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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: roguejim on September 06, 2010, 11:12:44 PM

Title: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: roguejim on September 06, 2010, 11:12:44 PM
I'm trying to get rid of some extra vienna I've had sitting around.  I'm not interested in brewing a vienna lager.

Would vienna in an AIPA be totally out of character?  If not, what percentage range would you consider to be acceptable for a vienna addition?

When I speak of an AIPA, I'm referring to one in the SSOS vein, where BU:GU ratio is out the window.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: brushvalleybrewer on September 06, 2010, 11:23:28 PM
I’ve hear a rumor that Victory Hop Devil is based on a Vienna Lager malt bill (and, yes, I know Denny doesn’t think it’s hoppy enough). I’m drinking one right now, and I don’t think it’s out of character at all. I kind of like it.  ;)
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: blatz on September 06, 2010, 11:25:29 PM
I made an all Vienna IPA last fall that was a huge hit at our Oktoberfest - if you want, I'll dig out the recipe - or I think I've posted in on NB a few times.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on September 07, 2010, 12:08:35 AM
I think using between 5-10% in an AIPA would be entirely appropriate.  I use Munich all the time in my APAs and AIPAs and wouldn't hesitate to substitute Vienna.  Actually, today I brewed an APA with 5% Munich and 5% Vienna!   ;D
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: gordonstrong on September 07, 2010, 01:06:10 AM
I've used anywhere from 10% to 100% Vienna in an IPA.  If you go with all of it, step it and convert low.  It will seem like it has a higher FG than it does because it will be super malty.

Especially if you're making SSOS; then you need all the malt you can get.  I think you should go all in.  That beer can take it.

I also like a 50/50 mix of Vienna and Maris Otter as a base malt in a lot of styles.  It's one of my signature combos.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 07, 2010, 01:53:42 AM
I also like a 50/50 mix of Vienna and Maris Otter as a base malt in a lot of styles.  It's one of my signature combos.
Interesting idea.
Thank you
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: bluesman on September 07, 2010, 02:11:11 AM
I also like a 50/50 mix of Vienna and Maris Otter as a base malt in a lot of styles.  It's one of my signature combos.
Interesting idea.
Thank you

I like it too.   8)

I might have to give that one a good mashing someday.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: roguejim on September 07, 2010, 05:33:59 AM
Great ideas all around.  Glad to know the sky's the limit with vienna in an AIPA, SSOS-style.  Thanks.  I'll be combining Chinook with Columbus and others in this one...
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: richardt on September 07, 2010, 12:13:25 PM
http://www.realbeer.com/hops/sister.html (http://www.realbeer.com/hops/sister.html) 
Is this the recipe for SSOS (Sister Star of the Sun)?
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: gordonstrong on September 07, 2010, 12:54:56 PM
Yes, that's the recipe.  I was advocating swapping the entire malt bill for Vienna.  Same gravity, same hops.

I made a similar version once using three ounces of 16.8% Tomahawk hops for bittering.  It took awhile to come into balance (at least a year) but it was a super-aggressive beer.  Not sure how it fares today with more modern examples.  Geez, that was over 10 years ago.

When the beer was still a bit young, I entered it in a competition in Chicago.  I still admire Steve McKenna for having the balls to write on my scoresheet "your IPA is too bitter."  At that point, it was.  But how many judges would never think it's possible to write that sentence?
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: denny on September 07, 2010, 03:21:24 PM
I’ve hear a rumor that Victory Hop Devil is based on a Vienna Lager malt bill (and, yes, I know Denny doesn’t think it’s hoppy enough). I’m drinking one right now, and I don’t think it’s out of character at all. I kind of like it.  ;)

Although I don't think it's hoppy enough to qualify for the name "Hop Devil", it's a damn fine beer.  Actually, it was my wife who told Bill Kovaleski (sp?) that it wasn't hoppy enough!
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: roguejim on September 07, 2010, 06:07:52 PM
I've used anywhere from 10% to 100% Vienna in an IPA.  If you go with all of it, step it and convert low.  It will seem like it has a higher FG than it does because it will be super malty.

Especially if you're making SSOS; then you need all the malt you can get.  I think you should go all in.  That beer can take it.

I also like a 50/50 mix of Vienna and Maris Otter as a base malt in a lot of styles.  It's one of my signature combos.

What would you suggest for a step mash?  I never do them.
What temp would you convert at, ~148F?
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: denny on September 07, 2010, 06:14:38 PM
I'd go 145 for 30-45 min. and 158 for another 30.

Let's see how close that is to what Gordon suggests....
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: gordonstrong on September 08, 2010, 01:28:43 AM
Close.  I like to do a short rest at 131F when using continental malts, so maybe 10-15 at 131F, then 45 min at 144F, then 10-15 min at 158F, then mashout at 168F.

If you were doing a single rest, 146-148F would be good.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: richardt on September 08, 2010, 04:26:26 AM
If you don't mind, please explain why.  Does Vienna malt require more "conversion?"

It conflicts with the "single infusion mash for highly modified grains" mantra.

Specifically, what are you accomplishing with each temp and duration?

My sincere thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: gordonstrong on September 08, 2010, 10:58:53 AM
What mantra?  Certainly not mine.  You mash to achieve the wort composition you want.  German brewers step mash all the time.

I sometimes use a 131F rest to aid in clarity with continental malts. I'm mashing in the mid-140s to get a fermentable wort, with a short rest at 158F to get a little body.  Mashout for efficiency.

The point is to not have an IPA with a heavy body.  I didn't recommend using sugar so I'm suggesting mashing for fermentability.  Remember the original post; using Vienna in an IPA.  I'm suggesting that the maltiness will make it seem fuller bodied so to mash low to constrain that character.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: blatz on September 08, 2010, 02:27:13 PM
I'm suggesting that the maltiness will make it seem fuller bodied so to mash low to constrain that character.

precisely.  and richardt, if you don't want to do a step mash, i'd recommend 147-8df single infusion for the purpose of maximixing fermentability.  
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: roguejim on September 08, 2010, 07:01:30 PM
If I was to is no more than 50% vienna along with Marris Otter, would you still recommend a step mash?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: gordonstrong on September 08, 2010, 08:16:28 PM
Yes
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: denny on September 09, 2010, 04:57:24 PM
Gordon, are you saying that you recommend a step mash with Vienna in general?  In what circumstances do you recommend step mashes?
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on September 09, 2010, 05:40:20 PM
Not to inundate you with questions, Gordon, but could you describe the benefits of step mashing beyond issues regarding beer clarity?
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: bluesman on September 09, 2010, 09:36:42 PM
Just for kicks... It would be interesting to taste the results of a single infusion mash around 148ish vs.  Gordon's proposed step mash.

Any takers?   ;D
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: denny on September 10, 2010, 04:00:56 PM
I've done it in the past, which is how I began questioning the benefits of a step mash.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on September 10, 2010, 09:58:14 PM
I do not know.
I am a believer of step mashes and decoctions.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: denny on September 10, 2010, 10:15:53 PM
I do not know.
I am a believer of step mashes and decoctions.


If you believe they work, you should do them.  I've been unable to convince myself.
Title: Re: Extra Vienna...Uses? AIPA?
Post by: gimmeales on September 13, 2010, 08:50:13 PM
I'll just throw another 'pro' to the Vienna-in-IPA category.  I did a 60/40, 2-Row/Vienna IPA last summer that was awesome - need to do that one again actually.

I do remember the boil looking like egg-drop soup from what I'm guessing were the proteins from the Vienna, so I just might try a step-mash next time.  Even using US-O5, my beer ended up clear after 2-3 weeks in the keg, but couldn't hurt to get more of the proteins out early.