Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: bluesman on August 31, 2010, 10:47:26 PM

Title: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on August 31, 2010, 10:47:26 PM
I made a Munich Helles over the weekend and pitched at 46ish.  I bumped up the keezer to 49 today.  I will bump it one more notch tomorrow to settle at 50.  I have a Johnson contoller that has an operating range of +/- 2 degrees.  I'm using a slurry of WLP830.

What's the consensus on pitch/ferm temps for this lager?
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: boulderbrewer on August 31, 2010, 10:59:44 PM
I like to ferment cold, the warmest I go with my lager yeasts is 48 with a 1 degree differential. Thats how I roll.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: majorvices on August 31, 2010, 11:17:11 PM
48 ... but what you are doing Ron is fine.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 01, 2010, 01:05:05 AM
I was thinking of holding at 46 but changed my mind last minute.  This is a third generation yeast and I want to see how long I can stretch it out.  Maybe 10 or more generations...we'll see.

I'm thinking about a Dopplebock next.  :-\
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: joeysmokedporter on September 01, 2010, 01:07:23 AM
agree with the others.  I like to pitch cool --mid high 40s-- and gradually bring up temp to low 50s, which sounds consistent with your approach.  Ester formation is driven mostly by growth in first two days, during which your temps should have been sufficiently cool to suppress.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: tschmidlin on September 01, 2010, 02:39:18 AM
I don't think you'll want to go to 10 generations:
http://www.asbcnet.org/journal/abstracts/2003/0205-01a.htm

It's been a while since I read the whole article, but I seem to remember a rule of thumb of 7 generations for lager yeasts.  If I have time I'll go through it again.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 01, 2010, 11:15:04 AM
Good info Tom.  Thanks.

I'd like to read that study. 

I am curious to find how many I can get without any noticeable degredation of beer quality.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: blatz on September 01, 2010, 01:35:12 PM
47-48df is what I've been doing for all my light lagers, ramping up at the end to finsh out.

Good info Tom.  Thanks.

I'd like to read that study.  

I am curious to find how many I can get without any noticeable degredation of beer quality.

don't forget you can branch out each generation quite a bit and keep that yeast going for a long time - I usually save the slurry I don't repitch from Gen 1 and both Gen 2s (assuming I split Gen 1 in half) which gives me a lot to work with.   in fact, I never even use all of it - wind up dumping some.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 01, 2010, 01:37:20 PM
47-48df is what I've been doing for all my light lagers, ramping up at the end to finsh out.

Good info Tom.  Thanks.

I'd like to read that study.  

I am curious to find how many I can get without any noticeable degredation of beer quality.

don't forget you can branch out each generation quite a bit and keep that yeast going for a long time - I usually save the slurry I don't repitch from Gen 1 and both Gen 2s (assuming I split Gen 1 in half) which gives me a lot to work with.   in fact, I never even use all of it - wind up dumping some.

Another good idea Paul!
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 01, 2010, 09:58:55 PM
Currently i am pitching at 46F and keep it there for a few days.
I have to say that lag time is very long and I would consider this as a negative issue.

Pitching at 46F and let it raise to 48F should be just fine.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 01, 2010, 10:16:48 PM
Currently i am pitching at 46F and keep it there for a few days.
I have to say that lag time is very long and I would consider this as a negative issue.

Pitching at 46F and let it raise to 48F should be just fine.

I am currently experiencing a 2+ day lag which is typical but I expect it to be on it's way any time now.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 02, 2010, 09:48:38 PM
I pitched Monday morning and only today (3 days later) I could see strong sign of fermentation.
It is nerve racking.

I might have to start fermenting Ales  ;)
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 02, 2010, 10:10:34 PM
Finally last night I had pretty good fermentation also three days later.  Lagers require patience.  Something that doesn't come naturally for me.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: denny on September 03, 2010, 03:48:57 PM
I might have to start fermenting Ales  ;)

Has hell frozen over?   :o
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 03, 2010, 05:53:11 PM
I might have to start fermenting Ales  ;)

Has hell frozen over?   :o

I think it may be on it's way.  :D
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 03, 2010, 09:41:32 PM
I might have to start fermenting Ales  ;)

Has hell frozen over?   :o

I think it may be on it's way.  :D
Just can not take a pressure any more...  ;D
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: joeysmokedporter on September 03, 2010, 09:50:39 PM
I might have to start fermenting Ales  ;)

Has hell frozen over?   :o

I think it may be on it's way.  :D

My last hell(es) did freeze over.  Wish I'd thought of this pun, could have named it so!  fortunately the beer turned out fine after it thawed and finished lagering.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 03, 2010, 09:57:05 PM
I might have to start fermenting Ales  ;)

Has hell frozen over?   :o

I think it may be on it's way.  :D

My last hell(es) did freeze over.  Wish I'd thought of this pun, could have named it so!  fortunately the beer turned out fine after it thawed and finished lagering.

funny...didn't think of that one.   :D
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: dhacker on September 03, 2010, 10:02:32 PM
Sorta along the same vein . .

What's everyone's experience as far as lager exothermic increase during active fermentation? About the same as ales? In the past I set the ferment chamber 3 to 5 degrees lower to compensate for what I guessed was going on inside the fermenter. Now that I finally have a thermowell, I guess I'll find out for sure!  Just curious on other's experiences. 
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 03, 2010, 11:59:28 PM
I do have temp probe on the fermenter so I do not know.
You are growing less yeast so In theory would not you generate less yeast?
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 04, 2010, 01:43:17 AM
I also have a thermocouple attached to the side of the fermenter.  This will keep any exothermic temp rise in check.
I'm not sure how this will effect the yeast growth but I think it helps keep the clean lager character in check.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 04, 2010, 02:56:20 PM
You are growing less yeast so In theory would not you generate less yeast?
I wanted to say:
You are growing less yeast so In theory would not you generate less heat?

I guess I should read what I type  :-[
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: dhacker on September 04, 2010, 03:33:23 PM
Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. (which happens a lot) Experience has shown when fermenting ales, the temperature inside the fermentor can be anywhere from 5 to 8 degrees warmer from exothermic processes than the surrounding ambient temperature during the active fermentation stage. I was curious if that is what folks have found to be the case with their lager yeast as well.
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 04, 2010, 04:08:52 PM
Never measured it but I think it depends on OG, yeast strain, ambient temp, etc..
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: tom on September 04, 2010, 05:49:06 PM
As above, and the fermentation is going half as fast so I would assume half the exothermia?
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 04, 2010, 05:53:50 PM
As above, and the fermentation is going half as fast so I would assume half the exothermia?

Agreed it's not working as fast therefore it's not sweating as much.  8)
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: dhacker on September 04, 2010, 06:00:08 PM
Like I said . . it is mostly a curiosity thing since I now have a thermowell and can find out for sure myself!  :) I'm 34 minutes away from flameout on a PU clone and the ferment chamber is sitting at 48 degrees. I'm gonna throw a digital thermometer in the chamber and see how much difference there is between it and  the fermentor's bowels when it gets going.. I WILL report back!

 :D
 
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: bluesman on September 04, 2010, 06:57:26 PM
Like I said . . it is mostly a curiosity thing since I now have a thermowell and can find out for sure myself!  :) I'm 34 minutes away from flameout on a PU clone and the ferment chamber is sitting at 48 degrees. I'm gonna throw a digital thermometer in the chamber and see how much difference there is between it and  the fermentor's bowels when it gets going.. I WILL report back!

 :D
 

Look forward to your findings!
Title: Re: Munich Helles fermentation temp?
Post by: woolybuggerbrew on September 04, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
Look forward to your results.  I use the temperature outside of the fermentor, not "in it's bowels" via a "Low tech lagering System".