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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: skyler on September 30, 2020, 05:15:42 PM

Title: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on September 30, 2020, 05:15:42 PM
So I have encountered enough discussion about pitching rates for Lallemand strains, and have made use of their pitching rate calculator https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/brewers-corner/brewing-tools/pitching-rate-calculator/ (https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/canada/brewers-corner/brewing-tools/pitching-rate-calculator/), that I am curious how I should use my newly-purchased sachets of Verdant IPA, New England and Koln.

For the Koln, I figure I will either make a starter (totally negating the purpose of buying dry yeast) or just try a "light Kolsch" at around 1.040 fermented in the low 60s.

For the others, I figure I can either build starters or blend them and brew an IPA with both "Hazy IPA" strains or I can brew a much smaller "starter beer" or something where I would be less upset by the likely underpitching-related flaws (like a brown ale or porter).

Or is this just a weird gimmick designed to get us to buy twice as much yeast?

Has anyone else brewed a >1.060 beer with one of these strains pitching a single sachet? It's just weird that they would even sell it this way, TBH.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: denny on September 30, 2020, 05:27:38 PM
Do they recommend making starters?  That's usually not recommended for dry yeast.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on September 30, 2020, 05:33:33 PM
Do they recommend making starters?  That's usually not recommended for dry yeast.

They don't even mention starters as an option. They just recommend 2 packs for a moderate-gravity pitch. I realize many of the benefits of dry yeast are lost by making a starter, but if you're operating with half as many cells (or less), then you have options to consider. For the Verdant IPA New England, they actually recommend 3 sachets for 20L of 1.060 beer.
Title: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on September 30, 2020, 05:49:10 PM
Are you making 10 gal? When I poke a 5.5 gal batch of 1.060 beer using Verdent into their pitch rate calculator I get ~15 grams.  That’s fairly routine across their Ale product line. I would weight out ~15 grams, vacuum seal the remaining yeast in the pack, and refrigerate it for use in the next brew.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: denny on September 30, 2020, 05:57:15 PM
Do they recommend making starters?  That's usually not recommended for dry yeast.

They don't even mention starters as an option. They just recommend 2 packs for a moderate-gravity pitch. I realize many of the benefits of dry yeast are lost by making a starter, but if you're operating with half as many cells (or less), then you have options to consider. For the Verdant IPA New England, they actually recommend 3 sachets for 20L of 1.060 beer.
[/quote

It's not just that benefits are lost...there could be detriments too.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on September 30, 2020, 06:44:51 PM
Are you making 10 gal? When I poke a 5.5 gal batch of 1.060 beer using Verdent into their pitch rate calculator I get ~15 grams.  That’s fairly routine across their Ale product line. I would weight out ~15 grams, vacuum seal the remaining yeast in the pack, and refrigerate it for use in the next brew.


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Try the rest of their product line. New England and Koln come out differently. I didn't realize Verdant IPA shows the same numbers as BRY-97 and Nottingham -- had I spotted that, I probably would have kept Verdant IPA out of this post. I am comfortable, based on repeated personal experience, with pitching one pack of BRY-97 into 5.5 gallons of <1.065 beer. Usually if I am brewing something stronger than that, I will pitch two packs or just use some 2nd generation slurry. I know it takes twice as much for a lager, so I generally pitch 2 packs for a standard-strength lager. While I had hoped Koln would outperform K97, if it is half as many cells, I am probably more likely to stick with K97. I definitely balk at the idea that New England requires as much as 3 sachets for a 5 gallon batch of moderate-gravity wort. At that point it's no longer convenient or cost-effective to use -- I would rather just buy a pack of Imperial Barbarian. But since I already have a pack, I wonder what I ought to do with it. My thinking right now is using it for a dark mild and then pitching the 2nd generation into an IPA.

Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on September 30, 2020, 06:59:11 PM
That is odd that those two ale strains’ pitching rate is 100g/hL to achieve a minimum of 1 million viable cells/mL.  I’d shoot Lallemand a note and double check their logic. They may have a decent explanation.  ...but they may have just as likely made a mistake.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: roger on September 30, 2020, 09:25:50 PM
You are right, the Verdant pitch rate seems to be similar to their other ale yeasts. Personally, I would be comfortable pitching 1 sachet in 5 gallons of 1.060 wort. That's me, YMMV.

The Koln seems to be an outlier. 28.4 grams of dry yeast for the same 5 gallons of 1.060 wort, doesn't pass the reasonability test, for their yeast. Agree with Denny, they may have a typo.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on October 01, 2020, 05:31:44 PM
Here's what Lallemand told me:

"Thanks for your question. Indeed, the pitching rates for the LalBrew New England and LalBrew Koln strains are higher. These are more sensitive strains and difficult to produce, and as such the viability of the dried yeast is lower. To achieve optimal fermentation performance, we recommend a higher pitching rate for these strains."

So I think it really is just a low cell count per package. It seems like lots of brewers are likely to be confused and underpitch. I sent a follow-up email asking about making a starter.

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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 01, 2020, 05:34:12 PM
Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 01, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.

The fluid drying process is hard of on yeast cells, which is why there are fewer dry strains than liquid strains.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on October 01, 2020, 11:08:27 PM
From Lallemand:

"Absolutely, you could make a starter from dry yeast, no problems with that. There are advantages to using dry yeast directly (consistent pitch rates, no need to count cells, no need to aerate the wort) that will be lost if you propagate in a starter, but we do indeed have some customers who choose to propagate some of our lower viability strains."


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 01, 2020, 11:44:00 PM
Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.

The fluid drying process is hard of on yeast cells, which is why there are fewer dry strains than liquid strains.
I agree ..but the “harder on one strain over the other” is what I found interesting.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on October 02, 2020, 12:01:10 AM
From my perspective, if these strains perform AS WELL as their liquid equivalents, then there is the benefit of easier shipping and storability, as well as the possible slight cost savings. As I have no true LHBS and summer weather here is very hot, it's potentially worth it to keep a couple packs of these around -- I'll know for sure when I have brewed with them. I presume I can just make simple 2L SNS starters and pitch at high krausen like I do with liquid yeast.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 02, 2020, 02:14:30 AM
I don’t have a local LHBS that stocks liquid yeast either. That’s why I went with dry yeast years ago. I often say I was shipped one too many liquid yeast packs that was DOA. Luckily, dry yeast has come a long way from the bad old days.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: roger on October 02, 2020, 12:38:23 PM
Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.

The fluid drying process is hard of on yeast cells, which is why there are fewer dry strains than liquid strains.
I agree ..but the “harder on one strain over the other” is what I found interesting.

Much thanks to Skyler for starting this thread. This is valuable information, and a good lesson to learn (or re-learn) especially since yeast make beer.

I've never used either of these strains. Likely if so, since they are both ale yeasts, I would have blindly pitched one sachet, a significant underpitch. Likely enough to affect the beer. Lesson learned, especially when using an unfamiliar strain, spend more time on the Lallemand site, consult with their yeast calculator, and don't be afraid to sent them a note with questions.

One might have assumed (me) that when using dry yeast from the same lab, the cell count in 11 grams = 11 grams regardless of strain. Wrong.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: denny on October 02, 2020, 02:50:05 PM
Interesting that these would be more difficult to produce than others resulting in lower viability.

The fluid drying process is hard of on yeast cells, which is why there are fewer dry strains than liquid strains.

THIS^^^^ I guess I don't find it at all remarkable.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Cliffs on October 02, 2020, 04:56:54 PM
Here's what Lallemand told me:

"Thanks for your question. Indeed, the pitching rates for the LalBrew New England and LalBrew Koln strains are higher. These are more sensitive strains and difficult to produce, and as such the viability of the dried yeast is lower. To achieve optimal fermentation performance, we recommend a higher pitching rate for these strains."

So I think it really is just a low cell count per package. It seems like lots of brewers are likely to be confused and underpitch. I sent a follow-up email asking about making a starter.

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they should then give us more yeast per satchet IMO.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 02, 2020, 09:30:11 PM
One might have assumed (me) that when using dry yeast from the same lab, the cell count in 11 grams = 11 grams regardless of strain. Wrong.

They packages do contain roughly the same cell count.  Where they differ is in the number of cells that are viable. As I have always said, the only cell that matters is viable cell count.  Dry brewer's yeast is manufactured using the technology as active dry baker's yeast.  The difference is that purity is not as critical with baker's yeast. Unlike liquid yeast where the propagation medium is produced, inoculated, and allowed to ferment out, dry yeast production is a continuous process with wort and O2 entering on one end and dry yeast coming out of the other end. Both yeast production in a bioreactor and yeast drying in a fluidized bed dryer operate in tandem on a continuous basis.  It is quite hi-tech.  The reality that some yeast strains survive the drying process better than others.  If one performs a Google search using the search terms "fluidized bed drying yeast viability," one will find many publications dedicated to the subject.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 02, 2020, 10:24:21 PM
If one performs a Google search using the search terms "fluidized bed drying yeast viability," one will find many publications dedicated to the subject.

I found this article a bit less scientific and a little more lay-brewer: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/demystifying-active-dry-yeast/


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Cliffs on October 03, 2020, 12:04:56 AM
One might have assumed (me) that when using dry yeast from the same lab, the cell count in 11 grams = 11 grams regardless of strain. Wrong.

They packages do contain roughly the same cell count.  Where they differ is in the number of cells that are viable. As I have always said, the only cell that matters is viable cell count.  Dry brewer's yeast is manufactured using the technology as active dry baker's yeast.  The difference is that purity is not as critical with baker's yeast. Unlike liquid yeast where the propagation medium is produced, inoculated, and allow to ferment out, dry yeast production is a continuous process with wort and O2 entering on one end and dry yeast coming out of the other end. Both yeast production in a bioreactor and yeast drying in a fluidized bed drying operate in tandem on a continuous basis.  It is quite hi-tech.  The reality that some yeast strains survive the drying process better than others.  If one performs a Google search using the search terms "fluidized bed drying yeast viability," one will find many publications dedicated to the subject.

wouldnt simply selecting the cells that survive drying prevent these satchets of yeast that have a ton of non viable cells in them?
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: pete b on October 03, 2020, 12:21:55 AM
Here's what Lallemand told me:

"Thanks for your question. Indeed, the pitching rates for the LalBrew New England and LalBrew Koln strains are higher. These are more sensitive strains and difficult to produce, and as such the viability of the dried yeast is lower. To achieve optimal fermentation performance, we recommend a higher pitching rate for these strains."

So I think it really is just a low cell count per package. It seems like lots of brewers are likely to be confused and underpitch. I sent a follow-up email asking about making a starter.

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they should then give us more yeast per satchet IMO.
I agree with this^^^^^^
It’s such an expectation that one pack is for 5 gallons of wort that they should pack more per unit and charge accordingly. I bet a lot of their customers didn’t do the due diligence that the OP did and were disappointed.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 03, 2020, 01:22:39 AM
wouldnt simply selecting the cells that survive drying prevent these satchets of yeast that have a ton of non viable cells in them?

Clearly, that is easier said than done; otherwise, they would be doing it.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 03, 2020, 03:42:29 AM
...
It’s such an expectation that one pack is for 5 gallons of wort that they should pack more per unit and charge accordingly. ...

I’ve found they never recommend only 11g for the qty and SG of the wort I make on average. They normally recommend ~14-15g for my avg Ales and more for Lagers.

Most brewers just disregard the mfr recommendation.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: pete b on October 03, 2020, 01:36:26 PM
...
It’s such an expectation that one pack is for 5 gallons of wort that they should pack more per unit and charge accordingly. ...

I’ve found they never recommend only 11g for the qty and SG of the wort I make on average. They normally recommend ~14-15g for my avg Ales and more for Lagers.

Most brewers just disregard the mfr recommendation.


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Your right, but I still find it odd.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on October 05, 2020, 11:10:57 PM
While I understand how offering these strains in the manner they do makes perfect sense for pro breweries who may be willing to spend twice as much to buy double the yeast in order to brew with Conan or get a dry Kolsch yeast and where the pricing with liquid yeast vs dry is greatly imbalanced, to the extent that twice as much New England is still much cheaper than a brewery pitch of Conan.

But when it takes more than two sachets to get the amount of viable cells in one pack of IOY-A04 Barbarian, and the retail pricing makes the single pack of Barbarian cheaper than three packs of New England, then there is something amiss. I still appreciate having these dry strains available, but I would be lying if I said I didn't feel slightly cheated by getting less than half as many cells for the same price as I get BRY-97 or US-05. And I would rather they simply sold 25g sachets if that is the appropriate amount of cells.

Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: roger on October 06, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
I don't feel cheated, just naïve (or maybe mentally lazy) that I didn't understand this and made a bad assumption instead of fully understanding. As this thread shows, their website does have this information, its just that you have to know to look for it. The technical data sheets are on all the on-line shops show the amount of viable yeast cells. I did a quick check on one site and found the Lallemand Belle Saison is listed as having 5X more viable yeast cells than their Koln. It also has a link to their yeast calculator, if desired.

It just that thousands of homebrewers likely buy and use 1 sachet from their LHBS, without realizing they could be underpitching. After a bad experience, they may be turned off by Lallemand. IMHO, it would be to Lallemand's advantage to make the viability difference more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: narvin on October 06, 2020, 01:46:02 PM
Cynically, they also might be thinking that brewers who don't know much about yeast also won't be able to tell if a beer had a suboptimal fermentation.  So, it opens up the market for them to sell it at a price that the casual brewer would buy.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: erockrph on October 06, 2020, 03:26:39 PM
It just that thousands of homebrewers likely buy and use 1 sachet from their LHBS, without realizing they could be underpitching. After a bad experience, they may be turned off by Lallemand. IMHO, it would be to Lallemand's advantage to make the viability difference more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

I agree with this. In general, I think the average homebrewer uses 1 packet for a typical 5-gallon batch of homebrew. I would think that it would be in Lallemand's best interest to make their packet size be equivalent to their recommended pitching rate for 5 gallons of a 1.050-1.060ish beer.
Title: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 06, 2020, 08:12:28 PM
... more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

It’s printed right on the package (see below) “Pitching Rate 1.0g/L”  Not sure how much more obvious they could be. 5 gal = 18.9 liters so.... 18.9 grams.

I brew 5.5 gal in the FV so I’ll end with 5 gal in the keg. Therefore, even without a pitching calculator, I know I’ll need to pitch ~21g of these strains.

No yeast mfr can predict every user situation. Liquid yeast mfr’s recommend starters, dry yeast mfr’s recommend pitch rate by weight.

 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201006/3abd2c06cc4b3e7557390a5e293bb279.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201006/4cafa0298ca9220aad69b74224f3736f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: roger on October 06, 2020, 08:31:43 PM
Gotta admit, I missed that. You are correct, can't blame the mfr. Thanks.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: ynotbrusum on October 07, 2020, 12:11:11 AM
I pitched Diamond yeast for the first time last Saturday.  I rehydrated 3 sachets into 5.5 gallons of Pilsner wort (instructions called for 1-2 g/l) and added it as it attemperated to wort temp. Almost needless to say the beer was at 1.012 this morning (Tuesday).  I expect it to finish around 1.008-1.010 if it acts like 34/70.  I will be harvesting and stepping up to a 10 gallon batch with the slurry.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: narvin on October 07, 2020, 02:38:39 AM
... more obvious for the less experienced brewers. Many may choose to ignore the mfr's recommendation, but at least its a conscious, informed choice.

It’s printed right on the package (see below) “Pitching Rate 1.0g/L”  Not sure how much more obvious they could be. 5 gal = 18.9 liters so.... 18.9 grams.

I brew 5.5 gal in the FV so I’ll end with 5 gal in the keg. Therefore, even without a pitching calculator, I know I’ll need to pitch ~21g of these strains.

No yeast mfr can predict every user situation. Liquid yeast mfr’s recommend starters, dry yeast mfr’s recommend pitch rate by weight.

 (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201006/3abd2c06cc4b3e7557390a5e293bb279.jpg)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201006/4cafa0298ca9220aad69b74224f3736f.jpg)

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Americans don't know metric  ;D

How many brewers go to the shop, pick up one pack of yeast, and that's that?  Even liquid yeast is good for 5 gallons of average gravity wort if it's fresh these days.  Obviously this was not the case in the past, but I see this as a step backwards, and a deliberate breach of trust for what used to be a relatively foolproof alternative to liquid yeast.  Manufacturers can do whatever they want, but they should be prepared for some poor reviews by entry level brewers.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 08, 2020, 04:45:00 AM
Americans don't know metric  ;D

Sadly, that statement is true.  The U.S. is one of the few industrialized nations that has not adopted the metric system.  I will say that once one switches to using the metric system for brewing, it is difficult to go back to using U.S. standard units of measure, at least for culturing. Every unit of measure in the metric system is base 10 and a milliliter of water weighs one gram.  A fluid ounce weighs more than a dry ounce; therefore, making a 10% weight by volume (w/v) solution is not nearly as straight forward using U.S. units of measure.  Since a milliliter of water weighs one gram, a 1L 10% w/v solution requires 1000 * 0.10 = 100 grams of dry malt.   Plus, degrees plato is weight by weight (w/w). However, since the solvent is water and a milliliter of water weighs one gram, w/w is equal to w/v when brewing.  For example, a 1.040 solution is 10 degree plato solution, which makes it a 10% w/v solution.  A simple test to verify this information is to dissolve 100 grams of DME in a 1L solution and take its gravity.  Making a 1L 1.030 solution is just as easy.  An S.G. of 1.030 is 7.5 degrees plato, which means that is a 7.5% w/v solution.  Taking 7.5% of 1000 yields 75 grams of DME.  I challenge anyone to try that with U.S. standard units of measure.  It is not nearly as straight forward.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 08, 2020, 01:17:58 PM
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: narvin on October 08, 2020, 01:32:21 PM
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Sure, but I guarantee you that 1) many newer brewers don't read those instructions, they just buy what the person working at the store sells them.  And 2) They have a marketing department that understands what the impact would be if they instead wrote "use 2-3 packs for 5 gallons of beer".  I think my point stands.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: denny on October 08, 2020, 02:57:49 PM
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Sure, but I guarantee you that 1) many newer brewers don't read those instructions, they just buy what the person working at the store sells them.  And 2) They have a marketing department that understands what the impact would be if they instead wrote "use 2-3 packs for 5 gallons of beer".  I think my point stands.

I'd like to see some evidence to support your marketing claim.  Based on the people I know there I find it hard to believe unnless you have info I'm unaware of.
Title: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 08, 2020, 03:42:05 PM
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.


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Sure, but I guarantee you that 1) many newer brewers don't read those instructions, they just buy what the person working at the store sells them.  And 2) They have a marketing department that understands what the impact would be if they instead wrote "use 2-3 packs for 5 gallons of beer".  I think my point stands.
I actually don’t doubt either point.  In fact, I’d imagine one pack will work just fine. It might take a bit longer or be a bit sluggish. ..but I dunno, maybe not.

I’m just sayin 1) the mfr has recommended a certain pitch rate printed right on the package for the consumer and 2) if the buyer (or sales person in your example) takes two seconds to research their batch size expressed in liters, they’d better understand the mfr recommendation.

As I said before, most brewers just disregard the dry yeast mfr recommendation anyway.

As an example, in John Palmer’s book How to Brew, that is routinely recommended to new brewers, in the very first chapter, very first recipe, he described using two packages of dry yeast. I doubt anyone follows those instructions.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: skyler on October 08, 2020, 03:47:13 PM
I'd like to see some evidence to support your marketing claim.  Based on the people I know there I find it hard to believe unnless you have info I'm unaware of.

I mean, there's no reasonable way to get real scientific evidence proving that homebrew newbies are idiots, but I have known enough brewers who SWEAR BY single packs of lager yeast for warm-fermented (ambient temperature in California, not controlled 60F) lagers to produce pilsners and Mexican-style pale lagers that I would be surprised if your "average" brewer actually looks and notices the difference in pitching rates. Add the use of the metric system and I think you knock out another 80% who might have some concept of reading the packaging. That said, I greatly appreciate that they make it as clear as they do on the packaging for people who pay attention and actually do understand  the metric system like myself. That is a great first step from Lallemand. The next step would be getting their retailers educated so that they can help educate consumers, IMO.

When I started brewing, White Labs had these posters in every LHBS that listed a bunch of beer styles and then assigned different strains to different styles with a rating. Like WLP001 would get a perfect score for "American Pale Ale," but only a middling score for "American Wheat Beer" and a low score for "Belgian Dubbel." That poster helped me a lot. That's an example of the company helping retailers educate customers. I suspect Lallemand can do something like that.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 08, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
Going back to the original question, New England was a complete nightmare for them, obviously 2-3 years ago Conan was "the" strain that everybody wanted and they must have felt a lot of pressure to get it to market, but it took them a long time - and it also took them a long time between releasing the commercial bricks and the retail packs. And yes, some third parties were breaking bricks down into 25g packs to compensate for the low viability.

They must have been very relieved to find that when the excitement moved from Conan to 1318, that the Verdant strain took so well to drying.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 08, 2020, 08:18:56 PM
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.

A volume of 18.9L is for all intents and purposes 19L when brewing.  We do not need that fine a level of control.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 08, 2020, 08:24:47 PM
They must have been very relieved to find that when the excitement moved from Conan to 1318, that the Verdant strain took so well to drying.

Is the Verdant strain a true top-cropper?  I will probably stop using liquid yeast after one of the dry yeast manufacturers produce a true top-cropping British strain.  I primarily make British-style bitter and pale ale.  My preference is for a strain that I can top crop.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 09, 2020, 12:04:39 AM
While it’s true I did not know 5 gal = 18.9 liters, it took literally 2 seconds to google gal to liters on my phone and poke in 5 in the converter that popped up to get the result. Too easy.

A volume of 18.9L is for all intents and purposes 19L when brewing.  We do not need that fine a level of control.
+1. I would go anywhere between 18.5-19.5g.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 10, 2020, 02:07:47 PM
I mean, there's no reasonable way to get real scientific evidence proving that homebrew newbies are idiots, but I have known enough brewers who SWEAR BY single packs of lager yeast for warm-fermented (ambient temperature in California, not controlled 60F) lagers to produce pilsners and Mexican-style pale lagers that I would be surprised if your "average" brewer actually looks and notices the difference in pitching rates. Add the use of the metric system and I think you knock out another 80% who might have some concept of reading the packaging. That said, I greatly appreciate that they make it as clear as they do on the packaging for people who pay attention and actually do understand  the metric system like myself. That is a great first step from Lallemand. The next step would be getting their retailers educated so that they can help educate consumers, IMO.

If the wort is properly aerated, a single pack of 34/70 pitched at ambient temperature in California should do the trick. The reason why increased pitching rates are suggested for lagers is due to the fact that the replication period is extended significantly at lager temperatures.  It is about ensuring that the culture owns the fermentation, which can be offset by excellent cleaning, sanitization, careful wort handling, and aeration.  For example, I used to pitch 40ml of 1.020 autoclaved (pressure cooked) wort aseptically using a 4mm loop of yeast.  Trust me, that is a minascule amount of yeast.  That culture would be pitched into a 1L SNS starter a couple of days later.  The key here was that I started with absolutely sterile wort with the 40ml inoculation and my 1L starter wort was hot-packed into a 5L borosilicate media bottle.  Initial cell count is not as critical as initial level of sanitization and O2 saturation as long as the culture is within 1 to 2 replication periods of the desired pitching rate (that means 1/4 to 1/2th of the stated pitching rate).  For example, BRY-97 can take forever to start when underpitched, but it starts and produces a good beer if cleaning and sanitization were good.  I would be interesting to see if BRY-97 started faster when underpitched when pitched into well-aerated wort.  Dry yeast can make a brewer lazy in the aeration department because of its reduced dissolved O2 requirements
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: mabrungard on October 10, 2020, 02:24:02 PM

If the wort is properly aerated, a single pack of 34/70 pitched at ambient temperature in California should do the trick. The reason why increased pitching rates are suggested for lagers is due to the fact that the replication period is extended significantly at lager temperatures.  It is about ensuring that the culture owns the fermentation, which can be offset by excellent cleaning, sanitization, careful wort handling, and aeration. 

I agree. When I was researching my article on calcium requirements for yeast, I had Chris White review my paper.  One of the questions that he couldn't answer was: 'Why is the pitching rate for lagers greater than for ales?' He did not know of a reason, but I ultimately came to the conclusion above. Lower replication rate at lower temperature demands more cells to ensure other organisms don't gain a significant foothold in the beer. 

While you may not want to ferment a lager at ale temperature due to the potential production of undesirable by-products, it's OK to ferment a lager at lager temperature with a low cell count as long as your sanitation is very good.
Title: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: BrewBama on October 10, 2020, 02:37:46 PM
... I would be interesting to see if BRY-97 started faster when underpitched when pitched into well-aerated wort.  Dry yeast can make a brewer lazy in the aeration department because of its reduced dissolved O2 requirements

I can add anecdotal evidence to aerated vs non aerated wort if underpitching Bry-97:  when I first began trying to make Bry-97 start faster I first tried aeration with the ‘one pack in a batch’ method. I’ve personally experienced 36 hr long lag times. 

So, I went down and bought the O2 bottle and regulator. I didn’t notice a discernible difference. I still saw long lag times.  Frankly, I don’t remember if they were less than 36 hrs or not but I recall be frustrated.

After a conversation with a company rep and fellow brewers, what ended up working for me was pitching to the mfr recommended weight per SG and volume coupled with their method of pitching while filling and pitching yeast nutrient along with the yeast.

Using this method I get remarkable 16 hr +/-2 hr lag consistency. I don’t even know where the O2 bottle is anymore.


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Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: denny on October 10, 2020, 03:07:27 PM
Since BRY 97 has come up, I thought I'd relate my latest experience.  Split a 12 gal. batch of IPA into 2 fermenters.  Sprinkled a pack of BRY on top of each at 63F.  I had active fermentation in 18 hours.  No aeration, no rehydration.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Pitching Rates for Newer Strains
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 14, 2020, 09:11:34 AM
Is the Verdant strain a true top-cropper?  I will probably stop using liquid yeast after one of the dry yeast manufacturers produce a true top-cropping British strain.  I primarily make British-style bitter and pale ale.  My preference is for a strain that I can top crop.

@Saccharomyces I've not used it myself (too many strains, not enough brewing time...) but by all accounts it top-crops well (but enough drops out that you can bottom crop it in conicals). On the other hand, assuming it's a derivative of 1318 (all they'll say officially is that they used to use "a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank" before selecting a single strain that became their house strain) then it's a Beer1 yeast which explains why it's a bit cleaner than the true square yeasts which all seem to be Beer2 saison types.

I don't think people who only know the Wyeast/White Labs catalogues, realise just how many British yeasts are POF+ - mebbe half the Brewlab strains are phenolic to some extent. And that may well be part of the reason for the high aeration in squares, just to damp down those phenolics a bit. You may have to look for it, but there's definitely a subtle phenolic note in eg Harveys and Sam Smiths on cask.