I hit ~5.4 room temp pH in a sample taken at 20 min I get brilliantly clearer beer than if I miss the mark. 3) time. It does take a few weeks to get the brilliantly clear beer but it hasn’t failed to clear for me yet.

Your recipe looks great to me. I mash 90 min and boil 60 as well. 20% wheat might cause it to be hazy as well. I rarely (if ever) use wheat malt.


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I like white white, not red, but I agree 20% is too much, subdues the vienna too much. Reducing to 10% next 2 batches.
90% Vienna, 10% white wheat, one batch all simcoe hops, another with all armarillo hops.
I did a 100% vienna and loved it.  It had a slight bite ? to it, white wheat seems to do the trick.
I tried red wheat in a few batches at different percentages, and didn't care for it at all.
White wheat to me, seems to soften the edges ? but adding a mild taste, unlike red wheat which is harsh to me.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 07, 2020, 02:15:24 pm
I would bet it will settle out in the bottles...did you cold-crash the beer prior to bottling?

You were correct, haze substantially subsided, beer is getting clear.
You can see a layer on the bottom of the bottles.
This morning bottled a second batch using BRY-97.
Same thing, very murky from what I'm use to seeing when bottling.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 07, 2020, 02:19:14 pm
I use Bry-97 ~90% of the time. I guess you could say it’s my house strain.

When I keg the beer is never clear.

A few things I think help the clarity: 1) floating dip tube. As the beer clears from top to bottom I can begin drinking clear beer while the entire volume closer to the bottom might not be clear yet. The one keg that I have without a floating dip tube takes longer to get a clear pint. This will be N/A for bottling. 2) pH. I find that if I hit ~5.4 room temp pH in a sample taken at 20 min I get brilliantly clearer beer than if I miss the mark. 3) time. It does take a few weeks to get the brilliantly clear beer but it hasn’t failed to clear for me yet.

Your recipe looks great to me. I mash 90 min and boil 60 as well. 20% wheat might cause it to be hazy as well. I rarely (if ever) use wheat malt.


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Of all the yeasts to choose from, why do you mostly use BRY-97 ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: BrewBama on August 07, 2020, 02:36:32 pm
I like Bry-97 because it has a neutral flavor letting the hops and malt shine, it takes a week to ferment my avg 1.056-ish beers which fits my pipeline, it finished the job taking me to the 1.010 neighborhood consistently, and it’s clears very bright.


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Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: denny on August 07, 2020, 03:23:49 pm
I like Bry-97 because it has a neutral flavor letting the hops and malt shine, it takes a week to ferment my avg 1.056-ish beers which fits my pipeline, it finished the job taking me to the 1.010 neighborhood consistently, and it’s clears very bright.


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Exactly.  I far prefer it to US05
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 07, 2020, 04:07:32 pm
I like Bry-97 because it has a neutral flavor letting the hops and malt shine, it takes a week to ferment my avg 1.056-ish beers which fits my pipeline, it finished the job taking me to the 1.010 neighborhood consistently, and it’s clears very bright.


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I was perhaps too quick to judge this yeast.
It was like a muddy river bottling, but looks like it might be my clearest yet.
An early sampling will be in 1 1/2 weeks.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: BrewBama on August 08, 2020, 04:10:53 pm
I forgot to add: Through expression of a β-glucosidase enzyme, Bry- 97 can promote hop biotransformation and accentuate hop flavor and aroma. I’ve not dabbled there yet but I have plans to.


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Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 08, 2020, 08:40:13 pm
I forgot to add: Through expression of a β-glucosidase enzyme, Bry- 97 can promote hop biotransformation and accentuate hop flavor and aroma. I’ve not dabbled there yet but I have plans to.


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Whoa, that's a couple of high point scrabble words there.
I'll get back to you on that one.
Title: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: BrewBama on August 08, 2020, 11:39:41 pm
It’s just a fancy way to say the yeast has an enzyme that can enhance hop flavors if the hops are added to active fermentation.


Hand crafted in the TN Valley

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Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 09, 2020, 09:01:17 am
It’s just a fancy way to say the yeast has an enzyme that can enhance hop flavors if the hops are added to active fermentation.


Hand crafted in the TN Valley

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I don't dry hop.  You brought to my attention a procedure I was unaware of, and will do.
It's perfect for my process.  Wort, yeast, (and now hops) tossed in fermenter, not
touched for 3 weeks, pop airlock then bottle.

4.25 gal

7 lbs Vienna
1 lb White Wheat

50 min .5oz Amarillo Pellets (8.5AA)
35 min .5oz
25 min .5 oz
.5oz Tossed in fermenter with wort & yeast.

Will use one of the two yeasts I have on hand, US-05 or S-04.

Thanks

http://brulosophy.com/2017/06/12/dry-hop-at-yeast-pitch-vs-standard-dry-hop-in-neipa-exbeeriment-results/
Title: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: BrewBama on August 09, 2020, 11:53:31 am
Only certain yeasts have a high enough enzyme activity to make the effort worthwhile. 

Fermentis recommends S-04, S-33, and K-97 as good choices but not -05.  https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/

Bry-97, Belle Saison, and New England IPA from Lallemand have been reported as good choices also. https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Also, there’s a lot of discussion out there of when to pitch hops in fermentation. It’s all over the map.

The general consensus has landed at ~3 days before full attenuation then package the beer quickly under low O2 conditions to preserve the effort. The idea is CO2 generated during fermentation actually scrubs hop flavors from the beer. But pitching later, as activity is subsiding has less scrubbing effect but still gives protection by yeast activity from the O2 uptake potential from opening the fermenter.  Leaving it sit idle in a fermenter after activity is complete is not recommended.

....and, I understand some tasting panels preferred traditional dry hopped beers over those hopped during active fermentation suggesting this technique is not a silver bullet.

Anyway, have fun experimenting!


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Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: denny on August 09, 2020, 01:33:09 pm
Only certain yeasts have a high enough enzyme activity to make the effort worthwhile. 

Fermentis recommends S-04, S-33, and K-97 as good choices but not -05.  https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/

Bry-97, Belle Saison, and New England IPA from Lallemand have been reported as good choices also. https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Also, there’s a lot of discussion out there of when to pitch hops in fermentation. It’s all over the map.

The general consensus has landed at ~3 days before full attenuation then package the beer quickly under low O2 conditions to preserve the effort. The idea is CO2 generated during fermentation actually scrubs hop flavors from the beer. But pitching later, as activity is subsiding has less scrubbing effect but still gives protection by yeast activity from the O2 uptake potential from opening the fermenter.  Leaving it sit idle in a fermenter after activity is complete is not recommended.

....and, I understand some tasting panels preferred traditional dry hopped beers over those hopped during active fermentation suggesting this technique is not a silver bullet.

Anyway, have fun experimenting!


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After discussing the 48 hour cold dry hop ,method on the podcast, we heard from commercial breweries who have done to that for their NEIPA.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 09, 2020, 01:42:29 pm
Only certain yeasts have a high enough enzyme activity to make the effort worthwhile. 

Fermentis recommends S-04, S-33, and K-97 as good choices but not -05.  https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/

Bry-97, Belle Saison, and New England IPA from Lallemand have been reported as good choices also. https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Also, there’s a lot of discussion out there of when to pitch hops in fermentation. It’s all over the map.

The general consensus has landed at ~3 days before full attenuation then package the beer quickly under low O2 conditions to preserve the effort. The idea is CO2 generated during fermentation actually scrubs hop flavors from the beer. But pitching later, as activity is subsiding has less scrubbing effect but still gives protection by yeast activity from the O2 uptake potential from opening the fermenter.  Leaving it sit idle in a fermenter after activity is complete is not recommended.

....and, I understand some tasting panels preferred traditional dry hopped beers over those hopped during active fermentation suggesting this technique is not a silver bullet.

Anyway, have fun experimenting!


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Thanks !, S-04 it is.
Tossing .5 oz at the beginning of fermentation, and taste for myself
what goes on.  Thanks for the tips.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: erockrph on August 09, 2020, 02:24:46 pm
Only certain yeasts have a high enough enzyme activity to make the effort worthwhile. 

Fermentis recommends S-04, S-33, and K-97 as good choices but not -05.  https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/

Bry-97, Belle Saison, and New England IPA from Lallemand have been reported as good choices also. https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Also, there’s a lot of discussion out there of when to pitch hops in fermentation. It’s all over the map.

The general consensus has landed at ~3 days before full attenuation then package the beer quickly under low O2 conditions to preserve the effort. The idea is CO2 generated during fermentation actually scrubs hop flavors from the beer. But pitching later, as activity is subsiding has less scrubbing effect but still gives protection by yeast activity from the O2 uptake potential from opening the fermenter.  Leaving it sit idle in a fermenter after activity is complete is not recommended.

....and, I understand some tasting panels preferred traditional dry hopped beers over those hopped during active fermentation suggesting this technique is not a silver bullet.

Anyway, have fun experimenting!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I haven't tried it yet, but Lallemand reports that their Köln yeast is also capable of performing hop biotransformation as well:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 13, 2020, 01:13:45 pm
Only certain yeasts have a high enough enzyme activity to make the effort worthwhile. 

Fermentis recommends S-04, S-33, and K-97 as good choices but not -05.  https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/

Bry-97, Belle Saison, and New England IPA from Lallemand have been reported as good choices also. https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Also, there’s a lot of discussion out there of when to pitch hops in fermentation. It’s all over the map.

The general consensus has landed at ~3 days before full attenuation then package the beer quickly under low O2 conditions to preserve the effort. The idea is CO2 generated during fermentation actually scrubs hop flavors from the beer. But pitching later, as activity is subsiding has less scrubbing effect but still gives protection by yeast activity from the O2 uptake potential from opening the fermenter.  Leaving it sit idle in a fermenter after activity is complete is not recommended.

....and, I understand some tasting panels preferred traditional dry hopped beers over those hopped during active fermentation suggesting this technique is not a silver bullet.

Anyway, have fun experimenting!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I haven't tried it yet, but Lallemand reports that their Köln yeast is also capable of performing hop biotransformation as well:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/

Thanks, will give it a try sometime this fall/winter.
Added to my brew-cue.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: BrewBama on August 13, 2020, 02:22:03 pm

I haven't tried it yet, but Lallemand reports that their Köln yeast is also capable of performing hop biotransformation as well:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/

I remember that now. Makes sense given K-97 has the gene.


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Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 13, 2020, 08:48:09 pm
First taste using BRY-97 yeast, Simcoe & Amarillo hops.
It's still hazy, not concerned. However the passion fruit
taste is overpowering, from the Simcoe ? I could do without.  It's a very
good beer (nice change, not great), but not what I'm looking for in a beer.

.5 oz Centennial-Pellets @60min, 1 oz Amarillo-Pellets @ 10min, and 1 oz Simcoe-Pellets @ 5min.
Hop spider removed after boil. Simcoe seems to overpower the malt, perhaps 1 oz was too much for a 4.25 gallon batch.
Satisfied for getting the hop flavor, have to figure out which one I like, and back it off a bit.

It tastes as if I'm biting into a passion fruit, I'll call it Passion Ale.
It may be the yeast making the hops very pronounced.
Magnum and Nugget are up next, never tried those.
Galena is on my list to try also, for futures batches.
Title: Re: Clouds In My Coffee
Post by: Fire Rooster on August 13, 2020, 09:21:15 pm
Only certain yeasts have a high enough enzyme activity to make the effort worthwhile. 

Fermentis recommends S-04, S-33, and K-97 as good choices but not -05.  https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/

Bry-97, Belle Saison, and New England IPA from Lallemand have been reported as good choices also. https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LAL-bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

Also, there’s a lot of discussion out there of when to pitch hops in fermentation. It’s all over the map.

The general consensus has landed at ~3 days before full attenuation then package the beer quickly under low O2 conditions to preserve the effort. The idea is CO2 generated during fermentation actually scrubs hop flavors from the beer. But pitching later, as activity is subsiding has less scrubbing effect but still gives protection by yeast activity from the O2 uptake potential from opening the fermenter.  Leaving it sit idle in a fermenter after activity is complete is not recommended.

....and, I understand some tasting panels preferred traditional dry hopped beers over those hopped during active fermentation suggesting this technique is not a silver bullet.

Anyway, have fun experimenting!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I haven't tried it yet, but Lallemand reports that their Köln yeast is also capable of performing hop biotransformation as well:

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-koln-kolsch-style-ale-yeast/

Their pitching rate calculator is two packets for 4.25 gal, 4.5% ABV