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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Wilbur on October 05, 2020, 04:39:44 PM

Title: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Wilbur on October 05, 2020, 04:39:44 PM
Any experience with this yeast? Any preferences?
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Bob357 on October 05, 2020, 05:52:45 PM
Just ordered a packet. After watching David Heath's review on youtube decided it was worth a try.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: skyler on October 06, 2020, 03:02:27 PM
I was planning on trying it out soon. I know it is meant for hazies, but the "vanilla" flavor described sounds more like it would be nice in a dark beer. Since I love me some London III in a brown ale or porter, anyway, I thought I might do a nice American Brown Ale and then use some of the slurry for a Hazy IPA since I haven't made one in a while and I need to prove my street cred to my next door neighbors.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: BrewBama on October 10, 2020, 03:56:13 PM
https://youtu.be/Wre4XX7cFko


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on October 10, 2020, 04:53:02 PM
I was planning on trying it out soon. I know it is meant for hazies, but the "vanilla" flavor described sounds more like it would be nice in a dark beer. Since I love me some London III in a brown ale or porter, anyway, I thought I might do a nice American Brown Ale and then use some of the slurry for a Hazy IPA since I haven't made one in a while and I need to prove my street cred to my next door neighbors.
Where did you see vanilla?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201010/5867daa144c4b163ab8f00c8ea70c6d6.jpg)
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Mardoo on October 11, 2020, 04:08:21 AM
We’ve used it on a few brews. It’s a beast. 80%+ attenuation (88% on one). It will chew through most of the sugars in a couple days. It generates very clear stonefruit flavours and works well with early and late dry hopping. It seems to leave more bitterness than some yeasts, so especially for NEIPA’s consider dialling back your IBU’s a tad.

It’s quickly becoming a favourite. We’ve used it on IPA’s and NEIPA’s, and are just about to use it on a stout. I have no hesitation recommending it for those who want background stone fruit flavours in their beer. I’m unsure whether it would play well with strong roast flavours, but it does play well with lighter roasts.

We’re guessing Belgian heritage for it, as it throws some solid bubblegum during ferment, but that doesn’t really stay around. I prefer it with ferments around 18C, but we’ve also pushed it as high as 24C with no apparent ill effect, although plan on keeping it lower in general.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 14, 2020, 09:39:45 AM
We’re guessing Belgian heritage for it, as it throws some solid bubblegum during ferment, but that doesn’t really stay around. I prefer it with ferments around 18C, but we’ve also pushed it as high as 24C with no apparent ill effect, although plan on keeping it lower in general.

Why do people assume that only Belgian yeasts have interesting flavours? There's a huge diversity in British brewing yeasts, from the subtle phenolics in most Yorkshire yeasts, to the pure banana of Hanlon's. Lost & Grounded have sold saisons that use WLP037 Yorkshire Square...

Verdant admit to having used "a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank" when they started but then used a single strain selected from that as their house strain and the general consensus is that the Lallemand product is a descendant of that 1318-like yeast.

They use a pretty traditional British fermentation profile - pitch at 18C, hold at 19C, then with 10 points to go let it free rise to 22C and hold until it passes a VDK test (it does produce a bit of diacetyl but cleans it up), and then cool to 15C for dry hopping.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Mardoo on October 14, 2020, 10:19:15 AM
Wow. OK. Gettin’ a bit shirty there mate.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 15, 2020, 10:25:12 AM
No shirtiness intended, just pointing out that one of the accepted wisdoms of US homebrewing isn't actually true. Getting closer to the truth is good, right?
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Cliffs on October 15, 2020, 04:59:52 PM
We’ve used it on a few brews. It’s a beast. 80%+ attenuation (88% on one). It will chew through most of the sugars in a couple days. It generates very clear stonefruit flavours and works well with early and late dry hopping. It seems to leave more bitterness than some yeasts, so especially for NEIPA’s consider dialling back your IBU’s a tad.

It’s quickly becoming a favourite. We’ve used it on IPA’s and NEIPA’s, and are just about to use it on a stout. I have no hesitation recommending it for those who want background stone fruit flavours in their beer. I’m unsure whether it would play well with strong roast flavours, but it does play well with lighter roasts.

We’re guessing Belgian heritage for it, as it throws some solid bubblegum during ferment, but that doesn’t really stay around. I prefer it with ferments around 18C, but we’ve also pushed it as high as 24C with no apparent ill effect, although plan on keeping it lower in general.

I believe it is an isolate from a serially repitched london III culture.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 16, 2020, 11:34:01 PM
I believe it is an isolate from a serially repitched london III culture.

Yes, but London III is a British yeast.  We just co-opted it.  I emphasized the overuse of temperature control in American amateur brewing circles in my blog entry entitled "Have You Seen Ester?" (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester).  I brought up the issue of picking the yeast culture for the job at hand instead of attempting to trick a selected yeast culture into doing the job at hand.  Temperature control has become a substitute for understanding culture differences in American brewing circles. The time for that nonsense has come and gone.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 18, 2020, 02:54:45 PM
Why do people assume that only Belgian yeasts have interesting flavours? There's a huge diversity in British brewing yeasts, from the subtle phenolics in most Yorkshire yeasts, to the pure banana of Hanlon's. Lost & Grounded have sold saisons that use WLP037 Yorkshire Square...

I will second that assertion.  Back when I was posting on this forum as S. Cerevisiae, I was posting on a British forum called Jim's Beer Kit as YeastWhisperer.  Those guys turned me on to the cultures from a British brewing organization called Brewlab.  I scoured the list for interesting cultures that I was fairly certain were not available in the US and placed an order.  First off, Brewlab slants were ginormous compared to what I was used to using for my own bank.  Secondly, they opened my eyes to the diversity of brewers yeast in England.  For example, I was literally shocked when I used Devon 1.  I had never dealt with a British yeast strain that was as POF+ as that strain.  I did not know what to make of it.  I thought that my culture may have gotten contaminated on the trip across the pond, so I took the slant that I subcultured from the Brewlab slant plated it for singles, selected several colonies that I transferred to different slants, grew each isolate up, and they were all POF+.  Sussex 1 was also POF+. 
 
Quote
Verdant admit to having used "a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank" when they started but then used a single strain selected from that as their house strain and the general consensus is that the Lallemand product is a descendant of that 1318-like yeast.

I am fairly certain that London Ale III is a single cell isolate.  Does the Verdant sub-isolate floc to the top like London Ale III?

Quote
They use a pretty traditional British fermentation profile - pitch at 18C, hold at 19C, then with 10 points to go let it free rise to 22C and hold until it passes a VDK test (it does produce a bit of diacetyl but cleans it up), and then cool to 15C for dry hopping.

I used to routinely pitch at 65F (a little more than 18C) and allow my ales to rise to 72F (22C) when I fermented in the basement of the home in which I lived for most of the first 11 years that I brewed.  I took a hiatus and when I came back two things were dominant in American amateur brewing; namely, the use of refrigeration to keep ale fermentation temperature on the low to mid-side of the 60s and the use of stir plates.  I have created blog entries dispelling amateur-brewer created myth in both areas.  I think that what happened while I was away was a big shift toward squeaky clean ale fermentation, which created the heavy use of temperature control to slow replication during the exponential growth stage, which, in turn, reduced growth-related ester and diketone compounds. To me, it felt like American brewers were strangling the life force out of many British cultures. That is why I emphasized that brewers should pick the culture for the job at hand instead of attempting to trick a culture into doing the job at hand. 

What got me interested in learning how to brew was the beer produced by a microbrewery called Wild Goose in Cambridge, Maryland. That brewery soon had company from two other Alan Pugsley installed breweries; namely, the Wharf Rat in Baltimore and Arrowhead just over the border in Pennsylvania. All of the breweries were Peter Austin and Partners systems modeled after Peter's Ringwood Brewery.  A lot of early amateur brewers on the East Coast were influenced by Alan's Pugsley's work because he built breweries up and down the East Coast, not the least of which was Geary.  Beer produced in open fermentation vessels with a multi-strain yeast culture like true Ringwood have a very different flavor profile than the typical West Coast squeaky clean ale.  True Ringwood can be a cruel mistress if one is not experienced with multi-strain Yorkshire cultures. 

I have a question; namely, what is the average ground water temperature in England?  Does it remain under 18C year round? You guys are above the 50th parallel.  If the Gulf Stream did not exist, you would experience much colder temperatures.

In the end, I am not attempting to disrespect what American amateur and professional craft brewers have managed to do in just a few decades. However, the trend I am seeing is very one-dimensional.   I was in a well-stocked beer store on Friday.  There were a lot of different beer styles, but the only beer style in the cooler was a IPA.  That is a dangerous trend if it continues because the large industrial brewers excel at producing one type of beer and they can do it at cost that no craft brewer can match, not even big craft brewers like Sierra Nevada.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Mardoo on October 19, 2020, 04:35:20 AM
No shirtiness intended, just pointing out that one of the accepted wisdoms of US homebrewing isn't actually true. Getting closer to the truth is good, right?
If that’s accepted, that sure ain’t wisdom
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 19, 2020, 11:35:20 AM
I was literally shocked when I used Devon 1.  I had never dealt with a British yeast strain that was as POF+ as that strain....Sussex 1 was also POF+.
 
Devon1 is supposedly from Hanlons. Sussex1 is supposedly from Harvey's. Their current yeast originally came from John Smith's in 1957 (https://www.harveys.org.uk/news/60th-anniversary-harveys-yeast) and a 1981 isolate has been sequenced and is a saison type most closely related to WLP038 Manchester (a rare vault strain which people on HBT seem to like a lot (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wlp-038-manchester-yeast-review.672130/), lockdown has meant my vial has been sat in a fridge a long way away, so I haven't tried it yet). But it does seem to be another example where the "British saisons" can get very phenolic in a closed fermenter, but the aeration they get in the breweries with long experience of using them commercially, largely suppresses the phenolics.

I am fairly certain that London Ale III is a single cell isolate.  Does the Verdant sub-isolate floc to the top like London Ale III?

Oh, I'm sure it was a single-cfu isolate originally, but that doesn't mean that a homogenous pitch reaches the brewer. Per Verdant (https://verdantbrewing.co/blogs/news/verdant-diastaticus-being-open-about-it-all) :
"We originally used a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank, but after conducting tests we found that it had other strains in the sample that definitely weren’t helpful for the juicy IPAs we tend to make. Our current supplier offered to isolate the London Ale III yeast and propagate it for us, which went extremely well for many batches"

My impression was that in the mid-teens at least, the pitches that reached brewers were generally not as pure as people might think. Chris Giles from Surebrew has found several flocc variants in US-05 (http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2014/10/are-dried-yeast-what-they-claim-to-be.html) (and he may well have been working with Verdant, they're one of the main suppliers of yeast to small breweries here) and a number of people found a lot of pastorianus-like yeast in Nottingham (http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-truth-about-nottingham-ale-yeast.html). I suspect that the Left Hand lawsuit over contaminated WLP090 in 2017 was just the tip of an iceberg, and that there's been quite a lot of work on QA quietly going on in the background since then. Just in the last few weeks, there's been a couple of people on HBT complaining about phenolics from Lallemand kolsch (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/new-lallemand-yeasts-new-england-and-kolsch.670132/page-2#post-8983090) - you obviously never know from a forum thread whether that's just a brewhouse contamination, but it seems to be too widespread for that.

I have a question; namely, what is the average ground water temperature in England?  Does it remain under 18C year round? You guys are above the 50th parallel.  If the Gulf Stream did not exist, you would experience much colder temperatures.

It is probably sufficient to say that it's not something we ever worry about - the heat pump people here work on the assumption of 10C at 6m depth year-round. The fact that we're an island also helps - London may be north of Calgary but even without the Gulf Stream, we'd be more like Vancouver Island than the Rockies.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 20, 2020, 10:49:06 PM

I am fairly certain that London Ale III is a single cell isolate.  Does the Verdant sub-isolate floc to the top like London Ale III?

Oh, I'm sure it was a single-cfu isolate originally, but that doesn't mean that a homogenous pitch reaches the brewer. Per Verdant (https://verdantbrewing.co/blogs/news/verdant-diastaticus-being-open-about-it-all) :
"We originally used a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank, but after conducting tests we found that it had other strains in the sample that definitely weren’t helpful for the juicy IPAs we tend to make. Our current supplier offered to isolate the London Ale III yeast and propagate it for us, which went extremely well for many batches"

My impression was that in the mid-teens at least, the pitches that reached brewers were generally not as pure as people might think. Chris Giles from Surebrew has found several flocc variants in US-05 (http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2014/10/are-dried-yeast-what-they-claim-to-be.html) (and he may well have been working with Verdant, they're one of the main suppliers of yeast to small breweries here)

That does not take a rocket scientist to understand.  Of course, one is going to experience variants in dry yeast. When one starts with a single cell and grows it to tons of yeast, we are talking about a lot of generations.  The parent of US-05 and Chico; namely, Siebel BRY-96 is notorious for genetic drift.  There is a research project going on at the University of Washington that is studying genetic drift of this culture in breweries. The number of generations that occur when propagating below the Crabtree threshold in a bioreacter at industrial scale is like serially repitching the same culture a hundred, if not hundreds of times. To believe that a culture will not develop SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) or a chromosomal translocation or two is not being realistic.  Tobias Fischborn, a senior research scientist at Lallemand, has confirmed that BRY-97 is an isolate of BRY-96 with better flocculation characteristics from a brewery that started with BRY-96.  In this case, whatever mutations occurred from selective pressure being placed on the culture were positive from a flocculation point of view.

Quote
It is probably sufficient to say that it's not something we ever worry about - the heat pump people here work on the assumption of 10C at 6m depth year-round. The fact that we're an island also helps - London may be north of Calgary but even without the Gulf Stream, we'd be more like Vancouver Island than the Rockies.

For me, it was more about the ability to pipe ground water through piping within a fermentation vessel to chill it instead of having to rely on glycol chillers.  The British brewer who helped build the British Brewing Company in Glen Burnie, Maryland in 1988; namely Steve Parks, was not prepared for the temperatures he was going to have deal with in the brewery.  He was not used to brewing in such a hazy, hot, and humid place when summer came around.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: narvin on October 21, 2020, 12:06:39 AM
Not everywhere is as cool as foggy londontown.  If your house is in the low 70s, it's too warm for most of the strains the average homebrewer uses.  YMMV, use your own judgement, etc.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: skyler on October 21, 2020, 09:27:29 PM
I was planning on trying it out soon. I know it is meant for hazies, but the "vanilla" flavor described sounds more like it would be nice in a dark beer. Since I love me some London III in a brown ale or porter, anyway, I thought I might do a nice American Brown Ale and then use some of the slurry for a Hazy IPA since I haven't made one in a while and I need to prove my street cred to my next door neighbors.
Where did you see vanilla?

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201010/5867daa144c4b163ab8f00c8ea70c6d6.jpg)

Here: https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/news/new-product-announcement-lalbrew-verdant-ipa/ (https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/news/new-product-announcement-lalbrew-verdant-ipa/)
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: clibit on October 23, 2020, 05:40:36 AM
I am fairly certain that London Ale III is a single cell isolate.  Does the Verdant sub-isolate floc to the top like London Ale III?
Yes, very much so, great top cropper. And I'm pouring super bright beer from my bottles. An English bitter, cos I'm English. The beer has a very smooth, rounded quality, good malt expression. I have two other beers awaiting packaging that used repitched, top cropped Verdant, I make mini batches. A porter, and a pale ale hopped with Riwaka and Centennial.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Northern_Brewer on October 23, 2020, 02:34:43 PM
There's a picture of it here : https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/verdant-ipa-yeast.90467/#post-962893
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: duelerx on October 23, 2020, 04:22:23 PM
I was literally shocked when I used Devon 1.  I had never dealt with a British yeast strain that was as POF+ as that strain....Sussex 1 was also POF+.
 
Devon1 is supposedly from Hanlons. Sussex1 is supposedly from Harvey's. Their current yeast originally came from John Smith's in 1957 (https://www.harveys.org.uk/news/60th-anniversary-harveys-yeast) and a 1981 isolate has been sequenced and is a saison type most closely related to WLP038 Manchester (a rare vault strain which people on HBT seem to like a lot (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wlp-038-manchester-yeast-review.672130/), lockdown has meant my vial has been sat in a fridge a long way away, so I haven't tried it yet). But it does seem to be another example where the "British saisons" can get very phenolic in a closed fermenter, but the aeration they get in the breweries with long experience of using them commercially, largely suppresses the phenolics.

I am fairly certain that London Ale III is a single cell isolate.  Does the Verdant sub-isolate floc to the top like London Ale III?

Oh, I'm sure it was a single-cfu isolate originally, but that doesn't mean that a homogenous pitch reaches the brewer. Per Verdant (https://verdantbrewing.co/blogs/news/verdant-diastaticus-being-open-about-it-all) :
"We originally used a generic London Ale III yeast from a bigger yeast bank, but after conducting tests we found that it had other strains in the sample that definitely weren’t helpful for the juicy IPAs we tend to make. Our current supplier offered to isolate the London Ale III yeast and propagate it for us, which went extremely well for many batches"

My impression was that in the mid-teens at least, the pitches that reached brewers were generally not as pure as people might think. Chris Giles from Surebrew has found several flocc variants in US-05 (http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2014/10/are-dried-yeast-what-they-claim-to-be.html) (and he may well have been working with Verdant, they're one of the main suppliers of yeast to small breweries here) and a number of people found a lot of pastorianus-like yeast in Nottingham (http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2014/11/the-truth-about-nottingham-ale-yeast.html). I suspect that the Left Hand lawsuit over contaminated WLP090 in 2017 was just the tip of an iceberg, and that there's been quite a lot of work on QA quietly going on in the background since then. Just in the last few weeks, there's been a couple of people on HBT complaining about phenolics from Lallemand kolsch (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/new-lallemand-yeasts-new-england-and-kolsch.670132/page-2#post-8983090) - you obviously never know from a forum thread whether that's just a brewhouse contamination, but it seems to be too widespread for that.

I have a question; namely, what is the average ground water temperature in England?  Does it remain under 18C year round? You guys are above the 50th parallel.  If the Gulf Stream did not exist, you would experience much colder temperatures.

It is probably sufficient to say that it's not something we ever worry about - the heat pump people here work on the assumption of 10C at 6m depth year-round. The fact that we're an island also helps - London may be north of Calgary but even without the Gulf Stream, we'd be more like Vancouver Island than the Rockies.

I love British malts and love Saison strains, a British Saison beer sounds like a winner to me.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 23, 2020, 11:43:06 PM
Yes, very much so, great top cropper. And I'm pouring super bright beer from my bottles. An English bitter, cos I'm English. The beer has a very smooth, rounded quality, good malt expression. I have two other beers awaiting packaging that used repitched, top cropped Verdant, I make mini batches. A porter, and a pale ale hopped with Riwaka and Centennial.

That is what I wanted to hear.  I ordered some of this yeast today.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 24, 2020, 12:37:05 PM
There's a picture of it here : https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/verdant-ipa-yeast.90467/#post-962893

That is not what I think of when I think top-cropper.   Does it produce a head like this culture?

(https://i.imgur.com/4CGWRrT.jpg)

That is NCYC 1333. I acquired the culture on slant directly from the NCYC (yes, it was expensive.)  It is a Yorkshire culture, most likely John or Sam Smith, but it could be Tetley's.

(https://i.imgur.com/1KoqKKS.jpg)

Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: clibit on October 24, 2020, 05:52:45 PM
I ferment in buckets and the krausen does look like that from the top, Sacc.

The bitter I made has turned out fruitier than I expected. The Endeavour and Brewer's Gold hpps provided a lot of dark fruit and the yeast seems to have added stone fruit. I will factor that into future brews.

Attenuation was 74%, yeast from the packet.

I bottled a porter today, tasted promising, 75%, re-pitch with top cropped yeast.

And I bottled an APA today, also good, 75%, re-pitch with top cropped yeast.

I've another bitter to bottle, not taken a reading yet. Just trying to get a handle on this yeast. It is great to work with, I just hope it makes beer I really like in the styles I like the most. The two beers bottled today seem good, and the second bitter too. The first bitter is very smooth and rounded, even in its infancy, just overly fruity for me. Early days, but Verdant IPA a far cry from dried yeast of old, in performance and flavour, from my initial impressions. It may end up being used more for English styles that NEIPAs, possibly? Back to its roots. Looking forward to hearing other opinions.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 25, 2020, 11:49:33 AM
If you keep repitching the culture, it will adapt to your brewery and the way you crop. The beauty of top-cropping is that the yeast is healthier and one does not have to deal with break or any hop material that made its way into the fermentation vessel. Another interesting tidbit is that top-cropped yeast has a lower non-brewing yeast microbial load because wild yeast and bacteria do not floc to the top. That is why top-cropped yeast can be repitched so many more times than bottom-cropped yeast.  The important thing to do is skim and discard the brown head and try to take your crop from the second head midway through the fermentation.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: clibit on October 26, 2020, 01:13:10 PM
If you keep repitching the culture, it will adapt to your brewery and the way you crop. The beauty of top-cropping is that the yeast is healthier and one does not have to deal with break or any hop material that made its way into the fermentation vessel. Another interesting tidbit is that top-cropped yeast has a lower non-brewing yeast microbial load because wild yeast and bacteria do not floc to the top. That is why top-cropped yeast can be repitched so many more times than bottom-cropped yeast.  The important thing to do is skim and discard the brown head and try to take your crop from the second head midway through the fermentation.

That is my way of doing things. If the Verdant makes beers that I like I will use it regularly and crop in this way.

We once discussed the 1318 strain on Jim's and you defended the MrMalty brewery source list. 1318 has been placed in the Whitbread group of strains by DNA sequencing, and Whitbread bought the Boddingtons brewery in 1987. Did the original sample pre-date this, or not, do you know? Perhaps it's a replacement strain from Whitbread, the original Bodds culture was apparently replaced in the 80s.

The DNA work is casting some doubt on some of the Mr Malty sources I think? 1028 and 013, for example, not close. 013 is instead close to 006. 1728 and 028 are distanced too. 1275 and 023, allegedly both Brakspear, but very different. I gave up trusting any of the info ages ago tbh, and the testing programme seems to justify that decision, but I'm sure the list wasn't all wrong. That said, 1968 and 002 are grouped together on the latest Suregork chart, and weren't on the previous one. So maybe the testing isn't quite the exact science I thought it was, or the interpretation at least.

The names are odd though, Bodds being called London for example. 1275/023 called Burton and Thames Valley. Who did the geography?
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 28, 2020, 12:09:24 AM
The DNA work is casting some doubt on some of the Mr Malty sources I think?

Or could it be that breweries routinely exchanged yeast cultures leading to mixed genetic admixture? We are dealing with cultures in hindsight. How many mixed cultures ended up being plated to a single isolate? I am one of the early brewers who plated Ringwood. I did not know that it was a multi-strain culture when I plated it. However, I transferred multiple well isolated colonies to different slants. The result was hit or miss brewing.  I eventually grew tired of brewing question marks, so I discarded all of the slants I made from that culture. Are the strains in banks from the claimed breweries, I believe so. However, what is left to ponder is are the available cultures representative of the original?  That is up to the user to ascertain. Any culture that is serially repitched over time is going to end up with variants. How those variants factor into the final equation is brewery dependent.  It is what we think of when we think house flavor.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: clibit on October 28, 2020, 09:24:47 AM
Thanks for the response and yes, it's obviously a complicated scenario. It's impossible to unpick the past movement of strains. I'm sure the selection of different strains from multi-strain originals is a factor. Why would they call a Boddington's strain London Ale though? How could that come about? And, if 1275 and 023 both came from a Brakspear's beer, why would one be called Burton and the other Thames Valley?
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 31, 2020, 10:45:22 PM
Whitbread appears to have had a large culture collection at one point.  There are number of Whitbread Cultures that came from from other breweries.  Charrington is a good example.  Whitbread SC16 is a single-cell isolate of Charrington's yeast culture.

    NCYC 241
 
    Information        Single colony culture of Charrington's brewery yeast (Whitbread's SC16).
    Depositor            B.M. Brown
    Deposit Name      Saccharomyces cerevisiae
    Month of deposit  June
    Deposit Year        1951
    Habitat                Ale production yeast
 
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: BeerfanOz on November 03, 2020, 04:07:00 AM
First batch with this yeast, a bitter, is now in secondary and tastes great. Definitely a top cropping yeast haha. Dumped a Columbus pale ale on 1/3 of the cake and it’s fermenting a few hours later and has a massive Krausen. Very impressed for a dry yeast, in terms of yeast character. Can’t wait to taste, probably put the bitter through my nitro tap
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: clibit on November 05, 2020, 11:21:47 AM
I've now tasted 3 beers with this yeast after 2 to 4 weeks in the bottle and they are all really good. A London porter, an English bitter and a dry hopped pale ale with Riwaka and Centennial. Really happy with all three. Could be a house yeast if you are that way inclined, methinks.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Cliffs on November 05, 2020, 05:00:44 PM

[/quote]

I love British malts and love Saison strains, a British Saison beer sounds like a winner to me.
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I like both of those too, but pils character is a must in a saison for me
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Joe_Beer on November 13, 2020, 12:36:34 PM
We’ve used it on a few brews. It’s a beast. 80%+ attenuation (88% on one). It will chew through most of the sugars in a couple days. It generates very clear stonefruit flavours and works well with early and late dry hopping.

Glad to read this. I pitched on a Sunday and by Tuesday I was assuming leaks my fermenter bucket.  All activity had stopped. Gravity reading went from (Brix) 16.0 to 9.5 and hasn't dropped any more since. I was not expecting things to finish this quickly.  It does have a very pleasant, slighly fruity aroma unlike the US-05 or Lutra I've been using.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 17, 2020, 08:00:25 PM
Glad to read this. I pitched on a Sunday and by Tuesday I was assuming leaks my fermenter bucket.  All activity had stopped. Gravity reading went from (Brix) 16.0 to 9.5 and hasn't dropped any more since. I was not expecting things to finish this quickly.  It does have a very pleasant, slighly fruity aroma unlike the US-05 or Lutra I've been using.

You beer is not finished, that is, unless you produced a highly unfermentable wort.  How much yeast did you pitch?  Did you aerate?
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Joe_Beer on November 17, 2020, 10:33:39 PM
You beer is not finished, that is, unless you produced a highly unfermentable wort.  How much yeast did you pitch?  Did you aerate?

I think you might be right about the wort. I mashed in at 162F and the Foundry just doesn't loose that much heat to the grain bill (only my second AG batch). I pitched the whole packet of Verdant and aerated the way I normally do; just dropping it out of the spigot from about 18" into the bucket. Next batch I'm going to mash in at 140F and step it up to 152F.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: erockrph on November 17, 2020, 10:56:21 PM
You beer is not finished, that is, unless you produced a highly unfermentable wort.  How much yeast did you pitch?  Did you aerate?

I think you might be right about the wort. I mashed in at 162F and the Foundry just doesn't loose that much heat to the grain bill (only my second AG batch). I pitched the whole packet of Verdant and aerated the way I normally do; just dropping it out of the spigot from about 18" into the bucket. Next batch I'm going to mash in at 140F and step it up to 152F.
Did you confirm the temperature with a second thermometer after mashing in? I am finding that the Anvil isn't terribly accurate. Mine runs low at mash temps and runs high at pitching temps

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Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 18, 2020, 12:01:19 AM
I pitched the whole packet of Verdant and aerated the way I normally do; just dropping it out of the spigot from about 18" into the bucket.

That is not proper aeration.  One knows that one has achieved proper aeration when one has to slow cast-out wort from the kettle because there is too much foam in the fermentation vessel.  Please do me a favor and Google "aeration venturi wort".
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Joe_Beer on November 18, 2020, 09:10:33 AM
Did you confirm the temperature with a second thermometer after mashing in? I am finding that the Anvil isn't terribly accurate. Mine runs low at mash temps and runs high at pitching temps

I did the first time I used it (couple months ago). It was within a few degrees.  Seemed reasonable given the Anvil temp probe is on the bottom of the kettle and my second thermometer was at the top where all the heat is coming off. I have noticed boiling starts about 208F though so maybe something is off there.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Joe_Beer on November 18, 2020, 09:32:31 AM
That is not proper aeration.  One knows that one has achieved proper aeration when one has to slow cast-out wort from the kettle because there is too much foam in the fermentation vessel.  Please do me a favor and Google "aeration venturi wort".

Dang.... thanks for the info. You mean like this (scroll down past the pump) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wort-aeration-how-to-build-a-free-pump.678469/? Seems easy enough to do and doesn't require a $15 stone and more tanks (of O2) laying around to fill.

There are so many ways people aerate that I didn't think it was entirely critical. I do end up with a good 6" of foam on top of the wort which seems to work well in the past for US-05 and Kveik but maybe Verdant is a little more inclined towards optimal aeration. I'm going to try your idea on the next batch.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: roger on November 18, 2020, 12:58:34 PM
I'm under the impression that aeration is only needed for liquid yeast (or from starters) or for when repitching. When pitching straight from a dry yeast sachet, no aeration is needed. Is Verdant different in this?

Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 18, 2020, 02:34:21 PM
I'm under the impression that aeration is only needed for liquid yeast (or from starters) or for when repitching. When pitching straight from a dry yeast sachet, no aeration is needed. Is Verdant different in this?

Whether or not one has to aerate with dry yeast appears to be strain and pitch rate dependent.  The newer cultures do not appear to take as well to aerobic propagation in a bioreactor followed by fluidized bed drying as the old standbys.  What we know is that the onset of fermentation can be sluggish and desired final gravity is not a given.  Why are we seeing these differences?  Is it because the newer strains are suffering high cell death? Or is it because the newer strains have higher O2 requirements than the old standbys?  One thing I do know is that dry yeast is almost always underpitched and aeration is critical when underpitching.  If a pack of dry yeast contains 5 billion viable cells per gram, then an 11 gram package of dry yeast contains 55 billion cells.  That is one fourth the pitch rate of a 1L starter pitched at high krausen.  With 55 billion cells, it takes log(3800 / 55) / log(2) = 6.1 replication periods to reach maximum cell density on 19L (5 gallons) of wort.  That is almost two full replication periods longer than a 1L starter. As the dry mother cells will share their ergosterol and unsaturated fatty acid (UFA) reserves with every cell, directly or indirectly, during the growth and stationary phases, having to go two more replication periods to reach maximum cells density places a higher demand on the reserves that were available before the yeast was pitched.  Ergosterol and UFAs keep cell plasma membranes pliable, which allows for the intake of nutrients and expulsion of waste products. 

I willing to bet that aerating wort before pitching the troublesome dry yeast cultures reduces the lag between pitching and active fermentation coupled with improving the strength of the fermentation.  I have never been a big dry yeast user; therefore, this experiment is going to have to wait until my new brew house is up and running. One thing we know is that starting an 11 gram package of dry yeast in 1L of wort followed by pitching the culture into aerated wort results in dry culture behaving like a liquid culture, even the troublesome cultures. Why is that so? It could be that increasing the cell count by almost a factor of four is responsible for the difference, or it could be that the ergosterol and UFA reserves that the cells have coming out of the package are more than enough to rapidly reach maximum cell density in 1L of wort.  These cells then get to go through another lag phase where they shunt O2 and carbon to their aerobic metabolic pathways to recharge their ergosterol and UFA reserves before restarting exponential growth when pitched into a batch or aerated wort.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 18, 2020, 02:57:49 PM
Dang.... thanks for the info. You mean like this (scroll down past the pump) https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/wort-aeration-how-to-build-a-free-pump.678469/? Seems easy enough to do and doesn't require a $15 stone and more tanks (of O2) laying around to fill.

Here is the design I use:

(https://i.imgur.com/iEDSfAQ.jpg)

It is not a traditional venturi design, but it works on the same principle. It is just a piece of racking cane with holes drilled downward at a 45-degree angle.  It is attached to the end of the hose used to cast-out wort from the kettle to a fermentation vessel.  I use a racking cane clip to hold it in place at the top of a glass or plastic carboy, but it can be clipped to the opening of any fermentation vessel. One just needs to make sure that holes are pointed downward in the direction of wort flow.  I usually have to slow the flow of my cast-out wort to prevent the foam head from becoming too large.
Title: Re: Lalbrew Verdant IPA Yeast
Post by: Joe_Beer on November 22, 2020, 05:09:49 PM
Here is the design I use:

Thanks for all the info. Definitely going to work one of these gizmos into the next batch somehow.